About Hatred and other "low vibratory emotions"

[CFTraveler]

I say I hate things all the time but its not true hate. 

Me too.  I catch all kinds of crap for it too.  But everyone knows I really don't mean it.

[Xtensity]

Ok, well perhaps I might be misunderstanding/misinterpretting hate. Though, when something bothers me so much that I say I hate it, It usually does not accompany an intense rage, or even a disturbance in my blissful feeling. Maybe it's just when I truly despise something, which there are a lot of things I do. I haven't felt anger in a long time, but scenarios that used to make me "angry" in the past, no longer disturb my blissful feeling that I maintain; yet, my mental response in accordance to my thought is the same.

For instance:If someone felt up my girlfriend/wife a few years ago, I would get pretty angry and probably beat the crap out of them. Now, I would maintain my blissful feeling, and still have the desire to beat the crap out of them.

In both situations, I maintain saying that I hate the person, while in the latter, I experience no intense emotional rage or anything of the such, just what I call peaceful hate.

What else would you describe this as? Feeling happy yet still feeling the desire to beat the crap out of someone for what they did? When before all my meditation practice, this would have made be very "angry", yet still made me want to beat the crap out of them?

Only emotion and inadequate brain capacity can assist an irrational decision such as murder. I doubt you think yourself mentally handicapped, so which emotion would prompt such behavior? Is it maybe a feeling that you are "suppose to" hate so you're "suppose to" want to carry out the hypothetical revenge murder? I think CFTraveler could be right again with the term "dissociation."

The fact that you call murder irrational means you don't understand the true nature of human psychology. There is no such thing as rational or irrational. They are all dependent upon brain mechanics, subjectivity, etc. No one said I would have to avenge a hypothetical murder of my family, but of course I have some emotional motivator. You might see it as an irrational action, but here is my reasoning: If someone is willing to murder your whole family and then they manage to get away with it and not be tried in court, yet you know who they are, would you let them go on the streets and live to commit more crime? Knowing they could very easily be murdering another innocent family. (Perfect example of this is the movie Law Abiding Citizen).

Anything can be rationalized on some level or another and it's all really dependent on the core emotional motivators of a person, reasoning, etc. Nothing is inherently irrational, for rationality is subjective to the human experience and perception.

An emotion is a subjective experience so you're contradicting yourself. Of course, one can use logic and mental exercises to control certain emotions but that's different.

I have to disagree with you on this. No one is emotionless at any level(not that you said they are). Emotions guide every decision you make whether you are aware of it or not. The subtleness of emotions stretches to the depths of the mind. It is impossible to make ANY decision without emotion being involved on some level. For logical action to be taken, there must be an emotional motivator at some level or another. Or something must be programmed as in the case of a robot. Logic always is accompanied by emotion on some level. You may realize this if you ever experience intense rage, sadness, depression, etc. They change your 'rationality'. It just shows that there is no such thing as true rationality. Your emotional state effects every choice you make, rational to us is what society has deemed, or what your normal emotional state might be.

People who can control their hate let it go. Honestly most of this paragraph would make more sense if the words "anger" and "hate" were switched.

Again, there are apparent reasons for taking actions against someone who has wronged you, mostly to prevent it from happening to you or someone else in the future. You say this is not controlling hate? My perception is someone who doesn't do something about it, isn't controlling their fear or intimidation. Which of us is wrong? And looking back at the previous case and point, subjectivity. Neither of us are truly wrong, for no action is inherently rational or irrational.

[Astral316]

The fact that you call murder irrational means you don't understand the true nature of human psychology. There is no such thing as rational or irrational. They are all dependent upon brain mechanics, subjectivity, etc.

I meant irrational in a social context. I'm well aware that any destructive thought can make perfect sense within a single human mind if emotion and psychological makeup permits. Most people stop there because in a social context there is status quo... criminal laws... prison time if one chooses to carry out the destructive thought. Any action against one's long term freedom and survival is irrational, and prison doesn't beget survival...

No one said I would have to avenge a hypothetical murder of my family, but of course I have some emotional motivator. You might see it as an irrational action, but here is my reasoning: If someone is willing to murder your whole family and then they manage to get away with it and not be tried in court, yet you know who they are, would you let them go on the streets and live to commit more crime? Knowing they could very easily be murdering another innocent family. (Perfect example of this is the movie Law Abiding Citizen).

I saw Law Abiding Citizen and Butler's character was driven by intense rage... he wasn't thinking, "Well gee... logically if I kill my family's murderers I'll be saving an estimated 4.75 lives in the next fiscal period. Sounds like I got a job to do!"

I have to disagree with you on this. No one is emotionless at any level(not that you said they are). Emotions guide every decision you make whether you are aware of it or not. The subtleness of emotions stretches to the depths of the mind. It is impossible to make ANY decision without emotion being involved on some level. For logical action to be taken, there must be an emotional motivator at some level or another. Or something must be programmed as in the case of a robot. Logic always is accompanied by emotion on some level. You may realize this if you ever experience intense rage, sadness, depression, etc. They change your 'rationality'. It just shows that there is no such thing as true rationality. Your emotional state effects every choice you make, rational to us is what society has deemed, or what your normal emotional state might be.

Take this as an example... I get angry at someone and then my introspective self says, "Don't get heated... count to 10 and walk away." What emotion is this? Maybe the "desire to be in control of emotions" emotion? Logical thought is more clear and consistent during certain states of mind and in people who can control their emotions (ie. more introspective.) In this respect subjective logic isn't so much dependent on emotion as it's affected by it.

Again, there are apparent reasons for taking actions against someone who has wronged you, mostly to prevent it from happening to you or someone else in the future. You say this is not controlling hate? My perception is someone who doesn't do something about it, isn't controlling their fear or intimidation. Which of us is wrong? And looking back at the previous case and point, subjectivity. Neither of us are truly wrong, for no action is inherently rational or irrational.

An action is irrational if you know the consequences but proceed anyway. Consequences in a society deter people from violating the civil rights of others. It's logical not to violate someone's civil rights because consequences dictate this is indirectly harmful to one's survival, correct? So you need emotion to overcome the deterrence. I doubt you can find any way around this. Remember.. we're not arguing what is rational or irrational, we're arguing if anger accompanies hate.

[Xtensity]

Astral316, instead of responding to each individual quote I will agree with you. Maybe anger does accompany hate and my bliss is just transcending it. I don't feel any compulsive anger in these situations where I want to take action against someone else.

If you're basing rationality on social laws and restrictions, that's a poor way to live, in my opinion. I do not believe all laws are fair and just. I believe many are quite restricting. My philosophy is we should all get to live and do anything we will as long as it is not intruding on another persons personal wellbeing, health, property, etc. If I want to do cocaine in my house I should be able to do so. If it gets to the point where I am doing things that harm others, then of course I should be punished.

Fearing punishment of laws for taking just action that was not fufilled by courts in order to save others lives is not irrational if you are able to evade it. (and yes I understand rage/anger/hate may be a motivator in vengeance etc)

It's like, fearing going outside because you 'may' have a tree fall on you. Are you going to say because there is potentiality for something to happen that may interfere on your ability to live and survive that the action of going outside is irrational?

The same thing applies to actions that go against various laws. There is always a risk of getting hurt with everything you do, whether small or large, therefore based on what you said about irrationality being breaking a laws, living itself is irrational. I could even say eating that cheeseburger is irrational because it may give you a heart attack.

[Astral316]

Astral316, instead of responding to each individual quote I will agree with you. Maybe anger does accompany hate and my bliss is just transcending it. I don't feel any compulsive anger in these situations where I want to take action against someone else.

Fair enough.

If you're basing rationality on social laws and restrictions, that's a poor way to live, in my opinion. I do not believe all laws are fair and just. I believe many are quite restricting. My philosophy is we should all get to live and do anything we will as long as it is not intruding on another persons personal wellbeing, health, property, etc. If I want to do cocaine in my house I should be able to do so. If it gets to the point where I am doing things that harm others, then of course I should be punished.

All I said was intentionally violating the civil rights of others, particularly murder, is irrational. I could've worked a moral angle on that statement, but I chose the "social laws and restrictions" angle because that's the one that produces concrete consequences. I'm certainly no saint when it comes to following laws, this is all hypothetical.

Fearing punishment of laws for taking just action that was not fufilled by courts in order to save others lives is not irrational if you are able to evade it. (and yes I understand rage/anger/hate may be a motivator in vengeance etc)

Fair enough.

It's like, fearing going outside because you 'may' have a tree fall on you. Are you going to say because there is potentiality for something to happen that may interfere on your ability to live and survive that the action of going outside is irrational?

You're using an analogy where the action isn't strongly tied to the potential reaction... in other words, a small percentage of people who go outside have a tree fall on them. However, a significant percentage of murderers and other violent offenders end up going to prison. See what I'm saying? The high probability of getting caught creates deterrence. A deterrence is a stumbling block in pure logical action, so substantial emotion is needed to overcome it. What's rational or irrational in a non-criminal context is up for interpretation.

[thewhitesnake]

This isn't peaceful hatred, it's ego. It feels good, but it's the avoidance of a relationship. It's ignorance's bliss.

[personalreality]

hate, like all emotions, are physical constructs for the sole purpose of emotional memory.  it's a tool for survival of the physical body.  i don't believe that emotion is a spiritual quality that is experienced in a fashion similar to physical reality when one is not in physical reality.  so the real trick (which i believe that the buddhists taught us) is to be able to observe an emotion objectively, as a bookmark.  When you avoid getting "sucked in" to the emotion you are able to make a conscious connection between the real world scenario and the emotion that is representing it.  The next step then is to use these emotional bookmarks in a practical manner, which is the essence of magical ritual.  On a more grounded level, these bookmarks inform our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system how to handle a given situation.  This is, at it's most basic level, common to all life on earth.  Humans, with our heightened ability for introspection, have the ability to take these emotional bookmarks a step further and apply the energy associated with a particular memory to a real world scenario in order to effect the outcome so that it is congruous with our intent or will.  This is especially of interest to LDs and OBEs because often times the unusual symbolism we encounter in these states are meant to be emotional representations of a scenario we've encountered before.  When the emotionless 'subtle body' encounters a unique situation that data is transmitted back to the body with the consciousness.  In order to make "physical sense" of the scenario, our mind searches the emotional memories/bookmarks for something that is as similar as possible and interprets this new data through that perceptual filter which results in seemingly illogical symbolism.  I also believe that these emotional memories are stored in the body as sensation or energy movement.  So when you're doing your energy work practice, you're actually moving around emotional memories. 

There are some great books on the subject, though dots have to be connected.  One of the ones that influenced me the most was a book written by a guy named Lawrence Gonzales, called "Deep Survival".  It's not in any way metaphysical.  It's actually about how our body/mind/brain reacts in survival situations.  Another good one is Malcolm Gladwell and his series of books, particularly Blink, which explains how our body makes decisions in the blink of an eye, before our conscious mind is even aware of the choices available. 

So, no emotion is inherently good or bad (though I'm not necessarily disputing that these emotional memories aren't represented as vibration of some kind of energy), it's what people do with it that makes it healthy or unhealthy, ie how much they identify themselves by their emotional state, which unfortunately seems to be how most people handle emotion.

[CFTraveler]

hate, like all emotions, are physical constructs for the sole purpose of emotional memory.  it's a tool for survival of the physical body.  i don't believe that emotion is a spiritual quality that is experienced in a fashion similar to physical reality when one is not in physical reality.  so the real trick (which i believe that the buddhists taught us) is to be able to observe an emotion objectively, as a bookmark.  When you avoid getting "sucked in" to the emotion you are able to make a conscious connection between the real world scenario and the emotion that is representing it.  The next step then is to use these emotional bookmarks in a practical manner, which is the essence of magical ritual.  On a more grounded level, these bookmarks inform our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system how to handle a given situation.  This is, at it's most basic level, common to all life on earth.  Humans, with our heightened ability for introspection, have the ability to take these emotional bookmarks a step further and apply the energy associated with a particular memory to a real world scenario in order to effect the outcome so that it is congruous with our intent or will.  This is especially of interest to LDs and OBEs because often times the unusual symbolism we encounter in these states are meant to be emotional representations of a scenario we've encountered before.  When the emotionless 'subtle body' encounters a unique situation that data is transmitted back to the body with the consciousness.  In order to make "physical sense" of the scenario, our mind searches the emotional memories/bookmarks for something that is as similar as possible and interprets this new data through that perceptual filter which results in seemingly illogical symbolism.  I also believe that these emotional memories are stored in the body as sensation or energy movement.  So when you're doing your energy work practice, you're actually moving around emotional memories. 

There are some great books on the subject, though dots have to be connected.  One of the ones that influenced me the most was a book written by a guy named Lawrence Gonzales, called "Deep Survival".  It's not in any way metaphysical.  It's actually about how our body/mind/brain reacts in survival situations.  Another good one is Malcolm Gladwell and his series of books, particularly Blink, which explains how our body makes decisions in the blink of an eye, before our conscious mind is even aware of the choices available. 

So, no emotion is inherently good or bad (though I'm not necessarily disputing that these emotional memories aren't represented as vibration of some kind of energy), it's what people do with it that makes it healthy or unhealthy, ie how much they identify themselves by their emotional state, which unfortunately seems to be how most people handle emotion.

I like this.

[personalreality]

I do too, but actually practicing it is a different story.  It is SOOOOOO hard to not put a value judgment on emotion.  We just always seem to think that "positive" emotions are good and "negative" emotions are bad.  I've found that if I look at positive and negative as adding and removing, things go more smoothly.  So a negative emotion is an energy associated with the removal of something, whereas a positive emotion would be associated with attracting something, just like in magical ritual and phases of the moon (new to full attracts, full to new repels).