My opinion on what a Dream is

[Alakazam]

Mate, most people here welcome the idea that there is a non-physical world and that we interact with it in various ways, be it through intuition, through dreams, through astral projections, etc.

Yes, I know.

Some people aren't so receptive to such idea, and try to look for some hard evidence before directing more efforts and time into it.

That's me.

The basic premise that keeps this belief going on is the following: no one can say the non-physical doesn't exist. It's not proven it exists, however

Exactly. I don't believe in it because it hasn't been proven to exist.

so the main difference between believers and non-believers is how much energy one is willing to direct into this investigation.

I don't think so. The difference, to me, appears to be more along the lines of what one considers to be evidence. You consider your personal experiences to be evidence of it (I assume that you do, anyway - it wouldn't make much sense if you didn't). I don't consider personal experiences to be much evidence of anything, on account of them being notoriously unreliable.

Each one has different experiences, and it is the sharing of these experiences that helps us understand the whole picture, little by little.

But this assumes that there is a whole picture to understand. This, to me, is an unwarranted leap; you can't say that you are gaining understanding of the "whole picture" until you prove that the data you are gathering is anything more than a dream.

This discussion doesn't go too far, it usually isn't very productive, but we welcome anyone who's willing to have a decent conversation on the topic. I say that because this thread was meant for the discussion of dreams. If you want to, we can all gather in another topic and talk about that later on.

I agree, but it wasn't me that took the conversation in this direction. Xander asked me what my experiences were, and why I don't believe. I'm fine with splitting it to another thread if that's what the rest of you think should happen, but since it's Xander's topic split in Xander's thread, I think it's his decision.

[Xanth]

Exactly. I don't believe in it because it hasn't been proven to exist.

And your goal in "discussing" it is what then?
Because there is a very strong chance that this stuff will NEVER be proven.

You might be better coming back when the day comes that science says "hey, this stuff is real" or "hey, this stuff isn't real".

I don't think so. The difference, to me, appears to be more along the lines of what one considers to be evidence. You consider your personal experiences to be evidence of it (I assume that you do, anyway - it wouldn't make much sense if you didn't). I don't consider personal experiences to be much evidence of anything, on account of them being notoriously unreliable.

Fair enough.  However, you do understand that is YOUR problem and not ours, right?  

But this assumes that there is a whole picture to understand. This, to me, is an unwarranted leap; you can't say that you are gaining understanding of the "whole picture" until you prove that the data you are gathering is anything more than a dream.

Again, you not being able to understand (or attempt to understand) what that "whole picture" might be isn't our problem.

See, the problem is that you're going to face this kind of understanding anytime you try to question what we're experiencing here.
It's a kind of understanding which you're just always going to be in firm disagreement with.

There's really no "discussion" to be had here.  You either believe that Astral Projection is possible and you're here to learn about how to do it... or you don't believe it's possible BUT you want to try to experience it... OR you're you.  

And I guess you're referring to me when you say "Xander"?
It's Xanth... or more to the point, you may call me Ryan.

[Naykid]

[Alakazam]

And your goal in "discussing" it is what then?
Because there is a very strong chance that this stuff will NEVER be proven.

As I said, I'm here because I find this stuff very interesting, both on a personal level and because it provides great inspiration for the games that I make. I don't care if it's ever proven. I'm just here to observe. I ask questions because I want to know the answer so that I can know exactly what it is that you believe. The more I know, the better I can adapt it to my games.

My experiences in discussing the paranormal before now were mostly in the area of ghosts and psychic powers and spiritual healing, not dreams, so this is almost an entirely new area for me. That's why I'm asking so many questions.

You might be better coming back when the day comes that science says "hey, this stuff is real" or "hey, this stuff isn't real".

Except that that's not what I'm here to talk about. I just want to know what you believe. I'm not here to disprove anything.

Fair enough.  However, you do understand that is YOUR problem and not ours, right?  

Yes. Again, I'm not here to disprove anything. I'm just responding to what was asked of me.

Again, you not being able to understand (or attempt to understand) what that "whole picture" might be isn't our problem.

I didn't say that it was.

See, the problem is that you're going to face this kind of understanding anytime you try to question what we're experiencing here.
It's a kind of understanding which you're just always going to be in firm disagreement with.

There's really no "discussion" to be had here.  You either believe that Astral Projection is possible and you're here to learn about how to do it... or you don't believe it's possible BUT you want to try to experience it... OR you're you.  

Yep. Here, "me" means "you don't believe it's possible, but you'd like to learn what other people believe about it anyway".

I think that the fact that I don't believe is causing conflict where I'm not trying to make any. I'm just here to observe, not to debunk. I asked why you believed this stuff about dreams because I'm trying to build a coherent picture of what it is that you believe, not because I'm trying to disprove it.

And I guess you're referring to me when you say "Xander"?
It's Xanth... or more to the point, you may call me Ryan.

Yeah, sorry. I got you mixed up with someone on another forum. Xanth... Zander... I got mixed up.

[Capt. Picard]

I base my "belief" off of a specific philosophical point. That your reality is whatever you are experiencing. When you are councious in a "dream" that is your reality. In the same way that other people's perceptions of physical reality are different, does that mean that some of those people aren't experiencing reality period? Reality is shaped by the perceiver, even wave particle dualty supports this, we just apply that same philosophy to our OBE's, as we are indeed councious and interacting with the "dream" environment. Anyways, I just want to ask, if different people within physical reality have different views of this reality, and wave-particle duality can be observed combined with quantum theories that state atoms may be created by the collapse of probability waves (both meaning the physical universe is not as solid as you think), is it that far of a leap to for us to assume that when OBE we are experiencing what we appear to be? That is, percieving a reality. Im by no means saying the nonphysical reality is proven to exist, but when we cant prove it real or fake, but we can experience it as traversable and interactive reality, why should we have to choose disbelief over belief?

[CFTraveler]

why should we have to choose disbelief over belief?

Exactly.  What would it serve us?

[roomsearching]

According to Robert Bruce, Dreams happen while we are still inside our physical body.
RTZ, Astral and other realms happen outside our physical body.
So a lucid dream is not the same as astral.

[Xanth]

According to Robert Bruce, Dreams happen while we are still inside our physical body.
RTZ, Astral and other realms happen outside our physical body.
So a lucid dream is not the same as astral.

And that is definitely one of many opinions. 

[Capt. Picard]

I disagree, dreams and astral projections are way too similar of environments in my opinion to put such a drastic seperation between them, and lucid dreams and projections are pretty much exactly the same depending on how councious you are at the time. Even RTZ I often wonder if it deserves to be seperate from the astral, but it does seem more dense and unlively then the astral so I can see why a distinction is made there.

[Naykid]

Yeah, I'm not quite ready to define exactly what a dream is and I'm OK with that.