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Author Topic: Mental Projections Vs Astral Projections and such  (Read 6597 times)
SpectralDragon
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« on: October 30, 2004, 21:31:47 »

Now, I am not really talking about RB's definition of Mental Projection, but rather the way Franz Bardon describes it. A few Key differences in
here:
http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Warning.html
And also here:
http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Wandering2.html

While that topic pretty much covers most of what I wanted to, there are a few things I wanted to add.

A mental projection can be described as an experience where you are more so astral "viewing" or "remotely viewing" the astral. Keep in mind, however, that this does not keep you from chatting with astral individuals or manipulating things in the astral. This way of projection is much less intense than a real projection.

In a real projection, as described in that article, you are doing one of two things: you are creating an astral double, or you are seperating your astral body from your physical body. The idea of both is to recreate what is known as the Near Death Experience, often reffered to as NDE for short. The NDE is the most intense form of projection and the one that is more of a life and belief changing experience than other projections. For this reason, it is observed and attempted to be re-created.

For those of you who have read Bardon's excellent book, Initiation into hermetics, he gives a more in-depth explanation on NDE, as does Robert Bruce in his (also) excellent book: Astral Dynamics.

Here is the main difference as concerns most of the individuals who are reading this: the amount of training time required for each mental projection, and astral projection.

Bruce does not really go into technique on mental projection as far as I could tell. Mental projection is covered a bit before astral projection is in bardon's system. Bardon's system is a complete magick system and as such it can take decades before you even touch astral projection, keeping in mind however that his form of projection is closer to the NDE and as such much more powerfull.

Using Bruce's system, an individual can project in as little as a week (keep in mind though his program is supposed to be 90 days) This form of projection is not as powerfull, but still benificial.

In a new system I am developing, Projection occurs after the individual is able to get into various types of trance states he is able to "bump his awareness" out of his body, or go so deep into his mental structure that he suddenly finds himself in the mental plane. (When I did this, it was a fairly powerfull form of projection.) A un-edited and not-so-indepth version of this guide can be found here: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14456

Then there is the matter of perception using each.

Using Bardon's way of projection, while taking years of practice, is the best way to percieve the astral in the best way. Keep in mind that the astral is subject to interpretation through our belief system and as such what you see is sometimes not always what is going on. A clear mind with balanced emotions is needed to interpret the astral, mental, focus planes, or however you label the existences.

Bruce's methods are less stable in this in that he does not require a balancing of emotions. This does not make his way of projection less able than Bardon's however. It is one thing I disagree with on the first of the above articles: eventually, under bruce's method, you will balance out your own emotions naturally: the astral simply does that to you over time. When this happens under bruce's methods you will find a big difference in the intensity of the projections.

In the method described in another post on this site, you are going into a projection from a special kind of trance state. Depending on the type of projection you are aiming for you will have a OBE similair to bruce's, or a powerfull projection into the mental plane with emotions temporarily balanced out. The second type of projection is quite advanced, however, and I have heard reports of individuals trying this method that it is quite difficult to get in that deep of a trance.
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clandestino
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2004, 05:13:57 »

Hi Spectraldragon, great post ! I hope you don't mind me moving it into "OBE discussions".

Kind regards,
Mark
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2004, 05:13:57 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2004, 06:29:13 »

Quote from: clandestino
Hi Spectraldragon, great post ! I hope you don't mind me moving it into "OBE discussions".

Kind regards,
Mark


Yeah, I wasn't sure where to put this so I kinda just put it into the "catch all." It's not really about technique or ways to project or even OBE huh
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LordoftheBunnies
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2004, 19:16:06 »

This method, also called Astral Transference, is discussed on pages 414-419 of Robert's new book Mastering Astral Projection.  What I find interesting is the image on page 417, as it looks like a Tattwa card.  In some of the magical traditions, tattwa cards are used to train concentration and mental project by imagining oneself going through the card.  Is this anything similar?

Also, I've noticed that this site discusses something similar to mental projection as well.  www.afterlife-knowledge.com
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astralspinner
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2004, 16:25:26 »

Having recently reached the point where I can enter trance deep enough to get images whilst remaining lucid, I've been reading about "phasing" in the archives.

Is this the same thing, or yet another method for getting yourself to the Planes?

If it IS different, in what way(s)?
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2004, 16:25:26 »



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daem0n
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2004, 15:49:08 »

well, being me i bit the other end, and started mentally projecting without astral projecting, my thoughts:
in natural way only part of the mental body is separated, some of it stays in the body to govern living, handy Smiley
sensations are nowhere to be found, it is more of watching a movie and still interacting with everything
everyone looks like clouds or orbs, no personal view of themselves
essential meaning, hmmm, no way to describe it
almost no energy required, ultra-fast, below one second
movement MUCH faster than astral body, not mentioning resistance
i was wondering why i can't see details, essential meaning explains it
i see, rather feel, hard to describe, persons, a bit like in alex gray pictures, i see their energy body and matrix, the same with non-physical entities
imagination tends to fill in essential meaning with some physical form
living things stand out, also conscious things stand out
objectivity can be a subject, until you get the hang of it
hmm, that's all
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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2004, 04:50:20 »

Quote from: astralspinner
Having recently reached the point where I can enter trance deep enough to get images whilst remaining lucid, I've been reading about "phasing" in the archives.

Is this the same thing, or yet another method for getting yourself to the Planes?

If it IS different, in what way(s)?


Mental projection is simply projecting your awareness without going into your astral body. Phasing is a method of astral projection. (Actuall Astral Projection)

Daemon: I can see distinct astral bodies and get feelings when I mental project, though granted it's not as distinct or strong as when I actually project.
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daem0n
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2004, 07:28:41 »

i guess it's a matter of experience
hmmm, i cannot describe it properly
it is something of a feeling and seeing, not sensations like in physical
do you completely separate mental body ?
well, things come out in practise, thank you, this clears things a bit
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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2004, 13:13:28 »

Quote from: daem0n
i guess it's a matter of experience
hmmm, i cannot describe it properly
it is something of a feeling and seeing, not sensations like in physical
do you completely separate mental body ?
well, things come out in practise, thank you, this clears things a bit


My apolagies for the long wait.

Seperation of mental body and physical body sometimes and sometimes does not occur in mental projection. As stated before it's more of a type of remote viewing. If the mental body is sepereated then yes sensation does occur.
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Xetrov
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2004, 00:36:13 »

Hello SpectralDragon,

I just recently read your post and have been reading up on a lot of the articles posted by Rawn Clark as you linked some of them. I actually read through all his comments on step 1 to 10. Pretty interesting material i should say, and the funny thing for me is, that it is very close to what i personally believe is the 'truth' about OBE, NDE, AP and LD. The problem i initially had with explaining my viewpoints (in that damned article i wrote lol), was that i wasn't familiar with the terms used here. Reading Clarks comments helped me a lot with that i must say. I will now give you my comments and views on your post, keeping in mind that i will try to argue for my way of seeing things. I might be critical, but please don't take that as a personal insult (something i never seek to do) but rather as a point for further discussion.
Quote from: SpectralDragon

In a real projection, as described in that article, you are doing one of two things: you are creating an astral double, or you are seperating your astral body from your physical body. The idea of both is to recreate what is known as the Near Death Experience

This isn't entirely so. Clark clearly states that if you approach OBE by creating an astral double (as in RB's OBE technique), you are not going into NDE at all. In fact, he states that the 'only' thing you explore most of the time here is your psyche or mental space; “...[in] Robert's OBE ... primarily the astral substance adhering to the person's own psyche is explored” (Clark)... but let's continue with what you said:
Quote from: SpectralDragon

Bruce does not really go into technique on mental projection as far as I could tell. Mental projection is covered a bit before astral projection is in bardon's system. Bardon's system is a complete magick system and as such it can take decades before you even touch astral projection, keeping in mind however that his form of projection is closer to the NDE and as such much more powerfull.

Actually Bardon's astral projection is NDE. Clark also says that during such an event, the physical body is left behind, vulnerable to 'attack' or disturbance, so this makes it very dangerous. By the way, this NDE technique also differs a lot from the astral projection that Bruce describes. According to Clark, Bruce's astral projections or OBE's are not accompanied by one's astra-mental body (i would call that body 'the spirit') leaving the physical body, as is the case with NDE, so in Bruce's OBE technique the body isn't left empty, and thus it is totally different from NDE. You also say that “Bruce's methods are less stable in this in that he does not require a balancing of emotions”, Clark however explains this by the fact that you explore your own psyche, like in (lucid) dreams. Dreams and dream imagery are often unstable. Or as Clark states it, Bruce technique creates “subjective astral sensations”. Note that Clark states the term “astral” in this case, not because you are exploring the astral plane but because you are exploring within your astral self (using what Bruce calls a created energy body). So the energy body you feel is your astral body, which actually is a lot more easy to feel during a (lucid)dream because during sleep we are in better connection with it.

What Clark calls mental wandering or mental projecting, is what i would describe as an extremely advanced form of remote sensing (i named it AP in my article which created some unfortunate confusion). I described that as a technique whereby one expands their consciousness to include awareness of remote locations, persons, dimensions etc. I have not found in Clark's comments that this is a possibility to do from a LD (what Bruce calls OBE) too, but it is what i say happens when in an 'OBE' you actually perceive truthful information from a remote location.

Well these are just my thoughts on the matter, a nice day to you all  Smiley
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LordoftheBunnies
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2004, 01:11:38 »

Its probably a difference of degrees.  When you first start projecting, it might only be 20% real, with 80% emotional illusion, but gradually improve as times goes by and you get better.
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Leo Volont
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2004, 02:13:32 »

Quote from: LordoftheBunnies
Its probably a difference of degrees.  When you first start projecting, it might only be 20% real, with 80% emotional illusion, but gradually improve as times goes by and you get better.


"Better"?

Why is it necessarily "better" to strip the Picture of Reality of is Emotional Contents?

In waking reality, people are intent upon hiding their feelings and keeping secrets.  But once in the Astral all of these feelings and secrets are revealed by the glaring symbols that hoover within the Astral and Dream Scenes.  I would consider these things to be a plus.

You would strip the Astral in order that it conform to ordinary and secretive Reality.  It is to lose a complete Dimension, no?
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LordoftheBunnies
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2004, 04:09:07 »

Its not a matter of casting off or suppressing emotions, more so a matter of balancing them.  For instance, if I have lots of deep seated anger or insecurities from the past I haven't worked out, it can interfere with my ability to discern things accurately in day to day life.  And based on what I've read, its even worse in the astral plane since it responds to emotion so readily.
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Xetrov
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2004, 22:26:52 »

Quote from: LordoftheBunnies
Its probably a difference of degrees.  When you first start projecting, it might only be 20% real, with 80% emotional illusion, but gradually improve as times goes by and you get better.


That's your personal opinion. Clark however (someone who has at least reached Bardon's step 9 after ages of training and experimenting) clearly states that the difference isn't one of degrees but of different ways of projecting. He describes using two different techniques to get totally different results. One is projecting inside your own mental landscape and the other is a NDE type of projecting into the astral.
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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2004, 04:14:11 »

Xetrov, you are quite misunderstanding the terminology here.

NDE=Near Death Experience.

A near death experience is something that occurs on the brink of ones death, like on a hospital bed. The goal of astral projection is to get as close to an NDE as possible, not actually cause an NDE as to do that you would have to be dying  shocked

Quote
Actually Bardon's astral projection is NDE.


Read it again, it's as close to an NDE as possible, but not an NDE. if you wish, I will quote directly from Franz Bardon's excellent book, initiation into hermetics, once my friend gives it back to me.

Quote
According to Clark, Bruce's astral projections or OBE's are not accompanied by one's astra-mental body (i would call that body 'the spirit') leaving the physical body, as is the case with NDE, so in Bruce's OBE technique the body isn't left empty, and thus it is totally different from NDE. You also say that “Bruce's methods are less stable in this in that he does not require a balancing of emotions”, Clark however explains this by the fact that you explore your own psyche, like in (lucid) dreams. Dreams and dream imagery are often unstable. Or as Clark states it, Bruce technique creates “subjective astral sensations”. Note that Clark states the term “astral” in this case, not because you are exploring the astral plane but because you are exploring within your astral self (using what Bruce calls a created energy body). So the energy body you feel is your astral body, which actually is a lot more easy to feel during a (lucid)dream because during sleep we are in better connection with it.


Again, neither of the techniques are NDE. However I would like to comment that this is speculation of Clarks and he even admits to such. I would also not simply throw bruce's techniques as exploring your psyche as internal imagery is quite a bit different of a technique than bruce's projection methods, and that in bruce's projection methods individuals have gained knowledge of things they should know nothing about.

I apoligize for the long wait, however I don't frequent these forums like I used to and I have been busy with my own and my writing.
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Xetrov
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« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2004, 22:09:44 »

SpectralDragon I am not misunderstanding anything, i was giving a different interpretation. Let me explain:

NDE means near death experience, pay attention to the word "near" which means, not quite yet. It can indeed happen when you are very ill or when you are in an accident or so, but there are also ways to initiate controlled NDE's without actually dying as the end result. The goal of this kind of Astral Projecting is to set your spirit temporally free from your body so you can witness events in the astral without restraints of the physical body. When you are done, you "simply" return to your body. So actually you are not projecting here but entirely in the astral. Ways to initiate these kinds of NDE-OBE's (which i cal 'real' OBE's as opposed to RB type OBE's where you are not initiating NDE) include the 'magic' astral wandering of Bardon, or going there from beyond deep sleep. Note that Clark writes about Bardon's astral wandering that the astra-mental body is set free of the physical body and that as a result the remaining body is a mere shell and prone to influences by others, so it is very dangerous and could result in you not being able to return to your body anymore and really die (as opposed to RB-type OBE which is completely harmless and is indeed not related to a NDE)
Quote from: SpectralDragon

Read it again, it's as close to an NDE as possible, but not an NDE. if you wish, I will quote directly from Franz Bardon's excellent book, initiation into hermetics, once my friend gives it back to me.

It is a matter of definition to call it NDE or not, if you say that the end result of NDE has to be death, then it is not NDE, but if you say, like me, that a controlled NDE is possible, you can call it NDE. I think my definition makes sense since it comes indeed as close to death as possible without actually dying, so you are Experiencing something Near Death after all.
Quote from: SpectralDragon

... I would like to comment that this is speculation of Clarks and he even admits to such. I would also not simply throw Bruce's techniques as exploring your psyche as internal imagery is quite a bit different of a technique than Bruce's projection methods, and that in Bruce's projection methods individuals have gained knowledge of things they should know nothing about.

Yes this is because in a RB type OBE you can gather (astral) remote information by ESP, so indeed it is not only internal imagery. And if you say that Clark is speculating, someone who has clearly undergone all the 9 if not close to 10 steps of preparation of Bardon (how else could he comment so well on them?), something which takes a very long time (probably dozens of years) to complete, how would you rate your own ideas? Not much better mere as speculation too i assume. Let's just say that at least Clark is not a newby and that his ideas make some decent sense (why else would you refer to him?). I would not say that the verdict must be that either of one is 100% right and the other not, I just meant to give my comments on how I think Clark sees astral wandering.

Cheers to you all,
Xetrov.
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Hannah b
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2004, 23:32:24 »

Quote
Also, I've noticed that this site discusses something similar to mental projection as well. www.afterlife-knowledge.com


I just finished a retrieval course by Bruce Moen (founder of that site)..
It was an amazing experience and opened up a whole new world to me..

The funny thing was, that during the first few days most of the people that have "real" OBE (including me) were totally surprised that what Mr.Moen is teaching something very similar, but much easier than traditional OBE...as he likes to say..." the hardest thing is believing, that you're actually doing it"..
It took me some time to realize that this is a mental projection..exactly as you all describe..(especially daemon's post)..

I finally understood that "we are spirits having a human experience" and the astral is not some far distanced place, where I have to practice one of the million methods for years, in order to visit it.
I also finally understand that  in order to perceive the non-physical, all I have to do is be open and well energetized (probably any technique will work)..and I'm out there..
I noticed that the more you are able to focus, the more you are able to perceive...( duh wink )
What I love about this method, is that there is no "correct " way of perceiving...the "amount" of things you see, hear or feel has nothing to do with the fact that you are actually doing it...imagination and intention plays a great role in this too...
I was always against labeling experiences, and now I have a proof that it's pointless.

Anyways... just wanted to add my 2-cents and thank Spectral Dragon for the great post.


All the best
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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2004, 04:27:41 »

Quote from: Xetrov
SpectralDragon I am not misunderstanding anything, i was giving a different interpretation. Let me explain:

NDE means near death experience, pay attention to the word "near" which means, not quite yet. It can indeed happen when you are very ill or when you are in an accident or so, but there are also ways to initiate controlled NDE's without actually dying as the end result. The goal of this kind of Astral Projecting is to set your spirit temporally free from your body so you can witness events in the astral without restraints of the physical body. When you are done, you "simply" return to your body. So actually you are not projecting here but entirely in the astral. Ways to initiate these kinds of NDE-OBE's (which i cal 'real' OBE's as opposed to RB type OBE's where you are not initiating NDE) include the 'magic' astral wandering of Bardon, or going there from beyond deep sleep. Note that Clark writes about Bardon's astral wandering that the astra-mental body is set free of the physical body and that as a result the remaining body is a mere shell and prone to influences by others, so it is very dangerous and could result in you not being able to return to your body anymore and really die (as opposed to RB-type OBE which is completely harmless and is indeed not related to a NDE)
Quote from: SpectralDragon

Read it again, it's as close to an NDE as possible, but not an NDE. if you wish, I will quote directly from Franz Bardon's excellent book, initiation into hermetics, once my friend gives it back to me.

It is a matter of definition to call it NDE or not, if you say that the end result of NDE has to be death, then it is not NDE, but if you say, like me, that a controlled NDE is possible, you can call it NDE. I think my definition makes sense since it comes indeed as close to death as possible without actually dying, so you are Experiencing something Near Death after all.
Quote from: SpectralDragon

... I would like to comment that this is speculation of Clarks and he even admits to such. I would also not simply throw Bruce's techniques as exploring your psyche as internal imagery is quite a bit different of a technique than Bruce's projection methods, and that in Bruce's projection methods individuals have gained knowledge of things they should know nothing about.

Yes this is because in a RB type OBE you can gather (astral) remote information by ESP, so indeed it is not only internal imagery. And if you say that Clark is speculating, someone who has clearly undergone all the 9 if not close to 10 steps of preparation of Bardon (how else could he comment so well on them?), something which takes a very long time (probably dozens of years) to complete, how would you rate your own ideas? Not much better mere as speculation too i assume. Let's just say that at least Clark is not a newby and that his ideas make some decent sense (why else would you refer to him?). I would not say that the verdict must be that either of one is 100% right and the other not, I just meant to give my comments on how I think Clark sees astral wandering.

Cheers to you all,
Xetrov.


The idea here, Xetrov, was not to make clark out as a fool or uninitiate, as he is definitely a very intelligent, enlightened, and understanding man, but to get you in the frame of mind that "this might be possible, OR this could be possible too." Nor am I bashing Clarks rather excellent articles. Experienced individuals such as clark do not think in terms of definites unless they know it as such based on experience. The idea of my posts was to point out that clarks ideas are not stated as definite, and that you should keep other possibilities in mind before dogmatically (and I don't say that to bash you, everyone does this to some degree or another,) jumping to his ideals and grabbing hold. I will admit that what I state as a speculation is in fact, simple speculation, and not the truth. No man can know every truth in the universe.

Quote
Yes this is because in a RB type OBE you can gather (astral) remote information by ESP


Take this a prime example of "jumping ahold of a certain belief," despite obvious statement that it is speculation. I believe the reason clark states this as speculation is because he, quite simply, does not project VIA bruce's method. As an individual who has tried both methods, I am stating that in my experiences (and other's experiences might be quite different, and thier views welcome,) the case that roberts techniques are mere introspection are not the case.

I would also like to add that in order for ESP to work, the individual's physical senses have to be in order. You are not fully aware of your physical body or the sensations of the physical body while in bruces OBE, thus this assumption is likely not correct.

On the subject of Near Death Experiences: I am quite aware of the meaning of the word. There are certain ways to bring your body close to dying, but if you are not doing so, it is not a near death experience. The word was first created to describe and name what individuals who have come back from a life and death situation are going through. Whether or not you think of the word as something different is something I really can't see as being a valid argument to your case.

By definition "death" is not something that can be recreated. AS stated before, and as you allready mentioned, there are ways to get into this state. They are not healthy, and they are quite dangerous, but they aren't what Clark is talking about either.

In Bardon's "recreation" of NDE, he describes it as being "as close to an NDE as possible, without actually being an NDE." Clark, thoughout his articles, describes the process similairly. This is thier view of NDE we are speaking of, so as stated before, I don't see how

My final point in this post's argument is this:
Quote
Clark also says that during such an event, the physical body is left behind, vulnerable to 'attack' or disturbance, so this makes it very dangerous.

Now, do you find it strange that in bardons "NDE," as you call it, you can get killed simply by somone touching your body, while in a real NDE, this does not occur? Think of the patient being operated upon on a table, all those parts of his body being touched, cut open. Him being placed on the stretcher... This is a real NDE. As clearly stated by both Clark and Bardon himself, the technique is not NDE itself, it's a "recreation" of it.
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Xetrov
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2004, 14:23:02 »

Hey SpectralDragon,

Yes i agree that all we can state here are mere ideas and that you can probably never be 100% sure of the workings of the universe. However you and I dont always put "I think such and such, and it might not be so" into our arguments (for example when I spoke of my ESP ideas and you in your final argument) for the simple reason that we should assume that we know its is "just" an idea, probably based of information and experiences, but ofcourse not 100% true per se. I also know ofcourse you did not mean to make a fool out of anyone. So let's not argue on this anymore.
Quote from: SpectralDragon

I would also like to add that in order for ESP to work, the individual's physical senses have to be in order. You are not fully aware of your physical body or the sensations of the physical body while in bruces OBE, thus this assumption is likely not correct.

That is your assumption. I say however that this is not needed and that ESP or remote sensing can be done from sleep/(lucid)dreams and Bruce type of OBE. This is something i think strongly i have experienced myself multiple times. Why would you need your working physical senses anyway to do ESP? What is the relation according to you between ESP and physical senses?
Quote from: SpectralDragon

Whether or not you think of the word as something different is something I really can't see as being a valid argument to your case.

In Bardon's "recreation" of NDE, he describes it as being "as close to an NDE as possible, without actually being an NDE." Clark, thoughout his articles, describes the process similairly. This is thier view of NDE we are speaking o

Ok fine, but the difference was only one (again) of definition. Bardon says it is as close as possible to NDE and I say it is NDE, well what does that matter?
Quote from: SpectralDragon

Now, do you find it strange that in bardons "NDE," as you call it, you can get killed simply by someone touching your body, while in a real NDE, this does not occur? Think of the patient being operated upon on a table, all those parts of his body being touched, cut open. Him being placed on the stretcher... This is a real NDE. As clearly stated by both Clark and Bardon himself, the technique is not NDE itself, it's a "recreation" of it.

To return the favor, this is your opinion and a "prime example of "jumping ahold of a certain belief"". How do you know that in a real NDE this cannot occur? I was not referring to just physical touching of the body in the first place, but mostly to astral interference. Let's for a second assume that when we do die, our spirit or whatever that is, is set free in the astral. Many people at NDE have said they felt that they were protected so no (spiritual) harm could come to them. Clark also explains that Bardon sets protective measures in place to prevent any (astral and physical) harm. I could imagine that if you really sever the link between physical body and spirit at (a recreation of) a NDE that perhaps another spirit could do a lot of harm by ruining the last final link between physical body and spirit (people speak of a cord that connects the two). This all is pure assumption, i confess, but not way insanely impossible to me at least.
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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2004, 14:42:08 »

Quote from: Xetrov
Hey SpectralDragon,
Quote from: SpectralDragon

I would also like to add that in order for ESP to work, the individual's physical senses have to be in order. You are not fully aware of your physical body or the sensations of the physical body while in bruces OBE, thus this assumption is likely not correct.
That is your assumption. I say however that this is not needed and that ESP or remote sensing can be done from sleep/(lucid)dreams and Bruce type of OBE. This is something i think strongly i have experienced myself multiple times. Why would you need your working physical senses anyway to do ESP? What is the relation according to you between ESP and physical senses?


Quite the contrary, this is based on my personal experience and understanding of both. I know these as facts. You, however, do not, as you have not had the experiences I have had.

Quote
To return the favor, this is your opinion and a "prime example of "jumping ahold of a certain belief"". How do you know that in a real NDE this cannot occur? I was not referring to just physical touching of the body in the first place, but mostly to astral interference. Let's for a second assume that when we do die, our spirit or whatever that is, is set free in the astral. Many people at NDE have said they felt that they were protected so no (spiritual) harm could come to them. Clark also explains that Bardon sets protective measures in place to prevent any (astral and physical) harm. I could imagine that if you really sever the link between physical body and spirit at (a recreation of) a NDE that perhaps another spirit could do a lot of harm by ruining the last final link between physical body and spirit (people speak of a cord that connects the two). This all is pure assumption, i confess, but not way insanely impossible to me at least.


Again, quite the contrary. Bardon stated what he did based on well known facts that he researched and experienced first-hand. Some of his students have perished in this manner, and as such you can bet he is also explaining this in explicit detail from firsthand experience.

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To return the favor, this is your opinion and a "prime example of "jumping ahold of a certain belief"".


If you wish to get emotionally attached to this otherwise lighthearted debate, perhaps we should both back off for a while. As stated before, everyone jumps onto certain beliefs: it's human nature. What is presented here, however, and what I "jump onto," as you claim, is a presentation of ideas, ideals, and facts. Unless obviously stated, I am not "jumping onto" such ideals.

If, at any time, you find my remarks to be personally insulting, you are free to say so and I will back off. I am not trying to create negativity, evil, and misunderstanding. I am simply debating points, which is pointless if feelings get hurt.
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Xetrov
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2004, 20:57:46 »

hey there dragon,

I do not find your comments insulting at all and i enjoyed the discussion. Also i certainly did not mean to say you would put any negativity into it. Im sorry if I made it look that way (probably my bad english then). We just disagree about 100% on this topic, so lets keep it at that and respects each others viewpoints (which i know you do).  

Cheers,
Xetrov.
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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2004, 07:39:39 »

Quote from: Xetrov
hey there dragon,

I do not find your comments insulting at all and i enjoyed the discussion. Also i certainly did not mean to say you would put any negativity into it. Im sorry if I made it look that way (probably my bad english then). We just disagree about 100% on this topic, so lets keep it at that and respects each others viewpoints (which i know you do).  

Cheers,
Xetrov.


Sounds good to me.


To further an argument I had before:
Quote
Quite the contrary, this is based on my personal experience and understanding of both. I know these as facts. You, however, do not, as you have not had the experiences I have had.

(firstly, the idea about you not having my experiences is this: obviously, since you are not me, you don't have the same set of experiences that I do)
ESP, which means Extra Sensory Perception, is usually done by touch. Studies have been done on this, but because of the nature of this power, the studies are difficult to conduct, this is why: a vision of the information is provided to the ones who are recieving it. This information is said to come from energy and certain vibrations.

In a projection, one cannot use certain functions of thier perceptive abilities. Hearing, Sight, Sound, Taste, all of these are either muted or are blocked. Even when someone shakes a projector, they don't feel the shaking till they are back in thier bodies. You are recalled, but only because something is going on which you know of through the silver cord.

Because of this, information cannot be gleamed through ESP in a projection or an "inner projection," as they are often called.
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