The validity of Magic

[MisterJingo]

So the evidence would point to reality being the creator of the mind?

At this point in time it is all conjecture. All these beliefs and constructs of reality might have some truth, or might be absolutely wrong. They are mans attempt to draw meaning from the universe based upon what evidence is currently available, and until recent times, deciphered through mans own mystical systems.
There seems to be more evidence pointing towards reality being the creator of the mind – but only if one is totally rational and demands objective proof of anything which seems to bend or break the laws of physics.

or is the "source" just not perfect?

If the source did exist, attributing concepts to it (such as perfect) would be meaningless, as such concepts would only have meaning outside the source, and in an environment which had the sufficient complexity to comprehend such things i.e. perfection is a signifier relative to the observer.

If everything is part of the "source" then where does the collective unconscious come into play? is it the source? or if not then reality is either of the source or of the collective unconscious it cant be of both.

The collective consciousness would be some form of structure built from the stuff of the source, in such a view, reality would then be a creation of the collective consciousness, built from the stuff of the source i.e. for whatever reason some form of intelligent consciousness or consciousnesses spawned from the source, from these beings, various realities were created, one of which we inhabit.

Then if the collective unconscious creates or molds reality as we know it, then where does the source come into play?

As above, the source is simply the structure in which everything forms/is created. It is part of the creator and created.

No offense but i think you're going in circles.

Non-taken. I’m simply going over beliefs (not necessarily my own) which are used to support magic.

But there have been complete skeptics that have been down by magic or so I've read.
So either some where along the line they changed their beliefs radically or magic doesn't need to effect the other persons beliefs.

I’d be interesting in hearing about skeptics who have changed their beliefs to the opposite direction.
My previous example about beliefs being affected was a means of describing how one person can inflict seemingly magical events on another through natural means with no distortion of reality – although both parties might be convinced there was. Derren Brown has shown such things many times, such as completely controlling a woman by manipulating a doll. She believed he was magically controlling her, so she allowed herself to be controlled seemingly against her own conscious will. But Derren was simply utilising her own belief is such magic to make her do whatever he wanted.

As I mentioned above, these are not necessarily beliefs I hold, but they are the beliefs which are have been used to explain the existence and mechanism of magick.

[Forgotten_Purpose]

At this point in time it is all conjecture. All these beliefs and constructs of reality might have some truth, or might be absolutely wrong. They are mans attempt to draw meaning from the universe based upon what evidence is currently available, and until recent times, deciphered through mans own mystical systems.
There seems to be more evidence pointing towards reality being the creator of the mind – but only if one is totally rational and demands objective proof of anything which seems to bend or break the laws of physics.

OK.

If the source did exist, attributing concepts to it (such as perfect) would be meaningless, as such concepts would only have meaning outside the source, and in an environment which had the sufficient complexity to comprehend such things i.e. perfection is a signifier relative to the observer.

Attributing such concepts is only for the benefit of the observer. This is true. I was just attempting to translate the concept into some more familiar words. I wouldn't call it useless.

The collective consciousness would be some form of structure built from the stuff of the source, in such a view, reality would then be a creation of the collective consciousness, built from the stuff of the source i.e. for whatever reason some form of intelligent consciousness or consciousnesses spawned from the source, from these beings, various realities were created, one of which we inhabit.

OK.

I’d be interesting in hearing about skeptics who have changed their beliefs to the opposite direction.
My previous example about beliefs being affected was a means of describing how one person can inflict seemingly magical events on another through natural means with no distortion of reality – although both parties might be convinced there was. Derren Brown has shown such things many times, such as completely controlling a woman by manipulating a doll. She believed he was magically controlling her, so she allowed herself to be controlled seemingly against her own conscious will. But Derren was simply utilising her own belief is such magic to make her do whatever he wanted.

I do not know any skeptics that have gone through such a transformation personally, but it was more of an example of what would have to happen for magic to be effective on a skeptic and still keep inside the Idea that reality is the creator of the mind.

[quoteI’m simply going over beliefs (not necessarily my own) which are used to support magic.
][/quote]

OK, but what are your very own ideas that support magic? As i think you said earlier you are a practitioner
of ceremonial magics?

[Forgotten_Purpose]

Hello? You guys still there? Its been a few days since I last heard from you. Anyone else wanna get in on the discussion?

[wow_nonamesleft]

I wouldn't mind trying to give this a go.  I'll just say what I think magic is and anything I think might have been a case of "magic".

  To me magic is making what you want happen and that can be pretty much anything, however I do believe that you can't break the laws of the universe, but you can make it seem so. Being a wizard means to be a creator of reality.
  I think something connected to magic is changing the way you look at life. I have a friend that thinks god and satan "speak" to him, though not audiable but by "showing" him things, just everday things but with some message in it(details aren't important). I have actually experienced a few messages with him and the only way I could understand is if he points it out.
  He says he also hears messages in music, but they are different from god/satan messages(universe speaking).  I personally experienced one recently and 'saw' it.
I said "I have to go"
    *he just finished picking a random song as i finish my line*
Then few seconds later... bam the lyrics go "you don't have to go".
I went home anyways ignoring it... as I get home I realize I dont have my key and I'm wating there for like an hour until my dad returns.  I felt strange ignoring it, the universe was speaking to me... 
So how does that relate to 'magic'? Well, songs (particularly rap/ r and b) are like his way of hearing from the universe, actually I think the term is "medium" and messages/answers are spoken thru music to him, as for me only when I'm with him I notice this.
 Here is an example of a spell- My brother told me about this and I'm pretty sure its from the book called 'Conversations with God'.
Its called the "I want" spell and its negative. When you say you want something your spell has been cast, so that is what you get a 'I want'. Want is the absence of something.  Personally think about this a see how it effects you, maybe start changing 'I want' into being thankful for what you have " I am thankful for having enough food today" or " I am happy that I have enough money today".  Since many people here are for having astral projections, lucid dreams and all that, change the 'I want' to I'll have a 'insert' tonight.  In matter of fact when I was telling a friend about this, he told me " when you told me I'll have a lucid dream I did"(he was having a hard time going lucid and I was trying to help him out).

There are lots of books on magic, like the one I have said earlier Conversations with God, but another one is called The Four Agreements and I'll list them here-
Be Impeccable With Your Word , Don’t Take Anything Personally ,Don’t Make Assumptions  and Always Do Your Best . If your not interested in getting the book some people have written reviews on it and you can get a better understanding that way. A book doesnt have to be specifically about "magic" it just has to do with how you can shape your reality and as I said "Being a wizard means to be a creator of reality".

Pretty random I guess  but w.e.

[CFTraveler]

Hi guys I'm back, at least for a little while.

Then if the collective unconscious creates or molds reality as we know it, then where does the source come into play? No offense but i think you're going in circles.

Some belief systems don't separate the source and the collective unconscious, they're different ways of categorizing what is a whole.  Most mystically minded people come close to this worldview one way or the other.

I do not know any skeptics that have gone through such a transformation personally, but it was more of an example of what would have to happen for magic to be effective on a skeptic and still keep inside the Idea that reality is the creator of the mind.

  When I studied anthropology, I read many accounts of anthropologists who went to study indigenous cultures and were very sceptical of their sympathetic magical-type religions, and after living with them for some years changed their understanding of reality.  Others remained sceptical but admitted that magic seemed to work, just couldn't figure out how.  That's the only example I know that I would come close to trusting. 

[Forgotten_Purpose]

Dreadfully sorry for the delay everyone, It has been an emotionally tiresome period in my house. My Dad came to stay with us while my Mom was away on a business trip and lets just say it wasn't pleasant time. The reason I haven't posted is because Dad is a hardcore Christian type of guy and hates these sort of topics. 

Anyway enough of the boohoos, on with the show!

  To me magic is making what you want happen and that can be pretty much anything, however I do believe that you can't break the laws of the universe, but you can make it seem so. Being a wizard means to be a creator of reality.
  I think something connected to magic is changing the way you look at life. I have a friend that thinks god and satan "speak" to him, though not audiable but by "showing" him things, just everday things but with some message in it(details aren't important). I have actually experienced a few messages with him and the only way I could understand is if he points it out.
  He says he also hears messages in music, but they are different from god/satan messages(universe speaking).  I personally experienced one recently and 'saw' it.
I said "I have to go"
    *he just finished picking a random song as i finish my line*
Then few seconds later... bam the lyrics go "you don't have to go".
I went home anyways ignoring it... as I get home I realize I dont have my key and I'm wating there for like an hour until my dad returns.  I felt strange ignoring it, the universe was speaking to me...
So how does that relate to 'magic'? Well, songs (particularly rap/ r and b) are like his way of hearing from the universe, actually I think the term is "medium" and messages/answers are spoken thru music to him, as for me only when I'm with him I notice this.
 Here is an example of a spell- My brother told me about this and I'm pretty sure its from the book called 'Conversations with God'.
Its called the "I want" spell and its negative. When you say you want something your spell has been cast, so that is what you get a 'I want'. Want is the absence of something.  Personally think about this a see how it effects you, maybe start changing 'I want' into being thankful for what you have " I am thankful for having enough food today" or " I am happy that I have enough money today".  Since many people here are for having astral projections, lucid dreams and all that, change the 'I want' to I'll have a 'insert' tonight.  In matter of fact when I was telling a friend about this, he told me " when you told me I'll have a lucid dream I did"(he was having a hard time going lucid and I was trying to help him out).

Well I'm not sure. It is an interesting idea, but I wont rule out coincidence. I have had a similar experiences with music but I would call it coincidence rather then magic but you could be right.

There are lots of books on magic, like the one I have said earlier Conversations with God, but another one is called The Four Agreements and I'll list them here-
Be Impeccable With Your Word , Don't Take Anything Personally ,Don't Make Assumptions  and Always Do Your Best . If your not interested in getting the book some people have written reviews on it and you can get a better understanding that way. A book doesn't have to be specifically about "magic" it just has to do with how you can shape your reality and as I said "Being a wizard means to be a creator of reality".

Sounds more like self help books but if you have some links I'd be willing to take a look.

and to CFTraveler

Some belief systems don't separate the source and the collective unconscious, they're different ways of categorizing what is a whole.  Most mystically minded people come close to this worldview one way or the other.

Then we would have to have some direct connection to "The Source" in order to change reality.
And Then that would rule out that we change reality, To suggest that a divine creator can be manipulated by its creation is
blasphemy on some level

When I studied anthropology, I read many accounts of anthropologists who went to study indigenous cultures and were very sceptical of their sympathetic  religions, and after living with them for some years changed their understanding of reality.  Others remained sceptical but admitted that magic seemed to work, just couldn't figure out how.  That's the only example I know that I would come close to trusting.

Im beginning to think that magic is a manifestation of desire mixed with a strong sense of belief because certainly all religions have preformed a miracle or two.

what I still am eager to know is the mechanics of the thing.

You guys have suggested the possibility of the collective unconscious or the "source" being the creators of reality. You have suggested that   
they are one and the same. I do not think we were created by a sentient being because of the fact in order to consciously practice magic we would have to reach through the "source" to achieve our desires. It would make the source something of a cosmic whore and as a sentient being i dint think it would appreciate being used.

So that leaves the possibility of the collective unconscious being the source of reality and magic. Of that I require more thinking time.

[CFTraveler]

Then we would have to have some direct connection to "The Source" in order to change reality.

That is the basis for most forms of magic/manifesting.  That we are all one, therefore connected to the Source/God

And Then that would rule out that we change reality, To suggest that a divine creator can be manipulated by its creation is
blasphemy on some level

It is only blasphemy if you think/believe that God is a anthropomorphic being that has attributes such as pride and insecurity and needs to be separate from us.  This is a human need, and a symptom of limitation.  If the source has designed creation to be creator it is not manipulation it it's negative connotation, but the utilization of natural laws that are being used to what they're supposed to be used as-creation.  In other words, if God designed us to create, creating isn't blasphemous, it's just what we're supposed to do.  And if "God" is in charge, then we can't do anything but.  And if "God" isn't in charge, then it's not God- it's 'a' God.

[Forgotten_Purpose]

Sorry for the wait.

hat is the basis for most forms of magic/manifesting.  That we are all one, therefore connected to the Source/God

Then what is the connection and why do we have one?

It is only blasphemy if you think/believe that God is a anthropomorphic being that has attributes such as pride and insecurity and needs to be separate from us.  This is a human need, and a symptom of limitation.  If the source has designed creation to be creator it is not manipulation it it's negative connotation, but the utilization of natural laws that are being used to what they're supposed to be used as-creation.  In other words, if God designed us to create, creating isn't blasphemous, it's just what we're supposed to do.  And if "God" is in charge, then we can't do anything but.  And if "God" isn't in charge, then it's not God- it's 'a' God.

Most if not all the gods of our many religions are VERY human-like. I know you can argue that Humans "created" the gods in our holy books but for example if Christianity was the truth I imagine that Jesus wouldn't like being used that like that.

[CFTraveler]

Sorry for the wait.

Then what is the connection and why do we have one?

The connection was explained already- We are the parts of God (or extensions of God) that were designed by God to create.  It's why we were made and it's what we do.  Whether we know it or not.  If we create unconsciously, it's called "coincidence".  If we create consciously, it's called 'manifesting', or 'magic'.

Most if not all the gods of our many religions are VERY human-like. I know you can argue that Humans "created" the gods in our holy books but for example if Christianity was the truth I imagine that Jesus wouldn't like being used that like that.

In the first place, most of the religions that turned out to be anthropomorphic didn't start out like that- if you study history you'll see that most politheistic religions started out as mystically revealed forms of thought with made 'the source' into an abstract unmanifested idea (such as the 'Atman' in Hinduism, to use one for an example) and when they were taught to the 'uneducated masses' all manifestations of 'God' became many gods, because that's how people understood them.  So you see, politheistic religions which anthromorphized their gods had a basic understanding that these 'humanlike' gods were really just manifestations of a more abstract 'Atman' or 'Brahman'.  The same can be said for the other more well known politheistic religion, the greek religion, in which the people believed in different humanlike gods for different purposes, but the intellectual elite knew better, and didn't believe in these anthropomorphic manifestations as gods themselves.  If not read the ancient Myths of the Titans (who were prior to the Gods)- the further back you go, the more abstract and centralized the idea of 'God' gets.
So it's not that I'm saying it- the founders or creators or those who wrote about these religions at the time said so.

Ps. And speaking of Jesus, why would he 'feel used'?  Jesus is the teacher that taught us "Ask and you will receive" over and over.  It's all over the Bible:  Take a look at the one prayer he taught.  It's a lesson in manifesting.

[zipppy2006]

This is an interesting post.  The way I see "learning to manifest" such things would be getting into prayer and intention.  Maybe faith too?  If the world is a consequence of beliefs both consciously and unconsciously, then changing those beliefs in yourself changes the world in some minute way no?

[CFTraveler]

I would think so.