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Author Topic: what happends at time of death?  (Read 5030 times)
tenshi_R
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« on: November 02, 2010, 03:06:06 »

i was previewing the book called "how to manage your d.i.c.k."  and an interesting point was brought up.
the author asked how many people seen a person on his last breath and what happends after.

take an old person for example.
i personally havent attended any last breath moments but i seen dead people in my life for sure.

so what exactly happends at the moment?

does your brain send out a command to shut down to the rest of the organs? or does it shut down itsself leaving the rest of the body without control.
and what if you artificially restarted the heart after few seconds to keep the blood pumping would that reverse the process?



is there a study on this or anything im interested in what exactly happends.
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lily moonsong
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 13:18:04 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfD8qLA_aQo
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 13:18:04 »

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Alakazam
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2010, 22:26:46 »

so what exactly happends at the moment?

does your brain send out a command to shut down to the rest of the organs? or does it shut down itsself leaving the rest of the body without control.

The brain simply stops sending out signals. Without the brain to control it, the rest of the body stops functioning. The heart, lungs, and other organs simply stop, since they no longer have any source of animation.

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and what if you artificially restarted the heart after few seconds to keep the blood pumping would that reverse the process?

It would take much more than just re-starting the heart. You'd have to get the other organs working again as well.

If you can do that, though, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't, except for the fact that the brain deteriorates very quickly after death. Even if you can get the other organs working on a level that can support the brain, it's probably been too long, and the brain has probably deteriorated past the point where you would have anything other than a vegetable.

That's the purely biological bit, anyway. I haven't seen lily's linked video yet, so I'll watch that and post my thoughts on it in a second.
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Alakazam
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2010, 22:53:37 »

So here are my thoughts on the video.

Before I begin, though, I'd like to restate what I said in my intro thread, because I'm new here and it's unlikely that anyone reading this actually saw that.

I do not believe in the afterlife, spirits, souls, energy healing, or anything like them. But I participate in forums like this, because I find the subject incredibly interesting. I am not here to insult anyone's beliefs, but I sometimes come across as cold or mean. I don't mean to, so please don't think that I am here to bash your beliefs mindlessly. I am going to speak my mind, though.


I'm skipping over the introduction to get to the meat of it. I'll pick up at 1:34, with Ms. Dourif's statement:

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"We started to look at, person by person, what happened when people pass over... famous ones, historical figures, saints, Hitler... across the board... the same thing happened. It was always the same."

What happened? She never says.

As for the experiment:

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"Each member of the team focused on targets that were unknown to them. Again, all they were given was a random set of eight numbers."

This seems very abrupt to me. What is the experiment that they are performing? What are they trying to prove, and how are they trying to prove it? The video offers no explanation. Presumably they are attempting to prove the existence of the afterlife, but the video fails to explain how the eight numbers do that, and it never explains what the "targets" are, or what they are supposed to prove, either.

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"Working by themselves, they collected data that had no apparent meaning. Different colors, textures, objects, dimensions - even emotions were recorded and organized. It wasn't until the analysis phase of each session that their work began to make sense."

What data are they attempting to collect? To validate what hypothesis? What method are they using to collect the data? What sorts of quality control insurances were there? What data would have proven the hypothesis, and what data would have invalidated it? The video never explains.

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"After many hours of exhaustive effort, their sessions revealed specific types of data. The complex jigsaw puzzle was slowly pieced together, and the team became witness to an amazing series of events. As the drama unfolded in front of them, the realization of what they had discovered inspired awe and reverence..."

As far as I can tell, it continues like that. The gist of the video appears to be that the team members came up with similar "results" after each session, and these pointed - in some undefined fashion - to the final "theory" of what happens when you die.

So... my final opinion on the video is that it is largely nonsensical. I don't think that the experiment was carried out in any way that could produce any kind of useful, verifiable information. However, from the jagged nature of the video, it appears that this may have been a version which was trimmed down so as to fit within the ten-minute time limit for YouTube. Lily, do you have a link to a more complete version? If so, I'd very much like to see it.
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 00:38:47 »

I thought the video was fine... it's a recounting of their view on what happens when a person dies.  Regardless of whatever scientific reasoning they come up with, at the base, THAT is what the video is.

It's a view that I whole-fully disagree with, but it's a view none-the-less.

I think you're trying to look too deep into the video, Alakazam.
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Alakazam
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 00:44:25 »

I thought the video was fine... it's a recounting of their view on what happens when a person dies.  Regardless of whatever scientific reasoning they come up with, at the base, THAT is what the video is.

I don't think so. The video attempts to make itself look like a scientific experiment. While it is definitely about what they think of the afterlife - I never said it wasn't - it tries to give their view a false scientific basis. I'm objecting to their faulty reasoning, not their belief.

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I think you're trying to look too deep into the video, Alakazam.

Again, I disagree. The video is titled "PSI TECH - Remote Viewing the Afterlife: What Happens When We Die?". In addition, the movie description reads:

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A PSI TECH Investigates Special Report For thousands of years, man has sought the answer to the ultimate question: what happens when we die? Some religious texts describe an afterlife that is a reward for only those who are pure in heart and repentant for their sins. Some describe reincarnation and past lives; a process of continual rebirth on Earth for the purpose of learning new lessons. And there are those who believe that upon the moment of death, everything simply fades to black our memories and consciousness cease to exist. This is the ultimate human enigma. For the first time, a tool has been able to penetrate the unseen events which take place at the cessation of life in human beings. Using Technical Remote Viewing, a PSI TECH special operations team targeted the death event specifically to determine what happens after a person dies. The results were reassuring to some, and astonishing to others. In this PSI TECH Investigates special report, we reveal the mystery of life after death.

This is definitely an attempt to make it sound as though they had definitively, scientifically proven that this is the correct view of the afterlife.

I have no issue with people believing things like this. I'm not objecting to them believing that two angels show up at the moment of death, hang around for twenty-four hours, then take the soul and the memories on their separate paths to the afterlife. I'm objecting to them using phony scientific methods to try and justify that belief.
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 00:54:14 »

I'm curious as to the reason behind why you're so concerned about HOW they go about discussing their opinion/beliefs in the video.
The video clearly had no impact upon your opinion of the subject... or are you concerned that, perhaps, other people might "fall" for their ploy?  Although, I'm at a loss for why you would worry about such a thing.

In other words, (as you said in your intro thread), what are you trying to debunk exactly?  Smiley
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Alakazam
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 01:14:50 »

I'm curious as to the reason behind why you're so concerned about HOW they go about discussing their opinion/beliefs in the video.
The video clearly had no impact upon your opinion of the subject...

I don't care about them discussing their beliefs, but that's not what they're doing. They're talking about their beliefs and trying to pass them off as scientifically valid. It's the latter bit that I object to, not the former.

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or are you concerned that, perhaps, other people might "fall" for their ploy?  Although, I'm at a loss for why you would worry about such a thing.

No. There are times when I do attempt to debunk things for that very reason - for example, belief in faith healers like Peter Popoff can seriously damage ones' health, and I can't just sit by and watch him hurt people - but this isn't hurting anyone.

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In other words, (as you said in your intro thread), what are you trying to debunk exactly?  Smiley

I'm arguing against the "science" in the video for the same reason that I would correct someone who made an obvious math mistake. They're wrong, and they're going to continue being wrong until someone sets the record straight. Worse, they can convince others that they're right, and then your entire class is flunking ENGR 201.

In this specific instance, I can't respond directly to the makers, but I can show the people here what's wrong with their methods. This is not how science works. I'm not particularly concerned if anyone chooses to believe the bit about the angels, but people who buy into the experiment bit can get a very distorted view of the way the world works. So... yes, I guess I am slightly concerned that someone might "fall for it".
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 01:24:59 »

I don't care about them discussing their beliefs, but that's not what they're doing. They're talking about their beliefs and trying to pass them off as scientifically valid. It's the latter bit that I object to, not the former.
You're barking up the wrong tree then.
I suggest messaging the people who did the video.  Wink

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No. There are times when I do attempt to debunk things for that very reason - for example, belief in faith healers like Peter Popoff can seriously damage ones' health, and I can't just sit by and watch him hurt people - but this isn't hurting anyone.
Understandable.

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I'm arguing against the "science" in the video for the same reason that I would correct someone who made an obvious math mistake. They're wrong, and they're going to continue being wrong until someone sets the record straight. Worse, they can convince others that they're right, and then your entire class is flunking ENGR 201.

In this specific instance, I can't respond directly to the makers, but I can show the people here what's wrong with their methods. This is not how science works. I'm not particularly concerned if anyone chooses to believe the bit about the angels, but people who buy into the experiment bit can get a very distorted view of the way the world works. So... yes, I guess I am slightly concerned that someone might "fall for it".
I didn't see much actual science in the video... apart from some documentation they did.  But as I said, it is what it is.  And as you said, it's not exactly harming anyone...
In any case, personally, I took the video as a purely spiritual expression of their opinion.

You can certainly try to respond directly to the makers of the video.  You have their Youtube channel and the website address.  Smiley

I'll have to give the video a second go around, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow. 
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2010, 01:33:19 »

You're barking up the wrong tree then.
I suggest messaging the people who did the video.  Wink

I've actually attempted that with several videos (on homeopathy, not this). In my experience, the video makers are either so set in their beliefs as to make all discussion impossible or know that they're lying already and simply don't care.

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I didn't see much actual science in the video... apart from some documentation they did.

Exactly. There is no actual science in the video. But it is, quite clearly, trying to pass off their non-scientific nonsense as legitimate science.

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But as I said, it is what it is.  And as you said, it's not exactly harming anyone...

Except in that it can convince people that these people have actually done something that is scientifically legitimate. I consider "spreading false information" to be harm.

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In any case, personally, I took the video as a purely spiritual expression of their opinion.

I didn't. While that's part of it, they try to dress it up as science.
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2010, 03:55:06 »

I've actually attempted that with several videos (on homeopathy, not this). In my experience, the video makers are either so set in their beliefs as to make all discussion impossible or know that they're lying already and simply don't care.
Generally, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and believe it's the first option.  There is nothing wrong with having confidence in your beliefs.
Hell, I get blasted for that here all the time.  Smiley

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Exactly. There is no actual science in the video. But it is, quite clearly, trying to pass off their non-scientific nonsense as legitimate science.
Still, I don't understand why you're so willing to put so much energy into something that really has no bearing on you what-so-ever.  Smiley

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Except in that it can convince people that these people have actually done something that is scientifically legitimate. I consider "spreading false information" to be harm.
Really?  That's the honest to goodness truth?
You might want to look a little deeper into that directive of yours... there might be something wrong with it.

My point here this: who cares?  Let people believe what they want to believe... they'll either come around eventually, or they won't. 
You trying to 'save' them isn't going to do a lick of good if they don't want to listen in the first place, you're just wasting your breath.

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I didn't. While that's part of it, they try to dress it up as science.
To each their own, I guess.  Smiley
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Alakazam
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 15:41:56 »

Generally, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and believe it's the first option.  There is nothing wrong with having confidence in your beliefs.
Hell, I get blasted for that here all the time.  Smiley

I don't think there's anything wrong with having confidence in your beliefs either. That's what I've been trying to say this entire time: I don't mind them believing the bit about the angels. The bit I'm against is their unscientific "experiment", which gives a false image of what the scientific process actually is.

But that's not what I was talking about. I mean that these people really, truly, were lying, and knew they were lying, and didn't care, because they made money off the people that they were scamming.

It was not a fun conversation.

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Still, I don't understand why you're so willing to put so much energy into something that really has no bearing on you what-so-ever.  Smiley

I don't either, really. I just am.

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Really?  That's the honest to goodness truth?

Yes.

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You might want to look a little deeper into that directive of yours... there might be something wrong with it.

I don't see it. Can you explain?

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My point here this: who cares?  Let people believe what they want to believe... they'll either come around eventually, or they won't. 
You trying to 'save' them isn't going to do a lick of good if they don't want to listen in the first place, you're just wasting your breath.

You still don't seem to understand. I don't care if they believe in the angels. I care that these people are spreading false information about what constitutes scientific, valid proof of that belief.

I don't care if people believe. I care if they lie about having proof of that belief.

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To each their own, I guess.  Smiley

Yep.
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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 15:59:28 »

There are so many scams going on around the world we can't keep track of. Some of them make use of the internet, reaching great audience. I don't think it's worth the hassle to prove all those people wrong. I have more important issues in my life that deserve my attention rather than playing cops against crooks on the internet.

And when it comes down to personal beliefs, than I just can't take it. I choose to let people believe what they choose to believe and learn from their experiences.

The video is a take on the afterlife, people should watch it and then give it some thought while comparing it to all their knowledge on the subject, coming up with one final position on it.
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 22:45:29 »

I've actually attempted that with several videos (on homeopathy, not this). In my experience, the video makers are either so set in their beliefs as to make all discussion impossible or know that they're lying already and simply don't care.

Exactly. There is no actual science in the video. But it is, quite clearly, trying to pass off their non-scientific nonsense as legitimate science.

Except in that it can convince people that these people have actually done something that is scientifically legitimate. I consider "spreading false information" to be harm.

I didn't. While that's part of it, they try to dress it up as science.

Come on man, angels and stuff, it is so obviously unscientific I dont see why someone who is scientifically inclined like yourself would even attempt to debunk this or imply that theyre using "faulty reasoning" when theyre not using real science at all. There is no point, I repeat, no point in adressing this particular video from a scientific standpoint, as it is so blatantly obvious that this is just their personal beliefs.

What is the point of your debunking exactly? This is a website for discussion of various topics related to OOBE's and for discussing methods of practicing this. No one trys to push beliefs on each other and those that do usually dont last long. You can choose to not believe in the nonphysical but like I said, this website is mainly for disccusing techniques to reach the OOB state. If you dont believe this state is even attainable and that we are all lying, then you might as well leave now, if you want to put effort and hard work into reaching this state, our only evidence is our word, but without trying you will never know the answers you seek.
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 05:17:18 »

Every time I read an account on the subject of death and dying, it is always different. I didn't agree with some of the opinions and/or beliefs expressed in the video, something about it seemed inconsistent with my own experiences and observations concerning states of consciousness. When I meditate, I go inside of myself, to a "place" of stillness. Within that stillness, things (energy, usually in the form of thoughts and emotions) enter and leave. I do not pursue them, I just let them do what they do and do little more than acknowledge that they are there. In the video, they describe two angels coming in and taking the two parts of a person somewhere. When I meditate, it is usually on existence, not death. To me, death does not actually exist. Yes, the body eventually ceases to function and succumbs to deterioration, or destruction in one form or another. I believe that in the state of death, one experiences peace, joy, and love, and being suspended in time, which were all mentioned in the video. But I believe that whatever remains is indestructible and indivisible.
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