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Author Topic: Does astral travel prove consciousness exists independently of the body?  (Read 6738 times)
Omo
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« on: May 25, 2013, 20:35:23 »

Hi, this is my first post. Iíve been lurking here for some time, and am amazed by some of the experiences recounted here regarding OBE, astral travel, phasing etc. I have yet to do any of that, not from want of trying, though. For example, Iíve tried phasing but keep falling asleep before anything ďhappensĒ. I did briefly once experience 3D darkness but only for about 10 seconds.

Iím assuming that those who can do these things believe that it proves that consciousness exists independently of the body. Iím hoping it proves that (I think it does logically), as I would like to think that the death of the body is not the end of consciousness.

So Iíd be interested in hearing what those who have astral travelled believe regarding this?
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LookeStuff
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2013, 21:24:58 »

Try phasing in the morning or afternoon if you can fit in... Just so you can keep your consciousness in tact when phasing Smiley

regarding whether consciousness acts independently of the body I would like to think so when it comes to my experiences, but you will make a conclusion once you start so good luck my dude!
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2013, 21:24:58 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Volgerle
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2013, 22:26:29 »

NDEs (including OBEs) and past life regression prove it even more and better, in my view. But yes, AP-"only" can prove it, too.
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Xanth
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2013, 22:44:31 »

Hi, this is my first post. Iíve been lurking here for some time, and am amazed by some of the experiences recounted here regarding OBE, astral travel, phasing etc. I have yet to do any of that, not from want of trying, though. For example, Iíve tried phasing but keep falling asleep before anything ďhappensĒ. I did briefly once experience 3D darkness but only for about 10 seconds.

Iím assuming that those who can do these things believe that it proves that consciousness exists independently of the body. Iím hoping it proves that (I think it does logically), as I would like to think that the death of the body is not the end of consciousness.

So Iíd be interested in hearing what those who have astral travelled believe regarding this?
Does it prove that consciousness exists independently from the body?  Nope.  It proves nothing actually.
Those who have directly experienced it for themselves have their proof... it's not proof for anyone else, because nobody can have your experience.

The problem revolves around what an individual will deem as "proof". 
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Everlasting
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2013, 23:26:44 »

The body is not conscious at all, it's a sensory mechanical device, Only the soul is conscious.
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2013, 23:26:44 »



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Xanth
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 02:29:05 »

The body is not conscious at all, it's a sensory mechanical device, Only the soul is conscious.
But what would you then say if you found out that EVERYTHING is consciousness?

What then happens to your equation above?
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Omo
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2013, 03:59:46 »

Does it prove that consciousness exists independently from the body?  Nope.  It proves nothing actually.
Those who have directly experienced it for themselves have their proof... it's not proof for anyone else, because nobody can have your experience.

The problem revolves around what an individual will deem as "proof". 


Does it prove it to you, though?
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Omo
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 04:02:49 »

The body is not conscious at all, it's a sensory mechanical device, Only the soul is conscious.

Yes, I appreciate that. Iím assuming that consciousness is separate from the body in my question.
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Omo
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2013, 04:04:14 »

Try phasing in the morning or afternoon if you can fit in... Just so you can keep your consciousness in tact when phasing Smiley

regarding whether consciousness acts independently of the body I would like to think so when it comes to my experiences, but you will make a conclusion once you start so good luck my dude!

Thanks. I'll try that.
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Xanth
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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2013, 17:15:15 »

Does it prove it to you, though?
Without a doubt, yes.
But that's a meaningless conclusion to anyone else. 

Another way to put it is that it's my personal truth.
It's not the absolute truth though.
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Omo
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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 17:51:29 »

But at least itís convincing enough for you, and presumably for others who have similar experiences. Thatís at least something to go on in a statistical sense, if not a thoroughly scientific one.
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Wi11iam
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 22:34:21 »


Iím assuming that those who can do these things believe that it proves that consciousness exists independently of the body. Iím hoping it proves that (I think it does logically), as I would like to think that the death of the body is not the end of consciousness.


I think it goes some way to giving the individual subjective evidence that consciousness can 'survive' independently from the body.

The best evidence based on what can be surmised is that the brain creates consciousness and the consciousness is able to interact in this reality as a shared experience - brains create the consciousness and extend this into the experience and align with consciousness created by other brains and consciousness develops through this process and is 'kept alive' through breeding, passing on data to the next generation and building upon the experience.

There is scant evidence that the subjective experience of individuals who have experienced being consciousness independent of the body are able to do something objectively together while in that state in ways which would be able to convince the world in general that - yes indeed - consciousness is able to exist outside of the physical body.

So death of the body could be the end of that ego personality consciousness in terms of YOU experiencing it but not in terms of passing on to others whatever beliefs and knowledge etc that you have yourself inherited or understood from your own experiences...and going by what scientists say, our sun will one day run out of fuel and the sum total of that would be that consciousness (as the collective state of the species) will either perish or it will have found a way to escape that particular fate - and that is assuming no other natural catastrophe happens which has the potential to destroy all life forms on the planet.

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Omo
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2013, 11:40:35 »

There is scant evidence that the subjective experience of individuals who have experienced being consciousness independent of the body are able to do something objectively together while in that state in ways which would be able to convince the world in general that - yes indeed - consciousness is able to exist outside of the physical body.


Maybe not convince the world, but at least other astral travellers that their experience was more than subjective. It would be interesting to set up an experiment for this by forum members who can astral travel. As in the case of NDEs, people who have had them can describe accurately, before they were revived, what was going on in the surrounding environment they ďdiedĒ in. Would this not be also possible with astral travel? Iím assuming it could be.
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Wi11iam
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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 02:19:04 »

Maybe not convince the world, but at least other astral travellers that their experience was more than subjective. It would be interesting to set up an experiment for this by forum members who can astral travel. As in the case of NDEs, people who have had them can describe accurately, before they were revived, what was going on in the surrounding environment they ďdiedĒ in. Would this not be also possible with astral travel? Iím assuming it could be.

The experience is still subjective.  Its seems that there is no real way known where those who can OOB have been able to compile reams of evidence for public to view to support subjective experience being objective as well.

I remember once on a forum doing an experiment with other members to see if we could affect outcomes in this reality.  We chose Crop Circles as our target of influence and 'ordered up' kinds we would like to see.

In all cases, what was asked for came about with the addition of the pleasantly unexpected and we all could subjectively agree that we might well actually be having an affect together and certainly it looked like we were interacting with  whatever intelligence was creating these patterns and it was quiet exciting as far as experiments go and there was enough evidence of circumstantial nature to maybe get the interest of scientists, or if not - others who might be interested in joining such an experiment.

Unfortunately our experiment was scuttled by a personality who jumped on board and was not getting what she ordered and then decided to take a crop circle and say that it had a clear image of her and her pet dog in it - which was not at all obvious certainly not from a scientific point of view (certainly what we were doing showed very obvious correlation) and then she went telling everyone she could that she and her 'group' could order up crop circles and demanded we support her and the whole thing unraveled.  It was pure and clever sabotage.

Fortunately it did help me to understand that not everyone wants us to connect with this intelligence and will go to some extraordinary lengths to make it look like a bunch of woo woo nuts which in turn got me thinking about why some don;t want the general public knowing about this kind of thing...

I guess the underlying point of this little story is that rather than try and prove that which is of another dimension and regarded by science as something of the mind, it could be looked at the other way around - that is - do something in this world which can be seen by others in an objective light, either through their participation or their observing the experiments.



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Xanth
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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 02:38:49 »

I think that the vast AMOUNT of personal experience out there, while isn't "proof", is very hard to ignore.
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LightBeam
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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 02:54:55 »

I believed that we were more than our physical bodies long before my first OBE. Before even having read any materials on the subject whatsoever. I just knew it and I was just a child. Later as I was growing up and reading about spirits, supernatural abilities, Monroe's first book, etc just reinforced my belief. And when I experienced my first OBE I fully understood what feels to be aware of your duality and to be completely free. Also I have experienced several reality validations which matched later what I observed happening on the other side of the globe from where my physical body was laying. So, it's ok to form a basic belief based on other's experiences especially if there are literally millions of cases by now around the world. And especially if you have that gut feeling that it is true, go with it. Your instincts are most likely leading you to the right direction. Not everyone can achieve regular OBEs for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean they cant have the comfort and excitement to believe and expand their knowledge second hand. Always, however apply your logic to everything you read, because you must understand that besides the basic out of body state, what every person experiences out there is strictly individual based on their state of mind.
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Wi11iam
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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 03:47:18 »

I think that the vast AMOUNT of personal experience out there, while isn't "proof", is very hard to ignore.

This is very true - and that amount points to the very definite possibility that these personal experiences are only subjective.  What that points to is that:

1: It is indeed the brain which is causing all the experiences and they are not real.
2: The experiences are real but are and can only ever be subjective.
3: The experiences are real but certain key elements are missing which can assist in the experiences being objectively shared.

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Wi11iam
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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 03:49:50 »

I believed that we were more than our physical bodies long before my first OBE. Before even having read any materials on the subject whatsoever. I just knew it and I was just a child. Later as I was growing up and reading about spirits, supernatural abilities, Monroe's first book, etc just reinforced my belief. And when I experienced my first OBE I fully understood what feels to be aware of your duality and to be completely free. Also I have experienced several reality validations which matched later what I observed happening on the other side of the globe from where my physical body was laying. So, it's ok to form a basic belief based on other's experiences especially if there are literally millions of cases by now around the world. And especially if you have that gut feeling that it is true, go with it. Your instincts are most likely leading you to the right direction. Not everyone can achieve regular OBEs for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean they can have the comfort and excitement to believe and expand their knowledge second hand. Always, however apply your logic to everything you read, because you must understand that besides the basic out of body state, what every person experiences out there is strictly individual based on their state of mind.

Some good relative points.  The more data shared, the better the picture becomes.
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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 05:37:41 »

This is very true - and that amount points to the very definite possibility that these personal experiences are only subjective.  What that points to is that:

1: It is indeed the brain which is causing all the experiences and they are not real.
2: The experiences are real but are and can only ever be subjective.
3: The experiences are real but certain key elements are missing which can assist in the experiences being objectively shared.

The reason why I dismiss #1 is due to not only my personal validations but those of others. Back in late February, I had an OOBE that ended up being more of a prophetic vision. It involve my older sister who was living in Maine at the time. I was told to call her and tell her what I saw. All the info that I was given turned out to be about 97% correct (yes, that is a made up percentage but it would only be more accurate if I raised it).

My sister was literally stunned and speechless for a couple of minutes. Only she and I can definitively say that there was no rational reason or means by which I could have come across this info in any other manner. Since there is no way for us to prove that this experience was 100% genuine and such, I would have to keep #1 up there if I wanted to be speak objectively. This doesn't invalidate anything though. This is obviously your second possibility listed. cool
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Wi11iam
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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 08:21:35 »

The reason why I dismiss #1 is due to not only my personal validations but those of others. Back in late February, I had an OOBE that ended up being more of a prophetic vision. It involve my older sister who was living in Maine at the time. I was told to call her and tell her what I saw. All the info that I was given turned out to be about 97% correct (yes, that is a made up percentage but it would only be more accurate if I raised it).

My sister was literally stunned and speechless for a couple of minutes. Only she and I can definitively say that there was no rational reason or means by which I could have come across this info in any other manner. Since there is no way for us to prove that this experience was 100% genuine and such, I would have to keep #1 up there if I wanted to be speak objectively. This doesn't invalidate anything though. This is obviously your second possibility listed. cool

 # 1  tends to say that the brain which would (if it were true) not only be the creator of consciousness and personality but is also playing tricks on what it has created...on consciousness and personality.

In relation to the experiences which are happening, if it were the brain then it is capable of so much more than what it generally provides in terms of life's experience in the physical and this would show in the way life is being experienced as a species.  If it can generate such awesome and intricate altered states then it should be able to process the same way in non altered states. 

It could be argued that the brain would remain in these altered states if it could, but since it needs nutrients etc, it depends on a functional body in which to work to provide for what is essentially its survival, but again, one would have to ask WHY it wants to survive when it could simply switch over into an altered state, especially since it must know that it will eventually die and thus all states would cease for it.

Of course - it may be limited and actually require the body rests before it can successfully create the altered state and any interruption to that process makes this very difficult to achieve.

However it would be fair to say that it should be able to commune with that which it creates (consciousness and personality) and even force itself to override the personality in order to be heard.

It could be argued that the brain wishes to survive and experience for as long as it is able to and thus will give the personality experiences which might assist the personality to find ways of making sure it has the best chances of achieving this.

It could also be argued that the brain knows it is finite but also knows how it can influence other brains in order that its input is not wasted as it is passed on to other brains and in this way it indirectly 'lives'.  But this seems to be more a function of personality.  It is personality which wants to live, even as it looks to the 'afterlife' and brain would not 'care' one way or the other, because it is just an organ - one which is able to create personality and consciousness but is not interested in either other than as something necessary in order to function in this world.

Perhaps then, the brain creates these alternate experiences simply to keep the personality and consciousness interested?

So it is possible that altered state experience is indeed a product of the brain.

In relation to the type of prophetic experience - how can the brain predict the future?  Obviously for a skeptic who has never experienced such a thing, would have to argue that it simply is not possible and you must be making up stories to reinforce your belief systems.

However, with the possibility that we are living within a very complex hologram, it can be hypothesized that what you experienced was something akin to accessing a program and bringing that data back with you into this reality and seeing it unfold as reality in this reality as you foresaw it in the alternate one.

If so, then perhaps the best place to focus on is not so much the alternate states but THIS one in relation to that one (which is obviously the over-lording influencing reality of the two), and find ways of proving that THIS reality is a virtual one which can be exposed as such.  If it is, then where is the engine which runs this hologram?  Obviously it must be somewhere outside this physical universe - independent of this physical universe and if this is the case, then why is it that we as a specie are largely unaware of this and only rarely access data which can provide subjective evidence - as in you own case - but is not the ordinary and consistent experience of those who experience the alter reality on a regular basis?

What is preventing such a thing being the norm?
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Omo
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 18:51:21 »

I guess the underlying point of this little story is that rather than try and prove that which is of another dimension and regarded by science as something of the mind, it could be looked at the other way around - that is - do something in this world which can be seen by others in an objective light, either through their participation or their observing the experiments.

That is what I meant, such as getting a few people projecting into the RTZ (Iím aware that some here hold that concept as debatable), witnessing something happening miles away, and then confirming it to each other when they return from projecting.
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Omo
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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 19:11:17 »

This is very true - and that amount points to the very definite possibility that these personal experiences are only subjective.  What that points to is that:

1: It is indeed the brain which is causing all the experiences and they are not real.
2: The experiences are real but are and can only ever be subjective.
3: The experiences are real but certain key elements are missing which can assist in the experiences being objectively shared.



I agree that our individual experience of astral travelling canít be objectively shared as, indeed, our individual experience of having consciousness canít be objectively shared but this does not negate that we have consciousness. So surely the same reasoning can be applied to the astral travelling experience, in that those who have it (numbering possibly millions of people) can testify that they have astral travelled, even if the individual ďastral adventuresĒ they experience whilst travelling canít be objectively shared.

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Wi11iam
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 22:14:40 »

I agree that our individual experience of astral travelling canít be objectively shared as, indeed, our individual experience of having consciousness canít be objectively shared but this does not negate that we have consciousness. So surely the same reasoning can be applied to the astral travelling experience, in that those who have it (numbering possibly millions of people) can testify that they have astral travelled, even if the individual ďastral adventuresĒ they experience whilst travelling canít be objectively shared.



Sure, but to what collective purpose is the subjective individual experience?

One answer is that it can provide something of a picture as to what is happening objectively - there are enough shared experiences which verify this objective aspect of the overall astral properties.
So it is no unlike our individual experience which we share in this physical reality - we can and do experience it subjectively but it is still an objective reality that we share.

What is missing in the subjective experiences is the ability to altogether experience it objectively.  It (astral) thus has more of a reflective quality entertaining the individual ego personality rather than providing any particular purpose outside the whims of that personality - which is something of the way individuals live their lives in this physical objective reality and the reason I suspect that many who can, experience this altered state subjectively.

Read Frank Kepple on "Focus Four" which he describes as "Primary Focus 4 of consciousness is the subjective source of all the actions in consciousness. "

All the subjective actions of consciousness gathered as a coherent, intelligent self knowing objective certainty.



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Omo
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2013, 16:28:41 »

One answer is that it can provide something of a picture as to what is happening objectively - there are enough shared experiences which verify this objective aspect of the overall astral properties.
So it is no unlike our individual experience which we share in this physical reality - we can and do experience it subjectively but it is still an objective reality that we share.

This is more or less what I was saying in my last post to you, in response to what I thought you were saying in the third of your three points, when you said, ďThe experiences are real but certain key elements are missing which can assist in the experiences being objectively sharedĒ. I thought you meant by that, that such experiences canít be shared, but now you seem to suggest they can be.
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Wi11iam
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« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2013, 01:52:25 »

This is more or less what I was saying in my last post to you, in response to what I thought you were saying in the third of your three points, when you said, ďThe experiences are real but certain key elements are missing which can assist in the experiences being objectively sharedĒ. I thought you meant by that, that such experiences canít be shared, but now you seem to suggest they can be.


Yes - I was saying that with certain key elements, the experiences can be shared more objectively.  What would those missing elements be and how to go about finding them would be something which would require some kind of understanding as to the nature of that alternate reality and study of the shared experiences of those who report that objective aspect of that reality.

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