a brief analysis of "love under will"?

[lifebreath]

Imo, "love under will" is simply a euphemism for arbitrary, self-willed anarchy! "'Do what thou wilt'" shall be the whole of the law."  Just as bad as despotism at the other end of the pole. No balance of personal rights with responsibilities to the greater good. "Self-will run riot," as the 12-step programs put it.

I agree with you in that it is an inversion of the proper order, "will directed by love." People fear to "lose" their "freedom," but in reality, the will always remains free, and the choice to submit the will to love is freely done and brings true joy and fulfillment to the soul.

[xander]

Lifebreath may I suggest you research the subject, as it is not a call to anarchy.

You're confusing WILL with EGO.

The Law states that Love is union, thus if you hurt another or take away their WILL you are simply doing the same to yourself. For example if a person, be they criminal or cop, breaks into my house and rummages through my belongings he has thus removed his right to not allow people to break into his house and rummage through his belongings.

In this corporate run superstate we call Amerika the wealthy and powerful commit all manner of acts and are not punished yet the poor and oppressed are condemmed with and iron fist.

I can think of numerous examples in which celebrities have commited crimes and had they been common people they would have been in jail...period...end of story. Celebrities and CEO's get a long melodramatic charade of teh legal system.

Love under Will is TRUE JUSTICE. Justice for the self and for others.
in a sense it is similar to true collectivism where if something happens to one member of teh tribe it happens to the entire tribe, not just teh ones too poor to grease the right greedy palms.

Then again one has to look at ones essential worldveiw. The Law states that the only "sin" is restriction and that Man is god. These two concepts fly in the face of most people considering how entrenched the xian dogmatisms are in society.

Also wehn I Love under Will I have the power to defend myself and others. I can do as I please as long as it does not interfere with anothers will. That means I have true freedom and am responsible for myself. When I am responsible for myself I work a lot harder at being aware. When others are responsile for me then I have no obligation to myself but only to them thus I become a slave no matter how many "rights" are signed into law.

Xander

[lifebreath]

Xander, my Thelemite friend (may I so presume?) ...

Why is your reply no surprise? [] (As mine is probably likewise to you) For what it's worth to you, my opinion IS the result of almost 20 years of direct investigation and research - I'm not some mindless "fundie xian," as you so lovingly like to say. (Don't   quite understand why you can't just say Christian, except that you must have a desire to blot out the name of Christ ... ah, so THAT's what they mean by "anti-Christ!")

I am not ignorant of the basis of magic - in theory and practice - but view what Valentin Tomberg terms "arbitrary personal magic," (Crowley's "thelema," or personal will, in your terms) as far inferior to "divine" magic, where the individual will is aligned with and directed by, through the union of love, the Divine Will, and power and knowledge is excercised in that context.

If you wish to understand my views, Tomberg, in his anonymous magnum opus, "Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism," pretty much sums them up. Of course, you'll have to wade through the 600+ pages ...

True justice is the integration of Mercy with Severity, Love and Law, Force and Form, applied with wisdom and insight. As Eliphas Levi wrote in "The Magic Ritual of the Sanctum Regnum:"
 

quote:Liberty, Power, Despotism. Power is correct equilibrium between Despotism and Liberty. This is the solution of the Enigma of the three letters that Cagliostro the Initiate formulated to represent the Kabalah of political and social stability.

You, it seems, would have all Liberty with no constraint of Law.

Laws are necessary in society because their are MANY who would, as you rightly indicate, impose their wills upon others who are vulnerable. Yours, like communism, may be a lovely ideal, were all humans perfectly enlightened (and at this point, our definitions of "enlightened" would surely differ!). But alas, we see the REALITY of how the ideal of communism actually manifests - it degrades into despotism and totalitarianism, because there are always those whose base selfishness, greed and corruption - the "will to power" - leads to that end. In an analogous way, "Love under Will," on a large scale as a philosophy of societal structure, would truly collapse into anarchy.

Thus, society, rightly places Law into place to restrain lawlessness for the protection of its people - kind of a babysitter for those who need it. When individuals are truly enlightened, they have the Law withing themselves, live accordingly and look to the good of others, often sacrificing their own desires and passions for the greater good.

"Will under Love" is, imo, a superior motto.

[monicat777]

That's what is so interesting about the statement.. Love under will.

Let's go back a step...Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.  Love is the law,love under will.  There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

If do what thou wilt is the law and synonymously love is the law, then wouldn't love guide one's will??

I don't think it means put your will before your true knowledge of right and wrong...like an anything goes sort of concept.

I don't think the statement Love under will needs to be altered in any way either. Out of context, maybe. But, in context I think it makes sense.

just a thought.

also,  i think i'm going to be shunned by all as a center of pestilence for discussing this.  Hope not.

[jilola]

I think an important distinction needs to be made.
The text "Do what thou Wilt..." has the Will part capitalized. That,in my interpretation, means that it's a separate Will from the mundane "I want more money" kind of will.

The Law speaks of Love under Will. The Will is the underlying Will of souls to advance and learn. Some call it Intent.
Thus the statement Love under Will means that te Love we feel toward others should be conscious and mindful of the paths of advanced each of us have, not blind and unthinking love.

The Do what Thou Wilt part requires us to be true to our spiritual life and advancement. Again Will and will are different beasts altogether.

L&L
Jouni

[Cruel Tendencies]

As jilola has pointed out, the "W" in "Will" is capitalized.  A common misperception about the Law of Thelema is that it refers to desire, rather than True Will.  The True Will of a person can be described as the purpose that he or she was put in this world to perform.  It goes that when a person is performing his True Will, that nothing can oppose them and they can do anything else that they want, as long as they do what they're put here to do.  The catch is that every person's True Will involves loving other people, and if you do something that's not motivated by love, then it's not connected with your Will, but is from desire.

As for it being "Love under Will" rather than "Will under Love," Will can be associated with Kether on the Tree of Life, and Love with Tiphereth.  They are the same, but Love is an experience while Will is more abstract.  What we're attempting to immitate in the Great Work is the Will of God, which is Love.  In other words, by experiencing and expressing Love, we're experiencing and becoming a part of the Will of God, which is the essence of God, just as your True Will is the essence of a man.

Believe it or not, Thelema has a lot in common with esoteric Christianity, though you wouldn't believe it by looking at the founder of the religion (Crowley).  It's all about stripping away the layers of Ego that the world has placed on you, and finding the person that God created and intended for you to be.


Paul

[monicat777]

Is it....place your love beneath your will (meaning make it less significant), or make love the root or guidance of your will??

Personally, I believe it's the latter.  However, I'm interested to hear other opinions regarding the quote itself. Even if it doesn't fit into my personal analysis.

I think this should be interesting.

thanks- Monicat777

[hmmm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBK5aKOr2Fw

if you can't work it not I'm not going to help you

[CFTraveler]

"Self-will run riot," as the 12-step programs put it.

This is so false it isn't even funny.  Or maybe it's hilarious.

[Chaos Mage]

I do think that Crowley intended for it to be a salvation of sorts.
For if we Love Under Will, then as stated on this thread, you are directing your Will, the source of magick and force, to heal, harmonize, and balance others.
Love is never a touchy subject for those who believe in it.
Some people like to dally around the subject and say "Oh I don't know what love is."
If you love anything, then you want it to be safe, happy, perfect, and you honor love rather than honoring lies.
The statement "Love Under Will", means that you basically do the same thing that you do when you 'invoke Christ in prayer'.  You become the authority, the righteous truth, and the deliberate trust that speaks from a center of understanding and a will to love, rather than to hate or to obstruct true justice.
So when you love someone, you give them freedom, even if you are bound to your own path.  Giving someone freedom, they will make mistakes, their own life may even be put into peril by their own actions, yet, they are then free to discover their own true will, and it leads them back to Love Under Will.

If we want to consider it, "Will", then, is the balance of Love.  It is not different than saying that Chaos Magick one is the energy, the other is the direction.  If you Love Under Will, then the most benevolent types of magick will occur.  Here is an example...

I had a cat for several years named Loki.  One day, a young couple showed up at my house and wanted a cat. I loved Loki very much, she was so precious to me.  But I sacrificed her to these people, knowing, in Love, that I would see her again.  So six months later, I was in town at the liquor store, and who do I see at the door?  Loki.  So Loki looked up at me with confused eyes.  And for the time that she was living on the streets, she made many friends and made a lot of people happy.  A precious cat, which I got back and now she is sitting right here with me.  Some people would consider this act, 'giving the cat away, recieving the cat back by a chance trip to town', to be magick.  It is simply that if you Love, then you build the connectivity to the higher dimension of insight that has a more expansive energy dimension, and miracles such as this can occur freely and abundantly so that all things are set into motion, and come back to a place of stillness and peace.  My cat is home, I can't complain.

[CFTraveler]

Some people would consider this act, 'giving the cat away, recieving the cat back by a chance trip to town', to be magick.

Ten times running over....Luke 6:38