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Author Topic: Skeptic who wants to believe. Is it a dream?  (Read 2620 times)
VXS
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« on: May 23, 2011, 19:48:38 »

*This post has become rather long, as I have made an attempt to describe some of my background. You can skip down to the second part for the experiences if you want.

Hi,

As this is my first post I will try to stay as concise and brief as possible. I apologize in advance, because I will probably fail to do this and end up rambling incoherently.

I have always considered myself an intelligent and rational person. I have held contempt for the superstitious beliefs that still haunt humanity, and feel that people believe strange things due to their ignorance of science and due to religious brainwashing from their parents and culture. I have been drawn towards figures such as Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, and James Randi who educate people about science's understanding of the physical world. I feel a strong emotional resistance to 'magical thinking' and superstitious beliefs, most of our modern human problems seem to stem from irrationality, ignorance, and medieval models of reality.

At the same time I have never outgrown irrational childhood fears of the dark, spirits, aliens, boogeymen, etc. My rational mind cannot abolish these primal fears through logic alone (even though I've done extensive reading on material which seems to debunk nearly all paranormal phenomenon.) The science in me tells me that perhaps these 'irrational' fears come from the animal part of my brain.  My entire life I have been plagued by the fear of death...of ceasing to exist...of oblivion. Logically I 'know' that I am just an animal, who has gotten too smart for its own good, and has created an ego and consciousness which exist only inside of the brain. Obviously the chimpanzee inside of me does not want to die, as no other animal does, and the thought of not existing terrifies me. I do not know how everyone is able to deal with this looming reality, they seem to distract themselves from it, but I cannot. I am 27 years old at the time of this post, still considered relatively young, but I have watched my life fly by so far and cannot seem to push the thought of oblivion out of my head. I have a tremendous fear of death, which is now interfering with my ability to enjoy life.

I have now come across the idea of A.P., and I admit when I first heard of it I thought it was as crazy as anything else that I perceive to not be real. What has struck my interest is the message to skeptics that anyone can do it (with sufficient effort and practice), and that it is a subjective experience that you can only 'prove to yourself'. I still do not believe it, I am not convinced, but I am willing to be open minded for once in my life because I want to believe that I am more than a mundane physical being that will rot in the ground and cease to exist. I want to believe that consciousness can exist outside of the body. At this point I am willing to even delude myself or believe a lie, if that means that I will no longer fear death and be able to live the rest of my life in peace.

I have had lucid dreams my entire life. The majority of my dreams are not lucid, but every once in a while I come to the realization that I am dreaming. The epiphany will seem to emerge suddenly, when I am doing something in the dream... I will be speaking with someone and then proclaim "this is just a dream, this is MY dream, none of you are real, you are part of my reality". I seem to feel some empowerment at this point. Many times I will wake up shortly after this (or maybe just lose lucidity, I wouldn't really know), other times I have been able to steer the dream in the direction I choose... I will go flying, or more likely act out some vivid sexual fantasy as I know I am safe and free to do.  evil

Sometimes I will be overcome with fear. The realization that I am in the dream comes with the realization that it could turn into a nightmare. Often when I feel this fear I will wake myself up. I have actually become good at returning to my body and jolting myself out of sleep paralysis. I am familiar with my body feeling paralyzed and heavy and too tired to move, and I am able to will myself awake with a jolt. This actually happens to me a lot, now that I think about it, and this lucidity together with sub-conscious fears often interferes with my quality of sleep.

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Now that I have been researching Astral Projection, I have had some strange experiences. However, I am not entirely convinced that these are not vivid dream-states that have been influenced by what I have read.

First of all, the LOUD vibration, which shakes my entire being. I am no longer in the dream, and I am aware that I am lying in my bed asleep. Every time that it happens, I think to myself "this IS real"...the sensation is so physical, and almost violent. I do not know how to describe the sound, but every time that I have felt it I think 'oh yes, that's exactly what it was like last time'. I guess it would be similar to a motor, or motorcycle noise but not quite. It shakes me to my core, and seems to accelerate and speed up as I feel myself floating. This is where it ends however, I do not feel like I have floated far from my body (if at all), and I cannot see a thing. I am in total darkness, hearing and feeling a very loud and very real (at the time) vibration.

This is about as far as it has gone, but it has happened several times now. A couple of times I have come into lucidity during a dream and thought to myself 'ok, you're dreaming and you are in your bed...come back to your body, feel your body in your bed'. This has usually done the trick, and I have gotten into the vibrational phase trying to will myself out of my body, before waking up soon after. A couple of times it has happened spontaneously, without the lucid aspect, I have come to the realization that I am asleep in my bed and tried to will myself out of my body. For some strange reason it happens more often when I am hung-over, or sleep deprived, or if the tv or something else is interfering with my sleep.

One time it happened during a daytime nap. It was SO REAL, because my mind felt fully conscious. I forced myself awake after the vibration became too intense. I still could not see anything, but I did not really want to. I remembered what I read about how I might see some scary things, and even if they cannot harm me I did not want to be scared. When I forced myself up, I was paralyzed for a few seconds and I still felt the vibrations. They were as real as pins and needles when your limb falls asleep, but more intense and all over. I remember being fully conscious and convinced of what I had just experienced...even scared to close my eyes and drift off again. However, as I describe the experience to you now it seems as distant,cloudy and ethereal as a dream.
 
Herein lies my problem. I am not able to separate these recent experiences from dreams. There was one experience early on where I DID see myself floating in my room, I walked downstairs and found myself in a party of other people I believed to be astral projecting. I remember thinking how vivid and real it was, and how my life would never be the same. However, upon 'waking', I realized that it was just a dream. When I walked downstairs, that wasn't even really my house..it was some crazy alternate version of my house.

Once I was convinced that I could feel myself paralyzed in my bed and that I was in the vibrational state. However, upon waking I realized I was lying on my other side (when I thought I was conscious and trying to leave my body I was on my left, but I woke up I was actually on my right.) So I had imagined the whole thing.
 
Perhaps I did begin to separate, but then lost consciousness and returned to the dream state. Anyway, I'm at the point where I'm interested enough to keep experimenting, but I'm not anywhere near being a believer especially with what I know about lucid dreams, false awakenings, hypnogogic states, auditory hallucinations, etc...

I realize that my biggest problem at this point is fear. I cannot see anything during the vibrations, and usually awake soon after they start. I am aware of a sense of fear while it is happening, first because of the intensity of the vibration increasing, and second because of all I have read about 'entities, shadow people, etc...'. I do not want to open my astral eyes and see something scary. I guess that means that my consciousness is not ready to see something outside of physical reality. But going back to earlier in my post, I do feel ready because I want to know if this is real or not and if there is consciousness outside of the body...and if there is life after death.

Anyway, this post is long and rambling, and in hindsight doesn't really have a clear point. I just wanted to organize my thoughts so far, and talk to someone about this. Obviously I would never talk to anyone in my real life about it since it is totally and utterly crazy.  shocked Thanks for anyone who did take the time to read, and thanks in advance for any insight that you may have.

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Summerlander
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 21:10:05 »

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I have always considered myself an intelligent and rational person. I have held contempt for the superstitious beliefs that still haunt humanity, and feel that people believe strange things due to their ignorance of science and due to religious brainwashing from their parents and culture.

Me too! Me too! cool

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medieval models of reality.

grin

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The science in me tells me that perhaps these 'irrational' fears come from the animal part of my brain.

Children experience nightmares because they lack understanding about the world that surrounds them and they have more fears in general. It's not so different with adults and so-called "astral projection".

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My entire life I have been plagued by the fear of death...of ceasing to exist...of oblivion.

Don't be. No more pain. No more experience. No more assholes around you getting on your nerves or making you feel like poo. Complete bliss. wink

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I have a tremendous fear of death, which is now interfering with my ability to enjoy life.

Live each day with reverence. Accept that all living beings die. Be at peace with this simple fact. And then make the most of it.

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I still do not believe it, I am not convinced,

OOBEs are acknowledged by science. It is a real phenomenon which is very much misunderstood. I have experienced them countless times. It is easier than you think and I can direct you to a good site where you will find all you need:

www.obe4u.com

Still, OOBEs (the experience of being out-of-body - but it doesn't mean that it actually happens as it could be illusory and concocted by the brain) are by no means proof that there is an afterlife. OOBEs are simply as elusive as dream states.

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believe a lie

A lie? It's no lie. The experience is real. What it is, is the real question.

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Now that I have been researching Astral Projection, I have had some strange experiences. However, I am not entirely convinced that these are not vivid dream-states that have been influenced by what I have read.

the obe4u site is definitely for you. They are projections to the realm of thoughts or the metaphysical. That's what the so-called "astral plane" is. This is as pragmatic as you can get. If AP happens in such realm, then ask yourself where dreams happen. Thus your question is answered. "Astral Projection" and "lucid dreaming" are just terms we made up. They might as well be the same thing. Only in AP, you tend to 'separate' into a replica of your bedroom which might as well be manifested by your mind from expectation. Also, considering that space/distance is a thought in itself in that reality, which emulates the physical (and I can testify to this!), you are not really going anywhere, my friend. cool

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First of all, the LOUD vibration, which shakes my entire being. I am no longer in the dream, and I am aware that I am lying in my bed asleep. Every time that it happens, I think to myself "this IS real"...the sensation is so physical, and almost violent.

Come on. You're a man of science. It's because they are physical. The most likely explanation is that they are tactile feedback from the rapid polarisation/depolarisation of neurons during muscle atonia. Of course it's real...and natural! cheesy

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I guess it would be similar to a motor, or motorcycle noise but not quite. It shakes me to my core, and seems to accelerate and speed up as I feel myself floating. This is where it ends however, I do not feel like I have floated far from my body (if at all), and I cannot see a thing. I am in total darkness, hearing and feeling a very loud and very real (at the time) vibration.

Yes, I've felt this too and gone beyond. The best way to go beyond in my opinion is to prime yourself with a nap or sleep before you go down to induce. It is a good idea to induce OOBEs in the morning after you've woken up. There are other sensations in SP like the misplacement of external sound which could indicate unusual but innocuous activity of certain brain areas like the thalamus.

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One time it happened during a daytime nap. It was SO REAL, because my mind felt fully conscious. I forced myself awake after the vibration became too intense. I still could not see anything, but I did not really want to. I remembered what I read about how I might see some scary things, and even if they cannot harm me I did not want to be scared. When I forced myself up, I was paralyzed for a few seconds and I still felt the vibrations. They were as real as pins and needles when your limb falls asleep, but more intense and all over. I remember being fully conscious and convinced of what I had just experienced...even scared to close my eyes and drift off again. However, as I describe the experience to you now it seems as distant,cloudy and ethereal as a dream.

Yep. Yep. Almost induced it. Use the roll over and out technique to separate when it happens. Actually do it and don't worry about falling on the floor. evil

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I am not able to separate these recent experiences from dreams. There was one experience early on where I DID see myself floating in my room, I walked downstairs and found myself in a party of other people I believed to be astral projecting. I remember thinking how vivid and real it was, and how my life would never be the same. However, upon 'waking', I realized that it was just a dream. When I walked downstairs, that wasn't even really my house..it was some crazy alternate version of my house.

That's it. This is what it's all about. You've "astral projected". Though I hate the term. Like I said, they might as well be dreams because you come out in a burlesque version of reality which does not match actuality. Your scepticism is justified. wink

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I realize that my biggest problem at this point is fear. I cannot see anything during the vibrations, and usually awake soon after they start. I am aware of a sense of fear while it is happening, first because of the intensity of the vibration increasing, and second because of all I have read about 'entities, shadow people, etc...'. I do not want to open my astral eyes and see something scary. I guess that means that my consciousness is not ready to see something outside of physical reality. But going back to earlier in my post, I do feel ready because I want to know if this is real or not and if there is consciousness outside of the body...and if there is life after death.

Just forget about all this useless crap and focus on having fun and how such a state of consciousness can help you. Their could be many useful things you can access from your subconscious and with your imagination, you can pretty much live out any fantasy. Explore the state free of preconceptions. Stop linking it to the afterlife. It's wishful thinking. Why bother with stuff you can't prove when you have the chance to explore what seems like a never-ending library? rolleyes

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So I had imagined the whole thing.

That's the beauty of it. It's so elusive. You interpret it how you want. If you want to believe it was imagined...so be it! wink

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Anyway, this post is long and rambling, and in hindsight doesn't really have a clear point. I just wanted to organize my thoughts so far, and talk to someone about this. Obviously I would never talk to anyone in my real life about it since it is totally and utterly crazy.   Thanks for anyone who did take the time to read, and thanks in advance for any insight that you may have.

You can talk to me! LOL grin
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 21:19:54 by Summerlander » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 21:10:05 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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VXS
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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2011, 01:50:49 »

Hey, thanks a lot for the website recommendation. I'm reading the free ebook now and will try the techniques over the next couple of weeks. I am optimistic and excited by the fact that this method seems to have a high success rate, and I am willing to put in the time and effort to experience it.
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Psan
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 04:23:10 »

Hi and welcome to Astralpulse. Now you won't be able to leave this site Cheesy
I enjoyed your long post and it sounds a lot like my own story, except I'm a bit more fearless and carefree.

Summerlander has already given an in-depth reply and I agree totally with whatever he says, and would like to add a few more bits.

You are experiencing something rare but not so rare. People have been experiencing such states since thousands of years now and everything is well documented. As is the case with subjective experiences, there are a million interpretations of it. Especially in east this art was cultivated as a science.

Linking AP with death can be a bit premature, no one knows for sure. AP will not take away the fear of death, except (that's a big except) in rare case of you meeting an evolved entity who shows you the truth and actually convinces you. Mostly your APs shall be fun and exploration without any proof. If you are serious about it, you can develop it so much so that eventually you get a proof (positive or negative) of a consciousness independent of physical existence. That should be the purpose of AP scientifically speaking, but for most its merely a curiosity.

Believe me the 'you' who is afraid will surely die and become soil again. With the brain gone, the personality that calls itself 'I' will be gone too and all the sense perceptions are gone too, which means the physical world dissolves for 'you', nothing remains. However, man does not know everything, his field of experience is tiny, so there still remains a possibility that something remains after death, maybe an essence of you that is more or less active depending on how aware it is. Some people call it soul or higher self, and developing it is the prime goal of any spiritual path. This is a plausible hypothesis and should be explored.

There are objective aspects to the AP, which you have correctly identified, such as vibrations and other neural phenomena. These are indications that something special is happening in the brain/consciousness system while AP takes place. The fact that this is still beyond mainstream science is enough to make any rational man curious about it and start exploring.

All the best and keep us posted.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 04:24:44 by Psan » Logged
Psan
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 04:34:05 »

I forgot to add that there are techniques to simulate death without actually destroying the body and experiencing the 'thing' that remains. People have done this many times, but somehow this 'thing' can't be explained in language, it can only be experienced. One such technique is called Samadhi. There are other more difficult ones like Kundalini activation. I will write more some other time, but Google is the best way to know about these.
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 04:34:05 »



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InDepther
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 16:05:54 »

Your post was somewhat entertaining (good read and made me smile also  smiley).

First of all, I will be honest with you. Until now, I had never met an intelligent person that fears death (at least not like you do). You are the first one  tongue

Why not fear eternity instead? I think is scarier, especially if your mind can fully grasp what it means. See the “Interview with the Vampire”, if you haven’t.

Summerlander answered perfectly the portion of your question where you wonder if it is real or not: “A lie? It's no lie. The experience is real. What it is, is the real question.”. It couldn’t be said any better.

AP could be a powerful creation of our mind, or something even more. Even the reality we live in could be our minds’ creation. In my projections everything is as real as the so called “reality”. You can’t be sure of what our lives really are; could be dreams that our spirits create for entertainment or learning purposes; could be whatever. You can find some amusing ideas even in movies, like “Matrix”, “The 13th floor”, “Inception”, “Vanilla sky” etc. In my opinion, if it means anything to you, is that we don’t really die. Do not worry. I don’t think AP will give you answers to that. It is a very cool and unique experience though.

relax Smiley
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 16:07:57 by InDepther » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 16:32:26 »

I know you weren't talking to me but I felt compelled to respond.
First of all, I will be honest with you. Until now, I had never met an intelligent person that fears death (at least not like you do). You are the first one  tongue

Why not fear eternity instead?
I never feared death all my life, until recently- I'm turning 54 (my dad died at 56) and my mom passed away last year, and all of a sudden the lack of continuity in life hit me- and I felt fear of death for the first time.  It's not a problem, but it is a first for me.
Why fear eternity?  It is my belief/expectation that eternity is not a human experience- that eternity is a state that probably has nothing to do with a conscious awareness of what is (that's what our nervous system is for) and that the eternal state may be completely different than what we consider experience- that although our superconsciousness has the awareness of the 'physical now', it only does so because we have chosen to be here now in the multidimensional universe, but it occurs to me that the 'eternal state' is not perceived, or even actualized.  It's hard to conceptualize, because all the adjectives or verbs I can think of are ways of describing physical existence.  And that always has a beginning and an end.

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I think is scarier, especially if your mind can fully grasp what it means. See the “Interview with the Vampire”, if you haven’t.
Yes but vampires are not eternal, they rely on unchanging bodies, bodies that only last as their environment lasts, or is hospitable to them.  So the angst of living in a body for a very long time is not really about eternal life, it is about the very long limited life.  As scary as that is, it can end with a stake or sunlight or whatever mythos you choose.  Ann Rice took away the 'sunlight killing' them part of it, but their fear was in still having to inhabit a body while alive- they could be burned, IIRC. 


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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 16:36:16 »

Hi VXS. I "buddied" you because you said a lot that described me.  College educated, rather amused by New Age thinking, irritated by pseudo-science, more or less atheist...
I don't happen to share your great fear of death. Sure, I'm scared of pain and nasty surprises, and survival instincts are built-in for a very good reason! Remember though, the fear of something often turns out to be worse than the thing itself. If you like, do some research on NDEs, which might reassure you.

But I digress. I like your humility - however give yourself a little credit! Trying to make sense of our mortal lives is a perfectly good reason to start expanding your horizons. Your system of belief (the rational mind) has a crack in it (the "animal brain"). Welcome to the club. It's what you do with that realization that matters. And you're here, exploring ideas, instead of crawling into a hole.

Whatever success you have (and it's the journey that matters) in AP or OOBE experience will, I believe, be worth the effort. Maybe to the point where mortality doesn't bother you so much. I can say that becoming more open-minded, and forgiving, in the last couple of years has improved MY life greatly.

I don't mean to lecture. Hey, I'm 48 and just starting out. Like you, I've had spontaneous pre-projection episodes and I've found the experiences of others to be very helpful.
My sticking point sometimes is getting past the occasional fear. About half the auras are accompanied by creepy sounds / feelings / whatnot. (this is apparently normal)  If someone hadn't told me my "sleep paralysis" was, in fact, a close relative of out-of-body states, I'd probably be diagnosed with a sleep disorder and medicated right out of personal growth! I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't mind the fear because it's part of the overall package.

The vibrations are kinda cool, but they can be very intense. It took me a while to let it happen - finally out of curiosity I let it just wash over me. I didn't know about projecting yet. I thought maybe I'd had a seizure, but it was short and there was no harmful effect. It's all about going with the experience.

Well, I have to get going but welcome to the forum from a fellow newbie and please stay in touch.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 03:04:10 by Lizelle » Logged
VXS
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 18:31:24 »

Thanks everyone for the warm reception. I look forward to speaking with all of you more in the future.

I think I might have rolled out early this morning.

I spent all last night reading, watching, and thinking about Michael Raduga's materials. I definitely set a strong intention to separate upon waking, as he teaches. I went to sleep and dreamed normally. I woke up naturally at about 4:30 to go to the bathroom (I usually do this, so I did not set an alarm as the method says to.) When I came back from the bathroom and lay back down,  I thought 'try and roll out, try and separate'. I thought about the phantom wiggling and the hands method. It was actually hard to fall back asleep because my mind was racing, and my muscles were involuntarily tight as I thought about fighting to roll out.

Once again... everything that happened from this point on is just a memory, just like every other event in my life I guess actually. I REMEMBER now being there and thinking it was very vivid and realistic, although the memory seems to be distant just like a dream.

I drifted in and out of consciousness from about 4:45, when I fell back asleep, to about 8:30 AM. I do remember many unsuccessful attempts to imagine my hands moving before either drifting back off or waking up for a minute. But at one point between those hours, it happened. I rolled. For a split second I thought I had woken up and moved my actual body. It felt like my body was actually moving. I then fell to the floor on my hands and knees. Blind. I felt like I was 'out' and on the floor kneeling.

I remembered Raduga's 'deepening' methods and started to grope around myself like a blind man trying to get my bearings. I could feel my bed next to me, and my bedside table in front of my face. They felt real, like physical objects. As I made an effort to look at my hands in front of my face, my vision materialized. It felt real and vivid, I was in my room on the floor next to my bed. As I tried to walk around to the other side of my bed, I realized I could not move because I did not have any legs. I looked towards the skylight window in my room and thought if I could not walk, then I would float.

As I floated out of the skylight, through the roof of my house I felt like I was getting stuck in the wall. I also noticed the sun was out, which is strange because in hindsight it must have been dark by this hour. I kind of got stuck in the wall and could not float in further, then suddenly it felt like I jumped back to an earlier position where I was still near my bed. It was like skipping back a few frames on a dvd player. For some reason I decided to leave the room another way, since there was some sort of resistance in that direction.  I floated out of the room this time through the door (which was closed  in reality), across the hall to the other upstairs bedroom and out of the window there. I was looking straight down at the ground from the second story this time. It was dark this time, as it should have been. I thought to myself 'ok, that's enough for now' and I made the intention to return to my body and feel myself back in bed. I was back in an instant, I intuitively had no problem returning. I woke up for a second and thought "that was it, that was completely vivid and realistic...not cloudy like a dream'. I must have drifted back to sleep a few seconds later.

At no point during the experience did I look back at my body. I felt like my field of vision was limited to roughly the direction I was moving as well. I did not hear or feel any buzzing or vibration like I did in the past.

Again, I remember it being very real at the time...but now as I recall it, it seems like im just telling a story. The experience matched up a lot like I had just read about the night before. Did I just will myself into a very vivid lucid dream, imagining things that I had been thinking about earlier? It is possible...but something like that has never happened before. I am intrigued enough to continue practicing and trying to deepen the experience into higher realism and detail.
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Summerlander
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2011, 18:44:51 »

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Once again... everything that happened from this point on is just a memory, just like every other event in my life I guess actually. I REMEMBER now being there and thinking it was very vivid and realistic, although the memory seems to be distant just like a dream.

At the time it's vivid...hyper-real even. But the memory can quickly escape you. But the same can be said about waking life. You look in the yellow pages for a cab company, you ring them up and when you put the phone down, the memory of that number escapes you...(and yet you can probably remember events that happened years ago really well wink).

Here's a tip that you can use for both dreams and OOBEs: Right down the experience as soon as you wake up. Unless, of course, you plan to re-enter the Phase state after returning from an adventure. cool

By the way, have fun! You can do whatever you want. It doesn't matter whether you believe the experiences are real or not. You can communicate with dead people (whether it's true or not I don't know but it is interesting when they tell you something that checks out - happened to me before - and you can either interpret it as coincidence or validation of an afterlife), you can visit the living (again, the visited OFTEN express shock when you tell them about your experience as it makes more sense to them than you) and telepathic links are seemingly established, you can communicate with aliens, weird hooded beings, clowns, jesters, and all sorts. You can also use the Phase to learn something, practice something, improve your personality, confidence...anything you want really. The mind is the limit! smiley

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As I floated out of the skylight, through the roof of my house I felt like I was getting stuck in the wall. I also noticed the sun was out, which is strange because in hindsight it must have been dark by this hour. I kind of got stuck in the wall and could not float in further, then suddenly it felt like I jumped back to an earlier position where I was still near my bed. It was like skipping back a few frames on a dvd player. For some reason I decided to leave the room another way, since there was some sort of resistance in that direction.  I floated out of the room this time through the door (which was closed  in reality), across the hall to the other upstairs bedroom and out of the window there. I was looking straight down at the ground from the second story this time. It was dark this time, as it should have been. I thought to myself 'ok, that's enough for now' and I made the intention to return to my body and feel myself back in bed. I was back in an instant, I intuitively had no problem returning. I woke up for a second and thought "that was it, that was completely vivid and realistic...not cloudy like a dream'. I must have drifted back to sleep a few seconds later.

Hmmm...what I highlighted seems like a property of what I call a Mode 1 OOBE (here-now projection) rather than Mode 2 OOBE (metaphysical realm projection). Often movement is difficult, one usually floats, there can be mini-teleports or "mouse-trailing". You tend to experience it from a floating pair of eyes perspective. Sometimes this type makes me wonder if we actually exist everywhere (meaning mind extending beyond the physical body) and it is a case of where we focus our perspective. In this one it is almost like we pinpoint where we are gonna be. I'll quote what Rudolph said once and I really admire this: "it is not the soul that dwells in the body, but rather, the body dwells in the realm of the soul".

In Mode 2 projections, you usually have a dream body and you can walk, run but gliding through the air is also possible. In here you seem to visit non-physical worlds which can emulate the world we know and all manner of beings can be encountered. It is said that both Modes can overlap (the physical with the metaphysical - like perceiving two stations on a radio).

Anyway, these are only theoretical interpretations. The phenomenon remains elusive. But have fun exploring.


« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 19:25:42 by Summerlander » Logged
Volgerle
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 19:47:31 »

I am not entirely convinced that these are not vivid dream-states that have been influenced by what I have read.
The problem here (for me), and already in the subject line actually, is the equation you make: 'dream = not real'. Okay, many people do this. The offical mainstream view is that it (like anything else out of betawave-brainstate waking consciousness) is to be regarded pathological anyway (otherwise, you do not conform to society and are completely nuts, like me grin).
For me, the dreamstate is a state ("in the astral" or on a specific Focus level, so to speak) that is as real as any other experience that a consciousness (which is what we are) makes. I did not have this view before I started this kind of metaphysical practice. But for me it came to be the only logical conclusion. It is confirmed to me by older and contemporary literature in the fields of metaphysics / occultism / paranormal research / open-minded science and esoteric-mystic teachings.
I believe that the greatest mistake, or better: the most overlooked aspect, of all the people claiming that 'dreams are not real', is the fact that they confuse (or equate) memory (download) and ensuing interpretation attempts of an experience with the experience itself. These are two different things.
A dream is NOT what it is remembered to be. First, you only download fragments; second, you then match these fragments of experience with data on file in your own internal interpreter database (to 'make sense' out of it), which you can access during your temporary existence as a 3D-incarnated being. (And by this database I do not mean the brain, which only helps to access the database - as well as the downloaded memory in the inbox folder as the to-be-matched experience memory - via neural pathways and a kind of holographic networking, but is not the data / information storer/creator itself).
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Greytraveller
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 23:42:06 »

Hallo VXS
You started this thread with a long and very interesting post.
I just want to touch on one point that you mentioned. And that is Fear.
Yes, I know Fear sucks. But there are levels of fear and there are ways to cope with fear and live with it. I believe that the consciousness Does survive physical death. However, there will always be some measure of fear in whatever non-physical state each of us exists in. There is fear in going out of body while physically alive. (That is known as the Fear barrier btw).  Fear will still exist after the physical body has ceased to live and each of us is in the spirit. How each of us deals/copes with fear is a function of the knowledge that we learned and is a measure of our spiritual growth.
I Do realize that this IS a pretty general comment. The point that I wish to bring out is that fear is inherent in any physical or non-physical situation. Learning the "art" of out of body travel and exploring the existence of life after physical death both entail a certain amount of fear. It just goes with the territory.

Regards  cool
Grey
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Summerlander
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2011, 10:58:56 »

Yes. In fact even the most experienced can be fearful in the OOBE-state occasionally. Every induction is a step into the unknown.
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