Is it possible to astral awaken away from the physical body?

[Summerlander]

AHEM!

First of all, let me clarify the meaning of the term "OOBE"...

It's an out-of-body EXPERIENCE. Note that the term is pragmatic. It does not affirm that the phenomenon is taking place outside of one's body as a certainty. Instead, it is merely descriptive of the sensation - hence the word "experience" in front of it! The reason for this is that no one has ever been able to prove that the human mind acquires a viewpoint outside of the physical body.

Now, I ask those of you who claim OOBEs and lucid dreams don't mix...is it not fair to say that lucid dream give you a sensation of being somewhere other than the body? Thus lucid dreams could be regarded as out-of-body experiences too. I've been an avid projector for three years now and to me there is absolutely no difference between the Mode 2 OOBE and the lucid dream environments - the difference is in the way in which you enter the non-physical field...PERIOD! - I have experienced peculiarities in both and again, in both types, I've had a fair share of fuzziness and HD.

If one believes that they are different, then they manifest that reality for themselves in the Phase state. Sticking to that belief at all costs only adds fuel to the fire.

Mode 1 OOBEs, where one appears to separate into the physical realm, don't escape my scepticism either. They could be really happening outside of the body...but then again, they could be a different type of 'lucid dreaming' where different areas of the brain are active and cause conscious awareness to focus away from imaginative worlds and burlesque representations of reality to focus instead on more true-to-life constructs.

I also take this into account as a possibility considering that split-brained individuals' dreams differ from ours in generally lacking the ambient travesties and symbolism while the sharp and distortion-free dreaming they experience is very utilitarian and true-to-life. Rudolph...I'm surprised you don't think like this seen as you are a retired scientist. You are too quick to jump to belief systems whilst overlooking the great chance that by engraving a particular way of thinking in your mind you may be influencing your experience of the Phase and limiting yourself.

If you want to believe that OOBEs and LDs are a different kettle of fish - fair enough. If you want to believe there are demons and angels, higher and lower in the metaphysical realm - fine. But don't make it out that everyone else's perspectives are wrong or misleading. You, above all, should consider other views and be susceptible to paradigm shifts with that scientific background. You...not me. What happened?

[Rudolph]

I ask those of you who claim OOBEs and lucid dreams don't mix

Who would that be? I have acknowledged every time you have brought it up that yes, indeed there are similarities and the lines are blurred at the edges.

You are too quick to jump to belief systems

What belief system would that be?

Summer, it appears that my well honed objectivity and pristine detachment may be beyond your ability to grasp.

How do I explain this?...

hmmm, I admit that I am a traditionalist and lean more conservative. Just because I reject a new proposal does not mean that I am intransigent. I reject flimsy, poorly worded proposals when they are of dubious value and serve no constructive purpose. When something truly better comes along you will find me to be an early adopter.

[Summerlander]

Okay, Rudolph. I'll leave you with your thoughts. They are beyond my grasp. Well, I couldn't grasp them if I wanted to unless I entered the Phase...your thoughts are thoughts after all...

I'll let you be right, ok Rudy? Just don't throw a tantrum.

[human_eraser]

You can wake up from your sleep, not in SP, but actually out of body. It's very possible. Most of the time though people panic and get sucked into their body. It's happened to me twice. Before I learned about AP, I thought I was being abducted by aliens. (I was on the other side of my room both times near the ceiling.) It could be when people report experiences of "alien abduction" they are actually experiencing this.

[Summerlander]

Very possible! In fact, you should read Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule. There is a connection there! A lot of the subjects reported contact with alien presences when given DMT intravenously. I have no doubt in my mind that when we induce OOBEs or enter the Phase state - whatever you want to call it - we induce our own pineal DMT trips. I've also met strange beings. If I didn't know I was entering the Phase I could have mistaken it these beings for a real close encounter:



You may want to check this out if you find it interesting:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_book_reviews/dmt_the_spirit_molecule-t33244.0.html

[ElectromagneticMan]

Haha seems like i caused a lot of conufsion and debate here. Thanks for the answers, sorry my grammer wasn't great so let me just try to explain it better. For me a dream all in my mind (although I'm considering it to also possibly be it's own world or dimension) using a "thought" body and my surroundings are my subconcious. If I become aware that I am dreaming in the dream then I deem it as a lucid dream.

Now astral projection for me means the seperation of the astral and physical bodies, once seperated you should be right next to your physical. My question was that I woke up from a lucid dream and went straight into astral projection, but instead of being next to my physical body when I astral projected, I was in another house that I knew of.

And for the other part of my question about half in my physical and half in my astral, it happened again to me this morning. I woke up and it felt like I was astral projecting but then the process stops and everything freezes, it felt like my right eye was open which was my astral eye. and my left eye was closed witch was my physical eye... and I could open my left eye with my astral fingers. haha if that makes any sense

Most of us cannot know for a true fact what is what and what true different realities are, we just have our own theories on them.

[ElectromagneticMan]

Very possible! In fact, you should read Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule. There is a connection there! A lot of the subjects reported contact with alien presences when given DMT intravenously. I have no doubt in my mind that when we induce OOBEs or enter the Phase state - whatever you want to call it - we induce our own pineal DMT trips. I've also met strange beings. If I didn't know I was entering the Phase I could have mistaken it these beings for a real close encounter:

You may want to check this out if you find it interesting:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_book_reviews/dmt_the_spirit_molecule-t33244.0.html

yeah i read some of that its amazing stuff, i want DMT so bad D:

[Xanth]

yeah i read some of that its amazing stuff, i want DMT so bad D:

I *HIGHLY* suggest that you learn to shift your consciousness on your own and become proficient with it before you turn to chemicals to do the transition for you.
You'll and your experiences will be much better for it.

[Summerlander]

I agree. You don't need the drugs. In fact, our bodies make DMT and that may provide the mechanism through which we exit our bodies to visit other dimensions. We can do it without pouring exogenous hallucinogens into our brains - although South American shamans drink Ayahuasca in order to get in touch with the spirit realms - and the main ingredient of the brew is DMT!

[Psan]

Becoming lucid during a dream and waking up outside the body are not even close to the same thing.

Not even close.

 

To claim that the experience of one gives knowledge and experience of the other is so misleading as to be flat-out wrong.

I agree completely. This is more than an isolated opinion.
(Although you could have said it less obviously, to protect the beliefs of sensitive people )

LD is a less aware form of altered state, AP (OBE) is a more aware form. These are very distinct and only those who have experienced both can appreciate this sentence. I speak from my experience, the main difference I found was that in LD you can change things, like make someone appear or make a house vanish and other fun stuff. In AP you have less control, which means the reality is more solid and not of your own making. Its as good as the objective reality of physical.

Other major difference I found was that people in LDs are dummies, almost puppets. In AP you are more likely to encounter real 'people'. (You can't prove it but you will have a hard time doubting them, they seem real in every sense). Its another matter that one can 'rise' from an LD to OBE or can 'fall' from OBE to a mere LD. It happens in seconds, so its easy to confuse the two and I do not blame those who got confused and formed a belief. Its natural.

So a difference of level of awareness. There can be even higher levels of awareness than AP, like being aware of both physical and Astral at the same time , while fully awake 'here'. There can be even higher, like bilocation or multilocations in various planes including physical. It is sad that there are no words in English to name these, but if you read the original Sanskrit and Tibetan literature, you will find the words, hundreds of them, one for each distinct level of awareness.

Those who cannot differentiate between an LD and an OBE need to practice more and achieve an OBE instead of compromising on calling an OBE as a dream. Sorry no offense, just a friendly push.

[Astral316]

Those who cannot differentiate between an LD and an OBE need to practice more and achieve an OBE instead of compromising on calling an OBE as a dream. Sorry no offense, just a friendly push.

It's not a matter of compromising, it's a matter of looking at one's own experiences and determining they can't be fit into two neat little boxes. I've experienced plenty of classic OBEs and other non-physical experiences to varying degrees of awareness and this LD/OBE differentiation doesn't resonate with me. So you're saying I need to practice more until it does? Ha!

[Rudolph]

It's not a matter of compromising, it's a matter of looking at one's own experiences and determining they can't be fit into two neat little boxes.

Perhaps the better solution would then be to create more boxes.

To just give up and glom it all into one amorphous batter is half baked and un-digestible, imo.

[Astral316]

Perhaps the better solution would then be to create more boxes.

To just give up and glom it all into one amorphous batter is half baked and un-digestible, imo.

I have all the boxes I need, tbh... etheric, astral and beyond for visual environment, dream or OBE (for level of awareness only), lucid or not lucid, etc. That's all I've needed up to this point... that and the power of description. If you have a grasp on the English language it's not too dificult to convey most non-physical experiences without using such words as OBE, astral, dream, projection, etc.

[Psan]

I've experienced plenty of classic OBEs and other non-physical experiences to varying degrees of awareness and this LD/OBE differentiation doesn't resonate with me. So you're saying I need to practice more until it does? Ha!

You are probably missing the point. One needs to practice more not to become an expert in putting things into boxes and label them, but to experience higher and higher states and to understand why the states are labeled like that.

The newbies must be told that there are higher states than what is commonly called an LD, even if you have perceived it as a continuum and tend to classify all of the range as an LD or whatever. Someone (eg a mystic) may wish to call his entire range of experiences from ordinary dreams to enlightenment as 'non-physical states' but it is going to be utterly confusing for a newbie while the advanced crowd will get it.

Now it can not be disputed that there are distinct qualities to these altered states depending on the level of awareness. This is not just an opinion, this is fairly established. It is ok to label them and agree on the names. It helps the exploration. For a scientific person, classification is a must to understand and communicate. Monroe is a good example.

Most of the people on this forum have heard of only two - LD and AP. An informed Westerner has probably heard of (and experienced) 10-12 such states. A master Yogi can count hundred or so. You can see how the ability to box things finely is a measure of progress.

There can be many reasons why someone fails to see why these things are labeled so and so. One reason might be that he is unable to hold on to a specific awareness level and bobs up and down at a dizzying speed. This happens e.g when you do drugs. So its all "one" for such person. If one does practice hard and holds on to the states and studies them deeply, he will understand why masters tend to draw lines. That was my intention of asking people to practice more.

[ElectromagneticMan]

I *HIGHLY* suggest that you learn to shift your consciousness on your own and become proficient with it before you turn to chemicals to do the transition for you.
You'll and your experiences will be much better for it.

yeah of course, i wouldn't try astral projection or start to learn it by using dmt. i smoke weed and dont try it with it, although weed is amazing for lucid dreaming! just saying id like to try a dmt trip, but not focusing on AP, maybe ill use another form of body which the universe has never known about