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Author Topic: NEGS - real entities or just old fears?  (Read 4665 times)
Tisha
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« on: July 31, 2002, 12:07:41 »

I truly (really) believe that concepts such as good/evil, up/down, in/out, etc., are hypothetical constructs . . . and they WORK for us.  That doesn't mean they are real in the truest sense . . . it just means they are real for US, in this Time, actually in this TimeSpace in the universe right now.

If we construct a world view where good entities and bad entities battle eternally on the cosmic stage, then our experiences will follow pretty much along these lines.  These experiences will be very "real" to us, so far be it for me to say that it's not happening.  Because it is!  Welcome to consensus reality!  

The challenge for me has been to transcend duality in a time/space that has duality absolutely INGRAINED.   Dip your head into Eternity and you will be socked with the notion that Everything IS.   If it doesn't send you to the psych ward, and you can internalize it well enough to remember it, then you might come to realize how much we shape our realities, carve out our little space in the All, complete with Natural Laws that give us order and relief.

We have set up a worldview that includes good and evil.  So, good things (i.e., things that seem convenient or beneficial for us) and bad things (things that supposedly threaten us) surround us and of course we cheer for the "good" because we see it as convenient to us.

As for "negs" on the astral?  We presume that they threaten us.  So we fight them or run from them.  But what if They Just ARE?   I challenge all of you to to try to communicate with the next "neg" that you meet.  Ask it what it wants, who it is, what it is there for.   Then post its answer and your reaction to it!  I'd love to read it.

Tisha

 
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Tisha
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2002, 13:10:29 »

Well everytime Ive seen a neg and felt them on me.I was in a not so great mood.So I think they come from ourselves.And I guess other people negs can affect you as well.They sure do bother me on the physical sometimes.Even though I cannot see them.


All my obes,never seen anything bad.But they  could of been taken as bad.For someone who is not ready to deal with being in a totally diff. environment.Ozzy Osbourne and his crazy clowns could of been some kind of evil entity attack.(If you read my other post)

And about the good and evil thing.How do we know the universe will collapse?This is what ive heard also.If there was no evil,why would it?Im not ready to believe in something like that.Humantity has a habit of trying to improve everything.Ex. religion,government,even animals now.. etc.This is how evil began to me.

I wonder sometimes if the astral and all its plains.And everything in them.Is all and everything that is in everybodys minds.The whole collective concious.

People believe in all diff. kinds of things.From UFOS,Santa Claus,Angels,GOD,Demons and etc.So I can see maybe why these things are around.And Humans have been on this earth for a long time.Its been growing and growing.More and more is being created.We have some crazy imaginations.And that is way more powerful than most people think.Enough people think something  enough times.It will excist.

Im not certain on any of this.Im not really sure what to believe.Everything looks real to us now.But all we have to do is change are point of view.And everything is diff.OBE is an extreme way of changing it.Everything you thought  was truth is gone.Is there even any truth?
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2002, 13:10:29 »

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Frank
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2002, 12:45:08 »

I wish I could say for sure whether "negs" encountered during obe are actually proper entities as such. Problem is, in all my Astral adventures, I never came across anything that could remotely be called "negative" that was not occuring either directly as a result of my own emotional interplay, or through my lack of Astral understanding.

Naturally, I came across LOADS of scary situations in my early research. But that fear was merely being generated due to my having come across some situation, or other, that was just so darned different to what I had experienced before: Physical or Astral.

Tisha's post resonates with my own thoughts to a great extent. And I, for one, firmly believe there is no such thing as positive and negative on the Astral: just a lack of Astral understanding. I believe also that the syllogistic way in which our mind tends to operate, while extremely beneficial on the Physical, can be a major stumbling block on the Astral.  

Again, I feel this negative/positive issue, and the like, is yet another case of Astral Anthropomorphism.

Because hypothetical constructs (such as positive/negative, good/bad, etc.) can work well, on the Physical plane, we have the natural tendency to follow the same line of thinking on the Astral. After all, you travel to the Astral with the same collective sense of conscious awareness that you have with you on the Physical.

However, on the Astral, it is a fact that very different rules apply. And these differences can have the effect of creating major distortions in our sense of perception.

The only other situation that I came across fairly recently, is when I pass through what I call the Stray Energy stage that occurs immediately before the Astral comes into view. It seems there is a kind of threshhold-area right before the start of the Astral proper.

I perceive this Stray Energy in many different forms. I often see glimpses of what I would describe as gargoyle-like faces (or rather parts of faces, mostly) of the kind you see on old church or cathedral buildings. I don't really pay attention to these as my intention is to reach the Astral.

Personally, I never really gave this any thought. However, just recently, while posting to another thread, the idea suddenly occured to me that maybe what people were calling "negs" were, in fact, what I was calling Stray Energy.
 
Yours,
Frank



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kakkarot
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2002, 20:28:54 »

"believe nothing until you experience it yourself; this way you will believe nothing that is not real."

~kakkarot

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Gandalf
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2002, 21:59:37 »

Hmm,
I think the idea of a negative being makes good sensse though.
negs are said to feed of negative energy.
One of the easiest neg energies to produce is fear (and one of the most powerful)
All you have to do if your a neg is to get your victim scared shiltess and you have lots of tasty free energy.
So you're average day would consist in scaring people out of their minds and generally making their life a misery to benefit you. Its not cos your evil, its just the easiest way to do it.
so you are now a 'negative' by definition.
are you evil as well?
I would say so. although you are doing this as part of a plan to get energy for yourself you are causing suffering to others which is bad.
Secondly, although you are causing people distress only so that you can access their energy, wouldnt you begin to enjoy it after a while?
I believe that  a being engaging in this kind of activity over a long period of time would become 'warped' to a certain extent and proceed to find great enjoyment in tormenting people.

I don't think this is too far fetched, I think its quite possible for a spirit to go down this path, just as in the phisical world, serial killers become addicted to killing, once they start they cant stop.
All this is negative and can be described as evil in the sense that we are talking about beings phisical/non-phisical who do nasty things to others for their own benefit/enjoyment.

Douglas

 
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2002, 21:59:37 »



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Frank
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2002, 01:32:43 »




Personally, the idea of a "negative being" to me makes no sense at all.

Moreover, the thought that some "neg" could become in some way "attached" to me makes me chuckle. My sense of logic says this is merely a problem that occurs as a result of our natural human syllogistical
way of thinking.

Plus, as Tisha mentioned (and I agree) we tend to conclude that what we might initially think is "bad" for us must be "negative". But the sheer fact remains, every really difficult circumstance I ever had in my life (to date) turned out to be an extremely valuable learning process.

Yours,
Frank



 
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Gandalf
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2002, 10:11:51 »

Actually, I agree with you Frank and I like what your saying.
Do you think however, that it is possible for a spirit to end up engaging in the activities that I speculated in my post?
As I said, a simlar situation on the phisical plane would be that of a serial killer who becomes addicted to his activities and finds enjoyment/energy in doing them, he is unable to stop.
I think its possible for spirits to end up doing something similar, especially if they are tied to the earh plane. In fact, I was thinking  that you might want to do this to gain enough energy to *remain* on the earthplane, especially if you consider the possibility of someone who died but was determined not to 'move on' as such.
He/she might be determined to do what ever possible to remain here, if they have some knowelege of energy and its principles then i think it might be possible.

Douglas


 
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Tisha
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2002, 11:33:49 »

Hmmmm . . . a thought . . . are vultures evil?  How about bald eagles and other carrion birds.  Predators in general?  If rodents were human, they'd probably assign the term "evil" on those things coming out of the sky, seemingly from nowhere.  However, because they are not human, probably all they are thinking is SH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I

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Tisha
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2002, 11:38:49 »

Nope, they aren't. They're just after food, with no malice involved.

Now, a cat toying with a mouse could very easily be described as evil, as it's deliberately inflicting pain for no reason other than it's own entertainment.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world.
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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WalkerInTheWoods
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2002, 11:53:06 »

So is a human that hunts for sport evil? He/she is deliberately inflicting pain for no reason other than their own entertainment.

 
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Frank
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2002, 13:18:39 »



Galdalf: from my experience of the Astral I would have to say that it is possible, but very unlikely.

I am a fairly normal, balanced, healthy individual who happens to be able to project to the Astral and have done so for around 20 years. In all that time, as I say, I never, ever came across anything I could call "negative" that was not a product either of my own emotional interplay, i.e. expressing emotions such as fear, doubt, confusion, and so forth; or due to a basic misunderstanding of what was taking place in the Astral circumstances I found myself in.

But there are so many people who claim to have seen all manner of what they call: negative entities. Many even claim they have these "neg" things "attached" to them which, in some way, "drain" their energy.

From my hands-on experience, I can only conclude that there has to be an "additional element" that some people have within them which either attracts, or in some way creates, these devilish sort of creatures.

Sometimes my curiosity leads me to flip through some posts in the Psychic Self-Defence forum. But I find it all way, way too negative for my tastes. All that talk of possession and killing and evil. Uugh, even just thinking about it makes me want to soak in a hot bath.

Yours,
Frank



 
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WalkerInTheWoods
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2002, 13:38:41 »

Frank, I think this "additional element" is really their misunderstanding of the astral and what is happening. As you have posted so many times, it is very easy to get caught up in your emotions on the astral. I think many people believe there is evil, just like many believe there is a god, angels, etc. When they encounter something they do not understand they assume it is negative and must be evil. Their feelings and beliefs give this thing power and shape it to be the evil they are believing it to be. Since they then believe they have seen something evil, they assume that it is true that evil entities exist. They allow the experience to reinforce their beliefs instead of actually exploring what it could possibly be.

I will admit it could be possible that there might be these "lost souls" who persue a darker course on the astral. I do not think that such entities would be very powerful or in large numbers. I think that if someone does meet such entities they allow their fears and beliefs to give the illusion that these entities are more powerful than they are. These entities would most likely seek out these people because they would want others to see them as being powerful. Those that stand up to them and see through their illusion would be less desirable to seek out for they would not fulfill the purpose these entities would be seeking.

 
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Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way.
Gandalf
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2002, 15:36:44 »

Hmmmm . . . a thought . . . are vultures evil? How about bald eagles and other carrion birds. Predators in general? If rodents were human, they'd probably assign the term "evil" on those things coming out of the sky, seemingly from nowhere. However, because they are not human, probably all they are thinking is SH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tisha
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Its ok, i'm not trying to find evidence of evil in the traditional sense, I was really discussing whether thee are entities out there, just as in the human world who are not very nice and take advantage of other for their own benefits.
Its not evil as in the biblical/western sense but I think negative is an ok term to use in that it describes someone who wants to be horrible to someone else.
So I would describe Hannibal Lector as being negative in that it wouldnt be very healthy for me to be around him, whether he (or I) is in spirit or flesh!

I see whee you are coming from in saying that we have much to learn from these characters so in this sense every 'negative' experience is actually not so because it is promoting growth.
If that works for some then fine, But for me,  just because the effects of a nasty situation may be crucial for growth, its twisting things round to say, 'well it was actually good for me, nothing that happens is trully bad'. That may be well and true, but it doesnt detract from the nature of the being in question that has affected you.

What you're describing is a way of viewing such contacts/experiences, a perspective, but this doesnt detract from the rather nasty nature of some beings/people.
If they affect me, adversly or not, even if it IS for a divine purpose and I need this experience, I would still describe the being doing the harming as a negative influence.

As you say, its all about perspective.
All I'm saying is that there are some beings out there who would like to harm you, just as in the real world.
If contact with them is required for personal growth then fine.
It comes back to the baance thing I was talking about earlier.
'negative' experience is there for a divine purpose, so that we can learn by overcoming adversity. So you are right from a gestalt perspective to say that there is nothing truly negative.
Compare WW2
You can say it was not negative from a greater perspective due to the fact that it was a harsh learning curve for humans, but I would class the war itself as being a negative experience with some negative minded people.

Anyway, I'm talking sh**e now so I'll stop, I can't even remember what I was talking about...
AARRGHHH! It's the negs screwing with my head............... only joking.

Douglas





 
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Frank
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2002, 07:34:47 »

There are Spirits resident on the Astral who, in one way of looking at it, could be said to be engaging in evil acts. The lower Astral is just like the Physical in so very many ways. However, when you come to ask the question: what harm can these beings actually do to someone living on the Physical? I would say the answer to that question is precious little.

Undeveloped Spirits have very little power on the Astral. Plus, the chances of them getting locked in an emotion-fuelled loop is quite high; which completely negates their capacity to think freely thus rendering them totally harmless. (Though the activities they can engage in often look dangerous and scary, at first.)

In contrast, the developed beings have immense power. And when I say "immense" I mean absolutely mind-blowingly immense. If you are asking the question: could the energies these beings have control of *directly* harm someone living on the Physical plane? The answer to that would be a resounding Yes, in theory. But it could never happen in practice.

It is impossible for these advanced Spirits to harm you as they basically look at you as an extension of themselves; and they, in turn, look at themselves as an extension of the Whole.

That is basically why I cannot agree to the idea of one great source of "negative energy" being held in check my one great source of "positive energy". Simply because, ultimately, there is only one all-encompassing source. (My apologies here, Gandalf, if I appear to be cutting a swathe through your heartfelt beliefs. Such is absolutely not my intention.)

I believe the "eternal struggle" concept is a Physical plane notion only. For it simply does not exist in the upper echelons of the Astral. In these regions, the notion of eternal-struggle has basically been replaced by the notion of eternal-cooperation.

Yours,
Frank




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Gandalf
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2002, 09:54:05 »

Its ok Frank,
Those werent 'heart felf beliefs'! It was just a notion I was toying with and liked the idea of but I'm open to any progression on the subject. I think it is a matter of perspective, of how you view others.
I like the idea of the 'etenrnal struggle' idea but now with he following modification, now I'm thinking, that maybe this is a metaphor for the constant struggle within each person, between their spiritial side and their more animalistic inclinations or between the ego and the subconcious. They both need to be in balance for spiritial growth. I dont think there's anything 'wrong' as such with either. This is where I disagree with buddhists who would have you believe that the ego is totally evil and corrupt and must be destroyed. This is far too extreme.
In my view, all we are talking about here is balance.

Thanks for your input!

Regards,
Douglas



 
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"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.
Gandalf
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2002, 11:22:32 »

This is an interesting issue. (I posted this topic here because I think it is an interesting topic for all new Obe'ers - and a potentially frightning one!) While RB clearly believes in such things and their effects on humans others believe that negs are nothing more than manifistations of personal fears.
Frank for one has said that he doesnt believe that negs encountred during obe are actually proper entities as such.
I agree with him to some extent. I think that almost all the so called 'negs' that people encounter during obe are actually manifistation of personal fear.
However, does this mean that true negative forces do not exist IN ADDITION to this?
I am open to the concept that powerful sentient negative forces exist in addition to this and do effect the world in some form or other.
I believe that negativity is part of creation because the universe must exist in balance for it to grow. But while positive forces want to keep the balance equal, negative forces want to tip it - They have been designed this way on purpose.
I believe that the 'eternal struggle' concept is true as it is the only viable way in which the universe and its inhabitants can grow.

Anyway, thats my 2 (Euro) cents for the day!

Douglas




 
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