"Threatening" Territory during OBE

[Tee1234]

Well it really does come down to personal belief + experiences, and in the end nobody can ever really prove to you one way or the other.

I'm always quite baffled and puzzled as to why people think they're "separate" things.
Through my experiences I've seen that they're, quite literally, one in the same. 
Also, the term "real" is quite the conundrum. 

What exactly does "REAL" mean?


C'mon Man its not that deep. I mean ya have to draw the line somewhere. You consider every dream you have to be obe?...no difference in the 2?

Personally for me, if I dont get the vibrations and exit my body its not an OBE.

[Summerlander]

Yes, you can see it from that perspective. But consider the fact that when you dream, you are not exactly focusing in the physical body either, you feel like you are somewhere else...hence, you are in essence experiencing being "out of body".

Besides, remember these quotes from The Matrix?

"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

"If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain"

when you think "real", like most people, you are thinking about something which has an actual existence, something that can be found objectively, something fixed...but you also have to realise that this apparently fixed and solid world is made up of subatomic particles which can behave in contradicting ways and their behaviour can strangely depend upon observation...just like a dream. I think this is where Xanth is coming from when he says that this reality could be a very persistent dream.

The objects you see in the physical realm are not exactly what they appear to be. The desk and the computer you use are not really stable. They are made up of atoms that vibrate violently. Nothing is at rest here and yet, this reality can create the illusion that things are fixed.

Also, objects are not really solid even though you perceive them to be so. They are made of atoms and the empty space between them. The empty space is greater than the amount of atoms that make up the object. This simple observation would lead you to the conclusion that the object is mostly made of nothing. The atoms themselves are mostly made of empty space if you go from the nuclei to outer orbits. Break down the atoms themselves and you realise that even these are NOT solid at all. You are then found with bundles of energy which are just waves of possibility in nothingness.

So...if on a quantum level we can observe that even the physical is not stable, just like a dream, and yet we label it "real", is it fair to say that dreams are not real?

[Xanth]

Personally for me, if I dont get the vibrations and exit my body its not an OBE.

Might I *suggest* that by limiting your definition of what an OBE/AP is that, maybe, you're limiting yourself?
Instead, why not just remain open to the possibilities out there and allow to happen to you whatever may happen. 

[Greytraveller]

Greetings

Tee, your last post was

What exactly does "REAL" mean?

C'mon Man its not that deep. I mean ya have to draw the line somewhere. You consider every dream you have to be obe?...no difference in the 2?

Personally for me, if I dont get the vibrations and exit my body its not an OBE.

THANK YOU 
. (Except for the part about vibrations which I have found are Not absolutely necessary, but oh well).
There Does seem to be a need for some people to CONTINUALLY reiterate their belief that there is no difference between an OBE and a lucid dream. This belief has been stated SO MANY times in SO many different threads as to have become somewhat obnoxious.
And the argument about what is Real changes the discussion about what a person experienced into what a person believed that they experienced AND what other people BELIEVED the experiencer experienced.
I am NOT going to get drawn into a debate or long "discussion'" about this. As far as I am concerned this is hardly different than debating the subject of "are OBEs real?" with ardent skeptics. It is a waste of time. If other people want to continually espouse this belief so be it.
Tee I admire you for 'sticking to your guns' on this. Really I do. But we have had debates like this here before. IMO it's a waste of time.

Sincerely 
Grey

[Summerlander]

There Does seem to be a need for some people to CONTINUALLY reiterate their belief that there is no difference between an OBE and a lucid dream. This belief has been stated SO MANY times in SO many different threads as to have become somewhat obnoxious.

Why do you find it obnoxious when there's a good chance that it could be true? Is it not possible that both could be experiences of the same phenomenon but just brought about in different ways? For example, you can either be carried into a hospital while unconscious or you can enter it consciously...

To me that doesn't seem like a fair statement, Grey, it seems biased. Someone else could come along and say that some people feel the need to CONTINUALLY reiterate their belief that OOBEs and lucid dreams are completely different things and that it has been stated SO MANY times and in SO many threads as to have become somewhat obnoxious.

How would that make you feel? Either beliefs are valid. Neither are obnoxious. I will say this though. To make the distinction between OOBEs and lucid dreams solely on vibrations is baseless. Why? Because I have experienced vibrations in both. I have had DILDs where I have experienced vibrations (while in them) and upon return (regaining physical awareness). Regardless of what the experience is, vibes can be experienced.

[Xanth]

Why do you find it obnoxious when there's a good chance that it could be true?

It's really besides the point if it 'could' be true or not.

On a forum like this where there's a continual stream of people coming in and leaving... that's why I keep reiterating it over and over.
It's also why we answer the same questions over and over.

[Summerlander]

I just don't understand why Grey finds one side of the coin obnoxious when the other side turns up just as much. Do you see where I'm coming from, Xanth?

[Xanth]

I just don't understand why Grey finds one side of the coin obnoxious when the other side is turns up just as much. Do you see where I'm coming from, Xanth?

Well I'd rather not take sides here really... I'm more just stating how I see it. 

[Summerlander]

It's not about taking sides really. It really doesn't matter how me or you see things. I just don't see why Grey feels that one side is obnoxious. where is this coming from?

[Tee1234]

It's not about taking sides really. It really doesn't matter how me or you see things. I just don't see why Grey feels that one side is obnoxious. where is this coming from?

Can I get ya a tissue bud?

Take a deep breathe n count to 10. Where all friends here.

[CFTraveler]

Can I get ya a tissue bud?

Take a deep breathe n count to 10. Where all friends here.

It certainly doesn't seem like it, reading this post.

[Greytraveller]

Greetings

Yes, I do find the OBE = LD argument to be very redundant and, at times, obnoxious.

Summerlander
Why do you feel the need to continually repeat this argument again and again?

Does anyone read posts from Tee or myself that Continually profess the belief that OBEs and LDs are separate and distinct phenomena??
The answer to the above question is NO.
While both of us Do believe that OBEs are Not LDs neither of us feels it necessary to interject that belief continually into many different threads.

IMO the OBEs = LDs argument is essentially the same as the argument that the consciousness can Not exist apart from and separate from the physical body. The OBE = LD argument basically boils down to believing that anyone who claims to have experienced their consciousness outside and apart from their physical body (via OBE or NDE) is Mistaken and is unaware that the OBE or NDE is just some sort of glorified Lucid Dream.
The many accounts of people who have had NDEs have clearly and unequivocally shown that consciousness can and does exist apart from the physical body under certain conditions.
NDEs and OBE are not LDs. But here, once again, I am on the defensive. And (read my last post) I won't waste time on this particular argument anymore.

But, hey, from now on, maybe I'll end every third or fourth post here with a statement like,

"And, oh btw, just remember that OBEs (and NDEs) are NOT the same as lucid dreams."

It won't really matter what the original post in the thread is about. I will include the above statement just to remind everyone what my personal belief is.
Now, IF I do that on a regular basis for several weeks then I warrant Many people Will see how obnoxious Any argument can be when it is repeated over and over and out of context .

Sincerely 
Grey

[Pauli2]

Everyone should have that in their sig.

[Summerlander]

Grey, you still haven't told me why one side of the coin is obnoxious and the other isn't. It's not about whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not. It's about whether or not OOBEs and LDs are the same. Hell, I've even had a normal dream that weeks later seems to have proved its precognitive nature! You are avoiding my question. Why are you so in favour of one view and not the other?

[Xanth]

Why do you feel the need to continually repeat this argument again and again?

Does anyone read posts from Tee or myself that Continually profess the belief that OBEs and LDs are separate and distinct phenomena??
The answer to the above question is NO.

I can't answer for Summerlander, but for myself, the knowledge that OBEs and LDs are the same thing is what I believe to be a fundamental step in forwarding our knowledge of the subject.  So yup, I'm gonna be very redundant upon it... because of how fundamental I believe that knowledge to be.  I mean, personally, I simply can't understand why people believe they're different... it's like the nose on my face, so completely and utterly obvious.

IMO the OBEs = LDs argument is essentially the same as the argument that the consciousness can Not exist apart from and separate from the physical body. The OBE = LD argument basically boils down to believing that anyone who claims to have experienced their consciousness outside and apart from their physical body (via OBE or NDE) is Mistaken and is unaware that the OBE or NDE is just some sort of glorified Lucid Dream.
The many accounts of people who have had NDEs have clearly and unequivocally shown that consciousness can and does exist apart from the physical body under certain conditions.
NDEs and OBE are not LDs. But here, once again, I am on the defensive. And (read my last post) I won't waste time on this particular argument anymore.

That's the fundamental problem.  It's one of separating and categorizing experiences (and I'm 100% guilty of doing this as well)... what purpose does it serve to do this?  It simply creates even more of a divide in an already divided community. 

I see categorizing things such as "dreams", "lucid dreams", "NDEs", or whatever as a self-imposed limitation.  There's no reason what-so-ever to categorize these experiences in such a manner.

But yes, Summerlander tossing it in like it's a crouton in a salad (or in this case ANY food product LoL) might not be the best of situations and comes across as being... well, something less than desirable... I mean, I try to mention it only when it's applicable to the subject matter of the thread.  LOL

I mean, the discussion here is the same discussion of "do I really need to state 'in my opinion' before I state my opinion?".  State whatever you want to state, but try to put it in context of the subject of the thread.