New Scientist's paper about OBE

[cobalt]

Thought that some of you just might have it interesting to read:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12531-outofbody-experiences-are-all-in-the-mind.html

[psychodynamics]

Also see here...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6960612.stm

lol cobalt, you beat me to it

[Tongo]

Hmmm so are they saying that this is proof of the soul or not? 

[tvos]

AP Friends,

Proof is in the experience and validating your own concrete claims. Lets not forget that the projectionists don't wear helmets, or get prodded in the chest to achieve this level of consciousness. Also, many of these neurological scientific studies don't take in consideration healthy patients during trauma vs. the dying. I've done my own research for the last three years and whole heartdly tracked times, what I ate, amount of sleep, categorizing the experience. I've seen a constant value that the obe's occurr close to each other monthly to yearly, amount of sleep is a factor, and validations. The results are impressive and are natural.

I do think science might find the key to allow 'us' successfully reproduce anytime at 'will' the obe and allow us to connect with the spiritual body and that will change a lot. Still never less, there will always be that debate - science, religion and spiritual projectionists. There is so much science can't explain and will never be able to.

As we explore deeper into space finding water where it can breath life... just imagine!

Tvos

[kiwibonga]

The experiment has nothing to do with out of body experiences... They're moving the point of self awareness while the subject is wide awake... Interesting... But not an OBE! Call it short-range remote viewing, perhaps...

I saw another article a few weeks ago about a scientist who uses magnets to trigger "OBEs" in people... His "proof" that OBEs are all in the mind is the fact that putting a strong magnet near a certain area of the brain causes you to feel a presence in the room.. His subjects don't even have an actual OBE!

Here, it's not even clear that the scientist himself was trying to "disprove" OBEs... It looks like the people writing the news somehow decided to not only claim proof where there is none, but they've got their OBE facts wrong too!

[cobalt]

I think they are just doing what they can, according to our current theoretical knowledge and technological possibilities. Yes, it might be small steps, like starting with things they can probe(point of self awareness, different feelings felt during OBEs, it can all lead to whats causing them) but at least they are trying to get somewhere instead of denying OBEs at all as some nonsense.

[T.L.]

I believe that they will try to use this as the "final word" when it comes to obes though. If they dont thats great if they do then its laughable. That is why I say that imitating something or duplicating an effect does not verify nor deny its reality. Also it does not mean that the way you created the effect is how the effect is always created. There are always different paths you can take to the same destination as someone else, and either one could not be considered the right or wrong way as you both ended up at the same place. Having said that a quote from the paper mentioned: "It gives you a very strong sensation you're sitting somewhere else" Okay Ive had a strong sensation I was some where else that did not mean I had a obe, once again its laughable. A good example was sitting in a chair staring at a full length mirror for an extended period of time, concentrating on the fact that perhaps I am not where I think I am to be instead I could be the person staring at me from inside the mirror. This was an exercise I thought of to practice consciousness/awareness placement or displacement. A good 20 minutes of this and with a little zoning off I was no longer sure which me was me. Sure it was a weird and confusing sensation but it was not life changing, truth be told I forgot about that exercise till just now when I was thinking of a close example.
  It certainly felt as though I was the other person in the mirror and sure it confused me. Such as the experiment mentioned confused the experiencer but I am sure they will not walk away from this with a life changing attitude. The main point was it was an physical illusion they witnessed. Now how many people who have had a full blown obe walked away from the experience completely changed especially in the way they view life? Probably around 90 percent and the others are scared to death but never-the-less changed lol, after all that is what motivates me to record my experiences and what keeps me here to talk about it with others to help them to achieve what I have, so that they too can be changed in this way.

[bjb1234]

This doesnt sound like they reproduce an OBE at will does it....

Not at all

Its more like visual suggestion from what i was reading

People expecting to feel something so they did....

Feelings can be reproduced by suggestion, i mean under hypnosis you can feel things you have felt before, taste things you have tasted before...  this can happen even without hypnosis. 

Maybe i have wrong idea about this experiment, but from what i read, its not got much to do with actual OBEs at all.

We know you can stimulate the FEELING your out of the body.  But you cant trigger a full blown OBE.

[catmeow]

So they put some people in VR helmets and surprise surprise they feel as if they're in VR land!  What did I miss? Hello?

These experiments simply moved an individual's "point of view" to that of a camera located a few feet behind their physical body.  The subjects then (surprise surprise) reported the sensation of feeling "as if they were out of the body" and viewing themselves from behind.  Call me stupid, but what exactly did they expect?  Is this meant to be a big deal?  ... cos if so I'm a dandelion....

All they are doing is reproducing the exact conditions of an OBE, ie moving the point if view to behind the actual physical body.  They do this using a VR headset whereas in a "real" OBE the point of view (we assert) actually does move without the need for a VR headset.  But the resulting sensation is obviously going to be the same in both cases.  You don't need any GCSE's to figure this out...

This is research?

[iNNERvOYAGER]

A good example was sitting in a chair staring at a full length mirror for an extended period of time, concentrating on the fact that perhaps I am not where I think I am to be instead I could be the person staring at me from inside the mirror. This was an exercise I thought of to practice consciousness/awareness placement or displacement. A good 20 minutes of this and with a little zoning off I was no longer sure which me was me.

Awesome little experiment. A lot less expensive and actually an image of much higher fidelity than a video VR illusion.

Can you see what appears to be an institutionalized preconception about what OBE is supposed to be to these researchers?

Their simplistic concept of OBE is that it's all about looking at one's body from an offset position and that all you do is float around obsessed with looking at your physical self. ( lol )

I have never looked at, or even had the desire to look at my physical body because I'm aware of it, and know of its state of health, however, I'm instinctively concerned about learning how this lighter body works and to take the opportunity to explore. 

When I wish to look at my "body" in this state, I want to observe the current vehicle of my consciousness, and I see my ethereal arms and hands. At that point, my identity is the lighter body. As I said, the last thing I wish to do is to look at the physical body.

[Mustardseed]

Science is always trying to disprove phenomena that do not accept as possible. Science is by definition concerned with logic and provable fact.

Having a OBE experience is more than a physical sensation it is a spiritual condition. An interesting experiment would be to use this technique on a person who knows and are capable of conscious exits and ask him/her if the sensation is the same. This however is not accepted, as it would require them to have faith in such a person.

It is easier to use it on a person who has no experience with such things and then make various conclusions and insinuations that supports their own postulate.

Regards Mustardseed

[bjb1234]

Well like most people, to me we are 3 part beings, sorta a trinity

Body
Mind
Spirit

Body is like your computers hardware, the keyboard, screen, speakers, microphone etc...

Mind is like your computers RAM memory (temporary) it remembers everything from this life.  The mind is also like a processor and a download devise. (If your mind is damaged the information it "downloads" can get messed up, for example hullucinate, ive heard of cases where blind people who was blind all there life have been able to see and describe things during an OBE).

Spirit is like your big hard drive, it stores everything about you from all lives it has access to hidden worlds etc... 


I think what im trying to say is you can manipulate the mind to believe something is there that isnt, but this cant example the thousands of NDE where people can remember information that have seen, for example there doctors notes, or even events that happened on other floors of the ward.  Niether does it explain alot of peoples experiences with OBEs.

I dont know much about OBEs or anything really, but im setting my life out to learn and teach others.

I keep getting dragged between religion and free thinking spirituality tho lol.

[cobalt]

I think most of you are too negative and have too little tolerance against science. I mean, the idea of science forces it to begin in such ways. Science needs to know the details. It cannot philosophize about OBE in general. So can you suggest any better way/place to start seriously research obe in a scientific way, than to start with physical senses. Is there anything else we can probe?

I mean, if we could at least by any means detect or measure any of the spiritual stuff(like astral body and similar) im sure we would do so. but now we are only able to research our brain physical conditions and stuff.
I believe it would be much smarter to work with people who are actually able project, and test from where their senses and brain states come from.
Anyways, dont judge scientists so hardly, they just needs to do it their way, and maybe some they they will be able to define word spirit in a rational sense.

[MisterJingo]

Science is always trying to disprove phenomena that do not accept as possible. Science is by definition concerned with logic and provable fact.

Science never ever tries to disprove anything. Science tests an hypnosis, and then determines its truth from the recorded observations. Other people can test the hypothesis too. Science does not actively accept (or reject) anything at all. It is simply a method of observation, nothing more or less. I’m not specifically picking on you Mustardseed, but I’m shocked at the lack of education, especially on the scientific method, which is found on the majority of boards which purport to ‘spiritual practices’. This then results in people being negative about science (which is caused by their own lack of understanding of the subject).
It might surprise you Mustardseed, but philosophy and indeed metaphysics by definition are concerned with logic and fact, such features are their very bedrock and foundation.
Provable fact is nothing more than shared consensus reality. If you really wish to do away with provable fact, then even spiritual subjects become meaningless, as each person defines their own term’s and perhaps even language to talk about those terms in. Why is there such negativity towards finding a commonality in which to share experiences? Being anti-science is being against the sharing of experience, being anti-science through lack of education is worse.

Having a OBE experience is more than a physical sensation it is a spiritual condition.

What exactly is a spiritual condition? What exactly is spiritual? If we refuse to use logic and ‘provable fact’, why are we even sharing experiences on this forum?

An interesting experiment would be to use this technique on a person who knows and are capable of conscious exits and ask him/her if the sensation is the same. This however is not accepted, as it would require them to have faith in such a person.

Faith is useless in the scientific or even objective domain, as irrationality is at its core and it stifles any attempts at defining a commonality. Such as I can have faith that OBEs are actually the cause of clockwork elves polishing my toenails and so causing them to irradiate orgone energy which dissolves my body and places me in the zozo dimension. Another person might believe me mad based upon their faith in OBEs being aliens beaming holographic simulations into their head.
Faith is a dead-end as it ignore anything to the contrary of faith held beliefs, even if those beliefs could be proven to be 100% wrong (I’m not saying such a feat is possible).

It is easier to use it on a person who has no experience with such things and then make various conclusions and insinuations that supports their own postulate.
 

What conclusions or insinuations (a biased word) did this article actually state? Why are your own ‘faith based’ experiences and consequent conclusions reached from your own OBEs any less wrong or negative than the results of this experiment?
People fail to see that this experiment was about ‘out of body sensations’ not about the ‘out of body experience’, but it seems many are so desperate to hold on to their own beliefs they attack anything they perceive to counter their own desired faith held beliefs.

[MisterJingo]

I believe that they will try to use this as the "final word" when it comes to obes though. If they dont thats great if they do then its laughable.

What grounds have you got to believe this? Why do you actually believe this? Don’t you see you are doing exactly what (groundlessly) you accuse science of doing?

That is why I say that imitating something or duplicating an effect does not verify nor deny its reality.

Can you post any examples of things where shared repeatable experience does not prove the reality of those things?

Also it does not mean that the way you created the effect is how the effect is always created.

Agreed, but I’ve not seen anyone claim such a thing.

There are always different paths you can take to the same destination as someone else, and either one could not be considered the right or wrong way as you both ended up at the same place.

Once again, agreed, but I don’t see anyone denying such logic.

Having said that a quote from the paper mentioned: "It gives you a very strong sensation you're sitting somewhere else" Okay Ive had a strong sensation I was some where else that did not mean I had a obe, once again its laughable.

A recorded observation is laughable because? The article is talking about out of body sensations, not THE out of body experience. Sensations in which one perceives themselves to be removed from their body is different from the perception of actually believing one is removed from their physical body.

A good example was sitting in a chair staring at a full length mirror for an extended period of time, concentrating on the fact that perhaps I am not where I think I am to be instead I could be the person staring at me from inside the mirror. This was an exercise I thought of to practice consciousness/awareness placement or displacement. A good 20 minutes of this and with a little zoning off I was no longer sure which me was me. Sure it was a weird and confusing sensation but it was not life changing, truth be told I forgot about that exercise till just now when I was thinking of a close example.

Did you also laugh when you experienced this? Why has an experience got to be life changing oto have any merit or use?

  It certainly felt as though I was the other person in the mirror and sure it confused me. Such as the experiment mentioned confused the experiencer but I am sure they will not walk away from this with a life changing attitude.

Why has the experiencer got to walk away with anything to make the experiment useful? Data was gained, insight into our body perception was gained, so it was a success.

The main point was it was an physical illusion they witnessed. Now how many people who have had a full blown obe walked away from the experience completely changed especially in the way they view life?

Why the obsession with changing ones view of life? If I huff a load of chemicals which causes brain damage my view of life will be changed. Does that make it a good thing?
Also, how can you be so certain that your OBEs have not been a physical illusion? I mean really, how can you ‘know’?

Probably around 90 percent and the others are scared to death but never-the-less changed lol, after all that is what motivates me to record my experiences and what keeps me here to talk about it with others to help them to achieve what I have, so that they too can be changed in this way.

To quote yourself:

That is why I say that imitating something or duplicating an effect does not verify nor deny its reality.

If you truly believe this, why bother keeping a log or sharing your experiences? You admit doing such things does not in any way verify their reality. You are honestly open to the fact that OBEs might be brain induced? Or is the quoted comment wrong?


Once again, I’m not focussing on you, but I get dismayed when I see people being so openly biased about something they either know little about or purposefully misinterpret that thing. Most people in this thread seem to be attacking their own misreading of the experiment. Such things make me lose hope that people are actually looking for any kind of truth, rather than happily wallowing in their own beliefs regardless of any new knowledge or facts.