Raduga's Phase is LD-ing, not OBE!

[Summerlander]

The point here is *YOU CAN'T EVER KNOW*.

You're asking for a definable TRUTH... a 100% guaranteed TRUTH.

I'm sorry Pauli, but if you're looking for something absolutely concrete, I HIGHLY SUGGEST you stop learning to astral project and take up knitting.

 

Look, Pauli2, you are free to believe in whatever you want, but, just don't let your beliefs blind you and be willing to consider other possibilities. You may find yourself more at easy as you are not clinging so much to a view mainly for comfort. Remember the proverbial Indian story about the blind men and an elephant? It's a bit like that...

[Summerlander]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discussing you in particular. This goes for everybody out there. There have been a lot of arguments lately. People have different versions of looking at the truth. If you want to believe that OOBEs and lucid dreams are different, so be it (to keep it to the topic).

If you want to believe that Raduga's techniques induce lucid dreams only, go for it, but remember that Monroe describes a similar technique - and even mentions a nap/sleep as a primer - in his first book. Do you consider Monroe's experiences to have just been lucid dreams from his first book? Because that is pretty much the technique that Raduga mainly teaches and promotes with a few extras as boosters.

The term "Phase" used there is a broad term which literally means OOBE/AP/LD. It is not to be mistaken as an experience employing the "phasing" technique - although the term Phase clearly comes from Monroe. Raduga doesn't actually say "we're phasing". He says "we are entering the Phase". The Phase term is used to describe the experience, which, in my humble opinion, is exactly the same as what you get when you use the phasing technique.

What is your view on this?

[Pauli2]

My view is today, that Raduga's "indirect technique" requires u to NOT move after having waked up.

Monroe's old technique was to induce direct OBE, but Monroe said in one (or more) radio interview(s)
that the Condition A, B, C, D technique is not done like that at TMI anymore.

So...

Raduga's technique seems more about going back to sleep in LD, while Monroe's is about directly
getting the astral body move free.

Finally, if the foundation of a technique seems wrong, I would avoid that technique.

[ether2]

The point here is *YOU CAN'T EVER KNOW*.

You're asking for a definable TRUTH... a 100% guaranteed TRUTH.

I'm sorry Pauli, but if you're looking for something absolutely concrete, I HIGHLY SUGGEST you stop learning to astral project and take up knitting.

thats a statement of someone with very little depth of knowledge (insight) of the workings of various processes...

then what you can say is that i clearly said i dont know what phaseing is, hay thats a fair comment, but if i could be bothered i would know...

everything can be matched to see what is what and what does what, full proof, hold in any court of law...

ya wont ever get a job with us man, but you already knew that ...

good luck

love all

[Xanth]

My view is today, that Raduga's "indirect technique" requires u to NOT move after having waked up.

Which is a very effective way to easily gain access to the non-physical.

Choose to not believe it all you want, but many people have had success with it. 
All you're doing is cutting yourself off from a method/exercise that could potentially help you.  That's YOUR loss.

Monroe's old technique was to induce direct OBE, but Monroe said in one (or more) radio interview(s)
that the Condition A, B, C, D technique is not done like that at TMI anymore.

So...

Raduga's technique seems more about going back to sleep in LD, while Monroe's is about directly
getting the astral body move free.

Finally, if the foundation of a technique seems wrong, I would avoid that technique.

It's all perspective, Pauli.

I simply don't understand how anyone can see these things as separate experiences.  THAT is what blows my mind.

[Summerlander]

My view is today, that Raduga's "indirect technique" requires u to NOT move after having waked up.

Monroe's old technique was to induce direct OBE, but Monroe said in one (or more) radio interview(s)
that the Condition A, B, C, D technique is not done like that at TMI anymore.

So...

Raduga's technique seems more about going back to sleep in LD, while Monroe's is about directly
getting the astral body move free.

Finally, if the foundation of a technique seems wrong, I would avoid that technique.

Actually, Monroe said that Condition D is best achieved after a nap or sleep, ideally in the morning. It can be induced from a rested/refreshed state. Raduga says the same thing. Raduga also promotes the deferred method, which is the "wake back to bed" way (you wake up, get up and walk around to curb the sleep inertia symptoms, and then you go down a little later to induce).

The results are the same, Pauli. You either prime yourself with some sort of sleep and then induce later from a hypnagogic state that comes to you quicker than usual...OR...you wake up in the morning after a night's sleep, recognise that you have woken up, and remain still in order to enter the Phase from the hypnopompic state.

The result is the same thing to me. I see no difference and I have experimented with both several times. Once again, the term "OOBE", which was popularised by authors such as Monroe as an alternative to the belief-centric "Astral Projection", is only a term that describes what the experience feels like - it doesn't affirm in any way that we truly leave our bodies.

Now, DILDs and WILDs can be regarded as OOBEs too in the sense that, once you enter the dreamworlds, you have the sensation that you are not lying in bed any more. You feel as though you are out-of-body so to speak. WILDs can recreate the OOBE scenario purely from expectation. I don't see any difference between the two. Also, I'd like to add that, my experience has taught me that, in the Phase (OOBE/AP/LD), space is illusory like everything else in that reality. It is made of thought. Your movement is a thought. Objects are made of thought there. Distance is a thought. It is the realm of thoughts. It feels actual once you are fully focused there because you have altered your consciousness to match and absorb that perspective. It may emulate physical reality but they are thoughts.

In conclusion, when you shift yourself to separate from the body, you are not really moving (in the actual sense of covering physical realm distance). You are not really separating from the body because you are in the realm of thoughts and thought is action there. When you enter the Phase state, however you perceive the entrance, you are always changing the phase relationship between yourself and your surroundings...hence the term "phasing" being born. I thought I was separating from the body too, at the beginning...but then I observed certain things in the Phase environments such as turning 3D distances into flat 2D surfaces that I could rip apart like a Salvador Dali canvas...or entering paintings on walls to find myself in 3D versions of those paintings...the physical realm rules don't exist there unless you want them or expect them to exist. Period.

As far as I can tell, from experience, OOBEs and lucid dreams - although often conveying different entrances into the Phase - are basically the same thing.

[ether2]

Which is a very effective way to easily gain access to the non-physical.

Choose to not believe it all you want, but many people have had success with it. 
All you're doing is cutting yourself off from a method/exercise that could potentially help you.  That's YOUR loss.
It's all perspective, Pauli.

I simply don't understand how anyone can see these things as separate experiences.  THAT is what blows my mind.

as a by stander or lets call it a jury to this scenario and heard/read alot of evidence on both sides more so yours xanth because i know pauli2 practises PUL and you clearly do not, therefore i dont pick his/hers work/post apart like yours, i have to say as many now know the more PUL ya have the more higher in consciousness ya become the higher in consciousness you are the more knowledge/wisdom MINDS ABILITIES/Qualifications you have, this is clearly spelt out in the gradeing/level/test- schooling of the minds abilities/knowledge/wisdom, practise PUL you are clearly higher in consciousness/knowledge/wisdom/minds abilities than someone who does not practise PUL, PUL = higher grade of mentality/knowledge/wisdom = higher Qualifications...

this here is inarguable/indisputable of how to get to the higher knowledge/wisdom/minds abilities, it's a schooling and will hold up in any court ruleing/system ...

http://thewayitisether.wordpress.com/existencedimensionsladder-love-all/
and
http://thewayitisether.wordpress.com/summary-of-ladder-of-consciousnessdimensions-2/

so therefore in a court of law your word would be like a mentally retarded 3 year old giveing a diagnosis of someone's psychological stataus/evaluation as against someone with 40 years of experience in the field of psychiatry...

good luck man with your supreme mis-guided tours

love all man love all

hay SL isnt lucid dream more like projection i always interpreted dreams to be like projection not OBe i know with my dealings with people that have written books on the subjects also agree with this...

to me projection is when ya see ya body in the plains/realms what ever ya want to call it doin it's thing...
i also know whilst OBe whilst driveing a car 100/110 km/h, i can see what i'm doing in an OBe conscious state from my Obe non-physical body and all so see my non-physical body in a conscious state from my physical body doing the required task at a close distance whilst driveing safely of course...
contradictory?, No...
i just worked something out so i'll leave it their...
now i got to work how to test peoples knowledge on this so i can see their developement, so as they too can OBe/AP whilst driveing a car safely...
the above link will help ya get their...

good luck

love all

[Xanth]

Pauli, lemme ask you this... what if those authors are wrong?  I mean, sure, they have their published books (a fact that is meaningless to me, I've learned more from unpublished people than published)... they have their own experiential data to draw from.  Then we have the other side of the discussion...

But really, we all have to keep an open mind about *ALL* of this stuff.  I haven't seen any evidence that shows conclusively one way or the other... HOWEVER, my own direct experiences have pushed me off the fence into one distinct direction on the subject.

So really... Pauli, what happens if your authors are wrong? 
And what effect will that have upon your practices of Astral Projection?

[Astral316]

So really... Pauli, what happens if your authors are wrong? 
And what effect will that have upon your practices of Astral Projection?

[Xanth]

ROFL! Nice 

[blis]

LD, OBE, Phase - They're just words. Since we cant agree what the words mean, they mean whatever you want them to.

If you think they're the same thing then they are. If you dont then they arent.

But they're all real. Everything is real. My thoughts are real. My visualisations are real. They exist. I might not know where they exist but they exist.

[Astral316]

Just wanted to expand on Tom's quote from the other thread with the second part that was (conveniently) left out...

Tom: They are fundamentally very similar. The main differences are generated by nature of the entry (from uninterrupted awareness or from unconsciousness) and the nature of belief attached to each entry process."

So the main difference is whether you become aware before or after entry into non-physical and the BELIEFS attached to each.

So Campbell is not a member of this bandwagon.

[Xanth]

Thank you Astral316 for pointing that particular misquote out. 
It certainly does seem to point out contrary to Pauli's opinion.

[Summerlander]

By the way, I tried the experiment where non-physical reality affects physical. I entered the Phase and asked my "oversoul" to give me a six pac and make me look sexier. It worked. I woke up with a six pack coming through and bulging muscles:



 

[Xanth]

You scare me sometimes Summerlander. 

In any case... I was just thinking that even if, one day, they prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that astral projection is "fake"... y'know what?  I'd STILL practice it... because I know it has value "TO ME".  Even if that value is being able to fly around a "mind version" of the earth.  It's an absolutely FANTASTIC sensation.

However, this thread, and the others like it which you've created Pauli, have only served to strengthen what I already know to be true.  So in a way, I should be thanking you.