Question about Phasing as a explanation model.

[Mustardseed]

I wrote this post but posted it probably in the wrong place, I have some questions about the phasing model  for you all.

Ok Now I ain't no mystic, never claimed to be one. I would however like to ask all you guys to explain me something.

You say that Monroe Bruce and others who you now term Mystics were wrong, no such thing as out of the body. 3 years ago when you were all just experimenting and someone came with such a claim he was met with ridicule, but now you have the very convenient Phasing Model (thanks Frank) to lean to and now suddenly the "Mystics" are out and you, all the "more enlightened people" rule. Your model of explanation the latest and most progressive model is the "in" thing.

It seems logical to me however, that your model, your belief system or non belief system (which is just another form of belief albeit negative in nature), is just another model to explain something we seem to not understand. What makes you right Frank or Adrian and whoever, and what makes Monroe Bruce etc wrong wrong. If you have the holy grail please let us know. Why should we believe a word of what you say, are you not just another guy with all the answers another Mystic trying to sell his "charms" packaged in nice books fancy titles and catchy advertising, and as I asked in some other thread, how does this attitude of selling the truth look on your karmic records.

I am seriously interested in this debate and I am curious if you will take this debate or delete my post. I know that whoever posts here are not allowed to question or criticize the moderators- so lets see. What do you think Nay Gandalf and all you others ................. how are we doing on the pulse. ?? Still fighting for the truth??? or what.......

Regards Mustardseed
_________________
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

[Lente]

I wrote this post but posted it probably in the wrong place, I have some questions about the phasing model  for you all.

Ok Now I ain't no mystic, never claimed to be one. I would however like to ask all you guys to explain me something.

You say that Monroe Bruce and others who you now term Mystics were wrong, no such thing as out of the body. 3 years ago when you were all just experimenting and someone came with such a claim he was met with ridicule, but now you have the very convenient Phasing Model (thanks Frank) to lean to and now suddenly the "Mystics" are out and you, all the "more enlightened people" rule. Your model of explanation the latest and most progressive model is the "in" thing.

The mystic bashing concerns me a little too, frank seems to take every opportunity to tell us how wrong mystics are, now I support franks work, but he could do without that, he should stick to teaching his stuff and leave the mystics to themselfs.

It seems logical to me however, that your model, your belief system or non belief system (which is just another form of belief albeit negative in nature I don't agree whit that, there is truth and there is belief ), is just another model to explain something we seem to not understand. Not just another model, a model that is more accurate, well that's what frank is going for anyway. What makes you right Frank or Adrian and whoever, and what makes Monroe Bruce etc wrong wrong. The truth! If you have the holy grail please let us know.  Why should we believe a word of what you say, are you not just another guy with all the answers another Mystic trying to sell his "charms" packaged in nice books fancy titles and catchy advertising, and as I asked in some other thread, how does this attitude of selling the truth look on your karmic records. You should believe it if you are convinced just like some of us that this is the way forward, if not, than just don't believe.

I am seriously interested in this debate and I am curious if you will take this debate or delete my post. I know that whoever posts here are not allowed to question or criticize the moderators- so lets see. What do you think Nay Gandalf and all you others ................. how are we doing on the pulse. ?? Still fighting for the truth??? or what.......

Regards Mustardseed
_________________
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

[Telos]

I think Mustardseed has a genuine concern which other members have presented in various ways.

How much is phasing reliant on its underlying philosophy?

If I missed your concern, Mustardseed, I hope you don't mind if I ask this question here anyways, because it seems very similar.

We do not have the luxury enjoyed in other fields of study of a developed and distinct philosophy to underpin our practical theories. There is science and philosophy of science. There is mathematics and there is philosophy of mathematics. However, there does not appear to be differentiation between astral projection and philosophy of astral projection; or indeed phasing and philosophy of phasing; or if I may choose the more general term, dreaming and philosophy of dreaming.

The reason for differentiating these two facets of a study is because, I think, it makes for a lot cleaner understanding and debate. It is indeed hard, nigh impossible, to discuss theories of science alongside philosophical theories of science in any meaningful direction. I sense a very similar, if not identical, situation here.

The philosophy espoused in this forum has actually been named - "Integral philosophy." While certainly a worthy field, I'm not sure that integration as a primary goal serves the origination of a philosophy of dreaming. Indeed, as I participate in this forum further, I am coming to the opinion that placing integration at a level of such high importance actually obstructs the conception of bold, new and deserving ideas.

It may be prudent to disintegrate a sub-forum and name it "Philosophy of Dreaming" a name I prefer to "Philosophy of Astral Projection" or "Philosophy of Lucid Dreaming" because it is courteously more integral. Thus, all philosophies of dreaming could be discussed, ranging from Eastern to Western tradtions; Psyhological to Spiritual; Scientific to Pragmatic; alongside original systems like the one that applies to Frank's model.

But the important distinction is that they would be philosophical systems which are directly used to underpin explanations and practical models of dreaming, and would not be full blown philosophies per se.

Does anyone think that such a forum distinction would be beneficial? Right now I am content to leave this thread about Frank's model, and differentiating phasing and philosophy phasing, should other members decide to go in that direction.

[Stookie]

A lot of people who come here (I assume), are trying to LEARN about astral travel, and do it on their own.  For me, even though Frank says he speaks the "truth", it's still "spiritual", "mystical", & everything else he says it isn't. I guess the main point being, it's beyond this world (or consciousness), and unprovable until you can experience it yourself.  

It seems to me that Frank is saying something like, it's not that the Mystics' experience isn't real, but it's not real in the way that they think it is. Like the way most people experience the Physical world.

Personally, I like thinking that it's all within myself, and I don't need to buy crystals and chant and sit in uncomfortable positions and worry about evil spirits. I've only had a few non-physical experiences, but it's good to know I did them on my own without relying on "mystical" stuff. I'm not saying that Frank has the definitive knowledge, but it's different than we've been hearing for thousands of years, and more relevant for a fast-paced western society.

Keep it up Frank. The amount "mystical" stuff out there grossly outweighs the amount of what you share. A place like this needs to exist.

[Mustardseed]

My point exactly. .........It seems that Frank has just adapted a model that is more consistant with the life he or we or some of us live, a different style. Fashion changes all the time. I totally get that its more in synck with the way life is lived, however that does not nessesarily make it true, albeit more palatable. There is a difference.

In his model I would assume that he counts Negs a thing of the mind. I woulod like to  ask him that. Bruce presented a whole picture in which Projection was a part. How does that fit Frank, are negs a fiction of your mind, and while we are at it how about spirit guides and other spiritual phenomena, how does all that fit.

Regards Mustardseed

[Gandalf]

MS_

Frank follows Monroe's approach in that he wants to 'strip everything down to the bare bones' so that everyone can have a chance of understanding it. Ok maybe he does go overboard sometimes in his caustic remarks about mystics and so on, but it has to be said that it is about time some of these self-proclaimed 'mystics' were knocked off their tree.

Remember that Monroe himself actually apologised if his stripped down 'mechanical' model sometimes  falls short of portraying the wonder of it all; that task is better suited to poets. Because of this, Monroe's approach can appear to some as rather cold and 'unmystical' if by 'mystical' you mean 'awe inspiring' or 'wondrous'.

However, in Monroe's opinion this is a necessary sacrifice so as to be able to explain a basic model or guide that will allow as many people as possible to go and experience the wider reality for themselves. Everyone can be assured that once they actually *experience* the wider reality for themselves, they will find that it is every bit as wondrous and awe inspiring as they might imagine it to be, more so in fact, when you think about it all. It's all very mystical in that sense, but in order for the most people to get the most benefit and so as to provide a solid practical guide that can allow people to go and see for themselves, rather than relying on what others have to say, it is necessary to adopt a solid, no nonsense, no frills approach. This might not suit everyone but it does suit a lot of people and it is democratic in the sense that it is designed to appeal to as wide a range of people as possible.. There are no degrees of knowledge or grades of initiation etc etc.

It is this 'graded' approach that comes under fire as this hierarchical system is unfair and elitist and completely unnecessary. This is what the phasing model approach tries to get around by being no nonsense and telling people like it is, so that they can then go out and check for themselves, not just go by the rantings of some guy from the pulpit.

Doug

[Frank]

Mustardseed:

Like the Major, I'm really not sure what you are on about. Monroe realised later there was no such thing as "out of body".

Moreover, I have repeatedly stated on this forum that all my early work was based on Monroe and I regard him as a great pioneer. So how you can rightfully accuse me of being against Monroe on some significant or fundamental issue such as this, I'm at a loss to fathom.

Yours,
Frank

[Nay]

I think what MS is saying Frank, is perhaps you are a bit harsh and too quick to shoot down someone else's belief or experiences...?

Think about our private chats that we've had in the past

Nay

[Frank]

Nay:

I've got a load of work to get on with so I'm gonna just get on and do that and leave Mustardseed to it. As I said I simply don't know what he is going on about anyway in claiming that I am somehow running contrary to Monroe.

My other concern is this was not an Astral Consciousness issue and today I see the post has now been moved to a more appropriate forum.

By definition our private chats should remain private and not referred to in the public forum. I'm surprised you even mention it. Rest assured there shall be no more private chats in future.

Yours,
Frank

[Mustardseed]

Hi guys
Yea I am not so sure I know what I am talking about either   ha no....just kidin'. Doug I find your post rather interesting. Let me ask you how I should understand it. Are you saying that Mystics like R.Bruce are trying to hide the truth and make people adhere to his secret society before he will let them in on the real McCoy, if you are talking about Robert Doug, you are at the very least silly .............he wrote the very books that gave many of us a possibility to live with what was happening to us.

If anyone has attempted to be no mystic in actual reality, yet still being a very mystical person in actual fact, I would say it was him. The fact is that Robert as many of us have had experiences that he has done his best to understand. His writings are still a great comfort to many Doug, and no matter what you cal him, he has a heart. You know I have my issues with certain things as well, no apologies, I do not see eye to eye with him on everything, but on enough things to recognize a kindred Spirit.

Mystic or not he is human he gets ticked has his issues as do we all, but I have reached out and felt him and he is real, I trust you on many things trust me on that one. Why bash a man who has helped so many, explain that to me . Whats in it for you Frank. ? Adrian?

I know I am not so easy to get along with either (right Nay   ) but I try. Everything you say guys I think about, I really do, yet there are white spots on your map, it does not fit completely.

Frank tell me have you ever had a conscious exit? can you recognize the scenario of watching your body slowly elevating out of your physical body. If you have, explain me again what is NOT real about that, indulge me.

I want friends good vibrations I do not want to leave a trail of contention. I have learned so  so much from you all about so much, learned to talk without getting too sensitive argue a point without negativity etc

I want the truth as I assume you all do, so as I said enlighten me.

Regards Mustardseed

[Nay]

Nay:

I've got a load of work to get on with so I'm gonna just get on and do that and leave Mustardseed to it. As I said I simply don't know what he is going on about anyway in claiming that I am somehow running contrary to Monroe.

My other concern is this was not an Astral Consciousness issue and today I see the post has now been moved to a more appropriate forum.

By definition our private chats should remain private and not referred to in the public forum. I'm surprised you even mention it. Rest assured there shall be no more private chats in future.

Yours,
Frank

I just got a vision of you spanking me and sending me to my room.

I wasn't referring to just you and me as in PM's, so I don't know why you are getting upset..

[Mustardseed]

Dear Doug

First let me ask you to define the difference between Robert Bruce Frank and Adrian. Did Robert not start the site......granted with Adrian help? Did he demand special initiation from you?

As far as I see he damn near posted his entire book on the site and poured out all that he knew to anyone that asked you included, or am I wrong.

 You said ..... rather than relying on what others have to say, it is necessary to adopt a solid, no nonsense, no frills approach. This might not suit everyone but it does suit a lot of people.........There are no degrees of knowledge or grades of initiation etc etc.

It is this 'graded' approach that comes under fire as this hierarchical system is unfair and elitist and completely unnecessary. This is what the phasing model approach tries to get around by being no nonsense and telling people like it is, so that they can then go out and check for themselves, not just go by the rantings of some guy from the pulpit.

Dear Doug are you really so young that you do no realize that Frank and Adrian are using you to sell their books, I just cant believe that you do not see that. Maybe you in your pride (and I sense a somehow Leo vibration there) maybe you think that they are somehow "better", if so I say you are the new inquisition, take your best shot. Burn the heretics anyone who does not see it like I do and by the way the earth is still flat  

Whats your point my friend

Regards Mustardseed

PS still waiting to hear about the negs and spirit guides Frank how does that fit. Have you ever seen one, or have you ever seen a person possessed by one. In my opinion and I have seen a few, this would have to fit because its not in your mind or mine Frank, its out there, and its not always happening while you are on your bed or chair Phasing.

[Mustardseed]

In the first post my question was:


It seems logical to me however, that your model, (Phasing) your belief system or non belief system ................. is just another model to explain something we seem to not understand. What makes you right Frank ? or Adrian and whoever, and what makes Monroe (Robert) Bruce (i.e. The Mystics) etc wrong wrong. ...................Why should we believe a word of what you say?, are you not just another guy with all the answers another Mystic trying to sell his "charms" packaged in nice books fancy titles and catchy advertising, and as I asked in some other thread, how does this attitude of selling the truth look on your karmic records.

If you don't understand the question Major I can re write it in another form.

I am still waiting for Frank or Adrian to address this issue.

Regards Mustardseed

[Gandalf]

Hi MS_

Frank and Adrian do not 'use me to sell their books'. Neither does RB. In fact I don't always agree with their opinions on all things all of the time, and I have no problem telling them so. I do however find their approach useful and I take what I like from their work, but for me the drive is always to get *personal experience* in something before taking it as a given. For that reason I do respect others knowledge if it is stated to be based on their own direct experience, but even then I accept it as a *guide only* and I do not accept it as 'written in stone'. In fact, these people themselves do not for the most part believe that everything is set in stone and they continually update and modify their own findings as they progress. Knowledge is always advancing. However, such guides are very useful, ‘road maps’ as Monroe would call them, and like all tourist books, the way they are presented and the exact way they come across will vary from writer to writer and you just have to go with the approach that suits you.

However it has to be said that there are a lot of charlatans out there who are fakes who just want to jump on the guru train and rip everyone off. Frank detests such people and this often leads him to make what can sometimes be sweeping statements about all so called mystics; these can be a tad too extreme sometimes and I have no problem in telling him so and I'm sure Frank doesn't mind me telling him so either.

As for me criticising RB, I never actually said I was talking about RB at all. I am talking about the big time fake gurus; you just assume that I am also talking about RB, but I didn’t say that.

Doug

[James S]

Runlola,
Love what you said!! It all really resonated with me.
Don't stop being weird either. If what you're doing is weird, then weird is good. If you don't like "weird", a friend of mine refers to us as being "spooky". I like that term.

Mustardseed,
I've looked at both methods - traditional OBE & phasing. Can't say I ever had any success with OBE's. I own a copy of RB's Astral Dynamics, and I learned a lot from it, but it was ultimately what Frank brought to this site regarding Monroe's phasing method that prooved to be of most benefit to me. It's a personal choice thing though. We all need options in our lives.

While I would like to see Frank being more tolerant of the beliefs of others, I do understand why he's taken the approach he has, and I see a lot of validity in it. He's stripped something back to its core by cutting out all the mystical padding that tends to overrun such concepts. It's like giving someone a plain pastry mix to work with. They can add their own flavouring afterwards, which is much easier than taking someone elses flavouring that you might not like and trying to take it out of the mix.

I work as a psychic / medium / reiki & crystal healer, so I guess I'm as mystical (or spooky) as you can get. I use phasing as a tool to help me in what I do, because unlike full OBE's it allows me to remain grounded, which is essential to providing spiritual healing.

But again, that's my path, and it's not everyone's cup of tea. If you prefer RB's more traditional OBE approach, and that works for you, go with it! It's great you've found something that works for you.

Blessings,
James.