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Author Topic: Kung fu and the chi  (Read 5036 times)
cainam_nazier
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« on: May 08, 2002, 07:56:16 »

There are a couple of different way you can do this.  

One way being that you use your engergy and move it in to your hand as the strike is in motion.  This being akin to throwing your weight into the strike.

Another being to use your energy to fortify the strike.  As in making your hand more solid and dense to increase contact hardness and reduce personal injury.  Mostly used when striking an object or hard surface.  Breaking boards, striking bone to bone.

A more controled and focus strike would be projecting a shield of sorts or a double of your fist 2-3 in front of yours.  This to be done as contact is made to drive the energy into the object or person.  This being interesting for example using said strike on a stack of bricks to break the 3rd or 4th one down instead of the top one.

There are many variations to these but the basic is to just get used to the energy flowing through you as different techniques are performed.  The unification of the mind and body can be difficult, but with more focus and practise it become easier.  But keep in mind that some one can use similar techniques to block or nulify the usage of energy.  But with practise shields, walls, and barriers can be broken or penitraited.  Energy can be used to change the size, shape, strength, impqact zone, damage done

David Rogalski
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servo-15
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2002, 23:47:04 »

Can using chi energy for punches be practised on pads or punchbags?

 
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2002, 23:47:04 »

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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2002, 06:01:16 »

Yes.

I have used various objects and surfaces for this.  Punching bags, boards, block walls, metal plates, piping, doors, trees, desks, and the list goes on.  

I think one of the best items for checking strike patterns and dispearsal ratios is drywall.  I had a chance to go into a building that was being demo'ed and played around with striking at the was with all kinds of different punches and kicks.  I found that I could narrow my focus enough to put just my hand or fist through the wall.  I also found that I could make the strike area wide enough to cause a three foot spider web of cracks with my hand.  I tried with a kick and messed up only slightly.  I was a little slow in the movment but still had a positive result.  I burried my leg in the wall up to my thigh but like I said I was slow and as a result I ended up blowing an entire sheet of drywall off the other side of the wall.  It had a hollow point bullet effect.  There was a 10-12 inch hole on one side and a 4x8 foot hole on the other.  That was a lot of fun.

David Rogalski
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servo-15
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2002, 19:51:52 »

Trees?Huh? Damn!!!!
I suppose that you condition your fists and feet first? What is drywall? Is it the partition walls made from gypsum? Well, it sounds good if you can practice on inanimate objects where you can objectively see your development.

 
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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2002, 03:54:39 »

Drywall.

White chalky substance compressed into 4 foot by 8 foot by 1/2 inch sheets used to make walls.  Thats what we call it in the US.  It is fairly stiff.  Easy broken when in large pieces but can be difficult to when in smaller chuncks.  It gains most of its strength from the paper that covers it.

David Rogalski
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2002, 03:54:39 »



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Fenris
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2002, 06:48:40 »

Hello

A close friend of mine is highly graded in the martial art of Bujinkan Kobudo, if you have not heard of it, it is a very old combat art originating in feudal Japan. The basic concept being using natural movement and distance to overcome speed and power. Anyways...

My friend talks a lot about intent. He and others he has trained with in Japan (at head dojo) seem to have really developed the ability to both sence and project intent very strongly. Basically he can really change the atmosphere to an environment. When training with the more skilled students in his school he occasionally will focus his intent of destroying them, (as one would in battle, keeping in mind that it is not so much a martial art but a war art) you can actually feel the room change.

To bring it back to the topic http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

People who have trained with Masaaki Hatsumi Soke (the grandmaster of the school, located in Japan) have discribed not only the shift in atmosphere he seems to create but bizarre things like being stabed by objects that arnt there, it seems that he can focus his intent/energy into something seperate from his body and actually make people feel it. Its like what cainam nazier expained about extending your energy body to be ahead of the blow being delivered by the physical body, but much more focused.

regards
David

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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2002, 08:59:45 »

The person who trains my brother in law can do that as well.  My brother in law has described to me a couple of times what it is like to hit by some one from accross the room.   He says it does not hurt the same as being physically struck, the pain is deeper and lasts longer.  His says it is a very strange feeling and more so of an experience when you know where it came from.   He told me that the first time it happened he was totally amazed despite the fact he was lying on the floor from it.  He was more shocked than anything.

David Rogalski
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kakkarot
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2002, 20:23:26 »

i have heard of an oriental "martial art" that uses extremely focused negative chi to be able to kill people just by touching them. the practicioners of the art tend to stop cutting their fingernails and let them grow really long. does anyone know the name of the art? cause i forget. thanks.

for people who are looking for information on chi or ki should look to oriental websites about martial arts because they tend to be more accurate than non-oriental websites. or just talk to the people who can use them (like that grand master  Smiley.

as to the "intent" thing, it either partially or completely has to do with the use of chi. it is said that when you focus on an object or person your chi projects from you to the object or person, surrounding it and entering it. people can feel the energy, if the energy is great enough or the practicioner sensitive enough, and can sense when other people are focusing on them. if the person projecting the energy through their intent was powerful enough, then, like fenris said, the atmosphere of the room can change into what the person wants it to feel like. you can make the atmosphere more friendly, more hostile, happy, sad, etc. (also, the intent thing could be a mental force that makes the people within it's effects think, subconsciously, that something was different. like a mental attack of sorts.)

i think it has something to do with actually getting other peoples' energies to feel the same as the energy that the person is projecting, as well. cause i know that i went through a couple of experiences where other people modified my chi while it was in my body. one person turned it from positive chi into negative chi and making it feel like it was sinking into my chest, just by glaring at me. and the other one was so intent on proving that he was stronger than me that he actually made my chi "fearful". well, he didn't so much make the energy fearful as make it so that i felt fear whenever i felt my energy. it took me a couple of minutes to set my energy right after that.

btw martial means war, fenris Smiley  i think you mean that the practice of the art is for combat rather than excercise or discipline or self-defense. that is one of the biggest pet peaves i have against most martial arts "dojo"s today; the fact that they watered down the art so that people can use it safely when they were created for the express purpose of killing and war. kinda like using a computer to ONLY EVER do simple math. oh well

~kakkorotto

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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2002, 03:24:18 »

I must step in and counter.

Not all styles of martial arts are for the sole perpose of fighting and killing.  There are only a handfull that actually have that intent.  Nin Jit Su, Toga Ru Kia, and Tae Kwan Do to name a couple.  Infact Toga Ru Kia is considered so dangerous that it is only taught legally in 3 temples globally.  Tai Chi, Shoulin, and Judo are styles focused mainly on improving the body, the mind, and self defense.  This is apparent given the techniques that are learned.  Granted any one can take this knowledge and use it for ill means but if you seek out true masters in the arts you will find that many of them are very selective in who they teach.  This is to insure that the style is not degraded to a point of just going out to beat people up.  The perfect example of this is the Shoulin monk.   There was a time that only the monks knew this style and they only used thier talents in the defense and protection of thier temple and those in need.  It was not like they were some mass army ruling the country side because they knew Kung Fu.  Yes martial art means the Art of War but the general view point was/is to know what war is, to become it's master, only then can you protect yourself and those around you from it.

If you really want to know what a syle is about you should talk to a master who has not Americanized the style.

"The greatest hinderence to any physical action is the consiousness of self." - Bruce Lee, The Tao of Jeet Kun Do.

David Rogalski
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kakkarot
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2002, 20:31:58 »

well, then cainam, i must block your counter Smiley

regarding tae kwon doe, i really don't think that being able to kick someone in the head 10 times in the head in two seconds (and naturally, each kick must be a different maneuver just for the show Wink  ) could be considered self-defense. who needs that much skill and power for self-defense when most skilled fighters have a (personal or school based) code of honour and ethics that doesn't allow for the fighter to start a fight without really good cause? but, yeah i get what you are saying. although i guess i use a different idea for when self-defense is used rather than offensive fighting.

after all, most martial arts are action based, not reaction based; bruce lee's Jeet Kun Do is a good example of this as one of the ideas is that you must lead the fight rather than letting your opponent lead you. in fact, aikido and daito ryu are the only martial arts that i have heard of where it is taught as part of the martial art for you to wait for your opponent to attack before you should execute any maneuvers; that anything you do should be a reaction to your opponent's actions. in most other martial arts, the practicioner is cautioned to never start a fight, but if someone else starts it then you should actively take down your opponent(s) as quickly as possible.

ok, ok. so the martial arts WEREN'T created solely for the purpose of killing and waging war. my bad. they also incorporate spiritual and mental development to go along with the physical development, hoping to turn the martial artist into a powerful figure in more ways than just combat. but the main training is physically based - and more than that, combat based.

>>cainum_nazier said:
If you really want to know what a syle is about you should talk to a master who has not Americanized the style.
>>>
THANKS! that's the concept that i was trying to pin down, but my thoughts are rarely in order so i couldn't put write it right in my prior post. the reason i said to check out websites is because it isn't very easy to find true masters of martial arts where i am, and because websites usually clearly differentiate between the intent of the martial art, and an school/individual's belief as to what the martial art is for.

anyway, i guess i will try to add something regarding the original intent of this topic just to prove that my posts are validly here.  Smiley  actually, most chinese martial arts are already set up for the purpose of being able to incorporate chi into the art fairly easily. as you move your body, let your energy flow with your motions, and remember to keep your motions fluid. it is said that chi moves like water; it flows along a path that should not be jagged, but should be fluid. as the momentum of the water builds, the momentum of the energy will build and when you hit an object (including people) all that momentum and power is transfered. your instructor/master should show you how to incorporate the energy when you learn more about it. patience and understanding are the keys to learning.

~kakkorotto

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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2002, 23:31:27 »

I find it some what funny one mentioned water.  It can fit into any container, can be moved with a simple gesture, and also has the power to shape the landscape.

"Be like the nature of water."  A phrase often used when teaching.  Students often either do not understand or mis-understand the deeper meaning of this.  

A lake on a warm and calm day with no breeze.  The water is calm and placide.  That is until it is diturbed.  You toss a pepple into the water and it reacts, sharply at first but then slowly building up its momentom.  The ripples incircle and spread from the center until the whole of the surface is in a state of constant movement until the moment when it returns to the calm, placide state it was in before.

Often taken that one should react quickly and move like a thunder storm until all have felt it's wrath.  But the meaning is deeper than this.  One should be like water because of many more reasons.  

Water takes the path of least resistance and so should the student.  One should be calm until an action is presented the requires or rather causes a re-action.  The first quick actions is that of the mind, the question of how fare it needs to go.  The momentom builds from there and works outward bringing the whole of the body into action, building in strength as it moves but only to find the calm, placide state it was in before.  To return the center to balance.

Tae Kwon Doe was given as an example of the more combat geared styles.  

"in fact, aikido and daito ryu are the only martial arts that i have heard of where it is taught as part of the martial art for you to wait for your opponent to attack before you should execute any maneuvers"

Tai Chi, Judo, Kenpo, Kung Fu, Ju-Jitsu, are all reaction based.  A dodge and parry format if you will.

"but the main training is physically based - and more than that, combat based."

This being mainly true in America because parents often don't like other people instilling different concepts into thier children.  This being mainly when it comes down to the meditation aspect of the arts, which I personally feel are vastly important to the learning process.  Often when one begins to meditate certain question often arise about "the why?".  The be all of spiritual questions.  So many instructors leave the meditation out of the equation as to not impose the personal beliefs on the student which then have to answered by the parents.  But meditation does allow the mind and the body to work together better.  But unfortunately the physical aspect of the arts is required so that the body can become familiar with the movements.  And the only way to truely learn is to practice through combat with others.   It is only then that your mistakes can be acuratly "pointed" out to you.

And just to stop on a lighter note a quick joke.

A monk walks up to a hot dog vender and asks, "Can YOU make me one with every thing?"


David Rogalski
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Fenris
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2002, 02:59:01 »

It is obvious that practicing martial arts increases personal energy, but how? What is it that makes it more than just exercise in the energy stakes? Even those who dont intentionally mean to gain more energy from their training reap the same benefit.

regards to all

David

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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2002, 05:40:11 »

"It is obvious that practicing martial arts increases personal energy, but how? What is it that makes it more than just exercise in the energy stakes? Even those who dont intentionally mean to gain more energy from their training reap the same benefit"

I have been giving this some thought as of late.  Trying to attempt to find the connection and looking for a way to use that to help the manipulation of it.  So far I have come up with this.  The best relation I can see is like in the NEW system you end up focusing rather heavily on the body.  It's position and strain its under and so.  
Example, a simple punch.  You do not simply blindly throw your fist out.  You are thinking of every thing that goes into that punch.  Your stance, the bending and straightening of the arm, the slight rotation as the arm extends, the point where knuckles strike, the snap, the retraction of the arm, and it returning to the start position.  In a sence you are feeling the progression of your actions and how each relates to the other, what is to follow.
  I have been basically starting to look at it as a form of MBA.  But more general.  Instead of just thinking of the various parts of the body you are actually performing an action in conjunction.  This I suspect would make it considerably easier for people who also have no consept of energy and may not realize its affects.

David Rogalski
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Fenris
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2002, 11:05:18 »

Cainamnazier

Thanks! Makes sence. I am really reved up to start training with my friend I mentioned in a pervious post, Im 18 next month and can go into the adult class he teaches. To clarify Bujinkan Kobudo IS Ninjitsu, in the traditional sence. You sometimes dont get creadability if you say you practice Ninjitsu- to many bull **** schools and bad movies for the general public to understand. Im a fairly electic in my work so far but Im really starting to lean towards taking on the Martial life path.

Do you use much visualisation in your training? For eg just runing over and feeling a technique in your minds eye, I do a lot of this in my shooting training and I imagine it could be just as beificial with martial arts. To use an example from my shooting training, before I take a shoot in a comp I sit down and close my eyes, I than visualise every part of a real shot, the smell, wind ect and most importantly the sight image. I visualise taking a sucessful shot, and when I stand up to actually do it I have already done it before, and the shot goes just like I imagined. If you did a technique in your mind many times over It would perhaps become more fluid in its actual practice?

regards David

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kakkarot
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2002, 18:56:51 »

a person's energy increases as they practice the martial asts because the focus is not just on the body, but also on spiritual development. and as your spirit becomes stronger, it can control more and more energy. that is why with more training comes more power. but also, with more training, comes more understanding of how to use the energy which feels like an increase in power, but is really just being able to use the energy more efficiently.

the idea that cainam talks about, when you don't just blindly punch but use your entire body to throw a punch (or do pretty much any maneuver), is merely a gain in physical skill that allows a person to use their energy more efficiently because their body is being more efficient. like if you mix sugar and water then try to affect the water (by say, dumping it out), you affect the sugar as well. it also is an increase in power because your body is using its natural structure to increase any damage dealt.

in the hard martial arts, when you throw a straight punch, you lock your wrist, lock your elbow, lock your shoulder, lock your waist, and lock your legs. but why? because when you lock all those joints, your body becomes stiff like a complete two by four rather than like a bunch of broken up pieces of wood that are being thrown at someone. in the soft martial arts, you use momentum and centrifugal force as well as other laws of motion (that you can learn about in physics class) that allow you to gain power from the start of your attack through to the end.

and so, when you gain in ability with energy, it is easier to use your body, and when you gain in ability with your body, it is easier to use your energy.

now throw the mind in their as well, as fenris is talking about with the idea of visualization, and you strengthen your entire being.

to answer you other question fenris, when i was training in the martial arts (and when i start again) i sometimes used visualization training on its own. i would sit down on the floor, cross my arms, and close my eyes. i would then imagine land that i would be standing on - any type of land will do, in fact the type of landscape can help you train in different ways. i would create the landscape completely - forcing gravity to occur, creating wind sometimes, putting little rocks and such in the area, and making sure that time and space worked like in the real world rather than in my mind. i would then imagine an opponent; i would create the opponent completely - i would give determine how intelligent it was, how strong it was, how fast it was, how skilled it was, and any special abilities it could use. then i would give my "avatar" (i forget the correct word) all of my own abilities and skills and then i would put my minds eye into my avatar. then i would fight my opponent, imagining what my opponent would do and how i would counter and how it would counter, ad infinitum. one other thing though, this works lots better if you actually let your muscles twitch with your movements - any time your avatar punches, your arm would twitch as though it was throwing a punch. this allows the body to get some training in as well as your mind.

this is why i don't like boxing or kickboxing, because they don't touch on the development of a human being as a whole human being, but only focuses on training the body.

hey cainam, what is MBA?

and to end on a lighter note: !!!! FIRE   FIRE !!!!  Smiley

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cainam_nazier
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2002, 20:53:04 »

MBA - Mobile Body Awarness.

Fenris-

Yes I use my imagination a lot when learning anything actually.  I find that it helps the mind become more familiar which helps the body become more familiar.  Very much the same way in which you described.  But a while ago I begain to explore this further.  As I walk down the street I use the various people that I run across to aid in my training.  How you may ask? (Only because I know you will.)  As some one walks towards me and past me I imagine the various things that they could do to cause me harm.  I size them up.  I consider thier size, frame, how they walk and move, the look in thier eye, and thier facial expressions.  All of these things can give you some idea of how a person will move and act in a fight and so I apply this to my imagination.  I picture what that person would do and how I would counter.  I figure I work out about 10 to 15 different possibilities with each person.  I have found that this helps considerably with sparing since it can give you a wider base for some ones possible actions.
  I also do something else that my brother in law taught me.  It helps to become a little bit more familiar with your own body using normal movments.  I often think very heavily on actions that I am performing.  Even on seemingly simple things like taking a drink of water.  I pay attention to the movement of the arm and hand, how they work together, triggered by a single thought.  This becomes adventageous when ingauged in combat.  It helps to refine your thoughts to a singular point allowing you to become more focused on what is going on, and eventually you don't end up putting as much thought into what it is that you need to do but rather what you are doing.  It make it easier to look at it later a figure what you did correctly and what you did not.  This being so you can learn from it.  There is hardly any point to anything if you can not learn from the experience.

  This one of the problems I find with most schools.  They do not teach this kind of training and I have found it to be very helpful in the overall learning process.

---A Handfull of Interesting Facts About the Body---
All things refer to the correctly placed pressure and are messure in Pounds Per Square Inch (psi)

3 psi to remove a persons ear
3 psi to disocate a knee cap.
7 psi sends said knee cap skipping across the floor.
3 psi breaks an elbow
9 psi will shatter it completely
7 psi will remove a persons upper lip.
7 psi will break a thigh bone.
5 psi will break a knee
7 psi will break a shine
5-9 psi to dislocate a shoulder.

Despite all these frailties you can still take the average human leg and suspend over a ton from it befor the knee seperates.

The list continues.  I find it very interesting that people in general don't inadvertantly kill themselves with day to day living.  I find the human body a very interesting machine.  It is extreamly fragile and strong at the same time.  The possiblilty or a person just tripping and landing wrong a dieing as a result is an insanely high possiblity but yet it rarely happens.

David Rogalski
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Ashfo
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2002, 06:31:21 »

On the topic of visualization; I often use it alot in the off-season (im a skier - summer) as dry land training, before races and just generally on the chairlift.

Powerful stuff Smiley

- Ashfo

 
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2002, 03:07:56 »

Anyone have an opinion on the martial art Kuk Sool Won? I've read it's supposed to be an external, internal, hard, and soft art. Basically its all Korean martial arts combined into one unique system. What do you think?

 
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astralc
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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2002, 23:01:27 »

Hi all

getting back to the original post, using the martial arts to enhance or initiate  astral travel is not such a bad idea.

I first began to learn tai chi back in 1980 and within six months had my first astral projection. From then on I was out there almost every night. Why did this happen? I believe that it is because my teacher, Simon Lim, taught us to centre and earth our chi as the first internal exerice. We were directed to center out chi, our lifeforce, in our navel, or just below. No matter what we did in tai chi, it was always with the center and with chi flow.

I went on to learn shaolin style kung fu and pa kwa kung fu, with the same centered chi. No chi, no art.

Now I continue to use my tai chi but incorporate other taoist meditations that harness and extend the original chi. By flowing the chi through the meridians and circuits it is easier to astral project than before. It is expecially important that the feet and head are energised along with the hands and centre point at the navel.

Now with a little meditation and pushing the chi out of my Halo Point or crown chakra, it initiates OOB and astral projection.

So, yes, martial arts helps in astral projection.

Astralc
If you are interested in some articles on this topic you can visit my web site below.

www.shoal.net.au/~astralc
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Chris
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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2002, 05:39:07 »

I'll add to that.  With more training and awareness of your bodies energy, you learn how to FOCUS it.  Your qi follows the mind... or consciousness.  Where the mind goes or focusses, there your qi or vital force will be.  The martial arts in any form are an excellent way to learn how to gain FOCUS.  With greater focus comes greater ability to handle more energy.  My belief from over 20 years of experience is that focus is the key.  If you did not even move your body but had sufficient focus you could kill a person with a thought.  This is really what ceremonies and rituals are about... focus.  That is what true healers do... focus.  Without focus your mind and energy is scattered.  That is not to say that at times you don't want to disperse your focus or expand it... however strength of focus allows you to manipulate it and control it how you see fit for any given situation.  

For example, when feeling the intent of an oponent you should not focus your attention overly on them.  You should not look directly at them.  See them in your peripheral vision and sense their overall energy or aura.  Let go of trying to watch their movements and let your energy widen in a field around you and sense them.  You will find that as you get good at doing this that the movements of 90% or more of attackers can be predicted.  A skilled martial artist who knows internal martial arts knows how to cloak their intent because they are aware of where their energy is and how it is being projected.  A ninja for example would not stare intently at his target for a prolonged period because the flow of intent or energy from him could cause a person to be aware of him.  He looks away and maintains his energy within himself until the moment of the strike.  The energy does not project first, it comes afterward.  I have found that this is actually something that can be taught to most people within a couple of lessons.  Obviously that doesn't mean they will be experts at it... but they will understand the principle and be able to feel the effect and practice it.  



Sumedio takodemayo sumedio di!
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astralc
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« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2002, 07:15:57 »

ditto Chris

focus is a pretty darn important thing to develop if you wish to do martial arts.

Astralc

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DjMidgetMan
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« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2002, 22:27:17 »

I started kung fu 2 weeks ago and they are already teaching me the basics of chi kung or the use of the chi. Can someone tell me how i can incorporate my energy into my strikes?

DjMidgetMan
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