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Author Topic: OBE's just a Product of a Confused Mind?  (Read 16277 times)
Fresco
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« on: February 20, 2011, 19:51:39 »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/8327304/AAAS-Out-of-body-experiences-are-just-the-product-of-a-confused-mind.html

Quote
Throughout history people have described how they have floated from their bodies and looked back at themselves, often when close to death or on the operating table.

The accounts have been so vivid that they are often cited as proof of the existence of the soul or Heaven.

But scientists now claim they have dispelled this myth by artificially creating an out-of-body experience using computers and cameras.

They believe the feeling of detachment occurs when the brain becomes confused by conflict between the senses - and is not proof of any "spiritual dimension" to existence.

Professor Olaf Blanke and his team at University of Geneva said they had "immersed" volunteers into the body of an avatar - a computer generated version of themselves.

Volunteers were asked to wear virtual reality goggles and then stand in front of a camera.

The subjects saw the cameras view of their back on screens in the goggles, computer enhanced to create a 3D virtual version or avatar.

When their back was stroked with a pen so was the virtual avatar in front of them, making them think that the virtual body was in fact their own.

In this way people became confused about their real and the virtual self - even though they were effectively two metres apart from each other.

Prof Blanke, who presented his findings at the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) conference in Washington, said: "Through vision and touch they lost themselves.

"They start thinking that the avatar is their own body. We created a partial out-of-body experience.

"We were able to dissociate touch and vision and make people think that their body was two metres in front of them."

He said by inducing the out-of-body experience it proved it was more like a brain malfunction when sight, touch and balance become confused.

Dr Blanke said: "Instead of it being a spiritual thing, it is the brain being confused. Why do we think that it is spiritual when we don't think a phantom limb when one is lost is an example of the paranormal."

To take the research further they used sensors connected to the skull to find the areas of the brain most involved in deciding where it belongs.

These were found to be temporo-parietal and frontal regions - parts at the front and right side of the brain responsible for integrating touch and vision.

If these were damaged or somehow short-circuited it could account for the feeling of floating above your body often associated with an out-of-body experiences.

Aside from explaining out-of-body experiences, the work could have more commercial applications, said the researcher.

The technique could be used to make computer games even more exciting or projecting people into robot soldiers or surgeons.

They could even be used to treat eating disorders linked with a flawed body image, such as anorexia.

Out-of-body experiences most often occur during sleep or waking as well as through drug use, trauma and under anaesthetic.

They effect around one in 10 of the population
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The_One
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 20:05:20 »

 What do you believe Fresco?
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 20:05:20 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

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Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Fresco
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 20:44:57 »

What do you believe Fresco?
Until I project more I cant really say for sure.  However, I lean towards OBE and AP being real, as opposed to a product of our imagination.  
So in that respect I think the article is wrong, and a typical reaction to a phenomenon science cant really explain, so they come up with the usual "its all in your head" excuse.

Doctors gave the same explanation when CFIDS and Morgellon diseases first appeared, their explanation was always "its all just in your head, try to be more positive".  But now they finally had to acknowledge these are real diseases and not product of imagination
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Monk
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 21:00:47 »

The "all in your head" excuse can be transgressed into an interpretation of "it's all in your mind" excuse for the modern western society. From that you can theorize basically anything pertaining to the nature of OBE's and AP.

Postulating as whether different objective hypotheses and their "wrongness" is the exact same thing as postulating various subjective beliefs and their "rightness". The problem is that you can only prove what's "true" to yourself and not to others; go beyond that and you're just asking to be proven wrong. The article is not wrong nor right and is only a reaction to this phenomena from the scientists perspective. It's the exact same thing as anyone else's perspective reaction in the sense that it's something mystical/"beyond us".

The only thing an individual can do objectively is look at it and consider the possibilities. Anything else goes into the speculation department...

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Volgerle
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 21:43:48 »

This is an old hat. They did this already years ago.

If this experiment is new then this is not the first time that they have done this camera optical/sensorical illusion thing. This is stupid.

Because that's what it is: just a sensorical / optical illusion. Of course you can do that. It has nothing to do with OBEs.

Last week I was sitting in the train at the station. I stared out of the window at other trains/platforms. Then I thought "oops, my train is leaving a bit too early now". Only to notice a few seconds later then that it was the train on the opposite platform that was arriving. Optical-sensorical illusion. Happens all day.

Scientists ... so that's what they waste their budgets for ...  rolleyes

It is also very ironic that skeptics and materialist scientists (or both in one) who have NEVER in their life experienced any 'real' OBE or similar spiritual events know it all best and can 'explain' (or 'explain away') to us (more or less skilled) experiencers what's the (materialist) basis of an OBE and what it is "like".

And how does the virtual camera "trick" work when you're flying out of your house, visiting friends, witnessing events, did they simulate that one, too?  grin grin grin
And how do all these observed verifications take place? Oh no, of course, we have another debunking strategy for that one: it's all made up or just mere coincidence and accident or the brain draws together some clues, etc... This is getting all so pathetic!!!

Again: this is not new but a few years old.

Fresco, relax and don't worry: it is plain to see they are plain wrong - with almost everything. In the first place, they did not at all create an OBE with their participants. Moreover, their explanatory bases do not even hold up to modern physics at all. So what's this (repeated!) fuss all about? And why does The Telegraph of that dubious AAAS club warm it up now, again?

Meanwhile to me, it's clear:

This is DISinformation spread to keep the public imprisoned in their illusion of a materialist world.

It is annoying that most sheeple .. er .. people .. swallow this belief system - hook, line and sinker. Every day. Because it seems, they also want to.

I really start to think that David Icke is right about the "mainstream" media and "mainstream" science - it "mainstreams" the people, which is easy to do due to their herd instinct. Now they even start to warm up old stories. Poor, very poor. Don't fall for it. They will lose in the end ... maybe very soon.)

Ok, sorry for the offtopic rant now, just saw a D. Icke presentation on youtube recently. The man is probably too far out on some topics, but his core message is true.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 22:05:33 by Volgerle » Logged

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Fresco
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 21:49:04 »

I would even argue is our present physical life for real??!  I can see, smell, hear touch...etc.  But how do I prove that it is real?! 
You cant, right?!  You can only say it feels and appears real to me
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Volgerle
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 22:07:56 »

I would even argue is our present physical life for real??!  I can see, smell, hear touch...etc.  But how do I prove that it is real?!  
You cant, right?!  You can only say it feels and appears real to me
I think it is REAL because it is one REAL-ity ... of many realities. You experience it by receiving and processing vibrational data. Likewise you experience other realities using other inputs and sensors to receive an process the information.
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David Warner
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 23:43:52 »

Fresco,

OBEs are real, just as the physical world we reside in is real. This happens to be old news that a reporter just found on the Internet deciding to write the article.

In all honesty, one can't say that this is final proof without further research, three control groups 1. Non-Projectors 2. Experienced Projectors 3. Near Death Experiencer's. I do not see anywhere in these studies even discussed or admitted to the testing. Also, people who write these articles and the scientists need to really sit down and learn the art of having the OBE. Having book knowledge and science is awesome - always test it but be also willing to experiment and have the experience yourself, not just a few times but couple hundred times.

I am not slamming the author of the article - it just needs more attention of the variables I just listed vs. putting a claim on validation.


When you have time, I like for you to research Near Death Experiences and read up at this site:
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF_NDEs.htm. Also, you might want to review the book that Jeffrey Long (author of the web site NDERF) wrote.

Thank You,

DW






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Summerlander
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 00:09:59 »

Quote
But scientists now claim they have dispelled this myth by artificially creating an out-of-body experience using computers and cameras.

Not true! They are not real scientists and they give science a bad name. what those morons have managed to create was an illusion and nothing like the OOBE.

Science (real science) recognises OOBEs and NDEs to be a real phenomena. Their nature, however, is as enigmatic as consciousness itself.
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urshebear
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 04:03:02 »

I really feel sorry for the people who wrote that article Sad and all people who come to conclusions like this because they want us to fear death like them....They cant stand the fact that they no nothing about why are we here?? where do we go when we die?? and How big is the universe really?? and that there is other people out there who may have some insight...
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Lexy
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 10:44:52 »

sometimes ignorance isn't bliss, it's just ignorance...
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Summerlander
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 13:37:00 »

LOL! True say that! ^^^
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Fresco
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 16:01:10 »

The problem with many scientists is they go into an experiment like this with basically their inside-the-box, closed minds already made up that its not real.  They come from universities where like-minded profs scoff at OBE's, afterlife, AP...etc because science so far hasnt been able to prove it.

For them no scientific proof = its all baloney.  Which is narrow-minded, stupid thinking IMO
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 18:23:03 »

The problem with many scientists is they go into an experiment like this with basically their inside-the-box, closed minds already made up that its not real.  They come from universities where like-minded profs scoff at OBE's, afterlife, AP...etc because science so far hasnt been able to prove it.

For them no scientific proof = its all baloney.  Which is narrow-minded, stupid thinking IMO
I've made mention of this before, but I'll mention it again... if Thomas Campbell's TOE is correct, then science has more wrong with it than anyone even thought possible!
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2011, 19:38:55 »

IDC what they think. Just becuase its "In your head" Doesnt mean its not 'real'.
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Fresco
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2011, 20:10:19 »

I've made mention of this before, but I'll mention it again... if Thomas Campbell's TOE is correct, then science has more wrong with it than anyone even thought possible!
I believe that too.  Dont get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with science so long as its good science.  But in an ever evolving universe its quite possible that science itself evolves with it.  And if thats the case we can never know it all because evolution is infinite.

Having said that I'm not against science at all, I'm only against science thats narrow-minded in its thinking
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Fresco
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2011, 22:19:39 »

http://vimeo.com/1989597
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catmeow
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2011, 00:49:37 »

Bad science.

This is old and largely meaningless research by our old friend Olaf Blanke.  We have known, since the time of Mesmer, that people are suggestible. This is the only conclusion that can be drawn from the research as described in the article.

Describing these results as creating an "out of body experience" is laughable.  The effects described are totally atypical of the OBE experience spectrum.  The conclusions drawn are utterly unwarranted:

Quote
"We created a partial out-of-body experience"

"He said by inducing the out-of-body experience it proved it was more like a brain malfunction when sight, touch and balance become confused"

"Aside from explaining out-of-body experiences, the work could have more commercial applications, said the researcher"

I really can't believe that this was presented to a scientific conference and taken seriously. The stated conclusions are not justified by the experiment.  This is clear to anyone with any knowledge of "scientific method".

Science, literally, at its worst.
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2011, 01:01:17 »

I wrote the last post before reading the replies on this thread. Having read them now it seems that you guys have a much better grasp of this experiment than the learned professor.  The experiment is a trivial optical illusion, not an OBE. That is clear to everyone on this board, but apparently not the learned professor.

Volgerle, your rant was on the mark.
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Highergoals
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 07:14:47 »

With science like that, I think it's time we take our children out of schools  grin
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Fresco
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 12:15:26 »

With science like that, I think it's time we take our children out of schools  grin
This is why I laugh at most of these "studies".

Today Vitamin A prevents cancer, tomorrow it causes cancer and next week they'll have another study that says it prevents cancer again
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catmeow
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« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 12:30:28 »

I just heard that mild to moderate alcohol consumption significantly lowers the risk of heart disease. Yeehaaaaaaa.....
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2011, 01:57:54 »

This is why I laugh at most of these "studies".

Today Vitamin A prevents cancer, tomorrow it causes cancer and next week they'll have another study that says it prevents cancer again

lol...  Still disappointing though that so many people hang on every scientific report and then moments later record it in their memories as fact without even attempting to give it some reasonable thought.
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2011, 20:14:48 »

Everything is real within that concept.

I understand what the OP means by real.

In fact, no Astral Projector in the entire world was able to do simple verifications while "projecting".

I suspect that OBEs are not "real" (real as my body, my computer etc; but they are real as dreams).

I find interesting that almost no projector will try to prove to itself that OBEs are real. Often, they will say that
while OBing one will not care about such "mundane" things...
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catmeow
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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2011, 12:57:43 »

Kazbadan, I agree that there aren't many reports of OBErs consciously performing verifications.  However, there are many reports of NDEs in which information is brought back about physical surroundings, including things going on in rooms nearby, which later proved to be highly accurate.

Dr Sam Parnia is currently heading up a mult-centre study into NDEs in cardiac arrest patients, by asking them if they can report the contents of a card placed out of view of the cardiac arrest subject's bed. It is due to report later this year I think.  It will be interesting to hear the results:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7621608.stm
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