New Scientist's paper about OBE

[iNNERvOYAGER]

 Hi Sharpe, thanks for the link www.brainmind.com , that's a good one.

from wikipedia "theoretical physics "
"Modern theoretical physics attempts to unify theories and explain phenomena in further attempts to understand the Universe, from the cosmological to the elementary particle scale. Where experimentation cannot be done, theoretical physics still tries to advance through the use of mathematical models. "

A famous example is the discovery of how to detect black holes by Stephen Hawking. When black holes were purely theory, Hawking created a model that predicted that black holes actually emit x-rays from the event horizon. As a result, black holes are now detected and are a scientific fact.

"Where experimentation cannot be done"

I recommend that you start with the basics, as you would in any field of study. (IE, jumping directly to the advanced course might not help.)

 The investigation of hypnogogic imagery      (setting aside the subject of audio atm (sounds of beautiful chorus and polyphonic symphony.)
With the modern advancements in 3D graphics, we know that all imagery can be described mathematically and in terms of geometry. (described but not necessarily explained, but it's a start) In my work, I use a 3D engine as a visualization tool, and hope to be able to create emulations of this experience as a form of visual documentation.

We start with the mental practice that enables us to make observation of what appears to be "imagery from another world".
Instead of using the word, "meditation" lets say for example, "mental/brain concentration exercise" instead.

While in good health and with a clear respiratory system, find a quite room, and sit in a comfortable reclining chair.

Practice relaxing the body, releasing tension in the muscles, and with eyes closed, focus attention to the visual field.
When you do this, you naturally focus on the area between the brows.

Quiesce the mind and ignore the inner chatter until it's as quiet as possible. For example, similar to reading without mentally vocalizing the words.

Eventually ( as in my experience, taking years of practice) you will notice that the blank visual field takes on a 3D void appearance.
Imagery begins to form in the void, beginning with vague cloud like donut shapes, to vivid sharp and detailed natural looking cloud formations. (Why are clouds in the sky so fascinating?)
My observation is that the cloud imagery is not from memory of clouds I've seen, rather that the mind is visualizing the geometry of mental structures that are derived from the same fractal like expressions that result in actual cloud formations in nature.

That's the beginning.

With regular and routine practice, observation of imagery that exceeds the beauty and creativity of most artwork can be seen in vivid detail, from the indescribable intricate multi color textured abstracts to scenes of majestic forests populated with an endless variety of plants.

At times the imagery takes on a technical theme, and geometry of architecture and unusual machines can be seen.

As you progress, you will eventually be able to "step" into these scenes and explore with high Fidelity, while maintaining full memory and lucid consciousness.

And, this is sort of the first step.

Where does the imagery come from?
I could say that this is created individually by my brain in isolation, or that I could be seeing something that we all share on a quantum level for example.
Based on the theory that synaptic processes depend on quantum functions to solve the sense of perseption.

A note on hypnagogic imagery and audio  : in the diagnosis of schizophrenia, hallucination symptoms are "Aside from hypnogogic and hypnopompic hallucinations"
In my case, this never happens spontaneously, and requires a deliberate initiation of a process to achieve this state. So, no, I'm not hallucinating as a result of mental illness.

 - I V

[Mez]

I could say that this is created individually by my brain in isolation, or that I could be seeing something that we all share on a quantum level for example.

Have you read Franks phasing resource?

Focus 2 is your subconcious and anything you create from that is created by your brain in isolation but going further Focus 3 becomes once again (like Focus 1 (physical)) a common consensus reality "something that we all share on a quantum level".

The 3D blackness or that void is halfway between F2 and F3 so you could use it to access either.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

Have you read Franks phasing resource?

Yeah, I like to refere to that when people talk about the fear of "going out of the body"
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_obe_discussions/danger_of_oobe_or_lucid_dreaming-t26718.0.html;msg222124#msg222124

This thread starts with an article about a research project of tactile sensory disassociation with the help of VR goggle monitors.

The problem is caused by an ignorant journalist, Andy Coghlan, making off the wall assumptions and conclusions about the research.

"Out-of-body experiences are 'all in the mind' 19:00 23 August 2007 NewScientist.com news service, Andy Coghlan.

I was just trying to explain to Sharpe that it's not realistic to begin learning about a subject by jumping to the most advanced part, and that I'm suggesting to begin with the basics first. The first part of my post follows along with Frank's description of how you start the basics of phasing, and relating my personal experiences.

What are your personal experiences in regards to Frank's description of phasing?

[Mez]

i found franks resource to be rather enlightening... after my first AP I got the feeling that I didnt really go out of my body but I also knew it wasnt a dream and that I had a level of waking conciousness throughout. This means I had to be somewhere but I didnt know where... in light of what frank said I was probably projecting to Focus 2. Ive never really tried phasing as such (the whole 3D blackness thing) but I am super keen to give it a go.

As for going "out" of the body the idea of overlays (in the RTZ case a F1/F3 overlay) is rather interesting and certainly IMHO very valid.

Anyone can say OBEs are all in the mind (and that you dont really go out of the body) but if you look closely at what frank says about Focus 4 (kinda like the source of it all?) technically we may think we are physically moving about all day long but we never actually go ANYWHERE... its all in our mind.

[Novice]

Haha, well I just want to know the truth, black and white is how I like to see things because it gives control.
But it immensely jeopardizes happiness.
Because in some way I think, we aren't supposed to know the truth.
And to know the truth we need to ignore any human feelings.

So you are basically a hard core analytical type...(not bashing, simply making an observation). In my experience, the world is not black and white. It is more like one giant gradient scale of grey. Truth and fact are not the same thing; truth is highly subjective.

Would you agree that we live in a world of duality/polarity? One thing cannot exist in this world without co-existing with its opposite. You can't have hot without having cold. North doesn't exist without south. Up and down are inseperable. The truth is that these opposites exist quite harmoniously in the world (assuming humans don't mess with them). The opposite of logic is emotion. Anyone who is emotional is never logical and vice-versa. I don't believe 'the truth' can be found in living by one to the exclusion of the other. I think 'the truth' is that both are needed in balance to truly live life.

Now, you can raise the issue, as you have also done, that happiness (and I'm assuming other emotions as well) are all an illusion. This is not a new concept. Indian's refer to it as maya. They consider this world an illusion. Pain and happiness are simply illusions. I agree with some of this concept, but not most of it.

But, in my opinion, the universe is build on logic, so you need to turn off your feelings to grasp the actual truth instead of the wrong ones, any feeling will bend the logic the wrong way, the way you want it to go subconsciously.
We believe what we want to believe instead of the truth imo.

I think belief and truth are closely linked. Something is true for you because you believe it. Wanting to believe something doesn't make it true. You don't believe in OBE's, therefore they aren't true for you. However, OBEs are very true to me because I've experienced them. Because of those experiences, I believe in these types of experiences. Although I don't believe every experience I've read, and there have been a number of them that contradict my own experiences. I only go with my own experiences because those are the only ones I can really judge. As a result, my beliefs are constantly adjusting as my experiences expand.

Now all of the people on this board could make post upon post of their own experiences and why they believe OBEs are real. But I doubt you would believe a single one of them. Why? Because you've never experienced anything like then, therefore you don't believe they're true. I know I didn't believe any of this stuff before I had my own experiences. And like Selski's suggested several times, if it is something you want proof of, you need to look no further than the person looking back at you in the mirror.

Regardless of the 'proof' anyone here provides, the only thing you should put your faith in is what you yourself experience. Otherwise, its too easy to let beliefs run rampant and take control of logic. This is one of the reasons why I think logic and emotion are partners in life. Without logic, life is chaotic and rampant. Without emotions, life is grey and hollow. However, if the two are happily married... 

Just a few thoughts!

[Sharpe]

Look pal, I don't know what you're trying to say here, but you can look at reality in any way you want.
The point is not how YOU look at it, the point is how it is.
It always will stay the same, yes there may be 2 poles, but it's easier to look at them with 1's and 0's then to illogicly add the grey part with it.
And in the end it will only lead to reality being 1.
Emotions are always what they are and what they will be, a program to guide us to what evolution desires of us.
Now unless you can look above that, I do not wish to believe anything you are saying even if my feelings say to do so because you use such poem in your writings.
This, I know is just a feeling an emotion given to grasp the same knowledge from movies which is exactly the way you are communicating.
If a movie has a message it will use a close up with strong and hope-full words to give a message to the viewer.
This is what society has thought me, but what reality has thought me is more important.
It thought me that everything is crystal clear and that folks wisdom just complicate things.
If everything isn't clear and it's grey somewhere in the middle, what's the point?
I'm not going to believe it just so I can have the feeling of security, that everything is under control, because it's not.
And that's fine with me, because this gives you the oppertunity to DO everything you want, without thinking of morals and if something is good or bad.
It's just the feelings that limit it.
In the end, there is no good or bad, if good is helping someone else out, I think that's the most hypocritical thing ever.
You act like you are against using people, but you use them to make yourself look good in their eyes.
Just to increase your prestige towards people.
And the funny part is, this isn't done consciously, it's all unconscious behaviour.

Now I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, just thought I had to get this off my back, don't blame me, I'm programmed this way.

[Mustardseed]

Actually this is very much like some Hindues argue. They kall it Karma. In other words Fatalism. I am what I am I cannot and will not fight against it. I will do what I want to do whatever my fancy is, and I am not really responsible.......I am programmed this way.

This seems to advocate a common disregard for social rules, norms, and cultural codes, as well as a almost impulsive behavior, and indifference to the rights and feelings of others. Would you say that you believe that this is a good thing.

Regards Mustardseed

[Selski]

Hi Sharpe

but you can look at reality in any way you want.
The point is not how YOU look at it, the point is how it is

This is a tricky one, because personally I believe that the point IS how you look at it, not how it is.  Actually, to be honest, I don't believe there is a POINT to anything at all, but that's a different discussion... 

If I may, I'll give you an example.

Let's take two children brought up in different households.  Let's look at their lives pre-nursery school (or pre-kindergarten if you are American).

Joe is brought up in a very hateful atmosphere.  He is regularly beaten, abused and has never experienced affection or love.  He learns to fight for attention, to cheat, sneak and lie, as that is what he sees his parents doing.  It is natural for him.  When he gets to school age, he will believe that every family is like his, it's as natural as breathing.  It's all he knows.  It is reality.  Truth.  Fact.

Jim is brought up in a very loving atmosphere.  His parents show him affection, care and attention, without mollycoddling him.  He learns to listen, smile and be happy as that is what he sees his parents doing.  It is natural for him.  When he gets to school age, he will believe that every family is like his, it's as natural as breathing.  It's all he knows.  It is reality.  Truth.  Fact.

What is the actual Truth?  It is neither, but it is one or the other for each child.

The Truth we know can only be based on the experiences we have had so far in our lives (in my opinion).  My Truth before I had ever heard of/experienced OBEs was that I doubted they existed.  Luckily, I've always been open to possibilities and perhaps because of this openness/curiousity, I was able to project.

Truth is a very very moot subject.  So many people wail, "I just want the Truth!"  My belief is there isn't such a thing as One Truth - there are billions and billions and billions of truths - my truth, your truth, Novice's truth, Mustardseed's truth, Mez's truth, etc., etc., etc.

This is what society has thought me, but what reality has thought me is more important.
It thought me that everything is crystal clear and that folks wisdom just complicate things.
If everything isn't clear and it's grey somewhere in the middle, what's the point?
I'm not going to believe it just so I can have the feeling of security, that everything is under control, because it's not.

I'd love to know what you mean by crystal clear.  What's the point of it being crystal clear?  Actually, I'd love to hear what IS the point in your opinion. 

I like the idea of everything NOT being under control.  I'd love for the universe to be one big random chaos thing - that means anything could happen next, which I find exciting.  I suppose this is to do with my beliefs in endless possibilities - the reason I believe this is because it makes me happy 

Don't blame me, I'm programmed this way

This is a cracking quote.  Many years ago, my ex-hubby and I used to go down the pub, have a few drinks and have conversations about life and what it means, all that usual pub stuff.  He came up with a theory that everyone can only be themselves, there is no free-will.  We discussed it for hours, as I felt it was flawed in some way, however I couldn't put my finger on the flaw.  We even discussed the fact that anyone who murders or rapes is excused from the crime because they were always meant to be that way - it wasn't their fault if you like.  The reason I couldn't put my finger on the flaw is because the theory is a clever little circle that you can't break - it always comes back to "you can only be you, you will only ever do what you are supposed to do"

Your quote reminded me of this.  What are your thoughts on after/before life.  If you say you are programmed, does this mean that you believe someone/something has programmed you, or did you programme yourself before you landed on this earthly realm?  Again, just curious as to your views.  As you know, I believe in endless possibilities so whatever you say is most likely going to be of interest to me.

The trouble with saying that you KNOW the Truth and the rest of us can believe what the hell we like leaves little or no room for discussion.  Which is a shame because this is a discussion forum, to share views/opinions and listen to others.  After a while, members will become frustrated with your "all-knowing" attitude and will either attack or make fun of you, as you have experienced.  And the added problem is that the subjects we discuss here tend to be subjective and based on personal experience, which is not like joining a discussion forum about whether a chair is a chair is a chair...    You will always get different views/opinions/facts/truths. 

One of our most respected members, Frank, claimed he knew the Truth, above all else.  For me, when someone starts talking like that, I tend to switch off and it has the knock-on effect of disbelieving everything they have ever said/will say, which is a shame.  However, that is most likely because of my upbringing and the experiences I have had thus far in my life.  Or it might that I am programmed that way! 

Sarah

[Novice]

First off Sharpe, take a deep breath and calm down.

Apparently I was unclear in what I was saying, so let me try it again.

Look pal, I don't know what you're trying to say here, but you can look at reality in any way you want.
The point is not how YOU look at it, the point is how it is.

By "the point" I'm assuming you mean reality? If so, then I disagree with this statement. Reality, fact and truth are not the same things. What I was trying to explain was pretty much what Sarah put into concrete examples with Jim and Joe. Reality is what you perceive it to be. To take this further, if you put Jim and Joe, with their backgrounds as Sarah described them, into the exact same situation as an adult, they will react differently. Not because the situation is different, because their perception of it, based on their own history/experiences is different.

I'm not going to believe it just so I can have the feeling of security, that everything is under control, because it's not.

If you re-read my post you will notice several times I mentioned not believing what you read just because you read it somewhere. In fact in the last paragraph of my initial post, I said NOT to believe anything you read about this stuff until you can prove or disprove it for yourself. I have never and will never suggest someone "take my word" on something like this.


Lastly, Sarah is correct about this being a discussionforum. You mentioned elsewhere that you came here to discuss these things. Yet, when someone presents their own views, you stomp them down without considering them. That isn't discussion. Additionally, most of the topics on this forum are about things that can be neither proved nor disproved with science. Its all a matter of belief. And you are free to disagree as much as you want.

However, if you post here, people will respond. Now whether they respond politely or rudely is dependent, for the most part, on the tone of your post. So, going forward, I would suggest you think about what you type before you type it. If someone posts something that doesn't make sense, simply reply with "Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying." Simple respect towards other members is one of the stipulations of the acceptable use policy here.

[Sharpe]

Hey, I just noticed a few things in the last 3 posts, I'd like to share my thoughts about that.

Free-will and reality.

I don't know how there can be more "truths" or "facts" then just 1.
Let's divide them from what we are thinking.
Selski you say that what humans think the truth is, is the truth, but this is subjectively.
Objectively there is just 1 reality.
That is what I think everyone wants to know.

In my map however, I believe humans are no more then matter.
Just look at it logicly, can you say that a human being besides you is conscious?
Can you say that you are conscious?
Why?
Just because you think you are doesn't mean you are, you could've just been programmed to think so.
Besides that point, if someone was conscious of what he was doing all the time, the consciousness couldn't catch up. Consciousness can be just a simple program not a complicated multiple reality/universe thing.
That's why we have a subconscious, it thinks for us.
So if there is a thing like the subconscious, what's the point of the consciousness?
That is where I always get stuck, but I will figure it out sooner or later.

So my belief on this subject is that there is no "me" "your" or "us" it is all 1.

"What are your thoughts on after/before life"
Well I honestly think everything that lives, follows the same rule that was given by DNA, it is build on progress.
The program in our brains was developed for this purpose, that's noticable.
So if it was just a code, the way the brain was programmed was mostly luck, or maybe not, maybe even THAT was in the DNA code of the first living creature. - My theory, not proven.

[malganis]

So if there is a thing like the subconscious, what's the point of the consciousness?

Subconscious caries out what ever consciousness tells it. It doesn't question your thoughts. You can be conscious of only 7 bits of information at any moment of the time but the subconscious can be aware of much much more so it has to filter that information of you would be flooded and there comes the filters and maps. Subconscious takes care that you are aware of informations that are not in contradiction with your map of reality.

So if two people look at the same situation they would interpret it differently according to their beliefs and experiences they had or in other words depending in what reality tunnel they are living. For example one man is a avid meat eater and another strict vegan and they go in the wild and they see hunter who caught a deer and the first one say great, have a goulash while vegan frowns upon it and making him sick. Same situation different interpretation. Was the act of killing the deer good or bad? Who is right and what is the truth?

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as absolute truth but this definition of enlightenment makes sense. Enlightment is the freedom to choose, unfettered by ignorance, attachment, prejudice, fear, or coercion.

[Sharpe]

Subconscious caries out what ever consciousness tells it. It doesn't question your thoughts.

No that's not it.

I do in someway agree to the last part about enlightenment.

[Novice]

In my map however, I believe humans are no more then matter.

I agree. Human beings are made of matter. However, I also beleive that we (you, me, and any other sentient being) operate through physical bodies to interact in the physical world. I believe that we are seperate from those bodies and thus, what happens to them only affects 'us' (our consciousness) to the point at which we allow it.

Just look at it logicly, can you say that a human being besides you is conscious?
Can you say that you are conscious?
Why?
Just because you think you are doesn't mean you are, you could've just been programmed to think so.

That is certainly a possibility. Not one that I agree with, but it is a possibility none the less. If you are correct, then all of our discussions here are essentially moot. Everything we do, say and think is irrelevant. In fact, thinking is really an illusion too then. If we were 'programmed' to think these types of things, then our thoughts are merely pre-programmed responses. They mean nothing. And if they mean nothing, than none of this can be real.

Do I understand your theory on this?

Besides that point, if someone was conscious of what he was doing all the time, the consciousness couldn't catch up. Consciousness can be just a simple program not a complicated multiple reality/universe thing.
That's why we have a subconscious, it thinks for us.
So if there is a thing like the subconscious, what's the point of the consciousness?
That is where I always get stuck, but I will figure it out sooner or later.

Ah, I disagree with this. The subconscious does not think for us. Science (if you agree that psychology is a science) has shown that the conscious part is where we do our active thinking. The subconscious is what controls/operates basic functions, eliminating the need for conscious thought. These are rote functions, and thus, only need a "simple program", to use your terminology. Maybe you meant to reverse these? I don't know.

I had to chuckle at the "consciousness couldn't catch up" comment. I'm not sure what you meant by it, but it sounded funny. I envisioned this brain running hard trying to catch up to a body.    

Remaining conscious of all your actions is no easy feat, however, it is possible. That, I believe, is a goal every individual should strive for. (again, my opinion only). The subconscious is the seat of emotions and history. From it is how we color our view of the world. The conscious part of the mind is the logical side. That is the part that can be an objective observer. If I understand your theory on this, I would have expected you to advocate the conscious over the subconscious -- logical over emotional.

Just out of curiosity, have you read any books on autocratic societies? This is essentially where it seems your beliefs/theory lie. If so, do you see them as true or real?

[Sharpe]

That's amazing, I was just reading "The Prince" just a minute ago before I checked for a response lol.

The last part in your reply is a miscommunication I think, or maybe I just wrote something different from what I meant.

I mean that the subconscious is a spunge that programs itself after it has the knowledge of prohibiting or allowing any thought that is different from what is morally accepted as "normal" to reach the consciousness.
Sorry, I shouldn't have used the word "think" in my last post.
Maybe, the subconscious is located in the amygdala and also the hippocampus, forming the subconscious.
But I read on brainmind.com, that the part that limits or prohibits thoughts for reaching the consciousness is the frontal lobe, which is logical after experiencing how alcohol works.
Alcohol firstly anaesthetizes the frontal lobe, it should enhance any functions the frontal lobe has.
So like we know the first effect of alcohol is that you do things that you normally wouldn't.
If what I said above made sense we now know that the subconscious is also a part of the frontal lobe.

But I have not enought knowledge to go too deep on this, or else I would mess up everyones maps that reads this (if it isn't true), I apologize.

Maybe the most simple metaphor I can give about what I meant is any small form of life.
They certainly don't have consciousness, or they do but they just don't have the tools to communicate.
But taken the first case, the animals are doing fine.
And if small forms of life can live without the consciousness, why do we need it?

I still don't feel like I have said exactly what I wanted to say, but there's a really good movie on, so I'm going to go watch that.

[T.L.]

"transplanted organs affected the personality of the person who received the organ. Personal characteristics of the donor were caried over to the other person. For example a guy got one organ (i dont remember exactly which) from a person who died in early twenties in motorcycle incident and who liked eating chicken and led unhealthy lifestyle. Then that guy started eating chicken although he never ate it before and started to act differently. Some people also gor memories from other person."

  malganis, wasnt that the movie "body parts"? Heh. Im just being sarcastic, my apologies. I get tired of reading replies by opponents of the obe experience, especially when they claim to have had an obe but knew it was just a dream. Each is in the right to have their own opinion, but a lot of what some of these opponents claim seems like only a semi lucid dream, where they have very little control over the dream itself. I dont think a lot of what some of these people described was a full blown obe in the first place. When I first had semi lucid dreams it was interesting to say the least, but I would never mix a lucid or semi lucid dream up with obe's I would only do that if I never had an obe. Thats okay though, whoever wishes to worship the physical and materialism are in a way trapped but in the physical mindset they are right to. If I were to look at this argument from the physical side and mindset I would say that the ones who are were completely in the right. However looking from this from my perspective and from my point of view its an illogical outlook. No matter what evidence or proof I put up will do anything to sway someone looking from purely the physical aspect, and vice versa. However in the debate aspect I think that a lot of people are losing direction, with comments such as "you are getting upset because you can't win fair and square". Come on most of you are beyond these comments, however not all of you.