? about belief system territories Frank?

[PeacefulWarrior]

Very interesting questions, and I can't say I know all the answers, but I do feel strongly about some of this.  First of all, I have a firm belief that some "belief systems" are indeed correct.  In other words, what you think determines your reality.  Therefore one could not just "enter" another dimension or belief system territory because you, in order to be there or see it, would have to be in that state of mind/spirit.

From my personal expereince, I have found there are many places where you can freely roam but some areas are restricted to those beings who have attained a certain degree of truth or righteousness or whatever you want to call it.  The only thing stopping you from reaching those areas, however, is yourself...so in that sense there is nothing "off limits" except for what you determine yourself.

Good question and I am interested to see what Frank, and others, have to say.

[DOA]

PeacefullWarrior wasnt that a name of a book?  Are you the autor of that book?  Wasnt it Dan Millman?  
Well if any shmo can go to any belief system what is earth?  Wouldnt you conscider earth a belief system territory albiet one in one of the lowest dimensions?  Could that explain some of the plotergiest situations?  just thinking.  
It would probaby take someone more advanced spiritually to be able to manifest physically.  



DOA

[PeacefulWarrior]

I didn't write the book...though I wish I had! [^]

Anyway, I didn't mean to say any schmoe could waltz in and out of dimensions or different levels/territories, (whatever we want to call them).  In fact it's kind of a paradox.  We determine what we see and where we go, nothing can stop us...but things do.  I know that doesn't make sense, but I guess what I am trying to say is that there really are different heavens and hells, of course these are just terms to describe the states that we create for ourselves.  So although I believe in different, subjective levels, I also believe in an objective reality and I do believe in the Eternal Now where God resides and if we want to get there (and I do) then we must preapre oursleves.

Regarding Earth....Earth is a low place and a place of learning or as Robert Bruce says "Hard life experience."  Only certain spirits chose to be incarnate here and for a very good reason.  I believe we are trying, among other things, to learn to control matter...and of course to gain knowledge and learn to love, etc.  Not just any spirit can come here and be seen, or wander into our lives, and when they do it's usually because we want them to our have invited them, either consciously or sub-consciously (although it's always conscious on some level).  Whoa...it's late and I am rambling.

What do you think?

[Frank]

DOA: As for your first question...

quote:
I know that its possible for incarnate spirts to visit the belief system territories but if you go to a very religious one what do they precieve you as? I mean can you just blink in and they dont realize it or do they think you are evil or what?

Where you say "incarnate spirits" I'm assuming you mean people, such as myself, who are Astral-projecting. If so, in my experience, the responses I have received are many and varied. Once you can control your projection experience to a high degree, it is possible to assume basically any form within the belief-system regions.

This ability comes in handy for those who specialise in the retrieval side of things. Or if you are more like me then you'll find it ever so difficult to resist the temptation to play a practical joke or two. There are all kinds of, well, complete nutcases living in these regions. I came across a man once who really believed he was Jesus. He had a queue of people waiting for him to perform miracles together with his own church and stuff. The impulse to assume some form of "devil" was too much to resist.

All kinds of war games are being enacted too. You can assume whatever side you wish and will, therefore, be treated accordingly. I always loved seeing the look of sheer surprise on people's faces when I'd approach them and they'd try and kill me by stabbing with a sword or shooting a gun and I'd just laugh. Though the ability to remain emotionally closed to such a high degree came in quite handy later when I went through a phase of doing retrievals.

quote:
My next question is what if you are discarnate spirit. Can you roam the differant belief systme territories at will or are you restricted. I mean like if I were to shed my physcial shell and my wife did same and we went to differant places. I am more open and believe in differant things and she is very religious and goes to another place would I be able to visit her? She might be trapped in a certain dogma while I am free to explore?

Within non-physical realms you are automatically subject to the natural laws pertaining to the region you wish to inhabit. Throughout the ages mystics, et al, have maintained that in order to progress you have to be some kind of spiritually pure person; give all your money to the poor; pray x-number of times per day; and such like. This is not the case at all. Each individual is totally at liberty to make progress. The only restriction being the abilities of each individual to operate on the plane, region, density (call it what you will) in question.

In many ways this progression is akin to the progression from being a child to an adult. For example, to drive a motor-car the child has to wait until he or she achieves a certain level of mental maturity before they can comprehend how to manipulate all the various levers whilst on the move. Likewise, operating within the various non-physical planes takes a certain degree of mental maturity and understanding. But no-one is in any way prevented from achieving this understanding. There are places where all the necessary knowledge and mental skill is freely taught and no-one is barred from attending.

Generally, the natural progression is for a person to be working towards learning how to live on the "level" above them. In our case, we are currently living in 3rd density learning how to live within 4th density (C1 and Focus 27 respectively in Monroe-speak).

A person who is living competently within 4th density can visit any region below them. This is because they must have obviously learnt all the various ground-rules which apply as they originally would have gravitated from these lower regions.

When I say “living competently” I mean there are residents there who are living with assistance from others whose job it is to help people learn-the-ropes, so to speak. There are mini-communities which have been set-up where people can live amongst other newcomers so they won’t feel too much out of place. These communities tend to have a significant percentage of people who gravitated from belief-system regions. Either they winked-out by themselves or were retrieved by someone: perhaps a relative or other loved-one currently living in 4th density, often in conjunction with “helpers” Astral-projecting.

At the other end of the scale, there are those who have been settled-in for quite a while and who are very comfortable with their freedom-rich lifestyle.

Yours,
Frank

[DOA]

Maybe I didnt quite understand what you meant.  If I astral project I am capable of going to any belief system territory assuming I have the skill to do so.  What about when I pass away.  I consider myself aware that the belief system territories do exist so I make my home in one of them but will I be able to visit them.  For example lets say one of my relatives is much more religious than I am.  Lets say we both pass away and I go to place A and he goes to place B.  Will I be able to go visit him/her?    

I would love to hear your stories regarding the belief system territories.  


DOA

[Frank]

quote:
If I astral project I am capable of going to any belief system territory assuming I have the skill to do so.

This is correct.

It's a bit of a tricky mental balancing-act because you need to be a part of the action to a certain degree in order to interact with the people there; but not so much a part that you begin to get swept along by whatever circumstances/events/actions/ etc. are taking place.

quote:
What about when I pass away. I consider myself aware that the belief system territories do exist so I make my home in one of them but will I be able to visit them. For example lets say one of my relatives is much more religious than I am. Lets say we both pass away and I go to place A and he goes to place B. Will I be able to go visit him/her?

I understand what you are getting at here but there are a couple of aspects of the process you might not be taking into account.

Firstly, while I fully respect the fact that it is your life and you are free to choose accordingly, you don't want to be looking to make your home in a belief-system region of the Astral (Focus levels 24, 25 & 26 in Monroe-speak). Thing is, you don’t want to be within the Astral: full stop. Take it from me, it really isn’t the place to be.

The people who inhabit these places are nicknamed Flatlanders due to their failure to think multi-dimensionally. Their mix of beliefs and emotions causes their attention to become focussed or engrossed in a very local way. Imagine, say, a primitive island community in the middle of a huge ocean. Say also they've never seen a boat or a plane, or any other evidence humans exist apart from themselves. Chances are high they would believe they were the only humans alive. Yet beyond the horizon is a huge land-mass teeming with people living freedom-rich, high-technology lifestyles.

This is basically the same difference between the belief-system regions and the exchange territories. You see, it's not so much a case of you choosing to make your home in the belief-system regions. It's more a case of that "home" choosing you! So to have the degree of freedom you need in order to visit other people and/or places, you need to aim for the exchange territories.

To do this you don’t have to drop your religious beliefs. There are zillions of people within the exchange territories with religious beliefs. You can even build your own church if you want. Or whatever else takes your fancy. In other words, being religious, per se, does not necessarily mean you end up in a belief-system region; as it’s not so much being religious; it’s being religious… and… sorely missing the point.

Secondly, every person who is incarnate, in a sense, leads two distinct lives.

During the hours people are awake on the Physical, each person's mind is operating through their respective physical body. As such, their primary focus of awareness tends to be concentrated on the physical environment to a high degree: the day-to-day accumulation of which forms our “physical life”.

When a person is physically sleeping, however, the mind operates through a different body; a body which is of a non-physical nature. While we sleep, each person engages in activities within various non-physical environments: the nightly accumulation of which forms our “sleep life”.

As an aside, I suspect this non-physical sleep-life aspect of a person is what Monroe called his: I-There. But I’m not entirely sure on that.

The type of activities a person becomes engaged-in highly depends on their level of non-physical development. Problem is, due to the Mind Split effect (Note: RB goes into this at length in Astral Dynamics.) it is easily possible for a person to have an active sleep-life and yet be largely unaware of it.

It is an unfortunate fact that a large number of people, currently incarnate on this planet, have yet to develop the degree of realisation necessary in order for them to become aware of; familiarise themselves with; and subsequently cultivate this non-physical sleep-life aspect of their self. But, then again, I suppose that's one of the primary reasons why most of us are here.

There is, however, a certain degree of bleed-through which people generally call dreams. Dreams have been subject to all manner of interpretations and subsequent misunderstandings in the past; and will no-doubt continue to be misinterpreted and/or misunderstood by the population at large, for a good while yet.

When a person's physical body reaches the stage where it can no-longer function, the mind ceases to operate through the physical body and permanently withdraws from it. While there are a number of factors which can upset the transition, left to its own devices the mind simply continues to occupy the non-physical body it normally occupied; and continues to engage in activities it would normally engage in; while the (now defunct) physical body was asleep.

A person, therefore, who previously became familiar with their non-physical sleep-life, will suffer far less stress and confusion following physical-body death; because, in a way, the Astral-projection transition is a *lot* like the physical-body death transition. This is why almost always when someone projects spontaneously they immediately think they have died; as it drags up memories of having experienced the death transition in previous lives.

So, basically, a person who enters a belief-system region will do so because, chances are, that is the place where they spent their non-physical sleep-life for a time period prior to physical-body death. As I say, people generally just carry on doing what they normally did. (Note: This is also the basic reason why someone can die in a Physical sense and not realise it.)

Yours,
Frank

[Nick]

Everyone,

I just want to say that reading Frank's posts are always worthwhile and educational. The posts deliver a perfect nutshell explanation of the topic, clear and to the point.

Very best,

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

I would like to add a few comments to this interesting topic []

I believe that the reason we can visit any Astral realm, subject to the highest level attainable due to the vibrational level of the Astral body, is that it provided an opportunity before physical death to view what awaits after physical death, and affords a real opportunity to amend your life accordingly - before it is too late. At the point of physical death, a person will automatically migrate to the Astral sphere most analogous to his or her life at the point of physical death and before. This does not in any way overcome immutable Universal laws including Karma.

With regards to the level of the Astral and later Mental realms (or planes) attainable after physical death - that depends on the degree of "perfection" or "enoblement" of the Astral and Mental bodies and elemental equilibrium - this is a very real and permanent attainment of state of being - not simply being a charitable of friendly person, although they are good attributes of course, or in the case of a religious person - going to church once per week and reading the bible. This requires conscious and ongoing work. Enoblement includes the destruction of the "ego" (the aspect of personality that views itself as existing in the material world and proceeding accordingly)-and equilibration of all negative/bad/evil attributes, and generally identification with, and attributes of the "All". The higher the degree of enoblement is achieved, the higher the Astral and Mental bodies vibrate, and accordingly the higher levels of the Astral and Mental realms. i.e. vibrational level of the Akasha the bodies will exist in with comparitive vibration. More highly evolved people or beings can "visit" lower planes right down to the physical, but lower beings cannot visit higher beings because they cannot tolerate and therefore exist at the higher level of vibration. The ultimate destiny for all mankind is to achieve the degree of perfection necessary in order to achieve unity with the ultimate perfection - the "All" or "God" etc.. Most decent, average, people, will find themselves in the mid-Astral realms after physical death, analogous to Monroe level F 27 which is where most Astral projectors can reach for exacly the same reasons. The density of the Astra-Mental bodies during physical life is the same as it will be at the point of physical death, and that is one reason why Astral projection and exploration is so valuable, and indeed should be open to everyone - it provides valuable knowledge and insight as well as opportunites - if taken. It is the seeemingly relentless fall into materialism that has deprived the majority of mankind from attaining knowledge of, an learning from the higher spheres - our true "home".

With best regards,

Adrian.

[DOA]

Frank can you explain the exchange territories for me?  I think I understand the belief systems territories.  The belief systems are not bad they are just locked into a certain way of thinking they dont see the big picture.  Is that correct.  The exchange territories is what where someone see the big picture?  



DOA

[Nick]

Adrian-

Your post got my gears whirring along spiritual development lines. So rather than expand on the topic here, I started a new one in the spiritual development forum with your post in quotes. I believe your comments are very important as a separate topic and deserve discussion.

Very best,

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by DOA

The belief systems are not bad they are just locked into a certain way of thinking they dont see the big picture.  Is that correct.

Yes, correct.

People who became dogmatic about their religious beliefs while incarnate here, for example, often get caught. But people who developed their faith later in life, perhaps as a kind of comfort thing to offset fears about death, say, tend to pass through without a hitch. I've spoken to quite a number of these people many of whom said they were rather pleasantly surprised that there was truly such a thing as, "life after death" (as people generally describe it).

Myself, I always found it an interesting paradox where the most fervently religious, the people most committed to their faith, generally make the slowest progression. Whereas a person who is more open-minded, more emotionally neutral, tends to make smooth headway.
 
Many people who get caught, for example, think they have died and gone to heaven. To them their experience is exquisite. No having to go to work every day; angels at your beck and call; 24-hour ambrosia delivery; and all that jazz. Problem is their growth is now stunted. I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if they were at some proper level. But they are caught in a kind of Astral no man's land between 3rd and 4th density.

quote:
The exchange territories is what where someone see the big picture?  

Yes, people there are "dead and proud of it" as I call them. All the people I spoke to thus far realise exactly where they are, and know they have been incarnate here. Plus, no-one seems to be in any hurry to leave. Quite the opposite. Everywhere I go there's building work going on.

The people living there are free to travel to places, meet friends, etc. They can basically do all the things we can do only much, much more. The place looks so like our Physical environment in many ways. Which I suppose is hardly surprising as it seems the people there used to live here. In fact, so Physical-like is it I often have to remind myself I'm projecting!

Yours,
Frank

[Gandalf]

are the 'exchange territories' the same as F27? or above it?

Regards,
Douglas

[Adrian]

Greetings Gandalf,

The Astral world in its entirety is the the world of "desire" and the Astral body is often referred to as the "desire body". The reason for this is that the people in this world still think very much in material life terms, and hence, as Frank mentioned, there is still alot of building work going on. The people in the Astral see it as an extension of, or the next stage of their lives in the physical world, and proceed accordingly. Although, in F27 and above, they are not restricted by dogmatic beliefs, they are still unware of their true self and true purpose, i.e. progression through the higher spheres until they can achieve unity with our creator the "All".

Once people have lived out their material desires in the Astral worlds, and realise them for the illusion they really are, their Astral bodies become more rareified until it fades altogther, after which they progress to the true Spirit worlds - the Mental planes. There are several Mental planes to progress to and through - the Astral planes (in their entirety) are still a very low level of the "Universe" the Akasha in all of its spheres, only the material world being lower. Above the Astral is the Mental, Celestial and Cosmic planes, all at increasing vibration, lower density.

Upon reaching the Mental planes, people will remain there while they review what they need to achieve to progress further, and select their next incarnation accordingly - and so on.

As for the higher levels of the Astral - they still have the characteristics of the Astral in general, but the "desires" and knowledge of those above F27 are expressed in a different way, i.e. not do "materialistic" or "gross", and this allows their Astral bodies to vibrate at a higher frequency, and they will migrate to the level of the Astral which is analogous to the vibration of their Astral body - in Monroe terms I believe that F35 is the highest, which is similar to the seventh Astral plane - I woould think that F27 is the fourth Astral plane.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Gandalf

are the 'exchange territories' the same as F27? or above it?

Regards,
Douglas

The non-physical realms are in a constant state of development. The progression and development we experience on the Physical is a reflection of that. Hence the region Monroe originally labelled Focus 27 has changed quite a bit since he first set foot there. The place is definitely expanding to the extent where you have the "old town" as it were, and the "new town" alongside it. That's about the best way I can describe it with words.

The people occupying the "new town", from talking to quite a number of them, appear to have gone through many incarnations within the Physical and have developed to the extent where they realise what is going on in the general scheme of things. They are fully aware, and suffering no kind of trauma at all. Quite the opposite in fact. All the people I have met seem very happy with their new lifestyle and, from what I can see, have no particular desire to become physically incarnate again; which I can well understand as the quality of their lifestyle *far* exceeds that of the Physical.

Obviously, because the place is so vast, it is difficult for me to know just how representitive the data I have collected thus far is to the population and/or the region as a whole. But wherever I go I get the distinct impression these people have graduated in some way, and are now enjoying the new-found benefits and freedoms of having done so.

Monroe said the earth-life system was formed with the intention of it being a huge learning process. I have a sneaking suspicion these people could well be modern-day graduates of Earth University. If so, I sure hope I'm due to graduate this time around.

Yours,
Frank

[Tisha]

Whew, what a relief.  That F27 is stable, I mean.  The fear of mental instability plagues me - - - I think it interferes with my progress. It's been awhile since I've been "out."

In the past when I got "out" everything was so shifty and bewildering.  The problem is (I think?)  I (apparently) had little desire for anything, so I didn't go anywhere, or I went a zillion places near-simultaneously (barf!), or if I asked to go somewhere it was just random.(I didn't even spend Astral no-time trying on Italian shoes . . . something I thought I might do for being so vain).

OK, so imagine I get "out" again sometime soon. Or maybe I die.  Do I jinn up an Astral elevator and hit the F27 button? Or just call up an Advisor and ask him/her/it to take me there . . . The reason I'm asking is that I've heard enough about the Lower Realms and Belief System Territories, and would just as soon skip it.  I am presuming the Guides recognize the term F27.