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Author Topic: A Thought on Astral Projection  (Read 4637 times)
lo_ri_der
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« on: December 26, 2005, 03:37:33 »

Since DMT has been found to be naturally produced in the brain, as well as the effects of taking it being drastically similar to the experience told when someone is APing, including the vibrations, isn't it entirely possible that all an OBE is is just a rapid release of naturally produced DMT in the brain?
DMT is said to be a stronger hallucinogenic than mushrooms and LSD. Couldn't experienced projectors just be really good at unknowingly releasing large amounts of DMT into their bloodstream?
This is very interesting. What is there to say that an OBE is not just a wild hallucination produced naturally in the brain?
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Ben K
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2005, 04:37:17 »

the dmt experience is nothing like a lucid dream/astral projection experience.

its a THEORY that dmt is naturally produced in the brain.
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2005, 04:37:17 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Draege
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2005, 06:30:58 »

Astral Projection / Dreams, lucid or not, are capable of being as real as the "real" world we know while awake. The only thing is we generally don't fully realize this until we experience them in that lucid state (having full self-awareness). To say that this is all in our heads is to say that each human brain is capable of creating a reality equal to the universe itself. This alone is proof enough for me that this is most definately something metaphysical.
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lo_ri_der
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2005, 06:52:59 »

The brain is capable of many things. Honestly I don't know what to think about this.
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Ben K
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2005, 07:25:25 »

lo_ri_der,

think of our minds as a television tuner and what we see as our "reality" is the image on the screen. when you take drugs like psychedelics they simply open up your perception to other "channels".(with a very low degree of control compared to say, a lucid dream)

this is why the belief popped up that psychedelics are somehow the "quick" way to "spiritual enlightenment." It opens up your mind to concepts that you generally are not prepared for. Some are, some arent, and so people will have "bad trips." Does that explain it to you a little better?

PS- the brain doesnt have much to do with what you experience while dreaming or on a psychedelic trip. your brain is a product of your mind, not the other way around contrary to what popular science BELIEVES. the main function of the brain is to run your physical body as well as provide sensory input. when you take drugs you alter this input with non-physical stimuli, aka "hallucinations". these are the "channels" on the t.v. screen i talked about. so it could be said that drug trips are basically lucid dreams with a low degree of control. If you have ever had a proper lucid dream/astral projection you would feel the difference right away.
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2005, 07:25:25 »



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jalef
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2005, 14:52:32 »

just make your own experience.
learn to project and compare. then you can make your own theory.
whatever someone says, you will never be convinced until you made your own experience...
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lo_ri_der
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« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2005, 20:19:46 »

Hmm, good advice, good input too. Here's a link to another similar discussion, some of you may find it interesting: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21384&sid=88963bf6cb32958bbffe798044e0be6f
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2005, 20:45:45 »

Quote from: Ben K
the dmt experience is nothing like a lucid dream/astral projection experience.

its a THEORY that dmt is naturally produced in the brain.


The DMT experience is remarkably similar to the AP experience. Read the clinical trials of Rich Strassman to see experiences which mirror those of AP experiences (and even alien abduction episodes), even to the extent of low dose DMT experiences producing the 'vibrations'.
 I have friends who have both AP'ed naturally and taken Ayahuasca on numerous occasions (some having smoked DMT) and they freely state the remarkable similarities between the experiences.

Regarding DMT being endogenous as just a theory, there is science backing it. One paper with details can be found here:

http://tripzine.com/pit/DMT_TA_anxiolytic.pdf

There are more scientific papers out there for those who wish to look.


A quick question regarding the Brain being generated by the mind, how did you reach that conclusion? I've had such thoughts in the past, but it seemed a dead end avenue to me (personaly) as everything can just be dismissed as a product of the mind. In regards to the brain/mind generating our perception of reality based upon sensory data, then the brain is generated by the brain/mind Ė but this is our perception of it not the reality.

Psychedelic trips can be aborted by the use of certain chemicals which are known to act on the same receptors of the brain as the taken psychedelic. Are these receptors and chemicals just beliefs? Also how does tolerance and cross tolerance come into effect when taking psychedelics?
I'm also curious about the fact that the one state in which we do have a Brain (physical reality) is the only stable state we experience. Everything else (dreams, lucid dreams, day dreams, rtz projection, AP planes etc) is highly inconsistent and can change and fluctuate based upon desires. Is this coincidence? Why is the one area of mind which creates a 'brain'/perception of a having a brain so stable, and quite resistant to individual desire or belief system types when no other area is?
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2005, 21:19:58 »

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I'm also curious about the fact that the one state in which we do have a Brain (physical reality) is the only stable state we experience. Everything else (dreams, lucid dreams, day dreams, rtz projection, AP planes etc) is highly inconsistent and can change and fluctuate based upon desires. Is this coincidence? Why is the one area of mind which creates a 'brain'/perception of a having a brain so stable, and quite resistant to individual desire or belief system types when no other area is?


This is a very good question and one I'd like an answer to myself. I think it's the question as far as OBEs are concerned.
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2005, 22:45:30 »

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I'm also curious about the fact that the one state in which we do have a Brain (physical reality) is the only stable state we experience. Everything else (dreams, lucid dreams, day dreams, rtz projection, AP planes etc) is highly inconsistent and can change and fluctuate based upon desires. Is this coincidence? Why is the one area of mind which creates a 'brain'/perception of a having a brain so stable, and quite resistant to individual desire or belief system types when no other area is?


This might seem simplistic, but one answer to this is that humans, as spiritually evolving beings, have a "home" state - the state we call the physical. We evolve from here...

It is a stable state for various reasons, for example, in order to learn certain lessons you need a state where simply waving your hand won't make a million gold coins appear. You could argue that strive and conflict and suffering is necessary for certain lessons to be learnt.

But then again, I think we (especially in these "modern times") underestimate the power of the mind over our environment.
The mind is powerful even in this so called stable physical state we are in. I'm not saying you can fly around like superman with only the power of your mind, but with the appropriate effort and mindfulness you can do a lot more than you probably thought you could in the physical.
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2005, 23:00:19 »

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I'm also curious about the fact that the one state in which we do have a Brain (physical reality) is the only stable state we experience. Everything else (dreams, lucid dreams, day dreams, rtz projection, AP planes etc) is highly inconsistent and can change and fluctuate based upon desires. Is this coincidence? Why is the one area of mind which creates a 'brain'/perception of a having a brain so stable, and quite resistant to individual desire or belief system types when no other area is?


This might seem simplistic, but one answer to this is that humans, as spiritually evolving beings, have a "home" state - the state we call the physical. We evolve from here...

It is a stable state for various reasons, for example, in order to learn certain lessons you need a state where simply waving your hand won't make a million gold coins appear. You could argue that strive and conflict and suffering is necessary for certain lessons to be learnt.

But then again, I think we (especially in these "modern times") underestimate the power of the mind over our environment.
The mind is powerful even in this so called stable physical state we are in. I'm not saying you can fly around like superman with only the power of your mind, but with the appropriate effort and mindfulness you can do a lot more than you probably thought you could in the physical.


Perhaps. But many AP gurus agree that we are just visiting 'Earth' and could be evolved from entirely different locations, so we are just humans for the duration of our time here. Such as Monroe originaly being some energy being from a non-physical location.
As to your second thought, I used to think this too. But babies, who have no social conditioning and have no concepts of physical laws which govern this place, never perform any unnatural actions. Surely such beings freed from limiting belief systems would be defying the laws of physics on a regular basis?
Spiritual evolution is an on going process. Do we stop learning once we get to the astral (where we can create anything we could ever desire)?
If not, and if we can visit the astral any time we wish (but are currently being blocked by belief systems as many say) any lessons we learn here through lack of things we desire (such as gold coins) become meaningless, because we could just zip off to the astral and fulfill such desires.
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2005, 23:52:11 »

Quote
I'm also curious about the fact that the one state in which we do have a Brain (physical reality) is the only stable state we experience. Everything else (dreams, lucid dreams, day dreams, rtz projection, AP planes etc) is highly inconsistent and can change and fluctuate based upon desires. Is this coincidence? Why is the one area of mind which creates a 'brain'/perception of a having a brain so stable, and quite resistant to individual desire or belief system types when no other area is?

A quantum physicist told me something that can illustrate this physically: The higher the frequencies a physical object exists in, the harder it is for it to exist in one location, in other words, physicality is dense, therefore the wavelenghth is longer, so it's more locatable.  The higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelenghth, the harder it is to locate it at a given moment (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, for those of you who already know all this).  To put it very simply,  take a big ball, and throw it across the floor.  The bigger and slower it goes, the easier it is for you to know where it is at all times.  You can even say you know that it exists where and when you see it.  Now, the smaller and faster the ball gets, the harder it is for you to locate at any given time.  You will know where it is, but you might not know where it's going- and if it's small and fast enough, you might even think there are times when it doesn't really exist here and now.  Whether it does or not I'll leave to the experts.  How does it relate to AP, LD, RV?  Well, if AP is theoretically an energetic projection of you, then it's mass must be real small, and it's frequencies have to be real high.  High enough to have very little or no resting mass, like light- then whatever it's made of would be highly  unstable, not in the manner of Nitro, but in the matter of quantum particles.  The same can be said of dreaming, and psi- what is expressed are energy interactions in the nonlocal realm-once again physically unstable, but at the same time existing in the physical world long enough to be experienced by our very dense brains.  Something that to me is very important that this physicist taught me is that what matters is the resting mass of any given particle- since photons have zero resting mass, they can go at their speed and have still no mass.  If a particle has any given resting mass and you accelerate it's frequency, it will get denser until it's mass approaches infinity.  So our existence in the physical is stable here, because we have bodies.  Maybe when we die and "drop our bodies" we discover another stability in the nonlocal realm.
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2005, 07:13:44 »

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I'm also curious about the fact that the one state in which we do have a Brain (physical reality) is the only stable state we experience. Everything else (dreams, lucid dreams, day dreams, rtz projection, AP planes etc) is highly inconsistent and can change and fluctuate based upon desires. Is this coincidence? Why is the one area of mind which creates a 'brain'/perception of a having a brain so stable, and quite resistant to individual desire or belief system types when no other area is?

A quantum physicist told me something that can illustrate this physically: The higher the frequencies a physical object exists in, the harder it is for it to exist in one location, in other words, physicality is dense, therefore the wavelenghth is longer, so it's more locatable.  The higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelenghth, the harder it is to locate it at a given moment (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, for those of you who already know all this).  To put it very simply,  take a big ball, and throw it across the floor.  The bigger and slower it goes, the easier it is for you to know where it is at all times.  You can even say you know that it exists where and when you see it.  Now, the smaller and faster the ball gets, the harder it is for you to locate at any given time.  You will know where it is, but you might not know where it's going- and if it's small and fast enough, you might even think there are times when it doesn't really exist here and now.  Whether it does or not I'll leave to the experts.  How does it relate to AP, LD, RV?  Well, if AP is theoretically an energetic projection of you, then it's mass must be real small, and it's frequencies have to be real high.  High enough to have very little or no resting mass, like light- then whatever it's made of would be highly  unstable, not in the manner of Nitro, but in the matter of quantum particles.  The same can be said of dreaming, and psi- what is expressed are energy interactions in the nonlocal realm-once again physically unstable, but at the same time existing in the physical world long enough to be experienced by our very dense brains.  Something that to me is very important that this physicist taught me is that what matters is the resting mass of any given particle- since photons have zero resting mass, they can go at their speed and have still no mass.  If a particle has any given resting mass and you accelerate it's frequency, it will get denser until it's mass approaches infinity.  So our existence in the physical is stable here, because we have bodies.  Maybe when we die and "drop our bodies" we discover another stability in the nonlocal realm.


This argument might fall down on the fact our universe and all matter is built from such particles. Any single particle has uncertainty i.e. we can learn its direction, but not it's speed with any certainty (this is partly due to size, as a sub-plank size particle is so small, to detect it, we'd need to use a sufficiently small particle to fire off it, which in turn changes the state of the original particle) or any of itís other attributes, but such uncertainty starts to become predictable over a large enough sample of such particles. Look at the universe we observe now, itís a quantum foam on the sub-plank length, yet due to the sheer number of such particles, the macro-universe is pretty predictable (in a Newtonian sense). If we look at string theory, it tells us all particles vibrate at different frequencies, this vibration is what gives them their attributes (mass, spin etc).

Iíve started to avoid talking about frequencies in regards to spiritual practices (such as astral realms having a higher frequency/vibration than the physical) as its more a concept then a reality. Energy can be detected, and so can a frequency, so these energies and frequencies must be of a form of energy we have not yet detected or they are psychological concepts.

Iíll attempt to state where I am coming from: In mankindís entire history, spiritual concepts (many of which are still in circulation) have created no great change (although perhaps from a war point of view they have changed political maps). Itís only since the advent of science that things have moved forward (including spiritual concepts and the increasing freedom to practice such things openly).
 Most occult concepts that people hold on to have their source literally thousands of years in the past. Occult philosophy at heart seems to be a form of self psychological work based upon symbolism (be it the chakra system, alchemy, ritual magick etc), and occult philosophy from thousands of years ago is built upon the psychology of people from that time, and from understanding of the world in that time e.g. It has little relevance to our current understand of the brain, mind or even world/reality.
 I wonder if the huge failure rate and seemingly large rate of psychological damage (or neg attack) we now witness in occult arts is due to trying to fit a modern mindset into antiquated views of reality. How much more progress would we see if we tried to unite what we know of science, and what we know of our spiritual self e.g. bring it up to date for our current mindset and psychological understanding?
 Some attempts at this, such as the Monroe institute, show tremendous success.
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Ben K
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2005, 08:02:19 »

Quote from: MisterJingo
Quote from: Ben K
the dmt experience is nothing like a lucid dream/astral projection experience.

its a THEORY that dmt is naturally produced in the brain.


The DMT experience is remarkably similar to the AP experience. Read the clinical trials of Rich Strassman to see experiences which mirror those of AP experiences (and even alien abduction episodes), even to the extent of low dose DMT experiences producing the 'vibrations'.
 I have friends who have both AP'ed naturally and taken Ayahuasca on numerous occasions (some having smoked DMT) and they freely state the remarkable similarities between the experiences.

Of course there are going to be similarities, hehe. I can tell you the first time i took mushrooms i thought i was having a lucid dream(which is what i still believe the psychedelic trip to be, a form of dream) But I can tell you from everything ive read that it sounds like a dmt trip is nothing like a lucid dream or OBE experience, in general terms. You just have no control when your on dmt, and theres always those four guys that appear to everyone. sure it could be said that both experiences take place in the same area of consciousness but it can also be said that to someone not used to physical life a walk in the park and a visit to the zoo are the same general experiences. us in the know so to speak, are aware that these are two seperate actions both taking place in the physical universe.

Quote
Regarding DMT being endogenous as just a theory, there is science backing it. One paper with details can be found here:

http://tripzine.com/pit/DMT_TA_anxiolytic.pdf

There are more scientific papers out there for those who wish to look.

I have no doubt that there is some truth to the whole thing, i just doubt that the reality of the situation is anything like we understand today. to make conclusions based on theory is just as bad in my mind as making conclusions based on faith.
Quote
A quick question regarding the Brain being generated by the mind, how did you reach that conclusion?

Its quite simple, to me. All physical matter is just a manifestation of consciousness. your brain included. this consciousness is formed by either your mind or our collective mind. or maybe your mind is fed the data.or a combination of both, who knows. but its quite clear to me that the brain is simply a machine that 1)runs your physical body(tells you when to poop, sleep, etc) and 2)translates subjective energy into objective "things"- the chair you are sitting on, the keyboard you are typing on. all manifestations of a single substance.
Quote
I've had such thoughts in the past, but it seemed a dead end avenue to me (personaly) as everything can just be dismissed as a product of the mind.

Exactly! Realize there is no such thing as "fake" or "real"- consciousness just IS! It follows attention, so whatever you focus on becomes reality.
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In regards to the brain/mind generating our perception of reality based upon sensory data, then the brain is generated by the brain/mind Ė but this is our perception of it not the reality.

Lets make it quite clear that the brain and mind are two seperate things. your mind is the sum of all your perception at a given moment, memories, beliefs, etc. all form to create this objective picture. we live physical lives to give ourselves a time-frame, sort of like a "choose your own adventure" novel. I agree that our perception does not equal reality but for all intents and purposes it IS our reality. in other words, we dont care about the truth of reality while we are alive and participating in the "game". we just create these elaborate pictures to experience different concepts and ideas in different ways. at least imo Cheesy
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Psychedelic trips can be aborted by the use of certain chemicals which are known to act on the same receptors of the brain as the taken psychedelic. Are these receptors and chemicals just beliefs? Also how does tolerance and cross tolerance come into effect when taking psychedelics?

Yes these are all beliefs that we bring into our lives. by simply taking a psychedelic drug you are inviting the concept of "tolerance" and "receptors" into your reality.
Quote
I'm also curious about the fact that the one state in which we do have a Brain (physical reality) is the only stable state we experience. Everything else (dreams, lucid dreams, day dreams, rtz projection, AP planes etc) is highly inconsistent and can change and fluctuate based upon desires. Is this coincidence? When we dream there are no barriers between thought and action. Why is the one area of mind which creates a 'brain'/perception of a having a brain so stable, and quite resistant to individual desire or belief system types when no other area is?

When we dream there is no barrier between mind and environment. by putting ourselves into a physical universe we create a barrier between thought and action. mind/environment, whatever you want to call it. for instance you can imagine a tree in your mind right now, and morph it into a cat. in the physical universe you need to perform an objective action to create whats in your mind, or to bring it into "reality". this is where we got "wood carving" Smiley

does that make sense? basically by putting ourselves in a physical state we are adding an extra "step" in the whole "idea->reality" equation. not only can we IMAGINE an objective "thing", but we can create it physically with our egos and it will be there until other physical circumstances come around, most likely "time" or "decay" or "destroy." The physical universe is based on the idea of you bringing concepts into existance with your mind.
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2005, 18:14:31 »

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Iíll attempt to state where I am coming from: In mankindís entire history, spiritual concepts (many of which are still in circulation) have created no great change (although perhaps from a war point of view they have changed political maps). Itís only since the advent of science that things have moved forward (including spiritual concepts and the increasing freedom to practice such things openly).


This point is arguable. Have things really moved forward? That depends on your point of view. Some might say things have gone horribly wrong, the scientific revolution is like a blind elephant charging through the Hanging Gardens. When you speak of the advent of science, I think you mean the "Enlightenment", which is ignorant of the fact that technological advancements were happening regardless of the fashionable meme of the time.

How do you know the occult and spiritual practices 1,000 years ago were impotent? Unless you were there, all you have is modern academia's word that it was backward and yielded nothing.
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2005, 19:20:39 »

Freeing yourself from all your seemingly limiting belief systems = defy the laws of physics! Im not sure that that is all that is required.
Like I said, this place is stable for good reasons. It would be like finding the cheat codes for the physical game of life. It cannot be allowed!  cheesy

I have yet to see reliable evidence of anybody defying gravity with a thought alone. (even mystical Indian hermits, especially mystical Indian hermits   smiley  )

Maybe the reason for the lack of evidence is that when they become truly enlightened, when they finally discover the cheat codes, they leave this constrained physical state behind for good. It will be boring. wink

Or they might think revealing the awesome truth would be too disruptive to your average mortal who care only for what the capabilities of his next cell phone will be.
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2005, 19:53:34 »

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isn't it entirely possible that all an OBE is is just a rapid release of naturally produced DMT in the brain?


Yes, and that can also be tested for (if it hasn't been already). DMT is obviously smoked while awake, a release upon falling asleep (which would then remove the distraction of the physical) would probably be a much more powerful experience.

I think its an interesting theory and more work should be done on looking into chemical releases in the brain during projections... and of course ruling chemical activity out if necessary.

All this hypothesizing is nice, but now you have to come up with methods of testing your theories, blind faith isnt healthy in the search for truth.

Ben,
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Its quite simple, to me. All physical matter is just a manifestation of consciousness. your brain included. this consciousness is formed by either your mind or our collective mind. or maybe your mind is fed the data.or a combination of both, who knows. but its quite clear to me that the brain is simply a machine that 1)runs your physical body(tells you when to poop, sleep, etc) and 2)translates subjective energy into objective "things"- the chair you are sitting on, the keyboard you are typing on. all manifestations of a single substance.


That doesnt really answer the question of how you reached that conclusion. Im also interested in the answer  smiley. Also, do you not think you would benefit from a more open minded belief system? You seem positive of the conclusion you've reached and yet it seems to be based on nothing more then gut instinct. Its all good and well believing in something strongly but it can also limit your ability to learn. I find the stronger you believe in something the more likely you are to dismiss more obvious truths in search of an answer closer to your origional thoughts. Im not trying to be picky, just its healthier to approach many theories as theories, and not facts.

>RooJ
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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2005, 21:10:25 »

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Iíll attempt to state where I am coming from: In mankindís entire history, spiritual concepts (many of which are still in circulation) have created no great change (although perhaps from a war point of view they have changed political maps). Itís only since the advent of science that things have moved forward (including spiritual concepts and the increasing freedom to practice such things openly).


It canít be disputed that the rate of technological advancement has accelerated at a staggering rate since it was uncoupled from spiritual/religious control.
I definitely wouldnít say things have gone wrong. Even basic things like life expectancy, average literacy, average intelligence, general standard of living, health care even for the poorest (in economically developed countries) have improved as a result of recent scientific developments. Iím not saying Ďeverythingí is ok, there is still gross poverty, crime, violence (things which have been endemic throughout mankindís recorded history) etc but rather than having total poverty but for a few educated elite, things are becoming more balanced. Even 100 years ago the working class wouldnít have been able to read or write, now theyíre going to university and persuing careers once reserved for the privileged few. Iím not saying these things make the world a better place, but they have the potential to make the world a better place and that is better then no potential at all.
  I will say (IMO) science is the thing that will bring a lasting enlightenment to our civilisation (if we survive to a stage where it can).
My original point was after 5000 years+ of spiritual and religious dominance nothing has changed. No great enlightenment came (perhaps the opposite ala the dark ages). How long do we repeat a method with no success before looking for new avenues of exploration?
 I am not saying we give up on the spiritual side of life, I think that side is integral to every living being, but I think we should perhaps start dropping the dogma which has gotten us no where, dropping the beliefs we have been taught yet do not bring what they suggest.

Quote

How do you know the occult and spiritual practices 1,000 years ago were impotent? Unless you were there, all you have is modern academia's word that it was backward and yielded nothing.


Most occult practices still contain the teachings of 1000-2000 years ago, and they have little if any success. As tools for self realisation they have mixed effectiveness (some believing they attain enlightenment and others being torn apart by mental illnesses/negs) but after thousands of years we are still arguing over the possibility of paranormal phenomena let alone seeing even a single example of these practices bring any enlightenment to the masses as a whole.
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2005, 21:15:33 »

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I'm also curious about the fact that the one state in which we do have a Brain (physical reality) is the only stable state we experience. Everything else (dreams, lucid dreams, day dreams, rtz projection, AP planes etc) is highly inconsistent and can change and fluctuate based upon desires. Is this coincidence? Why is the one area of mind which creates a 'brain'/perception of a having a brain so stable, and quite resistant to individual desire or belief system types when no other area is?

A quantum physicist told me something that can illustrate this physically: The higher the frequencies a physical object exists in, the harder it is for it to exist in one location, in other words, physicality is dense, therefore the wavelenghth is longer, so it's more locatable.  The higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelenghth, the harder it is to locate it at a given moment (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, for those of you who already know all this).  To put it very simply,  take a big ball, and throw it across the floor.  The bigger and slower it goes, the easier it is for you to know where it is at all times.  You can even say you know that it exists where and when you see it.  Now, the smaller and faster the ball gets, the harder it is for you to locate at any given time.  You will know where it is, but you might not know where it's going- and if it's small and fast enough, you might even think there are times when it doesn't really exist here and now.  Whether it does or not I'll leave to the experts.  How does it relate to AP, LD, RV?  Well, if AP is theoretically an energetic projection of you, then it's mass must be real small, and it's frequencies have to be real high.  High enough to have very little or no resting mass, like light- then whatever it's made of would be highly  unstable, not in the manner of Nitro, but in the matter of quantum particles.  The same can be said of dreaming, and psi- what is expressed are energy interactions in the nonlocal realm-once again physically unstable, but at the same time existing in the physical world long enough to be experienced by our very dense brains.  Something that to me is very important that this physicist taught me is that what matters is the resting mass of any given particle- since photons have zero resting mass, they can go at their speed and have still no mass.  If a particle has any given resting mass and you accelerate it's frequency, it will get denser until it's mass approaches infinity.  So our existence in the physical is stable here, because we have bodies.  Maybe when we die and "drop our bodies" we discover another stability in the nonlocal realm.


This argument might fall down on the fact our universe and all matter is built from such particles. Any single particle has uncertainty i.e. we can learn its direction, but not it's speed with any certainty (this is partly due to size, as a sub-plank size particle is so small, to detect it, we'd need to use a sufficiently small particle to fire off it, which in turn changes the state of the original particle) or any of itís other attributes, but such uncertainty starts to become predictable over a large enough sample of such particles. Look at the universe we observe now, itís a quantum foam on the sub-plank length, yet due to the sheer number of such particles, the macro-universe is pretty predictable (in a Newtonian sense). If we look at string theory, it tells us all particles vibrate at different frequencies, this vibration is what gives them their attributes (mass, spin etc).

Iíve started to avoid talking about frequencies in regards to spiritual practices (such as astral realms having a higher frequency/vibration than the physical) as its more a concept then a reality. Energy can be detected, and so can a frequency, so these energies and frequencies must be of a form of energy we have not yet detected or they are psychological concepts.

Iíll attempt to state where I am coming from: In mankindís entire history, spiritual concepts (many of which are still in circulation) have created no great change (although perhaps from a war point of view they have changed political maps). Itís only since the advent of science that things have moved forward (including spiritual concepts and the increasing freedom to practice such things openly).
 Most occult concepts that people hold on to have their source literally thousands of years in the past. Occult philosophy at heart seems to be a form of self psychological work based upon symbolism (be it the chakra system, alchemy, ritual magick etc), and occult philosophy from thousands of years ago is built upon the psychology of people from that time, and from understanding of the world in that time e.g. It has little relevance to our current understand of the brain, mind or even world/reality.
 I wonder if the huge failure rate and seemingly large rate of psychological damage (or neg attack) we now witness in occult arts is due to trying to fit a modern mindset into antiquated views of reality. How much more progress would we see if we tried to unite what we know of science, and what we know of our spiritual self e.g. bring it up to date for our current mindset and psychological understanding?
 Some attempts at this, such as the Monroe institute, show tremendous success.

I agree wholeheartedly.  I just hope that the political climate doesn't curtail the progress of science to the point of going back to repressing it, like it lately seems to want to do.
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2005, 00:27:38 »

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Its quite simple, to me. All physical matter is just a manifestation of consciousness. your brain included. this consciousness is formed by either your mind or our collective mind. or maybe your mind is fed the data.or a combination of both, who knows. but its quite clear to me that the brain is simply a machine that 1)runs your physical body(tells you when to poop, sleep, etc) and 2)translates subjective energy into objective "things"- the chair you are sitting on, the keyboard you are typing on. all manifestations of a single substance.


That doesnt really answer the question of how you reached that conclusion. Im also interested in the answer  smiley. Also, do you not think you would benefit from a more open minded belief system? You seem positive of the conclusion you've reached and yet it seems to be based on nothing more then gut instinct. Its all good and well believing in something strongly but it can also limit your ability to learn. I find the stronger you believe in something the more likely you are to dismiss more obvious truths in search of an answer closer to your origional thoughts. Im not trying to be picky, just its healthier to approach many theories as theories, and not facts.

>RooJ

I thought I did answer the question...

You either believe that all physical matter is a product of our minds or that our minds are a product of our physical body. I believe the former.

I would be close-minded if i was presented evidence that proves other-wise, but so far i have only been presented with evidence supporting the belief that all matter is basically a big hologram and what we see right now is only one side of the true "reality", whatever that may be. quantam physics rocks. If evidence comes my way that contradicts this belief, i will question the belief and perhaps change it. But for now il stick with my belief. it makes me happy.
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2005, 06:56:02 »

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but after thousands of years we are still arguing over the possibility of paranormal phenomena let alone seeing even a single example of these practices bring any enlightenment to the masses as a whole.


How do you know it isn't, now after thousands of years people have started arguing over the possibility of paranormal phenomena and haven't even seen a single example of these practices? I've heard a lot of amazing stories about paranormal things happening where the modern world hasn't yet taken hold.

The kind of enlightenment you're talking about isn't something the masses are ready for, or even willing to believe.

Also, science didn't just happen. It evolved from those ancient practices.

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It canít be disputed that the rate of technological advancement has accelerated at a staggering rate since it was uncoupled from spiritual/religious control.


It can be disputed why it accelerated. I'd say that it was a natural curve - for instance, you invent the computer and now you've accelerated, same with earlier advancements. Civilization advanced then, as it had always been, and later someone called that period of time the "scientific revolution" because it sounded good in a textbook.

I don't know how far from "religious control" the modern heads of science are, how unbiased those who fund science are, or how coupled science is with government. I'd say it's just as negatively influenced now as it ever was.
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2005, 12:04:17 »

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How do you know it isn't, now after thousands of years people have started arguing over the possibility of paranormal phenomena and haven't even seen a single example of these practices? I've heard a lot of amazing stories about paranormal things happening where the modern world hasn't yet taken hold.


Exactly, there are lots of amazing stories. Yet, in an age where information can
circle the globe multiple times in seconds, an age where most households have some form of video/photographic device, the skies are covered and watched by radars, telescopes, satellites, both of state and amateur origin. There has not been a single blip of anything which is undeniable. The best evidence we have is either irreproducible in any form of scientific lab, the words of an íexperienceeí, or fuzzy photographs which are so ambiguous as to be near meaningless.
Yes there are a lot of people seeing strange things, as there has been down the ages. Due to the information network we have available to us we hear about people seeing strange things, but we never see evidence of these things.


Quote

The kind of enlightenment you're talking about isn't something the masses are ready for, or even willing to believe.


Why arenít they ready for it? Enlightenment by definition is a desired state. What is the criteria we use to select who will become enlightened and who will not?

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Also, science didn't just happen. It evolved from those ancient practices.


Agreed. Mostly geometry and mathematics. The point I was making was that (in the west at least) religion has been so at odds with science it has persecuted and killed those who wish to see past the dogma of such teachings and find some real truth.
If science hadnít been decoupled from religion weíd still be living on a flat Earth which was just a few thousand years old.
 The modern age as we know it was mainly a Western driven event.

Quote

It can be disputed why it accelerated. I'd say that it was a natural curve - for instance, you invent the computer and now you've accelerated, same with earlier advancements. Civilization advanced then, as it had always been, and later someone called that period of time the "scientific revolution" because it sounded good in a textbook.


If this is the case, then itís acceleration would fit a curve of amazing exponential growth in the last 2 centuries, while lying near horizontal and dormant since the birth of man.

Quote

I don't know how far from "religious control" the modern heads of science are, how unbiased those who fund science are, or how coupled science is with government. I'd say it's just as negatively influenced now as it ever was.


Iíd say science is more controlled by economic factors rather than those of religion. If this wasnít the case, the whole ID farce in the US wouldnít have taken place recently.
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2005, 12:05:32 »

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I agree wholeheartedly.  I just hope that the political climate doesn't curtail the progress of science to the point of going back to repressing it, like it lately seems to want to do.


Agreed. There has been some scary developments recently regarding religion trying to impose belief as scientific fact.
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Stookie
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2005, 17:18:06 »

We live in a super-materialistic world (Ahrimanic) that's reflected in both religion and science. People need physical proof for both, or at least physical explanations. And it's easier for each generation to accept this just by being born into it. And then when you throw politics into the mix, we end up living in some surreal world that people take as reality, when it's really just a bunch of crazy concepts that everyone agrees is real (Simulacra and Simulation). And it's even easier to believe in it when everyone around you supports it. Think about how different the world would be if everyone knew they would continue to exist after death. Would getting that new SUV or HDTV or making $150,000 a year be at the top of the to-do list?

In my opinion, everything that dies isn't real. Your body and brain will one day cease to exist. As will your car, house, and anything else with a physical existance. It's thinking, willing, & feeling that are real and continue to exist and evolve. But these things can't be "physically" found. The physical world is just a temporary place where these things can come into fruition.

(Just 2 cents out of a pocket-full of change)
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Ben K
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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2005, 17:24:13 »

Quote from: Stookie
We live in a super-materialistic world (Ahrimanic) that's reflected in both religion and science. People need physical proof for both, or at least physical explanations. And it's easier for each generation to accept this just by being born into it. And then when you throw politics into the mix, we end up living in some surreal world that people take as reality, when it's really just a bunch of crazy concepts that everyone agrees is real (Simulacra and Simulation). And it's even easier to believe in it when everyone around you supports it. Think about how different the world would be if everyone knew they would continue to exist after death. Would getting that new SUV or HDTV or making $150,000 a year be at the top of the to-do list?

In my opinion, everything that dies isn't real. Your body and brain will one day cease to exist. As will your car, house, and anything else with a physical existance. It's thinking, willing, & feeling that are real and continue to exist and evolve. But these things can't be "physically" found. The physical world is just a temporary place where these things can come into fruition.

(Just 2 cents out of a pocket-full of change)

Amazing!  grin
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