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Author Topic: An Explanation for astral projection?  (Read 8728 times)
Jeehad
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« on: November 22, 2006, 21:24:20 »

 Don't take offense to my thread:P I was just wondering there needs to be a logical explanation to astral projection instead of your soul being divided from your body, or even physically projecting. MY question, are there any scientific conducts to astral projection? Cause to me it seems weird, I mean people claim they can visit the moon but yet NASA spends billions of dollars on launching space shuttles, and i'm quiet sure NASA would know about astral projection:P MY question is, If its true and works for sure then why arent there any scientific theories? Couldn't it just be us humans entering a dream phase? Dreams don't act on a plane btw dreams are scientifically proven to be the rearranging of thoughts within your mind in oder to process it for the next day. Dreams sometimes form images, and may have hidden symbols and such so couldn't you guys be projecting in a dream "world" type thing instead of the "real" world?
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projektr
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 00:03:35 »

There are many explanations how dreams occur. In the end these explanations are based on theory too, which to me mostly all make an accurate meaning to how they occur.
As to what causes dreams is said that the brain releases a chemical called DMT (Dimenthyltryptamine) which is a hallucinogen. And the brain releases the most DMT during REM sleep or right before death.
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 00:03:35 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Jeehad
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2006, 03:37:33 »

No offense taken, very good questions imo. TBH, I was at first offended by the name Jeehad because of the negative conotations, but you seem to be a regular sensable person.

Talking about dreams is a good place to start because I'm not aware of any arguments that say that dreaming isn't a common human experience.

During a dream, we experience conscous activity and complete imaginary environments that can involve all the senses. Because the physical body is asleep and not actually in the dream, in that sense the conscous dream self can be said to be separate from the body.
In most cases the dream self has a body that interacts with the dream scene.

But we know that it's not separate, we're just dreaming, and the conscousness is experiencing a virtual environment.

The interesting part comes next when the conscousness experiences degrees of lucidity within varring degress of construct virtual to actual consensus environments. The experience can be very dynamic and range from one to the other in a matter of moments during the same session.

" I mean people claim they can visit the moon but yet NASA spends billions of dollars....... "

I ask the same question! In fact, I'm in the process of searching for ancient artwork that has anything that resembles the Hubble pictures of deep space, galaxys, nubulas, cosmic dust and gas. If monks and yogis of the past have indeed been transporting their conscousness to explore the physical universe, why don't we see Hubble like pictures in ancient artwork?

I'm just guessing that using the transportation of conscousness to explore the physical universe is a waste of precious time when that time can be used to experience spiritual realms. I know it sounds like a convenient excuse, but the question remains.

Imagine going up to a scientist and declaring, " I want to prove to you that I'm awake"
You see how rediculous that is? What's the point?




 

First of all, I would have taken offense for you misunderstanding the true meaning of jihad. Jihad is actually very VERY peaceful, first and foremost War is forbidden in Islam 10000000%. The Word jihad means to struggle in the way of god, therefore jihad is basically anything I perform for my lord. People in the west misunderstand Jihad as meaning Holy war but any reliable dictionary would contradict the media. Lesson number one, never ever trust the media enrich your mind through reading about the religion Itself. There main purpose is to destroy Islam to serve there own stupid cause as a right to kill innocent lives which have nothing to do with terrorism, thats a debate for another day:P U talk about DMT which is actually a chemical released by ure amygdala which separates body from soul so lucid dreaming is basically allowing your body not to take effect of this product its not necessarily a hallucinogen since its a natural by product of the body. Dreams are formed by your thoughts being rearranged which sometimes could form thoughts pictures. So couldn't astral projectors just be experiencing a lucid dream, considering it meets the exact symptoms of dreams. I inevitably believe the mind is a powerful thing although recreating things in realms and such can only be done through your imagination and making it seem live to you can only done through dreaming therefore it totally makes sense!!! Although, the monks and Mayans and priests you speak of actually have used technology which they had at there time. The mayans had pyramids which were positioned through there own "star" formations telling them the "calender of events. Therefore the mayans actually did do studies considering the thousands of mathematical equations found. Another thing, many of these spiritual pirests did not come to an exact conclusion and theres no record they astral projected. Im well aware that NASA or any of such programs know about Astral Projecting and surely though would use it for there own will(cmon its
America were talking about:P). Just my thoughts!
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Kraven Obscuria
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2006, 15:58:53 »

"MY question, are there any scientific conducts to astral projection? Cause to me it seems weird, I mean people claim they can visit the moon but yet NASA spends billions of dollars on launching space shuttles, and i'm quiet sure NASA would know about astral projection:"


Jeehad,
This is not quite Astal Projection, but another psychic capability called Remote Viewing....

The Stargate Project was one of a number of code names used to cover "remote viewing programs." Others included Sun Streak, Grill Flame, and Center Lane, by DIA and INSCOM, and SCANATE by CIA, from the 1970s, through to 1995. It was an offshoot of research done at Stanford Research Institute (SRI).
Over $20 million spent by the United States Government, to gain a competitive advantage over their Russian foes during the Cold War.

Try doing searches for: Joe McMoneagle, Ingo Swann, Harold Puthoff
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FrostyRose
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2006, 20:52:41 »

Hello,

I've heard that the reason behind us leaving our physical body when we go to sleep, is so that we can recharge, get new energy. Apparantly that can't happen when we're in the physical body, because we're using it, - we're awake. To be asleep means that our consciousness is in the astral, and not in the physical body.
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2006, 20:52:41 »



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Jeehad
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2006, 22:20:15 »

But personally I dont think Astral projection is your soul nor do I think people can actually do that. It may be caused by the DMT(a hallucinative product released when dreaming). Couldn't it be possible that people are just experiencing a "lucid" dream where they think they are outside there bodies? It doesn't make sense for it to truly be your soul, considering the soul is apart of your entire body, your soul is your mind heart consciousness the whole load! Your simple "transfering" consciousness into a dream state which you are aware of your surroundings but yet its all part of the mind?Couldn't that be a reason behind it? Why would they spend hundreds of millions of dollars to AP when Aping literally requires no money at all! Doesn't really make sense to me:P I've googled Joe McMoneagle, Ingo Swann, Harold Puthoff and alot of the sites were not reliable sources.
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projektr
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2006, 22:40:45 »

Just a thought, i don't think they would travel to the moon just to look at it. They gathered samples, recorded footage, plus the experience of travelling in space to the moon. I assume there would be quite a difference experiencing the moon in the physical compared to projecting.  smiley

Just a thought again, i think the moon landing was a hoax  cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2006, 22:44:14 »

This post describes some experiments.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php?topic=1351.msg8247#msg8247
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Jeehad
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2006, 01:49:14 »

Well sorry, let me restate that again. I dont think people are able to project into the physical world looking at the physical world meaning I don't think we can remote view, Its probably simply your body going into a lucidic dream state. Couldn't that be a possibility? The experiments are not reliable:P There not actual conducted experiments by world renounced scientists or university professors performing research, its just some random guy on the internet "claiming" he performed an experiment! Hey I could be wrong so all I am going to say for now is only God has the knowledge, only he holds the truth about this and the truths about everything in the world. Nor Do I believe the Americans went to the moon it was probably a hoax but heyy!!! lol thats besides the point. Thnk you guys so much and may peace and blessings be upon you all Smiley
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Kraven Obscuria
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2006, 04:12:43 »

"The experiments are not reliable:P There not actual conducted experiments by world renounced scientists or university professors performing research, its just some random guy on the internet "claiming" he performed an experiment!"

Do you really think some "random guy on the Internet" would spawn a classified project, given million of dollars over 20 years  and be given support by Stanford University,the DIA, the US Millitary and the Central Intelligence Agency?

Secondly, if it's empirically organized experimentation, conducted within the confines of current scientific methodolgy you are requesting, check this out....

Dr. Jim Tucker and others at the University of Virginia, Division of Perceptual Studies conduct some interesting practices including, but not limited to the study of:
*After Death Communications
*Out of Body Experiences
*Children who claim to remember past lives
 -This being done since 1961, hundeds upon hundreds of children present past life memories, with many of the details being factually verified, that couldn't have been known otherwise.

A quote from one of the books, produced by the University's ongoing research:

"Current mainstream scientific opinion holds that all aspects of human mind and consciousness are generated by physical processes occurring in the brain.  This book demonstrates with empirical evidence that this reductive materialism is not only incomplete but false"

Source:http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/home.cfm
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bounda
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2006, 05:15:48 »

i didnt read any of the replies, but may i state that if you project to the moon of course you see the moon, but you cant bring back evidence that you can study such as moonrocks
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projektr
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2006, 13:21:39 »

"The experiments are not reliable:P There not actual conducted experiments by world renounced scientists or university professors performing research, its just some random guy on the internet "claiming" he performed an experiment!"

Do you really think some "random guy on the Internet" would spawn a classified project, given million of dollars over 20 years  and be given support by Stanford University,the DIA, the US Millitary and the Central Intelligence Agency?

Secondly, if it's empirically organized experimentation, conducted within the confines of current scientific methodolgy you are requesting, check this out....

Dr. Jim Tucker and others at the University of Virginia, Division of Perceptual Studies conduct some interesting practices including, but not limited to the study of:
*After Death Communications
*Out of Body Experiences
*Children who claim to remember past lives
 -This being done since 1961, hundeds upon hundreds of children present past life memories, with many of the details being factually verified, that couldn't have been known otherwise.

A quote from one of the books, produced by the University's ongoing research:

"Current mainstream scientific opinion holds that all aspects of human mind and consciousness are generated by physical processes occurring in the brain.  This book demonstrates with empirical evidence that this reductive materialism is not only incomplete but false"

Source:http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/home.cfm

Results on research are not 100% accurate i would assume, therefore cannot be completely verifiable.
I am still yet to meet a true clairvoyant (if anyone knows someone, please forward an invitation Smiley )
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2006, 14:38:57 »

Hi Jeehad,

To date, astral projection simply consists of peoples own personal experiences and whatever philosophies they have chosen to construct to help explain these experiences. There has been a lot of attempts at verifying the reality of AP, yet there is little to no empirical evidence which shows AP is more than creative imagination – which utilises the brain constructs used to give perceived external reality its structure (i.e. the same pathways used for vision are actually used for internal visualisation too).
This doesn’t discount the possibility of AP having a reality outside of what we give it, and doesn’t discount the possibility of science finding proofs of it as it advances. But to date, all we have are our own experiences and belief.
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Kraven Obscuria
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 14:55:29 »

Hi Jeehad,

To date, astral projection simply consists of peoples own personal experiences and whatever philosophies they have chosen to construct to help explain these experiences. There has been a lot of attempts at verifying the reality of AP, yet there is little to no empirical evidence which shows AP is more than creative imagination – which utilises the brain constructs used to give perceived external reality its structure (i.e. the same pathways used for vision are actually used for internal visualisation too).
This doesn’t discount the possibility of AP having a reality outside of what we give it, and doesn’t discount the possibility of science finding proofs of it as it advances. But to date, all we have are our own experiences and belief.


Well said MasterJingo,  your own experiences are what will give you the greatest proof/or lack thereof.

"Results on research are not 100% accurate i would assume, therefore cannot be completely verifiable.
I am still yet to meet a true clairvoyant
."

Projektor, I agree that no research is 100% accurate. smiley  But when a situation can be reproduced again and again given the same stimuli, that at least lends itself to a high probability of accuracy.  Again I can't 100% speak for anyone else whether scientist or layman.  All I can offer is that when I have conducted certain practices in order to project, I have had mostly the same results, time after time. Some of the experiences were so amazingly vivid, they would be hard to deny. 
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2006, 17:19:16 »

Hi Jeehad

You said... "dreams are scientifically proven to be the rearranging of thoughts within your mind in oder to process it for the next day." ... Well I'm sorry to inform you that it's not scientifically proven, it's just a common theory! Just like the theory of the world being flat... It seemed obvious at the time, but the theory was wrong.

What scientists don't understand or have no answer to is why one needs to be unconscious for one to rearrange their thoughts or recharge their bodies. Why can't you just go and sit down for eight hours and be still without nodding off each night? The physical body needs sleep and scientists don't know why!
 If projecting into the RTZ or remote viewing was easy, we'd all be doing it all the time, there would be an infinate amount of things you could see. The truth is, inducing an OBE is extremly difficult to do on a regular basis and APing into the RTZ is rare. And most of the time when people talk of APing into the RTZ, it takes just a slight lack of concentration for the experience to become lucid.

There are certain emotions that can't be tested e.g. Love, sadness, comfort, fear etc... I mean they can monitor the brain and see which parts are activiated when you feel these emotions but they can't set up an experiment to test the emotions. I mean how can you scientifically test the difference between the love one has for their mother compared to the love one has for their spouse. We all know they are different but they are not 'testable.' Because they are subjective. A bit like the difference between projecting into the astral or the RTZ, you know the difference but it can't be tested.

IMO, OBE's are emotional (Ive only had 3) it's an indescribable feeling you know what you are experiencing but it can't be tested. I was skeptical at first, and I'm still not 100% sure what they could be or mean. But until you experience it, you shouldn't right it off.

Maybe you don't like the idea of APing becuase it interfears with your religious belief system?

 
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2006, 19:29:07 »

if you relly want some other word for soul you could use sub-contous not relly sure how to explane it but i dont relly think that your soul is in sepertable well you dont relly think with your hart or love with it cause like the rambling of goo from fasters she said some ting about brain hart 
heres a ton of links that have that at least sugest that it is leaving your body and so on

Here are some great links you *can use* as evidence in favor...

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html - 53 Items of Evidence for Survival Of Consciousness

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html - Indepth Research Results of the US Government's 20 Year Veridical OBE Program "Remote Viewing"

The "Dying Brain Theory" of Skeptics has Severe Problems
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles001.html

"People See Verified Events While Out-Of-Body"
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence02.html

"People Born Blind Can See During a NDE", Dr. Kenneth Ring's NDE Research of the Blind. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm - "A research study published in The Lancet, a leading medical journal, by Pim van Lommel and colleagues.

http://www.melvinmorse.com/light.htm - Here's Melvin Morse's website. The one who revived that little girl who had been clinically dead underwater for 19 minutes and had given that information and had drawn that picture. Melvin Morse is a pediatrician and neuroscientist who has spent fifteen years studying the near death experiences (NDEs) of children. That firsthand case was the one that sparked interest in him to pursue studying NDEs. He was an unbeliever before that experience happened to him.

http://www.nbc10.com/video/3253863/index.html - Is There Life After Death? NBC 10 News Investigators (Melvin Morse Video Interview)

Pam Reynold's NDE: (The Strongest Case of Veridical Evidence)
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/animals02.html - Lynn's Near-Death Experience (One of my favorite Veridical NDEs)

http://www.geocities.com/wwu777us/Debunking_Skeptical_Arguments.htm - Debunking Pseudo-Skeptical Arguments of Paranormal Debunkers

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/home.htm - Lots of interesting interviews with people in the paranormal field
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projektr
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2006, 02:36:20 »

You said... "dreams are scientifically proven to be the rearranging of thoughts within your mind in oder to process it for the next day." ... Well I'm sorry to inform you that it's not scientifically proven, it's just a common theory! Just like the theory of the world being flat... It seemed obvious at the time, but the theory was wrong.

What scientists don't understand or have no answer to is why one needs to be unconscious for one to rearrange their thoughts or recharge their bodies. Why can't you just go and sit down for eight hours and be still without nodding off each night? The physical body needs sleep and scientists don't know why!
 If projecting into the RTZ or remote viewing was easy, we'd all be doing it all the time, there would be an infinate amount of things you could see. The truth is, inducing an OBE is extremly difficult to do on a regular basis and APing into the RTZ is rare. And most of the time when people talk of APing into the RTZ, it takes just a slight lack of concentration for the experience to become lucid.

There are certain emotions that can't be tested e.g. Love, sadness, comfort, fear etc... I mean they can monitor the brain and see which parts are activiated when you feel these emotions but they can't set up an experiment to test the emotions. I mean how can you scientifically test the difference between the love one has for their mother compared to the love one has for their spouse. We all know they are different but they are not 'testable.' Because they are subjective. A bit like the difference between projecting into the astral or the RTZ, you know the difference but it can't be tested.

IMO, OBE's are emotional (Ive only had 3) it's an indescribable feeling you know what you are experiencing but it can't be tested. I was skeptical at first, and I'm still not 100% sure what they could be or mean. But until you experience it, you shouldn't right it off.

Maybe you don't like the idea of APing becuase it interfears with your religious belief system?

 

People thought the earth was flat and they were proven wrong. Technology advances in time. Most supernatural things long ago in the past can now be scientifically explained. I believe as technology progresses, we would be able to explain why such experiences occur.
Like MisterJingo said, now all we have is our own experiences and beliefs. We all believe what we want to believe.
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2006, 06:11:36 »

Hey Jeehad,

I have been reading thru some of these replies and I must comment. What was said previous about OBE's being a personalized experience with validation this is true. We all can post our experiences, conduct our own validations but this won't mean anything to you or the next person.

I've done extensive research, am a experienced projectionist for the last 20 years. Tracked many validations, controlled and uncontrolled. Have experienced precognitive experiences within minutes to weeks in advance during the trance/obe state and have evolved spiritual building a personal closer relationship with God based on my religious beliefs.

Your more then welcome to visit my web site, view the data, experineces, interviews and track my progress over the years. Www.InvisibleLight.Us and judge for yourself.
If you really want to find validation, start looking at consciousness, obe's more on a spiritual level then mechanical.

This is my .2 and what I can offer..

Good Luck!

Tvos

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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2006, 07:17:54 »

Hi Jeehad  wink


Yes, this is a very rational arguement, and of course one that arises several times a month (heck, even I mention it regularly in my posts).

There are incredible similarities between OBE and dreams, such as each being a non-physical experience generally occuring in the period of REM, each seemingly presenting a subjective world alterable by thought alone, and each being difficult to recall back in the waking state.

I think it has been demonstrated, however, that people experiencing OBE have been able to retrieve information (remote viewing) that they would not have had access to otherwise, and this suggests that something not currently understood by science is occurring, as the information is originating outside of their own body and physical senses, which dreams purportedly do not. Project Stargate, a remote viewing program sponsored by the U.S. gov., produced incredible amounts of data suggesting the reality of the phenomenon.

One of the more well known instances of positive results by a private group is recorded by the famous Charles Tart, the excerpt found below. I know that there is a lot of information, but you are trying to advance a claim against the transcendental nature of OBEs, and in order to do that, you have to refute all evidence to the contrary.


I hope this is helpful  wink



Quote
"Autoscopy" is the phenomenon of seeing yourself from a position outside of your body. Dr. Charles T. Tart, the author of Body Mind Spirit, is known for his experimental work in autoscopic and near-death experiences. He is the professor of psychology at the University of California at Davis. Charles Tart is internationally known for his psychological work on the nature of consciousness (particularly altered states of consciousness) and as one of the founders of the field of transpersonal psychology. He served as an instructor in psychiatry in the School of Medicine of the University of Virginia, and as a consultant on government funded parapsychological research at the Stanford Research Institute. His website is filled with gems concerning the out-of-body phenomenon.

The following is an excerpt from an article by Dr. Tart which was published in the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research. In it, Dr. Tart documents the out-of-body experience of a young woman who was one of his research subjects. What makes this particular out-of-body experience remarkable is that she was able to leave her physical body and read a 5-digit number, which was at a significant distance, and correctly give it to him upon return.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A young woman who frequently had spontaneous out-of-body experiences was studied in a sleep laboratory for four nights. She reported several partially out-of-body experiences and two full ones.

During a conversation with a friend (whom we shall call Miss Z) a couple of years ago, she reported that she had spontaneous out-of-body experiences approximately two to four times a week and that she would be interested in being studied in the laboratory. As this afforded an unusual opportunity for research, I studied her for four nights in a sleep laboratory in order to determine what, if any, psychophysiological correlates of her out-of-body experiences occurred. This paper will describe Miss Z and her spontaneous experiences, and report on the psychophysiological studies which were carried out.

She would wake once or twice during a night's sleep. Each time she would find herself floating near the ceiling, but otherwise seemingly wide awake. This condition would last for a few seconds to half a minute. She frequently observed her physical body lying on the bed. Then she would fall asleep again and that was all there was to the experience. As far as she could recall, these experiences had been occurring several times weekly all of her life. As a child, she had not realized that there was anything unusual about them. She assumed that everyone had such experiences during sleep, and never thought to mention them to anyone. After speaking about them to friends several times as a teenager, however, she realized that they were looked upon as "queer" experiences, and she stopped discussing them. At the time of the experiment, she had never read anything about such experiences. After initially hearing about her experiences, I asked her to refrain from reading anything about them until our experiments were completed, and she complied with this request. Note that Miss Z had never made any attempts to control her out-of-body experiences, nor did she attach any great significance to them. She definitely felt that they were not dreams, but she was otherwise puzzled as to what they were.

Laboratory Procedure

I was able to observe Miss Z in my sleep laboratory for four non-consecutive nights, over a period of approximately two months. The procedure was essentially the same on all nights, and will be described here. Miss Z's electroencephalogram (EEG) was recorded each night. The sleep laboratory consisted of two rooms, each lined with acoustic tile for sound attenuation. A large window was between the rooms for viewing, but in this experiment it was covered with a Venetian blind in order that the subject's room could be reasonably dark for sleeping. This blind allowed enough light to come through so that the subject's room was dimly illuminated, but not enough to disturb sleep. The polygraphs were located in the second room, and the door was kept closed. An intercom system allowed hearing anything the subject said. I monitored the recording equipment throughout the night while the subject slept and kept notes of anything she said or did. Occasionally I dozed during the night, beside the equipment, so possible instances of sleep talking might have been missed. The subject slept on a comfortable bed just below the observation window.

The leads from all electrodes were bound into a common cable running off the top of her head, and terminating in an electrode box on the head of the bed. This arrangement allowed her enough slack wire so that she could turn over in bed and otherwise be comfortable, but did not allow her to sit up more than two feet without disconnecting the wires from the box, an event which would show up on the recording equipment as a tremendous amount of sixty cycle artifact. Thus her movements were well controlled. Immediately above the observation window (about five and a half feet above the level of the subject's head) was a small shelf (about ten inches by five inches). Immediately above this shelf was a large clock, mounted on the wall.

Each laboratory night, after the subject was lying in bed, the physiological recordings were running satisfactorily, and she was ready to go to sleep, I went into my office down the hall, opened a table of random numbers at random, threw a coin onto the table as a means of random entry into the page, and copied off the first five digits immediately above where the coin landed.

These were copied with a black marking pen, in figures approximately two inches high, onto a small piece of paper. Thus they were quite discrete visually. This five-digit random number constituted the parapsychological target for the evening. I then slipped it into an opaque folder, entered the subject's room, and slipped the piece of paper onto the shelf without at any time exposing it to the subject. This now provided a target which would be clearly visible to anyone whose eyes were located approximately six and a half feet off the floor or higher, but was otherwise not visible to the subject. The subject was instructed to sleep well, to try and have an out-of-body experience, and if she did so to try to wake up immediately afterwards and tell me about it, so I could note on the polygraph records when it had occurred. She was also told that if she floated high enough to read the five-digit number she should memorize it and wake up immediately afterwards to tell me what it was. My conversation with Miss Z after I had prepared the target was, of course, minimal and could not have given her any clue as to the target number.

On reporting to the laboratory on the fourth night, Miss Z seemed to be determined to have the right kind of out-of-body experience. Although I had indicated complete satisfaction with her performance so far, she was angry at herself because she had not been able to float up and read the target number. Miss Z went quickly to sleep, entering Stages 3 and 4 less than fifteen minutes after going to bed. The night was uneventful for the most part - there were several Stage 1 dream periods in the first two-thirds of the night, as would be expected for any normal subject. After four and a half hours of sleep, she had a Stage 1 dream period with REMs which lasted for half an hour. The EEG was technically rather poor on this night, being obscured with a great deal of sixty cycle artifact and requiring rather heavy high frequency filtering to make it clear, so the EEG findings should be taken with the realization that they are subject to more error than usual. Miss Z's Stage 1 dream terminated with several minutes of intermittent body movements and EEG artifact. Then (at 5:50 A.M.) the occipital channel showed an enlarged, slow wave artifact, the REM channel showed no REMs, and the record looked like a Stage I tracing; however, I could not be sure due to the considerations mentioned above. At 5:57 A.M. the slow wave artifact was lessened and the record looked somewhat like Stage 1 with REMs, but I could not be sure whether this was a waking or a Stage I record. This lasted until 6:04 A.M., at which time Miss Z awoke and called out that the target number was 25132. This was correct (with the digits in correct order), but I did not say anything to her at this point; I merely indicated that I had written the number down on the record. I then told her she could go back to sleep, but twenty minutes later I awakened her so that she could get ready to go to work. At this time, she described her experience as follows:

"I woke up; it was stifling in the room. Awake for about five minutes. I kept waking up and drifting off, having floating feelings over and over. I needed to go higher because the number was lying down. Between 5:50 and 6:00 A.M. that did it ... I wanted to go read the number in the next room, but I couldn't leave the room, open the door, or float through the door ... I couldn't turn off the air conditioner!"

It should be mentioned that Miss Z had expected me to prop the target number up against the wall on the shelf; actually, I had laid it flat on the shelf, which she correctly perceived. Also, I had put a second number on a shelf in the equipment room, but she reported she could not get into this room to see the number. Neither could she turn off the air conditioner, and she complained - that although it had been stifling, it was too cold in the room by that time. Since Miss Z's correctly calling a five-digit number (P = 10^-5) [i.e., odds of 1 in 100,000] was the first strong evidence that her out-of-body experiences contained a parapsychological element, I inspected the laboratory carefully the next day to see if there was any way in which this number could have been read by non parapsychological means.

As a first alternative to an explanation involving extrasensory perception, we decided that "sophisticated" cheating by Miss Z was not impossible. She might have concealed mirrors and reaching rods in her pajamas and used these during the period when the EEG was difficult to classify (due to movement artifacts) to read the number. While this is possible, I personally doubt that it occurred. The second alternative is that she might have seen the number reflected in the surface of the case of the clock which was mounted on the wall above it. This was the only reflecting surface in the room placed in such a way that this might have been possible. Both Dr. Hastings and I spent some time in the dimly lit room to dark-adapt our eyes, and tried to read a number from the subject's position on the bed, as reflected on the surface of the clock. As the room was dimly lit and the surface of the clock was black plastic, we could not see anything of the number. However, when we shone a flashlight directly on the number (increasing its brightness by a factor somewhere between several hundred and several thousand) we could just make out what the number was in the much brighter reflection. Thus, although it seems unlikely, one could argue that the number constituted a "subliminal" stimulus in its reflection off the clock surface. Therefore, Miss Z's reading of the target number cannot be considered as providing conclusive evidence for a parapsychological effect. After calling out the number, Miss Z again returned to sleep and spent approximately twenty minutes in a stage where the EEG was again quite difficult to classify. It was a generally low voltage, flattened record which looked rather like a poorly developed Stage 1 record. However, there were no REMs to speak of, and there was only a small amount of alphoid activity. Upon awaking, she reported that she had had a number of floating sensations during this time. [Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1968, vol. 62, no. 1, pp. 3-27.]
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2006, 13:57:03 »

Jeehad,

I understand where you are coming from.

Science does not currently accomodate for OBE's. Simply because OBE's are not observable, any collective conclusion regarding the existance of OBE's is premature, scientifically speaking...

.
Hey I could be wrong so all I am going to say for now is only God has the knowledge, only he holds the truth about this and the truths about everything in the world.

... so is God. Einstein tells us that something travelling faster than the speed of light will transcend time, or more appropriately in this case, the 3rd dimension. The 4th and 5th dimension have been recognised but are not yet observable or measureable by scientific methods. We are simply stating our conscious experience from these and other dimensions. All it requires on your part is, faith.

-AM

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