vegetarianism

[Winged_Wolf]

I think part of it for me is that I AM psi--and I can read plants to some degree.  I know when they are "alarmed" for example, and also when they are suffering.  I can't imagine, therefore, being kingdomist, and pretending that my perceptions mean nothing.  Life feeds on life...consider, at least when you eat an animal, it's dead.  Plants, because they've no central nervous system, are still alive if you eat them raw.  That's an individual philosophical outlook.  I may think that it's the silliest reason possible to be vegetarian because you don't want to kill things, but in the end it doesn't really matter if people choose to see it that way.

Now, I hate to do this, Mobius....but I have to disagree with you.
Humans have eyes in the front of their head because they are primates.  Primates need to judge distances because the vast majority of them are arboreal.  Climbing and jumping through trees requires extremely good depth perception.  We see in brilliant color so that we can better detect ripe fruits among the branches.  
Our nails will never be claws.  Don't wear them down by using them a lot, and they grow out and become unwieldy, then they break.   They're there to support our finger pads, so that we can better climb and grip things.
Human canines are reduced in size.  But teeth have less to do with diet than we originally thought they do.  The gorilla has massive fangs, but it is largely an herbivore, with the exception of a few insects it adds to its diet.  Bears have the teeth of a carnivore, but they are actually omnivorous.  On the other hand, chimps hunt and eat monkeys--they beat them to death with their hands, then share out the meat.  Chimps are our closest relatives.

To determine our natural diet, you really have to study the known fossil record closely, and also take a close look at the tools our ancestors used.  Digestive capabilities can change before dentition and other outward features do.  We now know, from studying coproliths, that neanderthals were true carnivores.  Our own ancestors were, however, not--they were omnivores, as we are.  The tool kit includes things for digging up roots, and things for hunting and skinning prey.  Studying the diet of "primitive" cultures of humans shows this as well--omnivory is the norm.

Not that this makes any difference.  You CAN live a healthy life on a vegan diet, although you need to take some vitamin supplements.  You can also live a healthy life as an omnivore, with no supplements.  Either way is fine, humans are adaptable.

Now, for my own version of spirituality on this--I don't think a person should eat anything they wouldn't be willing to kill themselves.  If you're fine with killing, go ahead and eat it.  I plan on raising my own chickens in a few years, when I have land.  I'm not going to pay someone to do the dirty work for me.
Then again, I also think I'm a wolf, so your mileage may vary.


--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[distant bell]

Actually- eating meat requiers ten times as much agriculrural land then eating plants. So If all people would start living on plants (and fish- to use what grows in the ocean) the amount of land needed for agriculture could be decreased.

I fully agree with Winged Wolf- thou should not eat what you cannot kill with your own hands- thats why I´m a vegetarian...

About the life energy of the things you eat (prana), I have
heard that eating living things (preferebly fresh animals, like
oysters), or rather things still containing life energy can be wery
benefitial. Would this not imply that a diet of fresh plants and vegetables should contain more life energy?

I now that fresh blood has been used in many rituals to suport the magickian with life energy to do different materialisations.



 

[A-M]

First of all I want to say that I'm delighted with a discussion on this level. Normally it doesn't get further than "well, yes, I do feel sorry for the animals, but I like meat, so......" (which tells you a lot about the inspiring surroundings I live in)
I would like to add some brief points of reflection:

1. what I've learned from the 'inside' of our bodies is that it is not adequate to digest meat: the saliva and the stomach fluid is not acid enough, and our bowels are too long (the teeth were discussed before).
Though not everybody seems to agree with this, from my personal experience I can testify that a lot of (heavy) meat eaters I know have digestion problems....

2. without the help of our intelligence, our body would not be able to hunt down animals. There is no way we would be able to catch a rabit without a weapon or a trap to catch it with. We also use our intelligence to keep animals in places were they can't run away from us. We have a body to climb trees and pick fruit (as was stated before)

3. unfortunately most animals don't die quick and painless (like Mobius suggested) and most of them have terrible lives because of the obsession humans have with making money. Most of them are treated as lifeless products; I'm sure I don't have to list all the things that we do to them in their short lifes. In some countries it might be worse than others, but generally it is too terrible for words what happens behind closed doors. Buying meat is supporting the industry that has no respect whatsoever for animals. It makes you an accomplice to down right torture!

Well, I hope I haven't spoilt your day with all of this.
In the time to come I will have to reevaluate my relationship with plants, thanks to you!!  
A-M



 

[Mobius]

G,day everyone!

Hey look everyone,I really am not trying to convert anybody,just
putting my ideas in, with a few references.I would really like to
see some information on the vegetarian concept,supported by
factual evidence from doctors or scientists,people who have put it
to the test & have concrete evidence,not just assumptions or
personal feelings.

Winged wolf I'm not sure what you are getting at when you are talking
about me thinking we are carnivores & not omnivores,thats why I
put "all the best on your journeys,vegetarians & omnivores". at the
end of my first post.Predators was the term I used & ok it was probably generalizing things a bit,& there are a lot of animals that
have eyes in front & have canines but the majority of species with
eyes in front are carnivorous predators.As you pointed out some
primates are omnivores as well like chimpanzees,I have no knowledge
of IQ,s when it comes to the apes but aren,t chimpanzees more
intelligent than gorrillas?
As you pointed out also we have canines but small ones.If we were
exclusively vegetarian,we would need a different digestive system
than we have & full of enzymes & bacteria to break the food that we
would have to cosume all day,as in nature they don't have vitamin
supplements & enzyme free cheese.

I am fully willing to kill everything that I eat & have done my own
chickens,geese,pidgeons,snake,rabbit & kangaroo.But as I pointed out
before if we didn't centralize the killing as in abattoirs we would
have an outbreak of disease.

Distant bell,when you talk about "life energy" & the fresher something is or more alive is somehow containing more energy is
unfounded,is there any evidence of this that I could refer to?
Our bodies need Water,Carbohydrates,Lipids,Proteins & some vitamins
& minerals to convert it into energy through our Mitochondrias in
every cell.Meat might be dead a bit longer than the plant but it
still supplies virtually all the requirments we need & fast.

When I hear people talking about energy & raising energy etc. I
know this is true as I do it myself.This is fine for our symbiot
non physical selves but our physical self soon dies off quick & it is
quickly realised that living life energy is needed not just spiritual energy.

As stated in the article I posted,the majority of our land is fairly
dry & has sparse vegetation & this is the land most grazers live on.
The most fertile land is real estate first & or volcanic soils or
rich in sediments from floods.At the moment water table problems
have been causing salinity as farmers greedily speed up the process
& try for more & more in the name of profit.When they can no longer
yield crops after countless crop rotations & pumping super phosphates
into the soil to keep it alive,the land is deemed useless.
If a mass exodus from meat eating took place it would overburden
existing land & require even more chemicals.

Would vegans survive if an Electromagnetic pulse shut down all
electricity,or a huge natural disater that stops us using machines &
electricity,no more vitamin supplements,you will only get so far
making your own.

I honestly would love to see some URL,s that have scientific
evidence of these vegetarian beliefs,or books.

Anyway I just had spaghetti bolognaise for dinner,mmmmmmmahhhhhhhhhh,
then again..........no!mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmahhhhhhhhhh.hehehehe
While I was thinking about you vegetarians I thought of my mum the
vege,& 20 mins later she rang for a chat,so thanks guys & gals,I
love stirring ya's all up too!hehe I'll probably get a ring from my
sister in japan now I,m thinking of you all again & believe me it's
all positive & happy thoughts I'm sending to you all.

Take care

Mobius


 

[distant bell]

Aleister Crowley said that one can get almost "hig" from eating alot
of oysters- because they are full of prana.. I have never tried.

I don´t know about the Prana thing- It was more of a question then a statement. I was just playing around with the thought. Anyway - even
someone who eats meat eats a vegetable every now and then don´t they?

I too eat alot of "dead" food, like pasta, bread, ris... But I try to
eat alot of fresh fruit and vegetables to, because it feels healthy.

I know that some magickians use fresh blood to draw energy from to be able to materialize different thought constructins and demons into existens.

I think that If you would cut of the electricity most people would get ALOT of problens with there food. The average city dweller is wery dependent on the industry and infrastructure.

I have relatives who live on the country and grow there own vegetables and foods. It´s not wery hard to grow vegi food.

It is harder to breed cattle.. because you have to have alot of things to feed  it with- and that will be grown on land that could be used to grow vegi food directly.

I have been vegetarian for quite a long time, and my father even longer, and non of us have ever eaten any vitamin pills.. and we are
still alive. I think its a myth that people have to eat all these pills- just a way for the industry to make money.
Good health comes from a varied diet.

 


 

[A-M]

ok, Mobius, you want some scientific facts, here they are:

http://www.meatout.org   is a website with many links, one of them being:
http://www.pcrm.org/health/Info_on_Veg_Diets/faq.html
with FAQ's about vegetarian diets

but then, it's all a matter of who you want to believe, because no matter the subject there are always different opinions and opposing research facts to support them......
(as with the existance of more than 4 dimensions.....)  
A-M


 

[A-M]

Hey everybody, I just realised that I forgot to comment on the vitamine B12 issue.
The question was: if humans are vegetarians, why do they need B12, which is not found in plants.
The answer is that only VEGANS have a problem, i.e. people that don't eat ANY animal products.
VEGETARIANS however have no B12 problem, because it is found in dairy products and eggs!
So, since our ancestors used to climb in trees to pick fruit, they probably also bumped into some nice eggs every once in a while and ate them. (Whether this was a very ethic act is a different subject...)
The body stores B12 for 3 to 5 years so it would not be neccesary to eat eggs all year round.
And probably also an occasional insect slipped through.....As we only need a small amount of B12, this could also have been a good source!
Which makes me happy that I live in a time that I can cook my eggs and buy cheese!  
But then again.........maybe I lived in that time also....??!!  

goodnight to you all, it was nice talking to you!!
A-M


 

[Mobius]

G,day distant bell & A-M!

Distant bell,I absolutely love my vegies & fruits,grains etc,I love
all foods & have tried meats that some meat eaters wouldn't eat &
some vegies & fruits that vegetarians don't like,I am fortunate
in a way that I will try something first & comment second,even if
it looks bad.I have found there is only a few foods I will not
touch anymore as something in me has said "barf!",so far on my list
is Caviar,anchovies,crocodile,emu,pawpaw,raw sultanas,prunes,dates,
& unfortunately fresh apples.All of these things have made me sick
& subsequent attempts led to the same reaction,so I listen to my
body & what it wants & doesn't want.

Some cultures have an exclusively meat based diet,like mentioned in
the article & have little or no medical problems,personally I could
never do this,not much variety.

A-M thanks for that link,I really do want to hear the other side of
the debate & this site has a fair amount of links on it.I have put it
on my favourites to go back & check out all the links,but so far
in my reading of that site & it's links I didn't see any doctors or
scientists names in there,mainly dieticians.It says on the first
page it is supported by movie stars,buisness,health care providers etc ,not exactly doctors or scientists.I found one doctor but that
was his comments on animal cruelty.I also oppose things like
battery farms & animal experimentation & how giants like Mc Donalds &
KFC are huge exploiters of animals,which sickens me.

This is a good subject & I am learning more things so thanks
all for the input.

Good journeys

Mobius

 

[distant bell]

Hi Mobius!

My main objective against eateing meat is the cruelty to animlas
in the meat industry. I think it is wery horrible the way people
treat animals- as if they where any other production unit.
And well you and me seem to agree on that point.

I have seen a change in society that last years (at least here
ïn sweden). Vegetarian food is not considered that strange anymore.
Many stores sell "ekolokgicall" meat and diary products - it´s not wery much, but some years ago it didn´t even exist.

So people in general seem to start to think more about these issues, and many people, even if they ar meat eaters start to react on the
ways of the meat industry. This is very good- the only way to change
the market is to make the consumers change.



 

[Mobius]

Hi distant bell

Totally agree with you when it comes to the meat industry,I might
be an omnivore,but a lot needs to be done with the way we treat
animals,they might gather in herds but the definately don't gather
in tiny metal boxes & have high weight gaining food troughs
stuffed in their faces,it's just wrong & stinks to high heaven!
literally.

Profits & shareholders are all big buisness is concerned about
these days,this mass production & mass fishing of the seas will be
our own demise if we don't slow down dramatically.While I eat meat
I don't as much as the average Aussie & think most people eat way
too much & waste even more.

By the way distant bell,I love the way you substitute "w" for "v"
when it comes to "very"/"wery",makes me picture your accent a lot
easier & sounds like the accent is applied when you spell it like
that,don't change! My stepfather is in Sweden at the moment at
helicopter training school & has done a bit of travel out your way
since being there,says it's beautiful,but a bit cool at the moment,
but maybe thats just his aussie climatized body.hehe

Good journeys all

Mobius

 

[Winged_Wolf]

I, too, disagree with factory farming practices...but as vegetarianism doesn't agree with my body, I eat what I can afford.

When I have land, I fully intend to grow my own meat animals (chickens, perhaps a couple of cows, etc).

Many arguments for vegetarianism cite the smaller amount of land it takes to grow crops in comparison with the amount of land it takes to grow meat animals.  This looks compelling on the surface...but as with many things, there are hidden truths that are never addressed that belie this argument.

I live on the plains....rolling shortgrass prairie, not a tree as far as the eye can see.  It's a harsh place, but it's also a unique ecosystem.  It's an ecosystem that relies on the interaction of plants and animals.
Prairie dogs eat vegetation, leaving behind nutrient rich plants that they don't favor, and fertilizing the land with their droppings.  Bison eat the nutrient rich plants, and convert them into more fertilizer.  Various predators feed on the bison and prairie dogs.  This is a simplified version of what goes on, but it addresses the most important elements of the prairie ecosystem--the grasses and forbs, and the prairie dogs and bison and their predators.
Take out one of the keystones, and the prairie DIES.  Nutrients are no longer recycled, the soil fertility drops, the grasses become more sparse, humus level drops and moisture can no longer be retained, and then you have a DESERT.
You want to grow CROPS on this?  Then you've destroyed the ecosystem.  It's dead and gone.
But what if you put cattle on it?  Bison are few....and bison predators fewer still.  There ARE no more prairie wolves...we killed them all.
Put cattle on the land, then eat the cattle.  You actually MAINTAIN the prairie ecosystem, and you eat.  You can also eat bison, and many people do--quite tasty, and even better for the environment.
There is no agriculture less disruptive to a shortgrass prairie than ranching bison properly.  Without wolves to prey on them, bison might well outstrip the land's capacity to carry them, given time and left alone there.  Without bison, or some hooved animal like them, the prairie dies.
So, we prey on the bison, and the cycle is maintained.

This goes far, FAR beyond such a simple equation as the amount of land or material used to produce food.  This is about preserving the natural balance of ecosystems.  You CANNOT do that without animals.  And to exclude humans from that part of the food chain is great waste.  In many cases, we would have to kill animals and leave them, simply to prevent overgrazing, because we've killed off the predators that once helped keep them in check.  That would be a true insanity.

Personally, I'm into permaculture.  Permaculture is utilizing the land in a balanced fashion, in a completely sustainable fashion.  By raising plants and animals together, using their inputs and outputs to compliment one another, you create a situation where soil fertility increases and increases every year, yields increase and increase every year, wildlife is still able to thrive, because your cattle will graze in pastures that are friendly to them, your plants are healthy, your animals are healthy, and above all, you are healthy.
Cattle eat the grass down, and deposit fertilizer.  Then you move the cows, and bring in the chickens.
Chickens eat weed seeds and plants, scratch up the soil, and deposit fertilizer.  They stir up and scatter the cow droppings to even out the nutrient deposit.  Throw some hay over that, and move the chickens.
Next year, plant your crops there.  They will grow better than you can imagine.  When they're done, move the cows in to clean up the leftovers....then follow with the chickens.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
You can eat the cows and get milk from them, you can eat the chickens and their eggs, and you can feed both from crops you grew on the land they fertilized, and they'll need far less of that than a factory-farmed animal because they'll mostly graze (the chickens need more grain, but convert it better anyhow.  Cows actually need NO grain, but may need hay in the winter).  You can feed yourself veggies from there as well, because every year your soil fertility increases, until it's at the absolute maximum possible.  (And believe me, "modern" agriculture can't even come close to those kinds of yields).  And where does it all come from?  The sun.  That's how nature intended it to be, IMO.

I also disagree with the need for centralized abbatoirs.  Compost the byproducts of slaughter, and put them back on the land, instead.  They're good for the soil.  (Plus, they're inhumane...animals are seriously terrified by being transported to such places).  Disease?  Disease happens when you put too much of something in one place.  Overcrowding, stress, poor diet....overloaded immune systems.  That's what causes disease.  Fresh air, clean water and healthy food....those prevent disease.  Beneficial microbes in abudance prevent harmful ones from gaining a foothold.  
This is all well-proven.
Like eggs?  Raise a few hens in your backyard, and move their pen over your garden plots every day (chicken tractor).  Alternate beds every year--chickens on one section, crops on the other, then switch.  MUCH better than it would be without the chickens.  Plants and animals need one another.
We cut ourselves out of the food chain, but worse than that, we cut ourselves out of the nutrient cycle.  We take from the land and don't give it back what it needs.  Ok, there are arguments against using HUMAN waste to fertilize crops....but if we can get an animal/plant cycle going well, the little taken out by that ommission won't matter.  That cycle isn't just self-perpetuating, it increases over time--higher yields, richer soil, healthier animals that produce more, and on and on.

And that's why the strictly vegan view of growing food just doesn't work.




--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[Mobius]

G,day Winged Wolf! great post!

Sounds like you are very familiarized with the land & how it all
works,I hope to do something like what you have talked about too!
So it looks like if & when I ever get to that stage I will have to
get some tips off you as most of our land is fairly dry & most of
my life I've been a city boy.

As a kid I lived in Sydney & thought that this is how life is &
never really knew any other reality until my stepfather got
transfered to Katoomba & mountainous bushland.It changed me forever
& now I have moved away from there I cannot imagine going back to
the city to live.Even though I,m only 25km from the city I am
surrounded by bushland on the side of a smaller mountain now,if I
look to the right of my computer there is national park & no-one to
look through my windows,if I look to the left of me I have a 180
degree 80km view & you would need a high power telescope to see in.

While I have not much experience on the land,I have done a lot of
work for people on the land as a plumber/drainer/gasfitter.
I have seen & installed some incredible stuff & believe as well that
we now have the capabilities to have self sufficient houses.
Free energy through solar or one of the new technologies,water supply
from tanks,bores & water catching technologies which can be hidden,a
bio-sewerage system which either recycles waste water & makes the
rest fertile or a dry toilet which can also be used as fertilizer.
Then we have what winged wolf allready mentioned the natural cycle
of the food chain & your personal vege patch & you basically don't
need to have cities,well you still need them for all the other products but their size & rate of consumption & waste can be greatly
reduced.

By the way winged wolf did the USA have to import dung beetles like
us in Australia? or where there allready some there from the Bison
which could keep up with cows?.Here in Oz we never had any hoofed animals,they were all imported,but only now have they realized that
they have been wasting the land as there was no dung beetle to
process that amount of cow paddies back into the ground,so it just
used to sit there & fertilize about a square foot.

Some good thoughts there.
All the best on your journeys

Mobius


 

[SteppenWolf]

Excellent article on vegetarianism back there!  A friend's family is vegetarian and they all feel they have to take supplements to keep healthy.  My girlfriend has been vegetarian for over ten years, but she doesn't feel she needs to and seems pretty healthy.

What ticked me off about meat is that when eating out at restaurants it was really hard to get a balanced meal - like the standard thing tended to be lots of meat and some carbohydrate and stuff-all veges or salad.  Which ends up being rather rough on the old internals!  Now I can eat lots of fruit & veges and hardly any meat my tummy is much happier!  And it's good that restaurants have change in the last 10 years - now we are spoiled for choice whether we want meat or not.  

[A-M]

Hello everybody,
I am a vegetarian and do not intend to change that for ANY reason, but I'm interested in your experiences/opninions on this issue related to energy development and obe's.
According to some people (book author's!) you need animal protein to build up the energy needed for ap's.
I guess for people with a natural ability to project it doesn't matter either way, but what about a person without this natural tendency?
I'm looking forward to your reactions!!
A-M

ps I haven't read all Robert's material yet: does he have an opninion on this?