New Scientist's paper about OBE

[T.L.]

"an OBE is merely a dream where you position yourself as if you're outside your body.
You allready have a map of the world in your brain so if you're in a dream you can float around in your preconscious where you are aware of what reality looks like in your memory, because every single detail is allready stored in your subconscious."

  This theory you have made seems to be a mixture of your own ideas and the experiment this thread started out talking about. The problem with this theory other than most others experiences being to the contrary is that if you were right in this theory the obe experience would be severely guided by ones expectations. If one can remain impartial while in an obe and then check up on a friend or someone you know, what you might expect them to be doing and what they are actually doing are two entirely different things.
    My experiences in projections were almost always not guided by my expectations what so ever. In relation to geographical information etc.. There have been times when in a projection I run into a part of my town I have never seen, and I think to myself this cant be real. Only to realize that the place I experienced is real, I just never happened upon the place because I never drive on that road. I think there are a ton of reasons why you have the opinions you do, but I dont see any reason to express them here because I know already what you would say. You would just state the exact opposite like anyone else to try to prove that your opinion is not just based on a theory you came up with, with no first hand experiences at all. I think we all realize this thread has run its course. We all agree to disagree =-)

[Sharpe]

I ain't gonna give you the last word to make you feel better, psht.
If you actually think you go out of your body, why don't you take randi's 1 million dollar test?

[Stookie]

All of this is theoretical. The best way is for each individual to search within themselves. The answers found there are much more conclusive (albeit subjectively). Then, instead of telling someone else what you found and expecting them to adopt that belief system, you give them a way of finding those answers themselves, as you have. They may still find different answers, but they've exercised there own will and thinking. Pointing people in the right direction is much more productive than telling them where their flaws are. I think that's what the Astral Pulse is about - sharing ideas, tips, & tools. Not pushing beliefs.

It seems the only way a scientist in a lab could produce results which everyone could believe is hard conclusive physical evidence, like a good video that can be reproduced over and over in different circumstances. But how in the world do you get a physical object from something non-physical?

Maybe the only way to prove something non-physical to people is to help them have their own non-physical experience.

[T.L.]

    I would love to. I dont think though they have the patience to monitor me night after night while attempting to project. Some days I can project and some I cant. Its not very controllable in that manner. Also its not as simple as taking the challenge, you first have to sign up, fill out their paper work. Send it in. Then wait. Some get answered some don't. Then if you do get an answer and they want to put you to a prelim. test you have to pay for the investigators flight, stay etc.. That would mean hundreds just to get the guy to test you, then if it takes 4 days to a week to get project you will be paying for his stay where-ever he decides to stay. When the person succeeds it gets worse. They have to wait to go to do the initial test and needs to get a hundred percent success. If there is even one wrong answer given or 1 percent failure rate they throw out all of the successes. I know this because Ive personally spoken with a few claiments stating that they were ripped off by that challenge and even randi himself. He has a personal axe to grind when it comes to anything paranormal, he doesnt believe and some will say he doesnt want it to exist. Any proof shown to the contrary is just thrown out.
   Dont get me wrong the sword is a double edged one. The same can be said about people who believe in the paranormal. Any evidence given to them that what they experienced was not paranormal they will just throw out in the belief that they are right no matter what. For example someone swears that a "ghost" is opening a door in their house but its just a draft caused by some wind tunneling effect when certain doors/windows are opened and closed. Then when shown the evidence they still disagree with the findings. I have no intentions of coming into contact with people of that kind of mindset, because right or wrong you are the loser in that kind of situation. You can find numerous discussions about randi's "challenge" on multiple forums for legit complaints about it.
   That's neither here nor there though. Whether or not you believe that I do really project myself does not change the fact that I can and do. I would be happy though if you did experience it because its a very freeing thing to experience. There are physicists that say without the consciousness what we perceive the physical world to be wouldnt exist. So in a way the physical world we are living in is just an illusion created by our consciousness, not the other way around. There are other physicists that believe the old occult principle of like attracts like. They explain it in the way that everything exists on a vibration level of some sort. (Which everything does) The difference between something being solid, or not, visible or not visible is the vibration level that said thing is at. Like visible laser light and not visible laser like (infared). There are frequencies that remain undiscovered. Never the less anything that is not close to our vibration we can not experience. This is how those physicists would explain the "law of attraction" That sort of explains why people who always think they are sick do get more ill than the average person, and those who say they never get sick, do rarely get sick. Those who say if I didnt have bad luck I would have no luck at all, always have bad things happen to them. So who are we to say that these physicists are wrong. Life is pretty ambiguous and sometimes there are answers that are both right and wrong. Henry Ford said "Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are right"

[Sharpe]

Now wowowow, first of all the law of attraction doesn't exist, because it's just a marketing scheme.
I mean isn't it obvious?

But, forget about that I just want to talk about the randi challenge, you can't just ignore the challenge.
It's still 1 million dollars, if you are so sure of yourself that you can actually do it, who cares about whatever you need to pay for...
IF you can do it, you will get paid, if you can't, then you will lose a bit of money...
But it's obvious you're sure enough, so why not take the shot, you have nothing to lose if you win.
1 million dollars is take-20-years-off-money.

[catmeow]

I have to agree with TL regarding the $1million challenge.  It's just a scam. Randi devises the test, monitors it and then judges it.  If you perform 100% success, he has the right to make you repeat the test until you fail, at which point he will declare you a fraud and rubbish you in the press.

A true test should hold 1$million in trust and allow an independent panel (not Randi) devise, monitor and judge the results. Otherwise it is biased in his favour.  Who on Earth would trust a self-proclaimed trickster (Randi) to arbitrate this test?  You'd have to be insane.  No one will ever win the 1$million because Randi will never pay it.  So just forget about Randi.  In scientific terms the challenge is worthless, it's just a good marketting scam.  Anyone who knows anything about science will realise that you need an independent protocol, independent, ideally double-blind invigilators, and the rules can't change if you're unhappy with the results.

I have personal experience of ESP which in my opinion is highly difficult to explain in terms of anything other than ESP.  That's why I take it seriously. Despite what Sharpe said in an earlier rambling generalisation, my education level is good and I'm not in the slightest insecure about my "status".  I don't need to believe in things because it makes me feel important.  I'm inclined to believe in ESP because I had some inexplicable experiences.  The most convincing was hypnotising my mother and telling her to "travel in her mind" to locations which she then described accurately, plus other abilities she had while hypnotised.

I've seen Randi claim that he can reproduce everything that Geller can do (Geller on balance probably IS a fraud), but the Amazing Randi's sleight of hand was so transparent and clumsy the guy was a joke.  Other things he attempted like ESP and cold-readings were so unsuccesful in front of a studio audience they had to be cut from the final broadcast, and repeated until they worked.  So his claim to be "amazing" is wrong too.  At least Geller is a superb technician.  Not only is Randi a fraud with respect to the 1$million challenge he also gives third rate magicians a bad name....

[Sharpe]

I have to agree with TL regarding the $1million challenge.  It's just a scam. Randi devises the test, monitors it and then judges it.  If you perform 100% success, he has the right to make you repeat the test until you fail, at which point he will declare you a fraud and rubbish you in the press.

A true test should hold 1$million in trust and allow an independent panel (not Randi) devise, monitor and judge the results. Otherwise it is biased in his favour.  Who on Earth would trust a self-proclaimed trickster (Randi) to arbitrate this test?  You'd have to be insane.  No one will ever win the 1$million because Randi will never pay it.  So just forget about Randi.  In scientific terms the challenge is worthless, it's just a good marketting scam.  Anyone who knows anything about science will realise that you need an independent protocol, independent, ideally double-blind invigilators, and the rules can't change if you're unhappy with the results.

I have personal experience of ESP which in my opinion is highly difficult to explain in terms of anything other than ESP.  That's why I take it seriously. Despite what Sharpe said in an earlier rambling generalisation, my education level is good and I'm not in the slightest insecure about my "status".  I don't need to believe in things because it makes me feel important.  I'm inclined to believe in ESP because I had some inexplicable experiences.  The most convincing was hypnotising my mother and telling her to "travel in her mind" to locations which she then described accurately, plus other abilities she had while hypnotised.

I've seen Randi claim that he can reproduce everything that Geller can do (Geller on balance probably IS a fraud), but the Amazing Randi's sleight of hand was so transparent and clumsy the guy was a joke.  Other things he attempted like ESP and cold-readings were so unsuccesful in front of a studio audience they had to be cut from the final broadcast, and repeated until they worked.  So his claim to be "amazing" is wrong too.  At least Geller is a superb technician.  Not only is Randi a fraud with respect to the 1$million challenge he also gives third rate magicians a bad name....

I don't think the randi challenge is a fraud, because like I said before, imo your brain needs to fill the gap to make your theory about the paranormal normal, because the brain cannot handle vagueness, it needs clarity, it needs 1 map of reality not multiple, if your theory isn't entirely true and your brain senses your beliefs are starting to lose, it will try to find flaws in all the other theories about reality and they will be eliminated in order to leave 1 in your map.
Which equals = your map of reality.

Now I'm not saying your status is low or anything, I'm not saying you need to feel important (although everyone wants to be loved by others, so I can't see the logic in that lol), maybe you want clarity of your existence, maybe you're searching for the truth.

But as far as I can tell, paranormal phenomena just complicates things.
And they're still theories by humans, with no proof whatsoever.
And isn't it weird that paranormal things only happen to people that believe in it?
Obviously it's all in their heads.

[malganis]

I don't think the randi challenge is a fraud, because like I said before, imo your brain needs to fill the gap to make your theory about the paranormal normal, because the brain cannot handle vagueness, it needs clarity, it needs 1 map of reality not multiple, if your theory isn't entirely true and your brain senses your beliefs are starting to lose, it will try to find flaws in all the other theories about reality and they will be eliminated in order to leave 1 in your map.
Which equals = your map of reality.

Now I'm not saying your status is low or anything, I'm not saying you need to feel important (although everyone wants to be loved by others, so I can't see the logic in that lol), maybe you want clarity of your existence, maybe you're searching for the truth.

But as far as I can tell, paranormal phenomena just complicates things.
And they're still theories by humans, with no proof whatsoever.
And isn't it weird that paranormal things only happen to people that believe in it?
Obviously it's all in their heads.

I agree with you on your mind making a map of reality and disregarding conflicting beliefs. What if you would turn your logic around?
Mind finds evidences for whatever it believes now that being in paranormal or not.

[T.L.]

    Im sorry sharpe your reasoning for believing what you do is just nonsense to me. Does one try to mold the truth to make his/her belief fit into the "scheme of things" sure, that is what anyone does who's trying to make a point as to why they are right. When I started projecting I took a step back and observed what was going on with me a ruled out everything one by one. I didnt believe in projection or obe's a long long time ago,as a matter of fact a friend wanted to discuss some of his experiences and I blindly shrugged anything he had to tell me off like he was crazy. I see now that I was the blind one.
     After careful experimentation, and over 80 obes later I have to say the validations Ive had is overwelming personal proof. It is a subjective topic when comparing notes from ones experience to the next because people experience and interpret things differently. If one sees a very bright energy, another sees god instead. If you have a circle of people maybe about 5 sitting in a circle. One reads a sentence in the first persons ear and so on down the circle till the last person hears it, if you ask the last person to repeat it. It will be way out of context when compared to the original sentence. So many people interpret things differently. When it comes to obe's though and what leads up to them everyone is in agreement usually and most of everyone experiences things like a loud buzzing sound, sometimes roaring, and vibrations, and a loud click. Some of which could not even be considered physical sensations. So either all of the hundreds of thousands of people who report obe's are right or they are all "dreaming the same dream" or having the same delusion which is said to be not possible anyway. As far as the laws of attraction go, I never said it is my belief. I also dont buy self help books lol, I have just seen references to physicists who believe it exists. I have also taken from my experiences in the projection state. Also the experiences of others who talk about fear...etc.. when in the obe state. What they think or fear will happen usually does. Its no different from a person who believes tylonel will cure his/her flu if he/she actually believes it will then it usually does. So yes their arguments are very valid ones.
     You saying that some of these things holds no water because the brain builds your own map of reality, not only seems wrong, its nonsense. Im sorry that you see things otherwise, Im always a firm believer of experimenting and seeing who is right. After all you are a materialist, so experiment yourself and see for yourself. There really is no point in arguing about it, just go see for yourself.

[Sharpe]

First of all, none of what I say is nonsense, it's logic.
And don't accuse me of not having experimented it before.
Though I didn't want to get in the vibrational or whatever state you want to call it.
I felt that and it was like something pressing (pressure) against your ears and your brain and the more it sounded the less you could hear of what actually is happening in the real world.
And then... I opened my eyes in the dark, I was still in my room, staring onto my left, I saw it looking at me.
A 3 feet tall gargoyle.
And then something scary happend, it jumped towards me and i closed my eyes screaming.
It was just like a dream.
No air in your lungs, limpy arms, clumsiness and you can't scream.
Then I woke up filled with adrenaline.
I do not think that that was an OBE, you know why?
Because it was pure hallucination, I have no theory about hallucination without stimulants nor sleep deprivation, but I'll think about it today, and post a theory tommorow.

[T.L.]

Actually I didnt say everything you said is nonsense. I said your logic to me is nonsense. That and just coming up with theories about how the world works or doesnt overnight is comical to me as well. Arguing back and forth about what you think and what my experiences tell me isnt going to help anyone. Really what we are doing here isnt what this forum was meant for. Im not going to sit here though and perpetuate this argument further. Im sorry if anything I said offended you. Regards,
                                                         T.L.

[Sharpe]

It seemed like offending me was your primary objective lol...
And about coming up with theories on how the world works over night, what the hell man?
You don't think about reality or anything?
The thing I do is, I view, look back on what I have actually learned, eliminate any bogus claims, don't trust what I view, but I trust what I've learned that puts all the pieces of the universe together and come up with a perfectly logical explanation.
This works with everything.
Now if you accept the claims given to you instead or assume it is what it looks like, you might think like the ancient egyptians did.
There have been many people in the history that allready invested time in discovering the truth, some of them gave their life to find it.
Why not take what they've learned instead of you making your conclusions by just going in OBE 80 times?

Don't worry about my overnight conclusions, I take what they've learned and try to find a more... logical explanation to OBE.

If OBE truly existed, what would the world be?
Just another world out of 8 spiritual ones?
How are brains connected to eachother to the other worlds?
Why are only humans possible of doing something like this?

We view things with our eyes, we hear with our ears, but it gets more complicated when it goes to the brain.
After you've sensed feelings, hear sounds, seen things, these are put in your hippocampus in your brain correct?
So how come when you go to the astral plane, you still have all your memory?
Never mind that, how come you take your whole brain over to the other side?
Isn't your brain matter?
So you take only your brain to the astral plain, nothing else?
How about eyes? Ears?
You can't exactly see without your eyes and hear without your ears.

And just drop that point lol, why in heaven dear god and our saviour jesus' name, would you need an astral plane to begin with?
Isn't evolution's purpose to evolve/progress in lifeforms, for whatever reason it is?
Why the hell would the universe give any entity the ability to go to the astral plane?

And I can see the point in cats having claws and dogs having sharp teeth...
It's made to survive, so evolution can progress.
How on earth does astral projection help with anything?
If people would astral project every day, they should put him on IV therapy and drug him with marihuana so he can FLYYYY everyday, feeling wonderful.

Sadly, this isn't what evolution is build on.
Evolution wants us to move forward, so any kind of fatigue will give us depression or the idea that you should be doing something better with your life.
So this breaks down that whole "actual-OUT" of-body expirience.
And still, the logicly obvious remains: It's merely a dream. A lucid dream.

[cobalt]

I apologize that i havnt followed all of the conversation, bit i saw some phrases and it seemed wrong to me.
The idea, that if obe happens in our brain means its not real? Why not? If we assume that brain is i (which i believe is only partially).
Then we could call any expierience unreal. Even the real life in front of your eyes. If one had red a basic theory of sight, colors and vision (even such as written for photographers and artists, not some doctors), you would see that the picture you feel you're directly seeing just isn't there in front of your eyes... all the shapes, colors and objects are pure creation of your own mind - interpretation of enormous amounts of raw data being fed into us or created within us...

...Maybe...

Btw i recommend reading something about "Boltzman Brains". i guess one of the best places to start at would be here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain

[T.L.]

"We view things with our eyes, we hear with our ears, but it gets more complicated when it goes to the brain.
After you've sensed feelings, hear sounds, seen things, these are put in your hippocampus in your brain correct?
So how come when you go to the astral plane, you still have all your memory?
Never mind that, how come you take your whole brain over to the other side?
Isn't your brain matter?
So you take only your brain to the astral plain, nothing else?
How about eyes? Ears?
You can't exactly see without your eyes and hear without your ears."

   You are too stuck on the physical aspect of everything, that is what Im trying to tell you. You are making too many assumptions. Sure information we gather is categorized in the brain, we are in agreement on that. Whose to say that is the only place memories are stored and accessed. Why is it that in altered states of consciousness memories long forgotten are spontaneously remembered etc.. You are assuming that the brain is absolutely the only place memories are stored. You are assuming that consciousness itself only exists within the human brain, even many leading scientists dont even subscribe to that way of thought. Some admit that they dont know if consciousness itself is literally "in the brain". Without our consciousness we would not even be able to see, hear, taste,feel,smell. Our hands, eyes, nose, mouth, are just interfaces in which physically we experience the senses as we know it, but in order to experience those senses of the physical body we need our consciousness.
    So if we need our consciousness to do all these things in the physical, it is very safe to say that if obe's are a possibility if you can bring yourself to admit the possibility, and you seperate the consciousness from the constraints of the physical. Consciousness alone can recreate these sensations. As long as you arent suspended in the physical and are only existing within the mental.
   There is sort of an example I can relate here, is it your opinion that your ears are the only way to hear period? Can you give me an example in which one could hear without the ears? The reason I ask is because the way you talk you are only viewing from one perspective only. There are tons of possibilities and to only believe in one ultimate existence would be a fools choice, especially when no one can claim to know all about existence. The nonphysical does not follow physical principles as we know them to be. The brain is a tool in which our consciousness can interact with the physical, so yes without the brain we would not exist and wouldnt be capable of a physical existence. That does not mean however the brain created the consciousness. Im not attacking you personally either like you said I was. I was just stating my opinions on the way you look at things. Never the less sorry if you thought I was. Regards,
                T.L.

[Sharpe]

Ok I like how we're communicating now, and I'd like to point out a few little details.
I don't neccesarily believe in consciousness, how weird it may sound.
I believe the brain is made up of binary code, meaning: everything is perfectly programmed and there is no free will whatsoever.
It is true we know very little of our brains, but we know enough how the info travels from where to where, just thinking, it's a lot of info if you look at the brain and its functions, if it's so much info and you bind all that info together you MIGHT create "consciousness".
But ofcourse this is just a hypothesis.

Also I'd like to add: Whose to say that is the only place memories are stored and accessed. Why is it that in altered states of consciousness memories long forgotten are spontaneously remembered etc..

Freud said that when you dream you take a peek in your subconscious, your subconscious is the place where your personality, deep beliefs and sexual desires are.
So it wouldn't suprise me that you were conscious in your subconscious when you OBE, which is something extraordinairy to say the least, so it isn't going to another plane, but it's something.