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Author Topic: And the truth shall be known - You'll see !  (Read 114253 times)
SeekingAnsers
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« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2003, 00:24:49 »

quote:
Originally posted by Tisha

Folks, I've learned a lot from this string.  Especially the last few pages, when it started unraveling (pun intended).

See how easy it is to be misled?   Frankly, the title of this thread "AND THE TRUTH SHALL BE KNOWN" set off danger signals in my head.  Was I the only one?  It sounded so evangelistic.  I'm not challenging the power of the pendulum or any other divination tool - - for goodness sake I'm a witch, that's what I do, work with oracles!  What I AM SAYING is that human perception, human interpretations, are imperfect, and we all have to be VERY careful about hopping on the bandwagon, even the New Age bandwagon.  Sometimes we're TOO credulous.

First, Mayatnik urges us not to adopt what he/she says blindly, that we should explore things, challenge them, and learn the truth for ourselves.  However, once faced with a genuine challenge to her presumptions (thank you 13), she gets defensive, her student gets all huffy (ego alert! ego alert!), and both parties (?) leave the discussion.

What you were witnessing was a challenge to a cherished Belief System.  Stick around, it happens a lot!

In the mean time, for those of you who wish to continue work with your pendulum(s?) - - what's the plural of pendulum? - - - please keep this in mind:

A.  There are a lot of Beings out there on the Astral, good, bad, and indifferent.  Just because it's talking to you doesn't mean it's smart.  Or good. Or that it has your best interests at heart.  You will have to determine it for yourself over time, by verifying what it tells you.  STAY AWARE.

B.  Higher beings do not get offended.  Taking offense is an affectation, and Higher Beings are simply above it. If your Astral Friend displays pride, self-importance, offense, or any other ego-driven impulse, you're dealing with a lower being who's getting his jollies off, jerking you around like a puppet for his/her own entertainment or ego-needs (what lower form wouldn't love to be worshipped!).

C.  Higher beings don't lie.  They just won't do it.  There is no motive.  They don't "test you" by lying or misleading you.  So if an Astral being jerks you around, thank it for its time and bid it adieu.

BTW, It's OK to banish unwelcome Astral visitors.  Really.  In fact, banishment a good way to communicate your unwillingness to host them again. Think about it first, though, before you burn your bridges.  Banishing something and asking its advice later can be pretty embarrasing.

ANYWAY, despite the way this thread is ending (?), I do think the information is very valuable (perhaps we could move it to Divination and Prophecy?) and we should keep it as a "sticky."

Good night, tomorrow I'm on a jet plane, won't be back for many-a-day . . .


No i am here was just away.

and i can see you are easly decived aswell, this has nothing to do with astral beings im afraid. all you are doing is to help decive people, i appreciate your a witch and i strongly belive in there true power, but im afraid what you have enterd is something very diffrent and the knoldge i get is not from spirit or man. it appears we were both wrighting are posts at the same time lol. i do apreciate your input, but anything learnt from witch craft is far from what is being taught here (i mean that in no offence, but there are to very diffrent things that do not fall into one another).as for Mayatnik he was teaching me to teach everyone,iv just been away. i hope this has clarifyed things for you. youve simply wanderd in on a conversation at the wrong time. [Smiley]
ps. guides always test you to prepare your brain to be ready to understand the true truth, again you are mistaking for somthing out of robert bruces books, (nothin to do with this, trust me lol, i have full mental cumnication with the species,but i cannot reveal there identity because its for people to learn fru there tests)
Samuel, and my loving Guide,Mashway
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Squeek
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« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2003, 00:37:54 »

Hmm very interesting Tisha.  Sad to see you leaving Sad

I think I agree with that actually.  I don't see why they would lie in the first place...as if they have nothing better to do with their time.  Be they evil, good, or just regular, the answers shouldn't lie.  Maybe we should ask Mayatnik about this.

~Squeek

PS - How do you get a name out of them?
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« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2003, 00:37:54 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Tisha
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« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2003, 00:50:47 »

Well, it appears that while I was typing away, SeekingAnsers made it clear he/she was still in the discussion.  HM.  SeekingAnsers, before you can teach, especially in a written format, you truly do need to learn how to spell.  

ALSO, you're new here, so you probably don't know this Forum is chock-full of very experienced people who can spot a fruad a mile away . . . and trust me, 13 is not a fraud. 13 appears new to the Forum also and I don't know him/her from Adam or Eve, but I've got a good feeling about him/her.  I doubt many people here have concluded he/she is a fraud.

However, I DON'T have a good feeling about what you're supposedly "channelling."   You feel very young and credulous and inexperienced to me, someone who would likely be too easily sucked in by a lower life form, or a teacher who is admittedly a talented channeler and an experienced oracle, but who has too much Ego to stick around and converse with other talented people who happen to disagree with him (a common affliction with students of the esoteric - - - these little snits seem to be a way of life!).

Heaven only knows why Mayatnik is allowing you, his student for whom he is responsible, to run amok on this Forum.  A good teacher would have you move more slowly, and spend more time in study and practice, rather than set you loose on an online Forum, acting like a channeller of some teacher-to-the-online-masses (please stop, I'm embarrassed for you).  You actually have a long way to go.  The Astral entity might be doing all the talking, but the channeller needs to be wise.  And wisdom does not come cheap or easy.

OK, now I'm really off line - - good night all, have fun with your pendulummmmmmzzzzz!
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Tisha
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« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2003, 01:00:12 »

quote:
Originally posted by Squeek

Hmm very interesting Tisha.  Sad to see you leaving Sad

I think I agree with that actually.  I don't see why they would lie in the first place...as if they have nothing better to do with their time.  Be they evil, good, or just regular, the answers shouldn't lie.  Maybe we should ask Mayatnik about this.

~Squeek

PS - How do you get a name out of them?


Sqeek Guides will Never lie to you, they test you to make sure ur taking in there ansers and not just blinly beliving it, its all part of prepairing your mind and to build your knoledge, you dont just sit you exzam and come out as a telepath with full contact with your guide. nothing is serverd to you, you have to earn it if you really want.

i feel i must explain what status is, status is somthing you earn the more you work out and learn, and the more status you have the more you can be told, were as Mayatnik had 8years of status he can anser things in full blown pages of useful infomation, were my infomation that my guide channels fru me is cut majorly down to what the person "KNEEDS" to know, but if im ever lost i always Mayatnik to turn to, to help you,

 Sqeek you are getting the wrong impression of what this is all about, i sugest u read old posts m8, this page is a test for us to learn and not a good place to jump in on to gather opinoins,

this really has nothing to do with higherselves,spirits,subconcios, thease coments have only been put by people trained in diffrent subjects who are trying to make sence of this with what they know. rule 1. forget what u do know to learn this (dont forget it period.just dont try to intergrate it with this or youl be as confused as "13". thanks for your time on the posts.


Samuel and my loving Guide, Mashway
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Nick
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« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2003, 01:10:33 »

Tisha,

There is nothing I can add to what you wrote. You perfectly described exactly what I was feeling about this thread. Well said!    [8D]

Very best,
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« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2003, 01:10:33 »



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SeekingAnsers
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« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2003, 01:14:56 »

quote:
Originally posted by SeekingAnsers

quote:
Originally posted by Tisha

Well, it appears that while I was typing away, SeekingAnsers made it clear he/she was still in the discussion.  HM.  SeekingAnsers, before you can teach, especially in a written format, you truly do need to learn how to spell.  

ALSO, you're new here, so you probably don't know this Forum is chock-full of very experienced people who can spot a fruad a mile away . . . and trust me, 13 is not a fraud. 13 appears new to the Forum also and I don't know him/her from Adam or Eve, but I've got a good feeling about him/her.  I doubt many people here have concluded he/she is a fraud.

However, I DON'T have a good feeling about what you're supposedly "channelling."   You feel very young and credulous and inexperienced to me, someone who would likely be too easily sucked in by a lower life form, or a teacher who is admittedly a talented channeler and an experienced oracle, but who has too much Ego to stick around and converse with other talented people who happen to disagree with him (a common affliction with students of the esoteric - - - these little snits seem to be a way of life!).

Heaven only knows why Mayatnik is allowing you, his student for whom he is responsible, to run amok on this Forum.  A good teacher would have you move more slowly, and spend more time in study and practice, rather than set you loose on an online Forum, acting like a channeller of some teacher-to-the-online-masses (please stop, I'm embarrassed for you).  You actually have a long way to go.  The Astral entity might be doing all the talking, but the channeller needs to be wise.  And wisdom does not come cheap or easy.

OK, now I'm really off line - - good night all, have fun with your pendulummmmmmzzzzz!


tis because of dislexia if thats ok, i try to make it as readerble as possible, and as i said before your trying to intergrate your knoledge with somthing completly diffrent,and it wont work and lead you to the conclusions u are obvisly reaching,iv learnt what i know from my guide, iv met my guide face to face, i know what they are.iv not learnt everything from a robert bruce book, (nothing against him, its just he teachs somthing completly diffrent) and anyway im not told to do this by Mayatnik, im told this is my next job by who i meet and cumnicate with fru teleapty, so what your trying to say is someone with dislexia has to wait till his next life time to reveal the truth to people because of his spelling!!!. and yet u seem to b portraying me as "young" and "ignorant".hmmm, im getting quite confused as how many diffrent ways im going to have to word this and say it before you understand that this is very diffrent to what you know.

Samuel, and my loving Guide Mashway

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goingslow
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« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2003, 01:17:01 »

I have been and still am impressed with mayatniks posts which were filled with detail and helpful information.  

New age thought really relies on this type of "knowing" exactly how higher beings are and the fact they lack emotion.  Its as if we're so arrogant we feel we should treat them however we want and they should prove they're higher by not being offended.

Other religions even many Asian beliefs which believe in all types of differet spirits teach respect for spirits and I dont think there's anything wrong with that.  However, if the entity I was chanelling got angry I would probably stop channelling it.  I think if it wouldnt leave it would be okay to "banish" it.  I wouldnt test it though and say it was deluded then banish it.  Course I have no interest in being a Majician and I really dont understand the purpose of that.  Unless I understood everything there was to know and every consequence, I think there's too much you have to assume or rely on books which may or may not be true.

I can see both sides of this and how a person with a great deal of respect for their guides would be offended.  However I think spirits and guides can take care of themselves so if what 13 is doing is wrong then the "guides" just wont go to her.  Its a personal thing between them so I dont see the reason to get mad at her.. even though my first reaction was "how arrogant".  I think this thing is being kinda blown out of proportion now which is a shame because there is a lot of info there.  

BTW I work with some people who have problems reading and writing and you do a good job expressing yourself seekinganswers.
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SeekingAnsers
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« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2003, 01:26:17 »

BTW I work with some people who have problems reading and writing and you do a good job expressing yourself seekinganswers.

Why thank you i do try. I do see but u see she has not spoken to Karek and to claim things like that is terrible, Guides pick things up like that up before they have to say it. My guide never got angry but I did so i put a mix of the 2 together, if u continue to learn the pendulum ul learn WHY it has nothing to do with spirit body or mind, but till then i just have to fight a 1sided war lol, thanks for your open mindedness, its gratly kneeded, im taking alota slate here lol. I will keep replying for my guide till my fingures fall off [xx(]. heres somthing for you to think about witch is very true and certainly somthing U will understand.

Wisdom does not come from a book........ some of the greatest wisdom
came come from the mouth of a child......and it can come from Channeling, even when a person has NEVER read a book in their
lives.....and that's how many channelers are
 

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goingslow
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« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2003, 01:56:13 »

seekinganswers,

I understand more where you are coming from since you're learning the pendulum and maybe you felt 13 was disrespecting your "Mentor".  However, I dont understand Why the teacher would get as offended.  Surely Mayatnik must be used to being asked questions as a teacher, unless his/her pupils arent allowed to ask questions.
If that's the case thats a sign of something.  And you should at least be aware of that as the student.

I also think it isnt right you're sitting here dealing with this issue while he/she comes on to read the thread but doesn't respond.  I would definitely let mayatnik speak for themselves.  As your Mentor I would think he (I really need to start reading profiles) would be the one to defend the thread or tell you to let it be.  That does make me a little suspicious.  

Best of luck
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Squeek
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« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2003, 02:02:14 »

No no no I did read all the posts here...  I was just asking because of what the new posts said too.  Last night I actually got alot more out that I can remember.  These are the highlights.

Are you my guide?  -  Yes.
Are you a male guide?  -  No.
So then you are a female guide?  -  Yes.

Do you like the same music I like?  -  (a bit indifferent...then) No.

Will I do well on my driving test tomorrow?  -  Yes.

That was a good one.  I'm assured to do it again tonight.

~Squeek
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SeekingAnsers
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« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2003, 02:10:36 »

lol now this is the problem, there was more to the tiff than the public saw,
now you must  understand Mayatnik is not allowed to interfere, iv been told to instruck him to that,as i was told that by my guide b4 he told me he kudnt, this is somthing i must do, i havt to rebuild and re-teach, 13 was told in forum and in private just how much it offended what we were teaching, after many atempts of trying to make her aware she wud not, so she diliberatly went against after being aware of the disrespect. But jue to the many ways you can veiw her opoinion every1 started jumping in and it got out of hand,

Thats hard for people to see, she was treated fair for dispite her atitiude but after much comprimise i was instruckted to talk to her by my guide and kinda fliped MYSELF.
i understand what your saying, but its yesterdays news im afraid. u and many did not see everything. i have to rebuild the faith whilst Mayatnik starts his new job for the guides,
witch is 10 times harder than myn. My guide said that this is my job, we are given jobs goingslow,I have to now teach everyone because i am ready. but u see "13"s post has opend sooo much post towards all this mind,body,soul,astral wild life,low life crap (it isnt crap but does in no way apply here) and made the hole thing alot more confusing.

I hope you can begin to understand this. im trying to teach everyone the truth. but many people can make it very hard and get there own BOOK READ beleifs and confuse the hole thing. i hope this has helped

thank you for your intrest

Samuel,my loving Guide Mashway
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SeekingAnsers
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« Reply #136 on: June 27, 2003, 02:18:05 »

Niceone Sqeekz
Deffitnly on the right path, its not all lessons and i assure you u have nothing to worry about, the entitys others regard to come out of robert bruce books, i asure you this is somthing that whud never halm you in a million years. They dont even have the emotion to back it up. Sounds like your doing exelent, look foward to hearing about your progress in the futre,

remember progress comes from Asking Positive Qeustions,Not what u read ina book. goodluck

Samuel, Chanelld fru my loving Guide, Mashway
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SeekingAnsers
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« Reply #137 on: June 27, 2003, 03:22:59 »

Come on people iv been scRaping all night now and its time to move on.
I want the most intressting storys or some of the BIGGEST MADEST adventure or something MAJOR uv discoverd on the pendulum and i want everyone who uses one to get involved please


REMEMBER YOU WILL ONLY PROGRESS BY ASKING POSITIVE QEUSTIONS!!!!!

ASKING NEGITIVE QEUSTIONS (LIKE REPEATADLY ASKING HER/HIM TO PROVE THEMSELVES, WILL ONLY HALT YOUR LEARNING PROGRESS.

ASK EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING YOU CAN POSSIBLE THINK OF THATS GOOD. YOU ALL KNOW THE DRILL

BUT I WANT TO KNOW THE MOST AMAZING STORY THAT SOMEONES GOT TO SHARE
                  [Smiley][Smiley][Smiley][Smiley][Smiley][Smiley]
LETZ JUST COME TOGETHER INSTEADA DEBATING FOR 5MINS. MANY RE LEARNING VERY WELL AND BECAUSE OF DEBATERS THEY AINT GETTING TAUGHT
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13
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« Reply #138 on: June 27, 2003, 05:01:38 »

Tisha - I realise you'll be afk when I post this, but I wanted to thank you, as another practitioner, for voicing reason and careful thought in what is otherwise devolving into a belief system argument. I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify my gender too [:p] - although my buddies would say otherwise, last time I checked I was very definitely male. But I appreciate SeekingAnswers cute distraction on that point [Smiley]

There really isn't much to add - some of us have diverged from logical "point, counterpoint" discussion to derogatory personal remarks and emotional defence of belief systems. If anyone thought what I've written is illogical, or the product of imagination, they were free to say so. I am new on this forum, but have more experience in this area than I bother saying, and the reality is that astral inhabitants are no different to physical inhabitants - a vast assortment of capability, intelligence and ethics. Tisha knows this and I can tell is a practitioner also. I have spoken with several other very experienced practitioners about channeled entities, with exactly the same opinions. I encourage people to *objectively* test and validate the communicating beings - there is no other way to be sure. I'm convinced that speaking with high beings is possible, but without any sort of validation, divination is open to misuse from the other side. This is, neither fortunately nor unfortunately, simply the way it is. Remember that people who aggressively and emotionally defend their beliefs always have a lot to lose if their beliefs are wrong...

As for banishing, noone should feel that that is rude - it's how beings are shown the door. An entity which openly and intentionally lies to me is neither welcome nor tolerated, and a swift kick in the pants on the way out is fully warranted I feel. On the other hand, beings who demonstrate genuine ability and rapport I am very very courteous and obliging to.

I feel this discussion should continue nonetheless, since valuable information is still available via the pendulum and other divination methods. In fact, rather than be dominated by belief systems, we have the chance to do very interesting and objective group divinations and any number of pre- or post-cognitive experiments. "Avante garde" research is the true spirit of metaphysical learning, not "Thou shalt do as I say" religious beliefs. SeekingAnswers and Mayatnik are not the first 'new age' religious thinkers I have met, and I won't fall for the trap of debating belief systems. So instead, I'd like to see if anyone is interested in conducting objective experiments on pendulum work, and to use the group consensus or majority as validation of certain information. You never know what is possible...last night I got the pendulum to speak to me in English through a code I developed ad hoc, then and there. There really is no fixed vocabulary between intelligent beings - it is as the practitioner decides.

As for you Samuel...do you think my knowledge is from books only? I guarantee you I have more experience with entities than you are aware of - I can see from your infantile posts exactly how much you know. If your guide is truly All-Knowing, and in particular is aware of me, then I give you one simple test - what is my name? or even my initials? Ask your guide and tell me what it says...I know it will have no answer, or will refuse the test. Why? Because, plainly, it is not what it makes itself out to be. It is a lower astral being...hardly a "loving guide". I will do my best to cloak my true initials and reveal a false set - if your guide comes up with them then I will know it has some ability, but only minor talent at negotiating thought-forms. Of course, I expect you to reply with something along the lines of "This is absurd, I'm not going to even try"...Here's an idea - why don't you send me your photo and I can show you how much I've learnt from books. I have no reason to tolerate your personal remarks against me much longer. This is a forum for knowledge and growth - open discussion is natural and integral to that. Instead, you display the bigotry that would make any fundamentalist proud. Send your guide to me, I will give you a sigil for him to contact me in trance. I would enjoy talking to him [Smiley].

Friends, like I said, this is good knowledge, but the process of finding the Truth is always through questioning, discovery and brutal honesty - blind faith or unproven beliefs plays no part in higher learning at any level. Robert Bruce uses the phrase "Catch Basket" to explain a similar thing. It would be good to see a group pendulum divination on a future event, something we could all verify, and it would help with people's individual objective testing of higher entities...Just a thought. My fond wishes to all serious students.
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« Reply #139 on: June 27, 2003, 06:11:20 »

13, I respect your sincere attitude and open questioning. We all can benefit from the vast experience you seem to have. I'd like to ask you: in what way is using the pendulum similar to other forms of channeling? I don't know anything about the way channeling works "technically", nor do I know enough about the "astral mechanics" of the pendulum, but I think we can all look for that information in the previous posts and try to check it for truth and explore further. Is it - from your point of view - possible or likely that any sufficiently intelligent (whatever that may be) entity which can get our attention use the pendulum to convey it's answers to us?

quote:
Originally posted by 13


There really isn't much to add - some of us have diverged from logical "point, counterpoint" discussion to derogatory personal remarks and emotional defence of belief systems.



(next snippet from an other post)



I feel this discussion should continue nonetheless, since valuable information is still available via the pendulum and other divination methods. In fact, rather than be dominated by belief systems, we have the chance to do very interesting and objective group divinations and any number of pre- or post-cognitive experiments. "Avante garde" research is the true spirit of metaphysical learning, not "Thou shalt do as I say" religious beliefs.



I totally agree with what you say here. So let's see what everyone can contribute. By the way, you too have your "religious" beliefs, your view of the world, based on a life on experience, which you all defend, and which is your right to. Let's merge all our beliefs to see the truth.

Seekingansers, in regard to 'all this mind,body,soul,astral wild life,low life crap' you said 'it isnt crap but does in no way apply here'. You expect people to believe you. Maybe there would never have been a need to have this discussion we are having now and everyone would have progresses in a different way than now. But actually, we took a path where there are questions which have a right to be answered. Previous knowledge always has an effect on what you percieve, what decisions you make, and how you treat things. Having no knowledge at all would maybe be the best way to learn what the pendulum has to teach, I could imagine that Mayatnik expected the readers here to absorb what they can learn and to integrate it in their life, and wasn't the one to discuss in detail how it fits into a lifelong of experience and learning which tells you other things. I don't know how he expected it to be, but as he's gone, it doesn't matter anymore, we have to continue on our own.

Seekingansers and 13 (and others who can and should contribute):

1) Who or what are we communicating with when we use the pendulum?
2) Can we be sure of it?
3) How can be be sure of it?

I feel these questions need to be cleared if we want to progress as a group and not as an individual.

With all my love,
  Edi
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13
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« Reply #140 on: June 27, 2003, 07:09:00 »

Hello Edi,

quote:
We all can benefit from the vast experience you seem to have

It really isn't that extensive. I'm only in my 20's, and there is so much to learn that it is overwhelming.

quote:
in what way is using the pendulum similar to other forms of channeling?

What I believe here is a combination of direct experience, secondhand information (other practitioners) and books. My best guess is as follows..
- a human exists in all 3 planes, physical (and etheric), astral and mental simultaneously
- a being of an astral or mental density does not exist physically or etherically, so normally we do not *physically* perceive them, but they astrally and mentally perceive us. This is why I can ask a question in my head and get a response - I am communicating an astral or mental thought form to them. This is also why lower entities fail at certain pure-mental operations (like maths) which are devoid of emotional "sense" to them - they do not naturally operate on the plane, or with the mind, that thinks in pure concepts.
- there are two methods by which "oracles" (tools of divination) work. Either the tool is purely mental (ie, occurring only in the diviner's head) or it is mental/physical, requiring manifestation of an etheric density to work
- This is very much like entity evocation and summoning...a being must traverse from it's natural plane to a physical or more conscious astral plane if asked, and so it either has the ability itself to accumulate energy of the right density to do this, or it is granted by the human doing the operation. Any interdimensional communication works the same way.
- In cases where the diviner consciously or unconsciously grants etheric energy to the being, it then transfer its consciousness to such matter and gains the sense abilities at that density. It can then influence physical and physical/etheric matter for as long as it keeps its consciousness at that level.

I was genuine when I said my theory here is based on personal experience. Even last night in talking (via pendulum) to a being, I could feel the energy being drawn from up my body and out through my right arm, very noticeably and constantly. I told the entity I knew what it was doing, and said it could take what it needed as I had plenty. I projected energy to it and told it to give me a really big swing and it did exactly this. The same mechanism works for ouija. Automatic writing works when the being transfers consciousness into the etheric matter *of the limb itself* rather than just drawing etheric matter out of the diviner. Experienced 'writers' intentionally exteriorize their astral limb and give the entity full control over the etheric counterpart, all while conscious. Full mediumship (temporary possession) is the same mechanism but through the whole body. Experienced mediums also exteriorize, at their will or the will of the being, their entire astral during sessions. Needless to say, anyone of right mind would never allow such an exercise unless they had very developed will power and were sure of the intentions and capability of the entity. The humble pendulum is a simple method for mediumship.

quote:
Is it - from your point of view - possible or likely that any sufficiently intelligent (whatever that may be) entity which can get our attention use the pendulum to convey it's answers to us?

The answer to this is not simple, but the short of it is generally 'yes', afaik and imho of course. If you offer an open invitation, any entity operating in your astral vicinity and on the same natural plane that your astral resides, will be attracted. However, you can invite (through prayer, consciousness raising, etc) higher beings who can easily respond and provide their own etheric matter. I am no expert on pendulum specifically (although it's not exactly rocket science) but I have found in the 20 or so I've done so far, simply starting the pendulum without forethought is like the 'open invitation' mode, and the quality of responses has varied greatly. I have also used prayer and invocation to get (what I believe is) my higher self, or a higher being, once. If a relationship is built over time, the same entity (high or low) will develop a telepathic link to you and you can call it at will. This again is nothing new, I can do very similarly with my girlfriend - it's a product of time and mental association. It's even better with humans because you can intentionally join chakras together forming energetic channels.

quote:
By the way, you too have your "religious" beliefs, your view of the world, based on a life on experience

Absolutely!! [Smiley] I'm very glad someone understands the nature of the word 'dogma'. We all have our beliefs, and in one sense everyone *does* have their religion, their dogma, whether they justify it objectively/scientifically or subjectively/emotionally. There is a key difference though - it's the difference between having a dogma and being *dogmatic*. When people consider their beliefs/dogma as replaceable, and strive to learn, having no problem with 'being wrong', they may have a 'best guess' dogma, but they are not dogmatic. I have said several times I would readily change my opinion if I found I was wrong, and my method of enquiry is objective, so I do my best not to *be dogmatic*. I use the word "religious" to indicate "dogmatic", ie. emotional and rigid attachment to beliefs in the absence of evidence, or in the presence of evidence to the contrary.

quote:

1) Who or what are we communicating with when we use the pendulum?
2) Can we be sure of it?
3) How can be be sure of it?


As I said above, the answers do vary based on several things, but the possibility of high quality divinations and contact with great intelligences definitely exists, and is worth our best efforts. Some people don't like the notion of prayer, but it is effective in raising one's consciousness and invoking the right character of being. Despite one's efforts though, validation is always advised, and only when trust is *proven* should one assume one is talking to a high being. It is so easy to start channeling one day, get talking to something 'interesting', then this thing affirms your beliefs (with some alterations of it's choosing), and when the relationship grows over time, you think you're talking to the Messiah, or an alien race, or your HGA... Simple objective validation could save so much potential heartache and confusion. I've been through this myself, several time, and so learnt by experience to *prove* the nature of the beings. There are surprisingly more mischevious astral beings than you would think.. for them it is exciting and fulfilling to build delusions of grandeur - they literally *live* in their thoughts and to have the confidence of a human is incredibly significant to them.

Anyway, I don't intend to take centre stage in what is undoubtedly a group effort, and there is a lot of experience from many corners. We really should conduct a group experiment, since so many people are getting discrete pendulum activity. I like any open discussion of truths, whether people agree with me or not - it is always a learning experience. My only request is to for people to cease being dogmatic, and to be courteous and objective. Kind wishes [Smiley]!

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Serenity1
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« Reply #141 on: June 27, 2003, 08:28:55 »

I'm keen to particapate,
interestingly, today my Pendulum /guide has gone very coy after giving such a positive demonstration yesterday.[?][V]
At least I've lernt I can move the thing with my mind/will[8D]even if I thinking the guide a bit suss at the moment!

Looking forward to learn more.
Thanks for the perserverence folks.[Smiley]
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Squeek
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« Reply #142 on: June 27, 2003, 10:22:27 »

Is this whole deal any different from actually going astral yourself and chatting with someone there?  

If so, then how is that bad.  It's a bit more since you can actually "see" them,  but still.  If you think about it it really is the same thing.  You are just chatting with someone from the astral.

Post!

~Squeek
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Gandalf
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« Reply #143 on: June 27, 2003, 10:46:43 »

My final thought about this thread is that it has been very, very instructive and entertaining, esp when the mud started flying.
I think this thread should be placed somewhere safe and made required reading by everyone coming to this forum.

The instructive value of this thread was not so much to do with pendulums but about the dangers of ego driven beliefs and the effects that ensue when cherished belief systems come under threat from simple reasoning and/or opposing points of view.

In particular, this thread is an example of the danger of people gaining a small amount of knowledge and then going off on an evangelical crusade to convince everyone of the 'truth' of the matter. The old occult proverb 'a little knowledge is dangerous' applies here!
The fact of the matter is that the description of guides that the two main protaganists provide fall short of myself and other's experience of them, ie their description of guides that get upset and go in the huff just doesnt add up.
Also, at one point SeekingansWers states that if you insult a guide then it will go 'for good' . This again is not borne out by most people's experience of true guides.

These two contradict themselves as they advocate direct experience, (a sound strategy) but then get annoyed when others question their cherished beliefs, which we are all meant to accept as 'fact'.

At the end of the day, I agree that the pendulum is a good divining tool and can be used to contact others in the astral but while SeekingansWers and Mayatnik command that only true guides can use this form of communication, I just don't see the justification for such a statement. I see no reason whatsoever why the pendulum is not the same as any other form of oracle/divination, ie open to all and sundry like everything else. Therefore caution and common sense as always, is required.

Regards,
Douglas

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Frank
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« Reply #144 on: June 27, 2003, 11:50:16 »



Personally, I found the latter part of the thread more interesting than the initial part. But, then again, my long-standing interest in psychology naturally takes precedence over any pendulum work.

It seems to me that within the confines of this thread, the "word of a guide" has turned out to be the modern-day phraseology equivalent of, "the word of God". As such, the natural extension of that line of reasoning (using two thousand years of human history as a yardstick) can only lead to fighting, ultimately: my guide is better than your guide and I'm willing to die proving it, and all that.

I'm unsure as to the general consensus but, after reading this whole thread a number of times, it does very much seem to me that Mr 13's only crime has been to politely and respectfully question the information being presented. Plus, it was mentioned about how this is a forum for knowledge and growth, and open discussion is natural and integral to that. How true. So surely, then, only people with some kind of hidden-agenda would find such notions offensive.

As such, I thought perhaps it might be helpful if those who claim to be in-touch with this race of people, would explain that to them. And could I (for one) respectfully suggest you mention in particular about how getting all huffy and puffy adds nothing to their credibility.

I'm not sure how it works on other planets, but knowledgeable people here expect a far higher standard of behaviour from those who claim to be advanced beings. If it helps, I'm within the upper Astral most mornings and they are welcome to pop along and have a chat. I'll do my best to clear up any misunderstanding directly.

Oh, and at the same time would you ask if they might reciprocate by giving me a few more hints and tips on how to get my pendulum working. Smiley

Yours,
Frank

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Squeek
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« Reply #145 on: June 27, 2003, 12:23:41 »

I hope I didnt mess anything up.  I was just trying to offer my opinions on the subject.

BTW i did do it again last night.  I'll probably post the results later.

~Squeek
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Terry B
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« Reply #146 on: June 27, 2003, 12:32:23 »

Frankly, the first part of this thread feel very different than the latter part. I found 13 questioning is okay and helpful to the thread. I also agree with much of Gandalf's last post.

I remember reading some older post regarding medium or channelling of spirit but it's very hard to find them. The following two link is some that I can find.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=599
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23

Keep the discussion going.



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13
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« Reply #147 on: June 27, 2003, 14:54:13 »

Just wanted to give a warm thank you to those who posted recently. I can stop holding my breath now...I was unsure whether I'd offended the entire forum by probing too much and taking the shine off such mystical and 'divine' knowledge... Hearing that there are other students who recognise the value of the objective process is assuring.

A quick note to Frank - the strength of pendulum (and other physical oracle) movement is directly related to the amount of energy the being/entity can muster in you, and the free movement of it throughout your body. Robert Bruce's NEW, combined with trance, will help you a long way in this regard. It will also help you project into the RTZ, something you've been seeking for a while I believe [Wink]. Your concentration on the brow chakra is good - try extending this by raising energy throughout the whole body, and becoming aware of your whole etheric body strongly. RTZ projections from this state are much more likely - you effectively project your consciousness with enough etheric-density matter to engage etheric senses. Generally, consciousness at a particular density requires a body of matter of the same density - RTZ is pure etheric matter, made available through energy training. Higher-level astral/mental projection requires a body of higher-level (refined) astral/mental matter, gained through the course of spiritual training and/or consciousness raising. I sense you have hitherto been a little reluctant to embrace energetic training, maybe even considering it all a bit too fluffy or 'new age' to bother with, and/or just peripheral to your current projection work. Give it a try, you have everything to gain [Smiley].

To the group, definitely keep the pendulum work and discussion going... it is fertile. The mad scientist in me is thinking up some really cool group experiments to try, especially combined with other divination abilities and protocols I use, I'm just not sure of the interest level, and if people wouldn't prefer that I shush and Mayatnik come back.
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Frank
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« Reply #148 on: June 27, 2003, 15:19:18 »



13: Thank you for the tips. I do get where you are coming from and your comments are pretty much spot-on. As regards your future ideas, why not simply open a new thread in an appropriate forum. I'm sure it will be well received.

Yours,
Frank

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clandestino
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« Reply #149 on: June 27, 2003, 15:20:29 »

wow...what an interesting thread ! All these different beliefs being argued over....

excuse the capital letters here...
 
quote:
ASKING NEGITIVE QEUSTIONS (LIKE REPEATADLY ASKING HER/HIM TO PROVE THEMSELVES, WILL ONLY HALT YOUR LEARNING PROGRESS.



Seeking answers : this is the same kind of guff that religion has told us for years !! Imagine if my maths schoolteacher used that line... ! Seriously, I know that this subject is a different kettle of fish entirely, but I've got to side with Tisha & 13's reasoning.

I am really interested in Mayatnik's posts and will hopefully have time to read them and follow the instructions one day. But, as Frank said :
 
quote:
It seems to me that within the confines of this thread, the "word of a guide" has turned out to be the modern-day phraseology equivalent of, "the word of God".


I am not comfortable with throwing away my logic and reason and blindly believing everything a pendulum reveals to me. If you cannot verify that a pendulum or "alien intelligence" is providing you with correct information, then why should you trust it ??!

Seriously Mayatnik / Seeking Answers, I mean no disrespect to either of you, and I don't intend this post to be read in a hostile tone at all. I would please appreciate an answer to my question written in bold; to set my mind at rest. There are a lot of fantastic (& fantastical) posts in these forums....please keep 'em coming !!!

best wishes,
Mark
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