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Author Topic: is meditation a requirement to project???  (Read 3199 times)
Ryan
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« on: January 05, 2003, 23:08:15 »

****Is it possible to project whilst the mind chatters away, or MUST the mind be still?Huh ******

In my experience if you are going to have thoughts then have them about what you are trying to do, control them with a concious effort. When I can't still my thoughts I will use a repetetive dialogue such as, "Now I loosen from my body". I try to slow the time between each time I think this, but if a rogue thought pops in there, I quickly go back to "Now I loosen from my body". So  I'd have to say yes you can project while thinking, as I have done it this way many times.

*****Does the chasm between a still mind and chattering mind become closer the more someone meditates?Huh****

 Shutting off the internal dialogue comes with practice and diligent daily effort. It is definitely easier with practice, and I've noticed that If I quit practicing it gets hard again. Sometimes I can't do it at all, and sometimes it happens so fast and fluidly that it is suprising. Their are many variables such as stress and bad days, where you just can't let go of certain issues that arise in the mind. So somedays are naturally harder than others. But I'd have to say, that like anything practice makes it easier.

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ralphm
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2003, 01:58:25 »

don't know the answer to your 2nd and 3rd questions, but your first one about trance/alertness is more interesting, cause i find that in meditation i usually go in one of those directions-one is hyper alert, aware of energy flowing through my body/energy body, the other is the hazy/trance state, with little memory of where i have been. I think they are both valid states and interesting places to explore.

 
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2003, 01:58:25 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Blossom
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2003, 12:09:02 »

I have several comments:  

It seems that the chattering mind only causes the projector (me) to fall asleep.
but, when i do meditate, and eventually "come out" of meditation, i dont usually remember the process from start to finish, the actual meditation part is hazy.


On the above, I believe the reason we have a chattering mind when we lay down is SO we can fall asleep.  That is what we are trying to prevent with meditation..  You don't remember the process because you have fell asleep.  What you are trying to accomplish is to let the chattering go while maintaining alertness.   A quiet mind while being awake.  IT doesn't come easy but is well worth the effort..  The first time it happens, you will know.

****Is it possible to project whilst the mind chatters away, or MUST the mind be still?Huh ******

I say no.. at least probably not unless you are a master and not a novice.

*****Does the chasm between a still mind and chattering mind become closer the more someone meditates?Huh****

Yes it does..  When you learn this process, you will actually start seeing this happen and realize it.  It takes a while at first but it does get easier..

Good luck..
Blossom

 
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Tisha
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2003, 17:05:43 »

Meditation is SO important . . . but not because it "leads to OBE" - - - although the two are related  - - - let me try to explain . . .

For one, as long as your mind is chattering away, you are not focusing on the task at hand  (the task, I presume, being OBE).  Your internal mutterings about your love life, your bills, your job, etc are very distracting, bleed your energy overall, and interfere with your productivity in general - - - even in your waking life.  Meditation helps you FOCUS that energy, so you don't fritter it away.  You NEED that energy if you are going to engage in otherworldy pursuits.

Another thing meditation can do is make you forget your body and your surroundings.  This is one critical step to OBE - - - but just one.  Your "haziness" attests to this fact, yes?  I think you have trouble remembering some of it because your mind habitually "shuts off" during sleep, and meditation is akin to sleep.  Your task, therefore, is to stay AWARE during these meditations, while losing the ordinary realm.  The only way to achieve this tricky state is practice, practice, practice.

Meditation can also help you "visualize."  Visualization can sometimes help a person achieve OBE.

Meditation helps you sit still for long periods of time.  Also very important to OBE.

Meditation will clear your mind so that when you DO get on the Astral, you won't be sent into an "emotional loop," as is often described by Frank.  I think it's possible to project while engaged in mental chatter, but the resulting experience is probably more dream-like than obe-like.

So, in conclusion, meditation is the daily practice that helps you flex your mental muscle.  But it's your mind that brings you to OBE, not the meditation itself.  Am I making sense?  I hope so!


Tisha

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Leviiathan
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2003, 19:01:07 »

hello to the people Cheesy

Hello to you too.

recently i am beggining to REALLY understand meditation, trouble is i cant maintain a silent mind for too long.

Meditation is nothing more than self-induced hypnosis, which in basic context is nothing more than bringing about an altered state of mind. There are several in between the waking states of everyday focus and the state of brain activity in which you experience during sleep. The level of brainwave activity is also measured in hertz (ranging from 20 - 0). Each level of brainwaves resides in a certain frequency and it is possible, through the wonderful power of sound audio, to induce these states.

Keep in mind that each person is different and ultimately, their willingness to comply and subject themselves will determine their rate of success. A person with a strong, natural subconscious resistence (to conditioning) will take a long time (for me, it has been 1 and a half months) to truly get used to it and notice significant results. I would say that that progress is first noticed in early usage, but usage over an extended period of time will lead to more fulfilling results (the blank-outs I experience now began as a rare treat and are now a common occurance).

Resources include Brainwave Generator (I have a few suggestions for which bw plugins to use), and also hemi-sync audio (which can be downloaded off Kazaa). Since I have some on my comp, I might be able to upload some. Dane Spotts is a wonderful author whose meditation files last about 30 minutes each (and they loop back to the beginning without disrupting the meditation session and without you noticing).

when i have meditated, i have noticed sooner or later that i begin to experience hypnogogic sounds.

When one meditates, the fruits of their practices often vary. I have had hypnogogic sounds before. If you are like me, pay attention to them and study them, even if it disrupts your session a bit, entirely out of interest. Or rather, I suggest you first get used to them, and then learn to observe them in a completely passive state (that is, you can let them occur without disrupting your meditation session). I've heard phones ringing, voices, common day sounds. It's nothing special. They tend to fade in and out (like you yourself are experiencing a black-out of consciousness). If you learn to observe them, you will have a fun and interesting experience. Try to even make a few happen yourself. Wink Playing around with them is not the key to progressing (other than familiarizing with these weird and strange things and getting used to them).

it seems that when i do this i slowly focus my attention inside hence escape the material world.

The purpose of meditation is to draw your awareness into yourself. You do not actually go into yourself at all, but rather (in another way of seeing it), minimize the environment around you so that your awareness concerns the present state you are in. This can be achieved in many ways, particularly by means of being passive and allowing yourself to drift. You will read about a lot of methods (both direct and indirect). Don't be concerned about wasting time since meditation (and AP) are not developed in any sort of time frame. They are merely obtained in practice. Anyway, I gotta switch over to another computer. I'll finish this up later.

 
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2003, 19:01:07 »



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rodentmouse
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2003, 19:37:56 »

thanks  for the comments  good people  Cheesy

the question    ...........

*****Does the chasm between a still mind and chattering mind become closer the more someone meditates?Huh****

was a bit  vague....   ill  try and say what i really meant.


does  the  mental  state  you acheive  when  meditating  slowly leak  into your normal waking life???    

i mean  the  real  "you"   can only be experienced when meditaing,   does this  real  "you"   meld  into  the   normal   waking  "you"   the more you meditate,   to create a generally more aware  person???

i  want  to  maintain  a meditative  state  in  my waking day,   but  i   can  only do it during  my OBE  training sessions.




 
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2003, 23:28:32 »

ok heres a question .. to meditate , is it simply to relax and keep the mind as still and thoughtless as possible for as long as you can hold it and then youll get into this trance state or what ?



Heres another good question .. is it possible to sit in a chair with no neck support , ( head basically upright like i'm looking at my comp right now ) , eyes closed and hands in my lap and actually project after I get into some degree of trance? Can someone reach the mind awake/body asleep state like that?


Since I fall asleep too often when I'm in the bed , I might try the chair from now on .. its a pain in my arse to keep falling asleep like this .. ever since I got 4 days in a row of successfull experiences , I havent been able to get it since then and I want it so bad!

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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2003, 11:37:14 »

rodentmouse Speaking for myself, I can say it does. To what extent is somewhat up to the method used in meditation and yourself.
I tend to revert to a meditative state, semi-trance almost, when I'm not specificaly concentrating on doing anything.

Now as to what kind of awareness this creates is an interesting question. I'm not sure how to describe myself really since the state of awareness is somewhat introverted in my case. But it does give your intuition much opportunities to help than what people usually have.

Do be a bit judicious though to avoid appearing all zonked out during the day. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

2cents & L&L
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kifyre
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2003, 14:02:10 »

Ok, I'll admit up front I only had time to skim the above posts; please bear with me. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

In my current understanding, meditation (among many of the benefits mentioned above) accelerates the evolution of your consciousness. It strengthens your consciousness so you can be aware of realms beyond the physical. Therefore, it is crucial for clairvoyant abilities, obe, etc. (Or, your consciousness simply develops naturally as you directly attempt these abilities.) I think of meditation as "weightlifting" for my consciousness, in a gentle, responsible way, of course.

When rodentmouse says he gets hazy during meditation, this is a sign of progress. He is accessing advanced states that he cannot yet sustain consciousness within. As he develops, he will remain aware within these states.

I imagine that, as states of consciousness enfolding the ego become available, that resting within those states quiets the mind naturally. (But I don't know yet for sure.)

This understanding has been developed primarily from One Taste by Ken Wilber as it correlates with my sketchy experience and other readings.

All the best,

Mark

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Leviiathan
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2003, 20:22:14 »

RodentMouse:
Alright, I'm finishing up my original reply. You might also want to read what I have written in the topic directed toward "Frank and any other experienced OoBer". It might englighten you a bit more on some of the common topics addressed on these forums. Hell, maybe I should make a page and link people to it when they need help.

- - - - - - - -
it seems that when i do this i slowly focus my attention inside hence escape the material world.

I'll begin where I left off. As you focus your attention inside, your awareness is dimming. By dimming, I mean that it is gradually reducing itself to the point of obscurity. A more objective reality on this is that your brain wave activity is being reduced. As it is reduced, your brain waves transcend the states (Alpha, Beta, Delta, Gamma). I should probably use terms such as Type 1, Type 2, Type 3, and Type 4 states since the terminology on Robert's treastie (naming them) is a bit crude and off (Beta, Alpha, Theta) not only from the greek alphabet, but also off from the psycology textbooks (as my university pal points out). As you transcend the states, your awareness naturally moves away from your external conditions and into yourself.

Wake = as you are now

Type 1 = minor-detachment from surroundings (you are still aware of your body. Perhaps you can still feel it. One can experience Type 1 mentally (concentrating on something, hence you are drawn into it), or physically (light - deep relaxation), or even together as one state

Type 2 = I would believe this to be trance. Between Type 1 and Type 2 is the vertigo state (that is, you feel disoriented, out of place, perhaps you feel like you are rotating around, dizzy, etc). Type 2 is a trance, which is where your body should be physically asleep. I've hit the vertigo/falling state of trance before and my body has not been physically asleep (then again, I have a hard time getting in there, and when I do, it is not for a prolonged period of time).

Type 3 = Robert's acclaimed deep-trance state. Symptoms of it (everything feeling slow, time slowing down incredibly, and even the iciness can be felt in Type 2, or even inbetween Type 1 and Type 2). The defining points of this state, as told to me by another friend of mine, are that you are physically paralyzed (you cannot move because your body has disabled this function), you are not aware of your surroundings, and you cannot hear anything around you.

Type 4 = A Dream state I guess, or anything in between Type 3 that is not a dream state.

I guess this part didn't really need to be answered. You stated the obvious, but I felt like adding in some fine points to enlighten you on some things.


is this what robert means when he says you must tame the mind.

Most of the guides are vague in telling someone how to go about this. "Keeping a clear...", "Calming the...", "Minimizing...", it's all very vague and indescript when you think about it. Since most authors cannot properly explain how this is done, they add in "You have to do it yourself, experiment, see what I mean."

The closest and most effective means (at present) I can do at elaborating on this is to point out two things:

1) While you can keep your mind calm, the key to falling to having the body fall asleep (this is universal with sleep, astral projection, and meditation) is to occupy the mind with a 2-part simple task. It can be anything, and if you look at all the exercises (Rope, breathing awareness), each is a 2 part process that repeats itself. While no technique is universal, the process in how it works is indeed universal. Occupy the mind with a 2-part simple task.

2) Also observe how your body falls asleep and what conditions are needed for it. One does not simply clear his mind into a blank space. That is not well-placed advice. The body and mind must be relaxed, and the mind itself must be occupied with something simple. The body will fall asleep, and the mind will then begin to wander on its own into a dream scenario. That's how it works. It's that simple.

It seems that the chattering mind only causes the projector (me) to fall asleep.

The subject gets complicated on what one defines as "chatter". What you are looking to do is throw yourself into a passive state, one where things will not distract you. Vibrations, hypnogogic imagery and sounds, and even surface thoughts will be at your mercy if you can master this area. If you find you are getting discouraged, phasing might be up your alley. Phasing (the process of spacing out over a meditation session, just letting the body relax, mind relax) has managed to develop improved abilities of focus. In this case, I use hemi-sync and/or brain wave generator as a means of assisting me. It doesn't work at first, but over time (as it conditions the mind), it begins to have noticable effects Wink

but, when i do meditate, and eventually "come out" of meditation, i dont usually remember the process from start to finish, the actual meditation part is hazy.

But yet you remember the process as it is happening? This happens to me as well. In fact, the phasing out process has often led me to experience time-gaps. I would not say that I have fallen asleep, but I will say that I have somehow fallen unconscious. Whatever the case, I fall into and out of these time gaps without even realizing it. I guess this happens when my alertness drops completely without knowing it. When I become alert again, I realize that time has flied by in what seemed like 1 or 2 minutes. Odd, I will add.

SO, is this hazyness/ trance what meditation IS??? or are we supposed to be alert for the whole process.

Two words: Alertness and awareness. You are trying to keep your awareness, while minimizing your alertness. I know I say that I minimize my awareness (which is true because I become less aware of my surroundings, and self. My attention does not dwell on it as much although it it is still there). Alertness is what causes you to dwell on things, dwell on the areas around you. Because you are alert, you THINK! because you THINK, you are hence distracted. The haziness/trance is not necessarily a way of summing up meditation in a nutshell. These things, however, are aspects of meditation that are notably good progress in it.

Remember this philosophy, and you shall succeed: mind awake, body asleep. When you experiment, and think about it, you will come to understand how this very thing answers many problems that prevent people from progressing.

****Is it possible to project whilst the mind chatters away, or MUST the mind be still?Huh ******

I am not sure. I have never projected. I have come close, and I do know that trance (type II state) is not essential to obtaining vibrations. "Mind Awake, Body Asleep". That is trance. To project, it is necessary to be in trance (because your body will not be able to react to your attempts to force your awareness outside of itself). The other aspect of projection (aside from trance) is to use pressure on your astral body to cause a separation. This is obtained through widely-acclaimed techniques, such as ROPE.

As for your concern, your insecurity on this issue is best amended by practice. Do a trial and error process and come to the conclusion yourself. Even after you have made a conclusion, realize that even the conclusion can be changed. Do I think that one can project with surface level thoughts running about on their mind? No, I do not. They are just distractions that waste your focus (not energy... focus). With projection, you must have compete focus. 99.9% focus will not get you a projection. Realize the importance of this and train yourself well to suit. Projection is not easy. It is a hard disciple that is difficult to master.

i ask this now because ive only recently learned how to properly meditate, even briefly, but i am eager to explore it and understand it, so far i have felt the oneness when meditating, and felt the real me- a consiouss being.

Don't just train yourself. Experience. By doing so, you will enlighten your horizons and become wise on many subjects relating to meditation. Practice, practice, practice! There are many, many, many interesting aspects of meditation that you will find most people do not address (admit to, or rather, go into detail about). Whatever you experience, try to understand it, figure out how it relates to (be it promote or hinder) your meditation development. If you study the countless factors that ultimately affect you as a meditation practitioner, you will come to understand how to improve upon yourself.

Robert Bruce has done this exact thing, but more with AP than with getting there. His treastie on the dynamics (behind things) is what has drawn lots of attention to himself and made him famous.

I feel a lot more consiouss when meditating, and i know that when i break meditation, i will once again be engulfed in my egos.....

Your ego being your consciousness? Also realize that as you practice to train your mind, you'll begin to experience a certain calmness in your mind on a regular basis. It is a matter of conditioning your mind. Keeping it calm is a matter of keeping it relaxed (and to an extent devoid of surface thoughts).
Right now I am half-tired, (but alert), so my mind is relaxed.

*****Does the chasm between a still mind and chattering mind become closer the more someone meditates?Huh****

Yes, and you'll find that your mind will naturally stay this way in real life. One can still think, but your mind will feel more calm nontheless.


could someone experienced answer my 2 questions, recently, i have been talking to people who seem to regurgitate what they have read in books.


I point out theory, but most of my advice is based on what I have experienced as a person. I am frustrated entirely by this same thing, or the inability for people to relate to the problems I've come across. In any case, meditation and AP is an individual process. You will have to learn to become not just a student to your progress, but also a teacher as well in this respect.

 
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rodentmouse
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2003, 19:37:34 »

thank  you  for  that  leviathan.

what  projection tecnique   do you use???

do  you need  to be able to meditate to use it???

are there any tecniqes that dont involve meditation???


i realised  through my experience that  being able to meditate is a key  skill  I  need to  be able to do,  that is why i failed rope  so much-   rope involves a degree of meditation/  concentration-    its  the underlying causes of failure im  working on now.

 
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2003, 02:06:20 »

I've never had a projection experience before.

My meditation sessions involve the following:

Focus-training (this occurs through mostly through the exercises)
Tactice-Image-development (this occurs all of the following)

Relaxation-development
Phasing (sometimes)
Trance (I have trouble with this)
ROPE Training (yes, I climb ROPE often, I consider this training, even when I do try to project).

Affirmations (I've begun these yesterday and say the following frequently, even while meditating: "I am projecting," or "I am going to project", or "I am separating from my body," or all of these together over and over again). Even if they have no subconscious effect or not, they serve to motivate the practice even further.

Chakra-Meditation (I began openly doing energy work yesterday and hope to progress on this. I've haven't done chakra/energy work for years).

So as you can see, it's a mixed up experience.
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Patty
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2003, 03:03:43 »

Rodentmouse:

Smiley Smiley Smiley

You are wonderful.

The way that meditation is not what you expected ---- is similar to  the way that reducing the chasm (allowing the knowledge of self during normal daily grind) manifests.

It may not be what you envision it will be, but one day you will realize that it is happening in an unexpected way.

(Ex, it is currently easy for me to remember to breathe and focus on breath frequently during the day. The act of focusing on breath reminds me of what I experience during meditation.  As recently as a few months or a year ago, remembering to periodically focus awareness on breath as a matter of course - was very challenging. It was a chasm between one state of awareness and the other.)

I absolutely love your posts. You strike me as so honest and forthright and wonderful, and it is clear that you are determined, committed, and making consistent progress, growth.
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rodentmouse
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2003, 17:39:59 »

wow  thanks  patty,  that  was   incredibly  uplifting to  hear  such kind words Cheesy

i  have  noticed patty  that  since i   realised what meditation was, i  have  become a lot  more calm  in  my waking life-   petty  insignificant  issues dont   bother me at all.   Or  if i do  get stressed  (E.g.  today  on the bus)  i  can  focus on  my breath  and "escape"   i guess.

I   intuit that  this is one of the benefits  of  meditation-   it  tells me  that  the chasm  between  my "self"  and  David (normal me)
is  getting  smaller-   can you clarify this???
   even  though i think  its true,  it  feels better  if  someone  clarifies it.



Leviiathan-   could  you explain  Phasing-   i have no idea what it is  and  ive read the posts  in the astral consiosness section  but  they assumed  that  people  already knew what it was.-  i  must  have missed something somewhere.

 
and,   you  say  you have trouble  with  trance,   but  you  CAN meditate-   i  thought they were pretty much the same thing-   if  not,   what is the difference???

thanks!


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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2003, 19:11:35 »

Hi.

We all come to these sorts of questions from a unique/individual perspective. I am currently of the opinion that life is a process of individuation, each of us individuates into our own unique self.

For example, in my perception of self and existence, there is not a lot of room (or experience with) "negative entities." I don't really believe in them. They aren't in my landscape. But they ARE in other people's experience. I don't know how to reconcile this except to think that perhaps we each have our own path to growth, and my best path doesn't (currently) involve "negatives."

A possible conclusion of this perspective is that I can't answer specifics of your question for you. But your ongoing self discovery is obvious!  Smiley

That being said and for what it is worth, your observations are consistent with my own experience. But also, for what it is worth, I personally believe that one of the major contributors to personal growth is precisely the sort of tension that you see between "David" and your sense of more pure conscious awareness. (I personally believe that tension between any two ... umm.... opposites? can contribute a lot to growth.) So in my opinion, we don't benefit from eliminating one or the other. Maintaining awareness and dynamic balance between two discrete states (awareness of self vs daily David) in my opinion is more likely to persist, and more valuable, than somehow 'merging' the two states into one (or abolishing one state in favor of the other.)

Finally, my views are simply my views. I hope this post does not sound like I am trying to impose what is currently working for me, on anyone else.
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2003, 21:06:54 »

It depends on what you are talking about. From what I have read, I'd say that someone who has never meditated or heard about astral projection is more likely to have an out-of-body experience. Accidents, surgery, torture, illness, and so on are common stories in books on astral projection. Then there are near-death experiences. It becomes a different situation when we talk about knowing what to expect and choosing to go about it consciously. Then meditation and study become important. It is not necessary to take an entirely mental approach, but it is common to think that it does. It is possible to support a clear, sharp mind through exercise, good diet, posture, breathing well, and a physical discipline involving energy. Yoga, tai chi, chi kung, and so on. There are probably exercises like this from other cultures, but I cannot think of them. It seems I have a bias in my studies. The nice thing is that if you meditate and take care of your body you will get good results even while you wait for eventual success with projection.
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2003, 07:18:53 »

i think I know why its difficult to concentrate (ie the chatter box), the chatterbox is the emotional box I like to call it if you attach many emotions of your daily activity to it then it'll end up popping in your mind more frequently later on in the day like worries or concerns, I think if one can control ones emotions then you can reduce the chatter box but that is only with practice but you can also develope your silencing so you can shut down the chatterbox at will but that is with practice some practice things to do is to be aware that you are leaving from the focus and immediately come back or try breath awareness/feeling the body that sort of helps stop or slow down the chatterbox.  I see experts in obe and such they always comment that how relaxed they are and nothing in the day bothers them because they trained their mind to never show much emotion to the daily activities of life but I guess center it more towards their meditation instead obviously you center your emotions to your meditation more than anything else then obviously you will have a big advantage.  Like in joseph murphy's book "power of subconscious mind" what you feel you attract what you imagine you become.
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Tom
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2003, 12:29:16 »

Blocked energy seems to play a large role in the internal dialogue, especially along the spine. Excess tension actually compresses the spine and releasing some of this tension has helped a lot. Actually, it has helped more with avoiding tension headaches. The alexander technique is a good western method. I just forgot about it earlier because I see it as a component of yoga and tai chi.
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Phlux
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2003, 06:45:30 »


 
quote:
could someone experienced answer my 2 questions, recently, i have been talking to people who seem to regurgitate what they have read in books


Hi Mouse,
 Good thought behind your question. I'd like to point out that there is much confusion about what real meditation is. Often the term "meditation" is used to refer to a trance. While a trance-like state can be gained while in meditation, meditation is not trance. Nor should trance be the goal, or "way" of your meditation.

Trance is a taming of the body "awareness", Meditation is becoming aware. Of what? You!



I'd like to quote Browning's Paracelsus.

"Truth is within ourselves; it takes no rise
From outward things, whate'er you may believe.
There is an inmost center in us all,
Where truth abides in fullness; all around,
Wall upon wall, the gross flesh hems it in,
This perfect, clear perception, which is Truth.
A baffling and perverted carnal mesh binds it,
And makes all error.
And to KNOW
Rather consists in opening out a way
Whence the imprisoned splendour may escape
Than in effecting entry for a light
Supposed to be without."




Id just like to give you some encouragement with your current way of meditation. By what you describe, sounds like your very well on the right path. Well done!

 
quote:
I intuit that this is one of the benefits of meditation- it tells me that the chasm between my "self" and David (normal me)
is getting smaller- can you clarify this???
even though i think its true, it feels better if someone clarifies it



What can you look foward to? Simply put, "YOU". You can look forward to You. You will eventually burn away all things, until you're all thats left. Quite a beautiful thing really. With practice, that feeling you get, will greatly increase. You're well on your way to what some call a "buddhic mind". Sometimes you will feel "alienated" to society. But perhaps thats a blessing.

As a side note, you can look foward to lucid dreaming.

Phlux


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Leviiathan
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2003, 18:20:26 »

Have you ever heard of the old mathematical philosophy: a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square?

It's the same thing here: trance is a form of meditation, but meditation is not a form of trance.

To understand the reason, we must explore the very difference between their natures.

Meditation is the practice of relaxing the mind, body, and attempting to achieve a deeper state of consciousness.

Trance is that achieved state.

A person can attempt to AP without achieving Trance! However, they will not be able to project if they are not in trance.

What is trance?
Trance is where your body is asleep, but your mind is awake.

There are many different techniques involved for achieving this ideal state. On the surface level, they are all different, but on the fundamental level, they are all very alike. This is because they attempt, for the most part, to reduce your level of brain activity into the lower states. As this happens, your awareness dims and you begin to achieve a physically (and mentally) state of being sedated.

At this state, I feel very de-attached from my body. It feels very heavy, limp, and numb (namely, I cannot feel anything). The same goes for my mind. My awareness is not just dim, my thinking process has entirely slowed down to the point where I cannot contemplate or get worked up by surface level thoughts. If I choose to project at this point, any response my muscles give is very, very, very minimal. Unfortunately, I can get this far and still not experience vertigo of any sort.

Phasing is a process that helps me achieve this state. I simply prepare my body with a relaxation process (tensing up), stretch my muscles (to help even more ~ this is optional), maybe take a hot shower before hand, lay down and under some light sheets. I'll often put some headphones on and let a hemi-sync play in the background. At that point, I'll focus my attention to my 3rd eye, and try and concentrate on my breathing. Since I've been doing this for a while, keeping a clear head is no problem for me. I would say I developed this talent in attempting to meditate (so naturally, it came as I progressed).

What I do next is to try and crunch my focus. It's easier said than done, I know, but if you want to know what I mean, study the way you fall asleep. Next time you lay down, study what you do when you try and fall asleep.

Here's what I've learned: you lay down, get comfortable (for me, it can be on the side), and I somehow just blank my mind and keep it clear. This happens naturally with everyone, to the extent where they don't even realize what they're doing. If you can familiarize yourself with this, then you've brought yourself a good step into understanding what you need to do.

This process of keeping the mind clear (crunched, stupidified), is the fundamental beginnings to phasing. Phasing is simply an alternative to direct AP, where you effortlessly transcend from the waking state to the state of being AP. It's a process that involves placing your consciousness into different "focus" states. You've read the theory on trance. Phasing is the exact same thing, only in this case we're dealing with the states of awareness in between the Waking state and the state of being Astral Projected.

During my meditation sessions, I tend to do all the above, but also experiment as well. With a hemi-sync playing in the background, I'll try to induce a trance state (the 2-step process of falling, climbing a ladder down), use tactile-imaging to relax myself, focus on breathing, etc. Sometimes I'll simply let myself drift off. With each breath, I try to feel myself getting heavier. Often that works. After about 1/2 hour, I'm usually set, and from there, I decide to either passively raise my awareness (feel it rising up above my body), or climb ROPE.

I can manage to climb ROPE, but the primary thing stopping me is muscle reflex (muscles reacting). For me, this occurs in the back and the theighs (and sometimes) the arms. At I'd try and climb ROPE, I'd feel the effect of loosening in the feet, arms, even the body. I'd then begin to feel a sort of odd presure, and then I'd begin to enter a light vibe state. A long time has passed since then and since I began to take notice / suspect this to me muscle reflex, I've been able to prevent myself from wasting time and energy in a failed projection attempt. To this day I STILL am uncertain as to what counts as authentic pressure sensations, loosenings, and what accounts as muscle-reflex disguised in the form of pressure, loosenings. The panacea for this is that I need to acheive a sedated/deep state of body/mental relaxation. Ultimately, I still have yet to differentiate the two entirely.

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rodentmouse
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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2003, 22:26:25 »

hello to the people Cheesy
 
recently  i am  beggining  to  REALLY   understand meditation,   trouble is i cant maintain a silent mind for too long.

when  i have meditated,  i have noticed sooner or later that i begin to   experience  hypnogogic sounds.

it seems  that  when i do this i  slowly  focus my attention  inside  hence  escape the material world.

is  this  what robert means when he says   you must tame the mind.  
It seems  that the chattering mind only  causes the projector (me)  to fall asleep.

but,  when i do meditate,  and  eventually  "come out"  of meditation,   i dont usually remember the process from start  to finish,   the actual meditation part is hazy.

SO,    is  this hazyness/  trance  what meditation  IS???   or  are we supposed  to  be alert for the whole process.

anyway...

****Is  it possible  to project  whilst  the mind chatters away,  or MUST  the mind be still?Huh ******


i  ask this now because ive only recently learned how to properly meditate,  even briefly,  but  i am eager to  explore it and understand it,   so far i  have felt the oneness   when meditating,   and felt the real me-  a consiouss  being.

i  feel a lot  more consiouss when meditating,  and i know that when i break meditation,   i will once again be engulfed in my egos.....

*****Does   the  chasm  between  a still mind and chattering mind become  closer  the more someone meditates?Huh****

i  am   not  who i thought i have been  all my life when i meditate,  i am  just  consiousness.

could someone experienced answer my 2 questions,   recently, i have been  talking to people  who seem to regurgitate  what they have read in books.

thank you!


 






 
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