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Author Topic: All talk, no action  (Read 3583 times)
Mike17
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« on: July 13, 2004, 15:01:10 »

I was laying down practising OBE when i felt intence vibrations and heard a buzzing in my ear, i was very afraid and could not move my body, could sum1 pls tell me whats happening to me, am i being possesed
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manuel
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2004, 15:02:54 »

Great example there mike17! things like that.
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2004, 15:02:54 »

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kiauma
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2004, 15:15:36 »

Come on Manuel, give a little.  You are in a position to make a difference.  Give the reassurance.

No Mike, the noises and sensations are common.  You are not being posessed.   Do not be afraid, they will not harm you.
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MJ-12
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2004, 19:54:23 »

as
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Mike17
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2004, 21:03:06 »

Errm just to clarify, i didnt really think i was being possesed, i just thought it wud b funny to post that there Cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2004, 21:03:06 »



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kiauma
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2004, 21:04:28 »

You're a gass, Mike.  [Tongue]
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Mike17
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2004, 22:07:39 »

hehe Stop man, u r making me all embarrased [Cheesy]
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Phong
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2004, 05:31:08 »

lol, that was great.

Reassurance of what, kiauma? That they're doing something almost completely out of the social norm? Though it may be "normal" for the experienced members of the forum, we are surprisingly few. Our beliefs also differ on what exactly the experience is. Is it the exit of an energy body to other realms (Monroe, Bruce) or is it the induction of a more vivid dreamlike state (LaBerge, DeGracia) or is it simply our consciousness managing infinity (Castaneda)?

This forum is well founded on the beliefs and experiences of one man, Robert Bruce. We take him to be honest in his convictions, but like any other teacher he cannot give us the experience of knowledge. We need to find it ourselves. A math teacher can go through problems step-by-step on the board all day instructing how to do them. But if the student hasn't experienced the personal practice of deducing the answer on his or her own, then he or she hasn't really learned anything about doing mathematics.

Those questions, "was it an OBE?" and "what did I experience?" spark a sick feeling inside me because I know the person asking the questions is heading in the wrong direction. Really, what can someone say other than "you're not alone in your confusion about reality?" Even Bruce acknowledges he still has stuff to learn. No one finds answers to those questions in this forum, or any forum. At best they find discussion and ideas, and that's fine, but given how subjective our experiences are of this phenomena, this can be especially challenging.

I agree with you manuel, and I've tried to say the same in other threads. But in my efforts to make it potent, people think I'm just stirring up trouble. In reality I'm trying to encourage personal creativity, development, and exploration - because I know that, after searching for answers in forums and new age websites for more than two years now, I've been looking in the wrong place.
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Selski
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2004, 07:39:19 »

Manuel

I'd just like to say that was a great post.  I totally agree with you, especially about perceptions and expectations.

You'll probably some stick for saying it, but you do have supporters - me for one!

Sarah  

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clandestino
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2004, 08:52:53 »

great post Phong!



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kiauma
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2004, 11:53:11 »

I agree with you manuel, and I've tried to say the same in other threads. But in my efforts to make it potent, people think I'm just stirring up trouble. In reality I'm trying to encourage personal creativity, development, and exploration - because I know that, after searching for answers in forums and new age websites for more than two years now, I've been looking in the wrong place.

Phong,

You, and Manuel, and everyone, are certainly entitled to your opinions.  You were entitled to your opinion when you were a newby, and you are entitled to it now.  So is everyone.

That is why I protest the abuse of the insecure.  The above paragraph displays in blazing detail how, under the guise of helpfulness and a claim to wisdom, some try to justify belittlement and condescension.

Of course Manuel is right.  Of course poeple need to learn to think for themselves and seek their own truth - but I think everyone here would also admit to at one time being a newby; insecure, unsure, curious, afraid.  You have to go through there to get to here, and in order to do that you have to walk the path and make the journey.

So, instead of belittling and judging, that is why I recommend simply lending a little support.  I didn't think it would be any skin off anyone's butt - I guess I was wrong.

Call me chagrined.
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majour ka
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2004, 14:37:51 »

I agree with manuel in one respect, that we hold our own answers, and may find our own truths. But as manuel mentiond he has only recently dicoverd this for him self. Im very gald for Manuel. I often go to start a "what happend" kind of post and the answer comes to me as im writing it! so I wont bother. I also think it nieave to presume that we understand or know everything, share and keep an open mind.

One quater of a cents worth [Smiley] Marcus.

"Trust one that has been though it  "Winston Churchhill"
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kiauma
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2004, 14:51:54 »

I also think it nieave to presume that we understand or know everything, share and keep an open mind.

Yes.  Isn't it ironic how some seem to exalt in their spiritual accomplishments even as they show such impatience in those who come after them?

Yeesh.
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Phong
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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2004, 14:56:52 »

quote:
- but I think everyone here would also admit to at one time being a newby; insecure, unsure, curious, afraid.



I'll openly admit that I only felt more afraid and insecure after visiting astral projection forums. I started asking myself questions like, "am I being attacked by a spirit?" People had similar experiences, after all, and they appeared to be more experienced in them.. did they know something I didn't? Eventually I started wondering, "are other people's higher selves interacting with my higher self?" and "if we go to the astral after death, why don't I just kill myself now? Travelling there would be easier without having a body to wake up to, wouldn't it?"

This is not a critque on whether the forum is by nature good or bad, and I wouldn't make judgements on it anyways. But I do question the usefulness of discourse on this subject. But then I can't say I really advocate a world where everybody bottles up their curiosities to themselves.

Maybe I'm waiting for someone to tell me I should leave? And have the feeling that I should go "reassured."
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clandestino
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2004, 15:01:04 »

quote:
This is not a critque on whether the forum is by nature good or bad, and I wouldn't make judgements on it anyways. But I do question the usefulness of discourse on this subject.


The discourse that takes place serves the purpose of hearing other's points of view. Also it can sometimes be inspiring !
regards
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Rastus
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2004, 15:04:50 »

According to this forum, I've had a LOT more AP's than I ever thought I did.  My definition of an OOBE was always the classic floating over your own body.  I always took LD's for granted until I came here.  Has my reality changed at all?  No, but what I take for granted has changed.

This board has a very mechanical metaphysical twist (if such a thing is possible [Wink] ).  Other disciplines are discussed and have their own forums, but everything is distinctly 'Bruceian'.    It's his board, so that's fine.  But, as I've pointed out before,  there is not single technique that will always work for everyone.  A good analogy is years ago (if you over 40 you know), many schools in the USA forced left-handed children to write right handed (especially parachoial schools ).  Was this the best method to teach them to write?  Absolutely NOT!!!  Did it work?  Mostly I suppose.

So after some work, if someone is hitting a snag, then some careful analyzation can help them clear it.  But to help, you have to work within that persons idiom, and to not tell them to "Study NEW" or "Climb the Rope".  How many people here have studied other disciplines?  Had practical, repeatable, demonstrateable success, and not just in OOBE, but all things Metaphysical?

There are litterally no boundries.  Metamorphic massage is a phenomonal tool for healing.  And I won't go into what you can do with energy manipulation while having sex(Physical sex while manipulating energy on the Astral plane, or Stroking the Aura as I call it).

I guess it comes down to how much help a person deserves?  I mean if they haven't studied much (or at all), then there isn't much you can do if they lack the required skillset.  Impatience is a weakness of us fleshies, and many newbies don't want to be told they need to meditate for months to see concrete results.  Instant gratification isn't a Metaphysical thing (not without tremendous reprocussions).  So I guess it's Karma really, if your not willing to work then your not going to get the results you want.

It's just not this board.  It's 100% the same on another mundane board for working with Video that I haunt as well [Wink]  The equivalent question here would be:

Heeeeeeeeeeeeelp!!!  I gotta OOBE by next tuesday so I can see if my girlfriend is cheating on me with Bob.  I got this book at the library, but I don't have time to read so can someone give me exact instructions on every step so I can do it in 3 days from someone with 2 posts.......
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kiauma
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2004, 15:11:09 »

Ultimately YOU are the one who has to come to terms with your fears Phong.  If these thoughts are occuring to you as you read these forums, then this is evidence of subconscious (that which is not conscious) fears already in your mind.  If you were already confident that such experiences did not apply to you, then you would simply excuse them.

Yet it appears that you do not.  You are unsure already, and only your exposure to different ideas on this forum reveals this to you.  In fact, I would hypothesize that it is your very revulsion of your own subconscious fears that you object to so strongly in noob questions.  You see something in others that you do not like in yourself, and you attack it.

I think this is good, as it gives you a chance to discover and intellectually explore these fears before they can fully crystallize in your conscious behaviour.  

The answer is not to run away or belittle such displays in others, but to make your fears conscious, to defuse any potential reactive patterns that could short circuit your spiritual development.

Of course, that's just my opinion.  [Smiley]
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mactombs
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2004, 20:59:55 »

quote:
So after some work, if someone is hitting a snag, then some careful analyzation can help them clear it. But to help, you have to work within that persons idiom, and to not tell them to "Study NEW" or "Climb the Rope". How many people here have studied other disciplines? Had practical, repeatable, demonstrateable success, and not just in OOBE, but all things Metaphysical?


I agree with a lot of what Rastus said. I've looked in many other places besides Bruce works. For me the "Climb the Rope" technique is among the worst for me personally. It is important to develop your own best methods.

I also agree that some "newbies" are irritating (especially when using slang-spelling, !!!!, etc.) and these I just ignore. Most of them seem to approach the whole subject like it were Harry Potter or anime, or the secret to being a m@d 733T power-g@m3r. As far as people posting questions with obvious answers, definitely a number of them just want to be told they are part of the special group now. I think a better approach to this is encouraging self-discovery and greater independence.
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kiauma
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2004, 00:40:29 »

quote:
I think a better approach to this is encouraging self-discovery and greater independence.


Where do I say I am against this?  

Let me repeat; "I protest the abuse of the insecure."  "...under the guise of helpfulness and a claim to wisdom, some try to justify belittlement and condescension."   "So, instead of belittling and judging ... I recommend simply lending a little support.   I didn't think it would be any skin off anyone's butt - I guess I was wrong."
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Phong
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2004, 22:08:54 »

quote:
Originally posted by kiauma

In fact, I would hypothesize that it is your very revulsion of your own subconscious fears that you object to so strongly in noob questions.  
...



I gave considerable thought to this even before you mentioned it. After all aren't all of our objections of people really just objections of our own state or potential (maybe)? But let me confidently assure that this is not the case here as I'm not objecting the people but the questions they use to start a discussion.

I hold on to these possibilities (spirits, higher selves, etc.) because I'm a scientist and I consider the experiences (read experiments and theories) of others in my formulation of objective reality. But aren't these just pantheistic and pneumatological ideas arising from asking what OBE's are instead of asking how they affect the world and our lives (what they do)?

When a "noob" comes to the board and asks the questions manuel outlined above, someone refers them to the Roberts' books, websites (usually this one), and maybe some other threads. Either way it's a whole lot of "maybes" creating a whole bunch of nothing. "All talk," as manuel would say. The moderators allow these threads because everyone has their own ideas and it promotes free speech, but any conclusions are one hundred percent faith-based.

If someone is sitting in front of the TV and asking, "what am I experiencing," that's a good question - to ask themselves. Ask someone else not in the room and they might say "maybe you're watching TV?" In this case the room is your mind and the TV is an OBE, when there are plenty of other things you can do in your mind we don't really know about because we're not in your mind, we're in ours.

Surprisingly little is said in projection forums about how our lives have changed through experiencing this phenomena and what we have been able to do with these experiences. That's really no one's fault but our own.

I don't want to ridicule "noobs" kiauma. But I do want to let them know that answers to those questions come from experience (which is what everyone else says) and that it's naive, irresponsible, and wholly immature to think that other people can make judgments on someone else's personal subjective experience. There's no "noob factor" with regards to your own mind. Jesus, the way you say it you'd think I was conspiring against the establishment or something.

[Edit: I know some of you are going to say the TV analogy is categorically different because OBE's have similar descriptions. So if someone said, "describe your experience," and you said, "I'm looking at pictures on a screen," they could infer reasonably that you're watching TV. Not so - you could just as well be looking at a computer.  In this way we can liken TV's to normal dream experiences (passive) and the computer to OBE's (active).]
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manuel
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2004, 14:43:52 »

What was my experience?
What did I experience?
Was it an OBE?
What do the vibrations feel like?
Is it real?
Did I leave my body?
Can some one tell me what this is?

These and many countless variations of these sort of questions have been asked on every single astral projection forum, here and far, I have seen it over, and over, and over! The thing is, the person who asks, usually knows what they experienced, enough is enough! as explorers of other states of consciousness, from curious, beginner, in between and veteran, we as spirits can use our own minds! Now, ill be honest, early in my development, I asked such questions and i did know the answers, it came from the fact that i wanted some sort of reassurance, of course there are those who really donít know what is happening, but lets be honest, if you are asking such questions in an astral projection forum, you by now should have at the very least have some knowledge on it, so...What do I think happened? Etc
Ask YOUR SELF! You are the best guide; of course there are those who can give a lending hand, it little wonder why so many people have warped perceptions out of body! We are using other's perceptions, and expectations! Its like using some one elseís reading glasses, all this was revealed to me the other day, with much gratitude to my lovely friend for guiding me to it (you know whom you are) be your own explorer! Explore, go father then any one else! When we rely on others perceptions and experiences, we limit our selves, we warp our perceptions deeply! discover for your self!

Please don't take this wrong or Offensively as I dont mean it in that way.
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