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Author Topic: Military draft 2005, for real  (Read 8804 times)
no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2004, 23:48:41 »

quote:
1st Gulf War -- US sent nearly 400,000 troops. Not that many?


The US soldiers didn't even represent half of all the soldiers that participated in that war. In respect to wars, 400,000 isn't really that much anyway. Of course each life is important, but with war things tend to become statistics; just one of the evils of it. There were single battles fought in WWII where more than twice that number of people died on both sides (ie Stalingrad), let alone participated. I coulnd't find total participation numbers from former wars to compare to, but I found some casualty comparisons that might give some idea. http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/casualties_of_war.htm

 
quote:
Sorry, but you haven't read enough. Oil -- when you no longer have a car to get around in, I wonder if you will suddenly realize we do not want to steal anyone's oil, just to buy it.


The government is trying to get as much control of the oil in the Middle East as it can to try to force Middle Eastern countries to sell it to us if they can. After conflict in Afghanistan, the CIA implanted a dictator that would sell oil to us, until he was overthrown in civil conflict because of mass killings similar to Saddam's, though he was still rescued by our government and given residence in Hawaii where he lived out the rest of his life peacefully. A lot of people believe that the only reason Saddam was left in power after the first Gulf War was because if we took him out, the Iraqis might vote in an Iran-friendly Muslim theocracy. That's now a concern once again, as Saddam has finally been taken out and the Iraqis will now get to pick their own government. Also as a result of the recent conflict in the Mid-East, the government now also has new bases in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan (among some other countries as well) on part of a new oil field that may be as big as or bigger than the oil fields in Saudi Arabia.
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Jenadots
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« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2004, 01:39:21 »

Afghanistan has no oil...that is why it is, and has been a relatively poor country.  

Selling oil is what the oil rich countries do.  It is how the few who run those countries got so rich.  As much as they hate "us", is as much as they love being rich.  If the Europeans, the USA, China and Japan stopped buying oil, they wouldn't be rich.  So they want to sell it.  

And until the UFO's land, there aren't a whole lot of other buyers.

And Saddam was left in power because your friendly UN did not want the US military to continue into Bagdad.  The UN decided that getting him out of Kuwait was enough.  It wasn't, but most of the members of the security council said they would not support a move on Bagdad and Saddam at that time.  They were quite clear on that point.  Hence all the problems that followed.
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« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2004, 01:39:21 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2004, 02:51:53 »

You're right about Afghanistan not having a lot of oil. Their shah was implanted by the CIA but I think I'm getting the oil situation confused with policies of the Cold War on that one.

 
quote:
Selling oil is what the oil rich countries do. It is how the few who run those countries got so rich. As much as they hate "us", is as much as they love being rich. If the Europeans, the USA, China and Japan stopped buying oil, they wouldn't be rich. So they want to sell it.


Money doesn't stop Iran from not exporting to us. They rank 5th among the nations with the most crude oil remaining, and they export absolutely nothing to us. Iraq, as of 2002, was our 6th biggest oil partner. If Iraq elects a Muslim theocracy friendly to Iran, there's certainly a possibility that much improved relations with Iran may lead to our 6th biggest oil partner getting knocked right off the list, whether people there want to be rich or not. And I think that a recent poll indicated that the Muslim theocracy was what most of the Iraqis wanted.

By the time UFOs land, we're not going to have much use for all that oil anymore.

 
quote:
And Saddam was left in power because your friendly UN did not want the US military to continue into Bagdad. The UN decided that getting him out of Kuwait was enough. It wasn't, but most of the members of the security council said they would not support a move on Bagdad and Saddam at that time. They were quite clear on that point. Hence all the problems that followed.


If the UN's that bad, we must be absolutely horrible from them not to even condone our actions. The UN may not have wanted to continue on to Baghdad, but as we've seen, that apparently doesn't mean much to our government. I'm sure we had our own reasons as well, with the possibility of losing Iraq as an oil partner being one of them.
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Nagual
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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2004, 07:34:25 »

quote:
Michael Moore is an idiot...

Ohhhh... reallly?  That's some first hand information we have here!!! Thanks!
quote:
It is only a movie.

So it will be very easy for the Bushes to prove him wrong I guess.  We'll see...
quote:
And Moore's film wasn't "banned" or "censored". The Disney company, after viewing it, refused to distribute it.  Hollywood is a business and surely he will be able to sell it to someone.

So, how come Disney refused, since Moore's previous films brought back millions of $$$ and this one is expected to do as good???  Disney is not into business?  Or they just don't want to displease their Florida friend: Jeb Bush maybe...?  "Disney receives tax breaks for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where President Bush's brother, Jeb Bush, is governor."
Anyway, Moore's found independant distributors; so the film will be shown anyway.
quote:
So yes, young one, you still have some growing up to do

And I know many so-called "adults" that are way more immature than some 18yo kids...
quote:
Afghanistan has no oil...

Nope, they don't.  But they are in the middle between oil fields in Turkmenistan, and the plants in Pakistan...  And the Talibans refused to let a pipe go through (http://www.newhumanist.com/oil.html).

Damn, and you are a teacher???  Poor students... [B)]

Face it, the military just need fresh meat.
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Jenadots
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« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2004, 16:38:20 »

No...lucky students.  I teach them to think, read, research, question, analyze...entirely Socratic Method.

They now know that much of what is presented as fact is mere speculation, manipulations of half-truths and statistics, opinions based on erroneous and faulty logic.  

They are free to say and write anything as long as they prove it including addressing conflicting evidence, expert opinion, facts and contradictions.

92% will go on to some sort of college and they do quite well.  The others go to work or the military.  

So pity them not.  They have learned to read a lot, question all sources of information, and they have learned to think and research before accepting anyone else's version of anything.

Unlike most classes in the USA, there is no memorization or parroting back anything in my classes.  I am merely their instructional guide who shows them the how-to's of research writing and in-depth reading.  The rest is up to them and the depth of their intellectual curiousity.
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« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2004, 16:38:20 »



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Nagual
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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2004, 06:30:42 »

Great, so how come you don't follow it yourself...?
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narfellus
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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2004, 13:06:39 »

I suppose i'll hop on folks and say something. First off, i don't follow politics, so a lot of what i've read on this thread is very interesting. It's nice to have a group of well-informed people disputing the facts and lies. As far as the DRAFT, well, i'm out of the age limit, not by far, but packing my sh** up and hauling me to another country would make me a very unhappy camper. My Dad has worked with the VA for two decades, and i know for a fact that the survivors from a brutal war like the "conflict" in Iraq suffer from PTSD the rest of their lives. The survivors are ususally traumatized emotionally, physically, and to an extent spiritually as well. This goes the same for the "enemy"

We really really shouldn't have gone over there. Like attracts like, as the saying goes, and the pain and death disturbed there has only increased the scale worldwide. I'm sure millions of Americans were preaching REVENGE for 9/11, particularly those who knew victims. If i had known someone, i might have too, i dunno. I would certainly have been upset.

Mandatory draft is going to tinkle off a lot of americans. I don't think at this point in time that there are enough supporters of the Iraqui War to have people jumping off their couches and grabbing a gun. Vietnam has some very similar parallels to this, and that whole war probably carried on a decade from beginning to end. The atrocities already committed by both sides in this conflict are brutal and pointless, each trying to drive fear and instability into the other. A mess, generally speaking, with no easy recourse. We've charged in, blown crap up, and dug ourselves a nice little hole.

(sigh) One of these days we'll learn to stop killing each other, but it'll take awhile.
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Aileron
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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2004, 00:04:32 »

This is funny topic. I have been discussing it in other forums on the net for some time.

The legislation for the draft will most likely not pass, as a high number of those first siding with it, have now opposed it.
It doesnt matter though, even if it doesnt pass by then, if the military still needs more people other pressures will be exerted to pass a different legislation.
I find it funny though that the government in trying this is attempting to trap its citizens by not allowing anybody into canada, those running to the mountains for freedom will be extradited (spelling wrong?), and those in the educational system will neither have the option of staying out either.

Our forces are being stretched very thin, and many of the governments officials are stressing.
This is why military forces are being pulled out from other countries to head to iraq and why the tour of duty for many are now being extended.

So it sounds like everyone once again disagrees with each on how this should be played out and how it will affect everyone.

here are my opinions.

one; michael moore actually does know what he is talking about, at least in his own point of view. His studies are more than research but opinion and interviews, and in fact probably has better sources of information regarding any of these topic than anyone on these boards.

two; I think all people including us "Young" people should have a choice as to whether we join a military force or not. It should not be up to a government to choose who fights for them. It would be for them, not for the country mind you.
The draft use to only be a final choice if chaos insued, but now is being used to protect the ideals of an american standard in democracy and living.

A government instituting this is a police state and should be taken from power.
The decleration of independance states clearly that if a majority of people believe their government to be doing wrong, they have a choice to come together and fully institue a new government. I for one believe that without the power of choice, a revolution will take place in many states.

I dont care how old one is, if they believe the draft to be a good thing, they are lost to those young people who will have to suffer for them.
Yes thats right, I dont think the older citizens have a right to tell its young people to go die for them, or to force them into their military.

I would rather die than fight for america. I would not fight for any country, anywhere.
This is my planet, and I am not an American, I am a human being.
I have the choice to live or die. So do you.

You can give me statistics all you want, tell me what would help the economy whereever or why terrorists do what they do. You can throw numbers in my face and how we can help our country the most. There is nothing that would change my mind on this.
It has nothing to do with my youth, because I may not have been around as long as many others, but this does not mean intelligence comes from age. Neither wisdom. Experience only means so much without applying it to your life.

I would put my life on the line for;
My family
my friends
any stranger
the entire planet

not a countries ideals

whoo!
that was exhausting.
[|)]
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spiral
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2004, 03:08:58 »

quote:
Originally posted by Aileron

I would rather die than fight for america. I would not fight for any country, anywhere.
This is my planet, and I am not an American, I am a human being.
I have the choice to live or die. So do you.




Right on brother![8D]

Patriotism is a form of control, I guess we could pledge allegiance to our planet.. but then aren't we also beings of the universe, but then what if there are parallel universes.. arrrrrrrrgh! when will the madness end!

"I pledge allegiance to myself and to my higher self for which I stand. One being, under me, indivisable, with liberty and justice for me"

...and you can quote me on that[Cheesy]
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gothpyre
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« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2004, 06:04:18 »

I am not for or opposed to war, I fell if I am presented to fight for something I belive in then I will, I am not going to war because Bush is a f%$*up.  Bill Clinton may not have been the best but at least he acted human and most people can relate to him.  He also made a monica a house hold term. he he he just kidding[Wink]


Easy up on the old vernacular please, Txs S!


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Eric g
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« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2004, 13:12:09 »

quote:
Originally posted by Aileron



I would put my life on the line for;
My family
my friends
any stranger
the entire planet

not a countries ideals

whoo!
that was exhausting.
[|)]




Excactly my thoughts... For myself I made the desicion not to be a so called patriot. I won't rally around the flag.. I won't die for some politicians brainfarts... I refuse to be cannonfodder for those who don't give a toss about the people which they should serve!

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Jenadots
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2004, 22:03:44 »

Once again, it is the Democratic New York Congressman Charles Rengal who is pushing for this.  He is all over the media, wanting it.  And won't that be the price Kerry will have to pay for his support in New York if he is elected?  Just a thought.  

The Congressman from New York will get a draft bill pushed through Congress somehow.   He has been in Congress a long, long time and has a lot of "favors" to call in to get support for it.  And he doesn't want just some 18 to 20 year olds, he wants all of you.  

He has a whole lot of reasons why.  Just catch him sometime on one of the news talk shows.  You will get an earful. He is very convincing and very avid about it. Am I just being skeptical by thinking it is already a "done deal"?  He is like a bulldog -- once he's got his teeth in something, he doesn't give it up.  

In other words, happy basic training to all my newly graduated friends.[Wink]  I wonder who they will get to do the training or where they will buy enough uniforms from?

Oh, well....it does seem to be on the way regardless of who wins the election.  If the bill gets to the Congress floor, it just might pass.

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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2004, 22:22:38 »

quote:
Once again, it is the Democratic New York Congressman Charles Rengal who is pushing for this. He is all over the media, wanting it


LOL..this is why I dislike politics, I thought all the Democrats were against war and draft and such..?  So now I guess people can give Bush a break huh?...  

Kerry is scary, he admited to such atrocities as killing women, children and burning villiages in Vietnam.  His excuse...everyone else was doing it.. Yikes...scary, scary man.. If he gets elected, I have no idea what I'm going to do, move to Australia me thinks. James you got a extra room for me? [Wink]

Nay
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Jenadots
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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2004, 01:14:56 »

Hi, Nay.  Glad I am not the only person who sees how scary Kerry is.

 He has already said he will not withdraw the troops from Iraq so I don't understand why he is such the darling of some of his supporters.  If Kerry wins, they will instantly become pro-Iraqi war and publicly admit they favor a draft.  They will find some reason to say that tho it was a bad under for Bush, it is OK for Kerry.  

Drafting everyone is really about control - control a whole generation. It is supposed to become the great equalizer amongst the kids.

There is definitely an agenda there, but nobody really wants to talk about it except Charles Rangel.  The rest of the democrats are just ignoring it, pretending it isn't really there and are amazingly silent about it.  Silence, of course, implies consent and agreement.

As a teacher of that generation, I think their training sarges might be in for a few surprises.  Of course, nothing compared to the shock the kids would get.  Those of us past the draft age really wouldn't know who to feel sorrier for.  [Wink]

Training is all well and good, but it would break my heart to see another generation decimated by whatever war they believe is coming.
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Kodemaster
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« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2004, 02:34:39 »

quote:
Originally posted by Moonburn33

go to www.sss.gov

they have all the information you want there



Straight from their website:

quote:
Notwithstanding recent stories in the news media and on the Internet, Selective Service is not getting ready to conduct a draft for the U.S. Armed Forces -- either with a special skills or regular draft.
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Tippa
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« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2004, 16:36:05 »

I don't think we  need a draft.  

I think we should just nuke the damn country.  They b**ch that we're over there yet the ones doing all the damn b**ching are the reason why we're still there.  Maybe if we nuke them, they'll be more worried about making sure their teeth don't rot from the fallout, and stop their damn whining and complaining.

But that's my opinion.

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Nagual
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« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2004, 07:16:46 »

quote:
I think we should just nuke the damn country. But that's my opinion.

The millions of Iraqi civilians are happy to know that nobody cares about your opinion... [xx(]
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holy reality
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« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2004, 01:33:14 »

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5834001&content_dir=ua_congressorg

Spread it everywhere.
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