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Author Topic: Military draft 2005, for real  (Read 8992 times)
Nay
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« on: May 24, 2004, 01:52:38 »

President Bush and willy Cheney are having lunch at a restaurant.  Cheney orders the heart-healthy salad.  Bush leans over to the waitress and says, "Honey, could I have a quickie?"
   The waitress is horrified. "Mr. President," she says, "I thought your Administaration was bringing a new era of moral rectitude to the White House.  Now I see what a false promise that was."  And she marches off in a huff.
   Chaney leans over and says,
"George, it's pronounced quiche."  [Cheesy]

Poor George he is soooooo misunderstood..[^]

So are you for or against the draft, Holy?  

Nay
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Blackstream
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2004, 02:15:05 »

If I have to go to Iraq to fight a war I don't believe we should have involved ourselves with in the first place, I'm gunna be one angry mofo.
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2004, 02:15:05 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Moonburn33
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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2004, 02:45:49 »

if you're morally opposed to war you can register as an objector.  it's not foolproof and you have to be sincere.

you can also preemptively move to canada BEFORE the draft starts:)
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holy reality
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2004, 02:58:33 »

how do you register as an objector?

and uhh...

I'm for the draft...... YAY DRAFTING!!!!! ROUND UP ALL THOSE HIPPIES AND HAVE THEM KILLED!

The only sane rational for a draft would be if we had foreign invaders pouring into our borders or something, if the people don't want to die for oil, the people don't want to die for oil, if you can't get enough damn troops to fight your wars maybe you should consider why you waged them in the first place.

afterall, it's a "free country" a democratic republic, we say hell no we won't go, you should LISTEN!

I need to get out of here.....
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2004, 03:30:38 »

I would be totally against the draft as well for pretty much the same reasons as Holy. I think it's fair to say if we don't have enough people that are willing to fight, we shouldn't fight. World War II I think is a good example of how people will fight if they have a good reason. After Pearl Harbor, I'm pretty sure at least a couple million people enlisted, and that was years before we found out about the Holocaust in Germany. I would fight if I felt it was my duty to. Too bad I'm a supporter of alternative and clean sources of energy for use in the future. [Smiley]

This is something that could seriously effect me. I turn 18 in 2006. I wonder if Mexico's still an option..
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2004, 03:30:38 »



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Nay
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2004, 12:39:29 »

quote:
The only sane rational for a draft would be if we had foreign invaders pouring into our borders or something


I'm wondering if we weren't over there right now, if this is exactly what would be happening.  I don't live in NY but I bet the people of NY feel that they were pretty much invaded.

When you say foreign invaders are you talking about the thousands of illegal aliens that cross are boarders everyday?  Florida alone is estimated to have 420,000..[:O]

Nay
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kiauma
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2004, 13:45:10 »

I think he was referring to people that want to take our way of life, not just our jobs...  [Cheesy]
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2004, 14:51:24 »

go to www.sss.gov

they have all the information you want there
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holy reality
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2004, 16:25:27 »

quote:
Originally posted by Nay

quote:
The only sane rational for a draft would be if we had foreign invaders pouring into our borders or something


I'm wondering if we weren't over there right now, if this is exactly what would be happening.  I don't live in NY but I bet the people of NY feel that they were pretty much invaded.

When you say foreign invaders are you talking about the thousands of illegal aliens that cross are boarders everyday?  Florida alone is estimated to have 420,000..[:O]

Nay



9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq, it never did. Bush wanted to invade Iraq before 9/11 happened, he entered office wanting to do so.

As for New Yorkers, a lot of them are idiots, but a lot of them, including 9/11 victims, HATE Bush, HATE this war, HATE the secrecy enshrouding the attacks, HATE the censorship of 9/11 documents, HATE the gagging of anyone who was damning evidence showing they lied out their asses about the attacks. HATE the patriot act and how it is used to strip our freedoms away.

I don't think we'll see New Yorkers welcoming a draft.

But of course people will always use the good old sappy ignorant

have you forgotten... how it felt that day
to see your homeland under fire and your people blown away...
don't you tell me not to worry bout bin laden...
have you forgotten

line of thinking to justify our invasion and perversion of Iraq and Iraqi culture.

Bottom line, the Bush administration is the biggest threat to our freedom we have ever seen.
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2004, 20:13:24 »

quote:
I'm wondering if we weren't over there right now, if this is exactly what would be happening. I don't live in NY but I bet the people of NY feel that they were pretty much invaded.


We cleaned Al Quaeda out of Afghanistan pretty easily. Iraq is the big problem, and they didn't even do anything extraordinary to provoke us. Just the usual claims of weapons of mass destruction. Saddam was a bad guy, but he's already out of there. I say just hand back their government and let them do as they will. If they need any help, there's always the UN. The government's just trying to force them to elect a government friendly with us so they can sell us oil, and that's been a problem for a long time because most of the world's oil is held by Muslims hostile towards us for supporting Israel. Doesn't look like the government's doing a very nice job.

 
quote:
When you say foreign invaders are you talking about the thousands of illegal aliens that cross are boarders everyday? Florida alone is estimated to have 420,000..


It would be a sad day when the government would have to draft people into the military to take care of that problem. [Cheesy]
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Nagual
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2004, 09:19:39 »

quote:
I say just hand back their government and let them do as they will.

Yes and no...  Yes, the US should leave Iraqi people rule their country; and no, bombing the country to rumbles (almost no electricity/water/hospitals/...) and then say here you go, no more saddam, enjoy! is a little disturbing...
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2004, 11:47:50 »

In our age of equality why do only men have to register with the Selective Service?
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2004, 17:38:08 »

those pending bills would allow women to be drafted as well.
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holy reality
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2004, 17:48:07 »

the only good thing about them.

equal rights feminists... EQUAL RIGHTS.

To those of you thinking this war actually helps fight terror...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1512&ncid=1512&e=20&u=/afp/20040525/wl_afp/iiss_world_040525114556

Al-Qaeda boosted by Iraq war, warns think-tank

Tue May 25, 7:45 AM ET
   
   Add World - AFP to My Yahoo!

LONDON (AFP) - The US-led war on Iraq (news - web sites), far from countering terrorism, has helped revitalise the Al-Qaeda terror network, the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) think-tank warned.


AFP/File Photo

   

The London-based body said in its annual Strategic Survey 2003/2004 that the deadly train bombings in Madrid in March, the worst terror strike in Europe for more than a decade, showed that Osama Bin Laden's terror network "had fully reconstituted".

It also predicted the Islamic group would step up its anti-Western attacks, possibly even resorting to weapons of mass destruction and targeting Americans, Europeans and Israelis while continuing to support insurgents opposing the US-led occupation of Iraq.

The IISS pointed to devastating blasts in Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Turkey in 2003 and 2004 as further evidence that anti-US sentiment had soared since the Iraq war.

"In counter-terrorism terms, the intervention has arguably focused the energies and resources of al-Qaeda and its followers while diluting those of the global counter-terrorism coalition that appeared so formidable following the Afghanistan (news - web sites) intervention in late 2001," the report said.

However, since the war it said that arms proliferation and state-sponsored terrorism has dwindled, with Libya giving up its unconventional weapons programs and Syria becoming "less provocative."

Stalinist North Korea (news - web sites)'s secret nuclear programme was somehow contained thanks to a negotiating process while Iran agreed to cooperate with the International Atomic Energy Agency over its nuclear activities, the IISS said.

But another legacy of the war was what the IISS termed a highly questionable recourse to pre-emptive strikes as a means of counter-proliferation, as well as "the uses and abuses of intelligence as a basis for military action."

The IISS said the United States, which has dominated world affairs since the end of the Cold War, had failed to understand that Al-Qaeda's September 11, 2001 attacks were "a violent reaction to America's pre-eminence" and it urged the superpower to temper "the appearance of American unilateralism".

It warned that Washington would have a hard time restoring order in embattled Iraq and stressed that the conflict had brought a political split between the United States and its continental European allies, leaving Britain stuck in the middle.

The survey additionally forecast a possible attention shift away from terrorism, Middle Eastern problems and weapons proliferation should North Korea opt for a more aggressive stance, a humanitarian disaster hit Africa or undesirable regime-changes "produce abrupt and serious security challenges".

The United States will not manage to tackle all of the above single-handedly, warned the think-tank, raising a question mark over Europe's ability to break away from "strategic arthritis."



^ I've been saying those things forever but now I have a nifty link to back me up.
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BOATS
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2004, 00:25:18 »

Anyone look at Robert Fisk web site.  That is the reality of war.
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« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2004, 02:54:01 »

If this is WWIII, and I am called, I only hope that I may honerably serve and help the people in need. As much as I am disgusted by how the Iraqi was has turned out, I will face any fate that is needed of me, and do my best to cary it out.
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« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2004, 03:30:29 »

Read "Dirty White Men..." by Michael Moore, a bestseller, non-fiction.  Facts, just the facts about all the lies and also 9-11 stuff.  

He made a film, showing -- PROVING -- that Bush/administration already knew about the 9-11 attack before it happened, plus....the fact that they didn't give a cr*p.

Now this film was so extremely moving, so very moving, it won the Cannes Film Festival in Europe.  This is the film banned here in the US.

There are alot of facts out there that the everyday Joe doesn't know.  A ton of facts.  I listened to this guy at a formal book review here in Minnesota (over the TV it was such a big crowd)...they had tried to ban this guy's book before it came out, and the librarians got on the internet and had 'an uprising' and ordered the book for their libraries and put pressure on the publisher to where they had to publish it.  Interesting stuff.

I look forward to the day the film is shown here in the US in the underground.

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Jenadots
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« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2004, 13:08:53 »

Michael Moore is an idiot...he makes movies and is hardly a credible source of anything but his own agenda. He is certainly an expert filmmaker.  It is only a movie.  

That aside.  The proposal to reinstate the draft originated with the Democratic Congressman from New York -- Charles Rengal (might be spelled wrong).  He has been doing interviews the past year saying it is time.  He proposes all 18-20 year olds go into some sort of service.  I am not sure if he wants them all to do 6 months of basic training and then into various national services or if he thinks they should all be in the military for two years.  

But the democratic congressmen is the initiator of the current move to begin the drafting process.  

Wouldn't be a bad thing assuming the young people involved have some kind of choice as to what kind of national service they do after the basic training.  It would give them some sorely needed self-discipline and time to grow up a bit more and be a bit more appreciative of the opportunities and lifestyle that is possible here.

Of course it would decimate the universities for a while but it would make some room for all the 20 somethings that want to go back to school.  It would reduce the "Girls Gone Wild" movies for a few years - spring break just wouldn't be the same without all those drunken 18 year olds. [Wink]

My only problem with it is that it has to be fair - more fair than the last draft.  No exemptions for college or teaching or being rich or anything except a debilitating physical condition.  Last time we had a draft it was mainly the lower middle class kids and the very poor ones that went.  

Actually, I like the "you first" concept of all senators, congressmen, and executive branch children and grandchildren get to go first and right into the military units with no cushy office jobs or working for some general or admiral.  

Perhaps if the decision makers of our country had more of a personal stake in the military, they would be more cautious with the lives of everyone else's children.  

That said, we do have an obligation to give something back to our country which has given most of us so much.  This is a good way for this younger generation to make their contribution.  

And who knows when we might have to put our own troops on our borders.  The country leaks like a sieve and I am absolutely amazed that we haven't another major terrorist attack -- Yet.  However, it is not paranoid at this stage to admit they are out to get us and to get us in our own land.  Various terrorist leaders have said as much.



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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2004, 20:05:12 »

quote:
Wouldn't be a bad thing assuming the young people involved have some kind of choice as to what kind of national service they do after the basic training. It would give them some sorely needed self-discipline and time to grow up a bit more and be a bit more appreciative of the opportunities and lifestyle that is possible here.



Why wouldn't it be a bad thing for us young people to have some kind of choice as to whether or not we go into the military? You assume that us young people are in dire need of self-discipline, and that we have yet to 'grow up' (which I would find very relative), so I would guess you would also assume we're not informed enough to make our own decisions as to whether or not we go fight for things we may or may not agree with.

Thoughts like these are where democracy ends. When I turn 18, I will have the same rights as you. I could just as well tell you what you should or shouldn't do, though I respect your free will as a human being. Are you posting on the Pulse from a military installation somewhere, Jenadots? You seem so fond of the idea of populating the military, I would think you must have already enlisted long ago. And I would say I appreciate more the opportunities I would be presented with fresh out of a college, or even after some self-teaching and maybe a little professional instruction than I would from some secondary teaching out of an institution for war.

This isn't an issue that was brought about by terrorism, and it would do some people well to realize that. The guys that we were told executed 9/11 were dealt some damage in Afghanistan, and that would've gone well if we hadn't invaded Iraq. Iraq is what I don't agree with and Iraq did not pose a threat to the mainland of the US. If we had not invaded Iraq, we wouldn't need a draft because we had plenty of troops to deal with terrorist cells in Afghanistan. If a draft is issued, I say good luck finding me, US. Maybe I'll show up if a civil war breaks out.
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holy reality
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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2004, 20:36:48 »

on the subject of Moore, Farenheight 9/11 was banned in the US?

I thought the Cannes thing was just a screening permier and that we'd see it sometime this year before November definitely...?

Banning that film just cries out "I'm guilty, impeach me now!" .....

not to mention HEIL HITLER GO NAZISM YAY C*NSORSHIP!!!!!

(i hate censorship)

free country..... you can't even hear a guy say "cornhole" on office space at 9 at night? (nevermind beavis saying it a lot in various episodes of B&B... which confuses me to no end)
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« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2004, 21:24:48 »

[Cheesy] A little something Neal Boortz had to say..[Wink]

Memorial Day 2004
Monday, May 31, 2004
THANK A VET TODAY

As we all settle into our patio chairs for a sumptuous barbecue feast, or as we cancel tee times here in Atlanta because of the weather it's a good time to take stock of our current situation. First of all, if you know any veterans, you should thank them. Were it not for their service, the world today might be ruled by communism or the Nazis. Not to mention the fascist Islamic terrorist fanatics like Al-Qaeda that want to turn every country in the world into a theocracy. Just something to think about.

Now .. having said that about veterans. This is Memorial Day. We have lost over 800 men and women in Afghanistan and Iraq in our war against Islamic terrorism. If you know family members or friends of any of these men or women ... they're owed a special thanks today for the sacrifice they have made.
I used to think this saying was a bit trite. "Freedom is not free." I know better now. I know better because I've seen and read of the sacrifices being made in the Middle East, and I talked to servicemen who, once they've spent a few weeks at home with their families, are eager to head right back over there to finish the job. Right now there are troops all over the world fighting the war on terror. In a weekend where the World War II Memorial was dedicated to the greatest generation, let's not forget about these soldiers fighting World War IV. Like it or not, the world is governed by the overwhelming use of force, and we wouldn't enjoy the freedom we have today if we didn't have a military that was ready to defend it.

So if you know a family member or friend of someone who has given their all in service to their country, try to thank them for their sacrifice. And if are such a family member, my thanks to you.

Happy Memorial Day.

MORE CLASS WARFARE NONSENSE

New York Congressman Charles Rangel is at it again about this draft business, and he's as full of it as ever. "This is fighting a war with someone else's children," howls Rangel. As if that weren't bad enough, he has the audacity to make this claim: "Why should I put my kids in jeopardy when they want to do it?" Huh? The answer to that Congressman, is that they make their own decisions. They're adults, they decide whether or not they want to join the armed forces, not you.
It also seems that Atlanta Journal-Constitution editorial page editor Cynthia Tucker got her Rangel memo over the weekend too. She has also chimed in with a column saying that the poor are fighting this war for the rich.

No, what this is really about is class warfare. Rangel has his panties in a knot because enough rich people aren't fighting the war. How dare poor people sign up and fight and die in the war, just so the evil rich can sit at home. In Rangel's world, that can't be so. It must mean that the poor people joining the military have to do it...because there are no jobs. Sorry, not true. The job market is booming in this country, though you wouldn't know it reading the mainstream liberal press.

This all-volunteer armed force has proven to be one of the most effective in our history. Maybe that's what's bothering the left. History has taught us that a conscripted armed force doesn't do as well on the battlefield as does one made up of volunteers. Rangel and Tucker know that, an they know that if we had draftees and other possible malcontents serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, instead of professionals who chose to be there, the casualty rates might be higher. With higher casualty rates the left can scream their appeasement line even louder. Is that it Cynthia? Is that it Charles? Are you really upset that more men and women aren't dying so that you can shout for surrender even louder?

Well ... it's an election year, and class warfare means votes for Democrats.
One might suspect that Rangel and Tucker are playing the wealth card because there is another card they can't play. You know, the race card. The demographic data shows no racial disparity in the numbers of blacks and white serving and in those who are sadly killed.
At the bottom of this is they leftist hatred for individualism. How dare individuals volunteer for military duty? What do they think they're doing? Exercising individual rights? Don't they know that the military should be known by its group dynamics, not by individuals who volunteer to serve
?


There is nothing unfair about that which people do voluntarily.

Nay
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« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2004, 22:57:24 »

My point was that it was a Democrat, not Bush who first raised the issue of drafting all the 18-20 year olds.  Bush favors an all volunteer military.  

And Moore's film wasn't "banned" or "censored".  The Disney company, after viewing it, refused to distribute it.  They had been his distributor and decided not to.  No doubt, he will find someone else to distribute it here.  Hollywood is a business and surely he will be able to sell it to someone.

As for the draft and the 18 year olds....Yes, you do need to grow up -everyone at 18 does --those of us past that age know we did not know enough and certainly did not live enough to be past needing to grow up.

There are many ways to serve one's country.  No, I am not in the military but I have taught in the inner city schools for over 30 years and I know just how little the 18 year olds of this country actually know - and how easily influenced.  The latest brain research bears this out and clearly indicates that the brain cells keep growing and expanding well into our twenties.  It also shows that the last part of our brain to fully development is the one wherein we make rational decisions and judgments.  So yes, young one, you still have some growing up to do.  

As I said, I would support a plan that gives you some choices as to how to serve your country.  Not all service is military.  Nor should it be.  My concern is that it be fair, certainly more fair than the previous draft.  

But, as you say, you will have all the rights of adults at 18 -- or 21 in some states -- but do not forget the responsibilities that go with it.  And sometimes that responsibility includes some sort of service to your country.

The people who vote the least in this country are the 18-25 year olds.  That is a fact.  If this bill actually moves through congress, perhaps more of them will find a reason to take on that adult responsibility.  That would be a good thing.  

And last, but not least, the terrorists of Al Queda are active in over 60 countries.  They will not just go away. On this Memorial Day, let us honor and respect all those who fight them or who have been killed by them whomever, and whereever they may be.
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2004, 02:21:29 »

We continue learning throughout our whole lives. What I meant was that saying 18 year olds aren't grown up is really very relative and stereotypical, as no two 18 year olds are going to have the same experiences or 'maturity', as much as I dislike the connotations of that word.

I like Socrates' quote, "I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world." I would gladly fight for my country if I felt it was necessary or at least somewhat honorable, but from what I see the government doing today, sure, appreciate the veterans for doing such difficult things that so few of us could or would do, but that doesn't make the government's actions any more reasonable. If the Muslims want to start wars with us, then by all means, let's defend ourselves (Btw, I think the 1st Gulf War was reasonable and called for. Note that it was also a UN-sponsored event, and we didn't have to send that many troops because so many other countries sent aid. [Smiley]). Oddly, in Iraq, we were unprovoked. It's sad. All you have to do is look at the past few hundred years' worth of history to realize we're just after securing oil supplies. These are the kinds of wars I would not put my life on the line for (Gulf War I again being an exception). Frankly, anyone that would try to tell me that it's worth it to waste valuable years of my life and possibly die over trying to get more oil into the country shouldn't hold their breath while waiting for me to enlist or be drafted.

I don't really long to be proud of the US. I could easily stand living in Australia, Mexico, Germany, Ireland, if that's what it comes down to. From what I've heard about Australia, it sounds like a really nice place, and a friend of mine lives down near the border of Mexico. I'm sure there are a lot of beautiful places all over the world.
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2004, 16:57:46 »

1st Gulf War -- US sent nearly 400,000 troops.  Not that many?

United Nations -- see latest scandal over the Food for Oil Program
only one of many problems with that organization.  Also, check out who is on its human rights committee -- some of those countries are notorious for torturing - really torturing not just photo op torturing - their citizens.  So the credibility of the UN is questionable at best.

Sorry, but you haven't read enough.  Oil --  when you no longer have a car to get around in, I wonder if you will suddenly realize we do not want to steal anyone's oil, just to buy it.  

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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2004, 17:09:28 »

Jenadots:
quote:
And last, but not least, the terrorists of Al Queda are active in over 60 countries. They will not just go away.

Terrorism will not go away until the social and economic problems that cause people to opt for such desperate a measure have been remedied.

It's possible to fight terrorists by force but fighting terrorism is doomed to failure. There is a difference between the words that is deeper than mere semantics.

I agree that those who commit crimes of violence or degradation of humanity against civilians or those in custody should be caught, brought to justice and sentenced as appropriate. But how does one apprehend and try a state of existence or a set of living conditions?

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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