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Author Topic: Tom Campbell, Free Will & The Afterlife  (Read 7791 times)
LoLmart
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« on: April 27, 2014, 18:20:02 »

I've heard Tom say in more than a few lectures and interviews that once we die and move to the afterlife we lose our free will and become 'just data'. The way I interprete these words is that Tom thinks that only once we incarnate from the afterlife to a specific physical reality like ours on planet Earth do we become an ICU - individuated consciousness unit. In the afterlife we are not an ICU. That's how I understand his words and I definitely don't agree with this.

 I have not heard of his arguments on the subject. He just states it from time to time and I always wonder why he holds this opinion. To me, the afterlife is just another reality frame full of ICUs that are individuated from each other by a certain type of 'body' (astral body) that is resonating at a much higher vibrational rate this is the vehicle for our consciousness by which we operate in the Afterlife. And from the Afterlife we incarnate into other realities that are not as freeform and are one layer away from the global consciousness system. To me, Tom thinks that the afterlife is just one global data bank without any ICUs (Afterlife=Global Consciousness System according to Tom) and to me, this GCS is one step away from the Afterlife. In my mind it goes like this if we start from the GCS and disregard its inception:

Global Consciousness System--->The Afterlife--->Physical Realities (like ours or more or less dense. "Physical" is just a label...). The Afterlife is the first layer to have ICUs. Before that, there is only one whole global consciousness system and the Afterlife is just one part of it. I am not saying that I am sure 100% that this is the case but I don't understand why Tom doesn't entertain the possibility that there is free will in the Afterlife. I have never heard of any argumentation of his "no free will in the Afterlife" statement. Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 18:23:30 by LoLmart » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2014, 18:50:28 »

You're thinking too physical world orientated.
Once you have a few experiences where you become one with all, you'll understand what Tom is saying.
Have you ever had an imprint within an experience? That's where an entity downloads a massive amount of information to you telepathically.
If so imagine being tied to this datastream continuously. There's no way a human mind can as standard can comprehend this. A split second is.all it takes to have the entire history of a city from a thousand years of existance. Then our minds have to decode this through an interpreter so we can understand the contents within. This alone takes hours to do and massive amounts of data supplied gets forgotten too. It gives you a headache trying to absorb it all.
Tom knows this through experiences and our individuality ceases to be eventually. We become one.
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2014, 18:50:28 »

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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 18:52:52 »

I've never heard him say there is no free will in the after life.
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LoLmart
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2014, 19:11:25 »

You're thinking too physical world orientated.
Once you have a few experiences where you become one with all, you'll understand what Tom is saying.
Have you ever had an imprint within an experience? That's where an entity downloads a massive amount of information to you telepathically.
If so imagine being tied to this datastream continuously. There's no way a human mind can as standard can comprehend this. A split second is.all it takes to have the entire history of a city from a thousand years of existance. Then our minds have to decode this through an interpreter so we can understand the contents within. This alone takes hours to do and massive amounts of data supplied gets forgotten too. It gives you a headache trying to absorb it all.
Tom knows this through experiences and our individuality ceases to be eventually. We become one.

I am not thinking too physical world oriented.

Having experiences when I become one with all isn't an argument for or against whether there is free will in the Afterlife or not. You and Tom have had this experience from the OBE state and you came there as an ICU and even if temporarily were part of the whole without free will, you are now an ICU with free will again. In a similar way, you can die and go in the Afterlife with free will as an ICU and choose to experience being part of the whole temporarily (if you know how). So this example does not serve as an argument of there being no free will in the Afterlife. It can be a temporary experience. I am talking about Tom's statement "there is no free will in the Afterlife" and " when you die you lose your free will" which implies that he considers it a permanent 'no free will' state in the Afterlife after you die.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 19:18:46 by LoLmart » Logged
LoLmart
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 19:14:26 »

I've never heard him say there is no free will in the after life.

I can remember 2 or 3 instances from his youtube vids. I am sure of it because I paid very close attention and even rewinded to be sure of what he said.
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Stillwater
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 19:28:28 »

I can think of reasons why Tom might believe that. I personally think that our time in physical lives is incredibly important, and that we would regret squandering it, especially for the opportunities it gives us to know others in a very special way.

I can't think of a time he said it, but I can picture it. Could you find a good example in one of his talks? That might provide more context to discuss the idea.
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 19:44:30 »

I can remember 2 or 3 instances from his youtube vids. I am sure of it because I paid very close attention and even rewinded to be sure of what he said.
It honestly doesn't sound like something he would say or believe.
To be an aware unit of consciousness, free will is required.

I think you're interpreting what you heard incorrectly. 
If you could find, at least, one example I could listen to, I could help you infer what was said.  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 20:49:19 »

I listen to Tom, a lot. Right off the bat I can remember him saying that if you meet your Uncle Fred in the obe state, every bit of data belonging to Uncle Fred will be there. He can tell you family secrets, etc. But ...ask him the same question a hundred times and he will give you the same answer. Ask anyone with free will the same question a hundred times and you will get slight variations in the answer.
So the 'experience packet' data of Uncle Fred is all still there, but his higher self free will consciousness has moved on or already incarnated somewhere else.
He likes to say that Uncle Fred isn't just waiting around for you to come visit. The data is there should you ever visit the realm, but it's only the experience packet of that lifetime.
Also, in case you have never heard it, he says that if you see Uncle Fred, it may or may not be another being cloaked in Uncle Fred, only to make you comfortable upon death or for a learning experience, etc.
I believe this answer is in one of the q and a sessions.
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2014, 23:47:42 »

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To be an aware unit of consciousness, free will is required.

I disagree with this bit. Why would this necessarily be the case?

Usually in philosophy, if you want to engage with a thesis like that, you would employ "thought experiments" in support, and in argument against.

Therefore, lets think of exceptions. What would an aware unit of consciousness be that lacked free will? I think I would define that entity as a "perspective". A perspective would be viewing events from a vantage point, but have no control over outcomes, like a sort of viewer, or non-participant. The perspective might be able to reason with itself, form theories or expectations, and in fact would have all of characteristics of what I would expect a "consciousness" to have. Or maybe it might lack some of those features. "Perspective-minus" would have sensory experiences, but not conduct any personal thought or analysis about them. It would be a pure "experiencer". 

Now I can think of answers to this argument I have raised, but I am curious to see what your response might be, so I won't spoil it  wink

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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 01:06:29 »

What would an aware unit of consciousness be that lacked free will?
Essentially, a computer/computer program.
The choices made by a computer/program are one of pre-programmed outcomes.  If this... then that happens... that sort of thing.

I guess it's the difference between, say, a venus fly trap and a dog.  Does the fly trap trap flies because it's making a free will choice to do so or is it just a pre-programmed action of "when a fly (something) lands on me, I close up"?

As you said, can you be an aware consciousness and not have free will to make choices?
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2014, 02:05:08 »

I listen to Tom, a lot. Right off the bat I can remember him saying that if you meet your Uncle Fred in the obe state, every bit of data belonging to Uncle Fred will be there. He can tell you family secrets, etc. But ...ask him the same question a hundred times and he will give you the same answer. Ask anyone with free will the same question a hundred times and you will get slight variations in the answer.
So the 'experience packet' data of Uncle Fred is all still there, but his higher self free will consciousness has moved on or already incarnated somewhere else.
He likes to say that Uncle Fred isn't just waiting around for you to come visit. The data is there should you ever visit the realm, but it's only the experience packet of that lifetime.
Also, in case you have never heard it, he says that if you see Uncle Fred, it may or may not be another being cloaked in Uncle Fred, only to make you comfortable upon death or for a learning experience, etc.
I believe this answer is in one of the q and a sessions.

yes, I have heard him saying this. But my issue is a little different. Regardless of what he has said, what do you, pulsers, think - do u go and remain as an ICU in the afterlife or do u just become part of the whole Global Consciousness System and once you are incarnated you become an ICU again? Tom is not God, tell me what you think and why?
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2014, 02:09:54 »

yes, I have heard him saying this. But my issue is a little different. Regardless of what he has said, what do you, pulsers, think - do u go and remain as an ICU in the afterlife or do u just become part of the whole Global Consciousness System and once you are incarnated you become an ICU again? Tom is not God, tell me what you think and why?
All I can say is that one day we will find out. You included!  wink
 
 What does it matter right now for? Someday we will find ourselves there regardless of what we think. We can't change that fact.
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2014, 02:19:24 »

That's a good point.
Does knowing what happens to *YOU* have any effect upon how you live your life now?
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2014, 02:38:51 »

I personally don't think that the multiverse is that simple as to be divided on physical, where you play a game, a transition astral where it is still virtual as Tom says and everything else that is one huge energy "ball" where individual spirits loose their identity. But again none of us have gone beyond physical death and returned to tell exactly what happens. While our energy is still attached so to speak to our physical bodies, we can't project our absolute full awareness and explore deep into the higher dimensions. Do I agree that when I met my father in the astral, he was not real as Tom says? Absolutely not. Things are a lot more complicated. There are endless realities that exist in higher vibratory rate that are stable and have all kinds of entities living there. I have communicated with many of them and have been to their worlds, which I was not able to alter, because the main elements are changed upon mass consciousness agreements. None of these were "virtual" as Tom would say. The entities were individual spirits experiencing all kinds of environments. Some more energy dense and some less. I personally don't spend much time listening to others theories, because what they experience in the astral could be interpreted in many ways depending on their logic and beliefs. So, I encourage everyone to learn to AP and evaluate the system for themselves.
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2014, 02:48:56 »

 I know people don't like to hear this and I am sorry for bring this to your realization. But, think of this. How is a person supposed to get on with next existence and lessons to be learned if they don't release the memories of their last ones?

 I hear people say they have visited with their spouse or father/mother that has transitioned over many years ago. But how could they, if their spouse/father is in a new transitional stage of their existence?

 That's one question I have always had and if you think about it "logically/reasonably" you will see why it can cause many more questions than answers.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 03:06:48 by Lionheart » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2014, 03:10:46 »

I hear people say they have visited with their spouse or father/mother that has transitioned over many years ago. But how could they, if their spouse/father is in a new transitional stage of their existence?

 

I see what you are saying, Lionheart, but on the other hand, time does not exist in the astral the way we interpret it here. People may live for what may look like a life time on earth with the same personality carried over from the previous physical life just because in the new environment there is no pain, disease and you suddenly discover all the things you can do and the friends you meet again. So, there could be societies formed because of that reason for the personality to experience some enjoinment in the new environment, but hold on to what they know from the physical life. I would not blame them if that's the case. It may take a while before things are realized and the spirits exhaust all the possibilities as this personality and decide to try something different. But even then, I don't think any old personality is ever forgotten by the soul and if someone out there calls a certain personality, the spirit can retake that form and transform into that personality again, to interact with someone who has known them.
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2014, 03:15:17 »

I see what you are saying, Lionheart, but on the other hand, time does not exist in the astral the way we interpret it here. People may live for what may look like a life time on earth with the same personality carried over from the previous physical life just because in the new environment there is no pain, disease and you suddenly discover all the things you can do and the friends you meet again. So, there could be societies formed because of that reason for the personality to experience some enjoinment in the new environment, but hold on to what they know from the physical life. I would not blame them if that's the case. It may take a while before things are realized and the spirits exhaust all the possibilities as this personality and decide to try something different. But even then, I don't think any old personality is ever forgotten by the soul and if someone out there calls a certain personality, the spirit can retake that form and transform into that personality again, to interact with someone who has known them.
...and this is exactly why it creates more questions than answers.  undecided

 It's hard to understand a scenario where time has no relevance. Simply because time is relevant here in this existence.

 I have had some great NPR journeys whereas I was living out nearly an entire existence. It went by in a blink of an eye though. Kind of like what we hear from NDErs who are undergoing a "life review" of sorts.
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2014, 04:27:54 »

I and I assume Tom are referring to the final chapter. It appears the highest level or frequency to label it, is this locale where you have no form whatsoever. You are still yourself as an individual upon arrival but when you connect this is lost in the immensity of the data. It's almost impossible to describe as the individual status inherent from the physical isn't required and seems to get dissolved as you melt into the universal totality.
You are still aware and your individual memories ect become part of the whole in as much as the whole becomes part of your awareness.
It's only a speculation on my part as the connection to the whole can be heavily filtered. I may be incorrect, the free will you have now is different in this state of conciousness.
Its similar to a three year old wanting a chocolate biscuit. It looks in the correct location to find one and there's a full banquet of world foods spread across many tables. The biscuit is there but lost in the immensity of it all. The child wouldn't have much hope in finding the correct table as it can't read and most of the foods are totally unknown.
Free will in the choice of the biscuit is useless in this place.
The child would need a guide to stand any chance of success.
It's actually far more complicated than this, you may see the dilemma here. We are not evolved enough mentally to understand.
Our interpretation of the truth is so limited we can only speculate, thats if you've had a few connections to the data.
Without these experiences or connections yourself, it would be impossible to relay anything accurately. We are three year olds in a university doing our best to learn. Many others will never experience this as their curiosity isn't aroused.
Another interesting thing is when you become proficient and AP is a natural part of your existance you begin to see that your travels are not of your free will. Once school is over you are sent out to work.
I was asked by a guide what I'd like to do. Help people that needed help, was my answer. I was 9 at that time and training for this began.
I wanted this, the free will choice being made.
Now it's most of my adventures, the free anytime flying for pleasure has long gone. On occasion I do get a trip but twice in 10 years hardly counts. Free will is not apparent once you are in the astral proper. You have a purpose to your existance and this entails work. If Tom is saying this too then it fits in with my interpretation of the experiences I've had over the last 40 or so years in the astral proper.

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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2014, 09:26:05 »

It looks like LoLmart is coming across a related truth I thought of on my own awhile back. Which is if God always makes the right decisions, or for that matter any being, and he always calculates the right judgment. Then is he robotic with no true free will, since all of his judgments can be calculated and reasoned out? So the question becomes, well what is free will exactly exactly?  huh
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2014, 16:00:57 »

Quote
Essentially, a computer/computer program.
The choices made by a computer/program are one of pre-programmed outcomes.  If this... then that happens... that sort of thing.

Yes, but the common idea of a computer doesn't include sense experiences; I think people largely think of computers as a set of mechanical actions occurring by determinate laws. It is funny that you bring that example up, because a lot of the contemporary philosophers of mind-body issues are debating what the criteria for determining a conscious computer would be, and how we could be sure they were having sense experiences, or "qualia" as some other earlier philosophers would call them.

I guess what I am getting at though is that I am trying to form a theory for what defines a consciousness, and what parts are absolutely necessary and core to the definition. For instance, I would surmise that in order to be a consciousness, that something would have to something they were conscious of. It seems to me that that awareness could be either subject oriented or object oriented. A subject oriented awareness would be an awareness that has its own thoughts- its existence is thus self-defined in a narrow sense. An object oriented awareness is aware of things outside itself, namely sense experiences of some kind. To me, these are the only basic criteria for being a simple consciousness, and to have one is sufficient, although a somewhat complex being as ourselves has both and many other attributes.

I think this consciousness you were describing earlier, sounds very much like the classical definition of an "ethical agent". Namely, an ethical agent needs both awareness, and the real ability to make a choice between meaningful alternatives in order to be responsible for making actual ethical decisions (this is opposed by a determinate agent, which although may appear to make choices, is not, and is thus not responsible or culpable for good or bad effects its actions cause).

I am probably quibbling a bit, but the distinctions seem very significant, especially considering that we are all directly engaged in consciousness studies here.
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deepspace
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 21:22:44 »

Great discussion going on here and there's so much to comment on.

In this physical life we connect free will so much with our identity. Our experience here is almost purely "individual", whereas our existence in the next life IMO is much more "collective". It's easy to see the loss of freedom and individuality as the end of our true existence because these things define us here. But I also think we are making a pretty big sacrifice to have this experience of separation and individuality here in the physical. While I have no direct memory of what it was like where we came from, I am well aware of the deprivation that is part of this journey.

Who we are and what we experience here are defined to a large degree by our choices and the choices of others. Free will seems to be very important in this existence for our growth, but my guess is that we will lose at least some of it after we leave here. A lot of other people, many NDErs also think this is correct. Many think that as we reach a higher level of consciousness, we lose more and more of our individual identity and eventually merge completely into the source. Of course we will all have to find out for ourselves.

It's important to point out that free will is really a two-edged sword and there are a lot of negative consequences living here in what I would call a "choice driven reality". I think the afterlife is not individual free-will experience like here, but a level of pure shared existence (not sure I can really describe or comprehend it).

I heard Tom's views on "data" after basically coming to the same conclusion myself. I have already some exposure to this in AP and had quite a few of what I would call "experience downloads" or data dumps where I just basically absorbed every detail of an experience simultaneously. It's often conceptual knowledge or information that's just directly "ingested" for lack of a better word. Then try to sort it all out and translate it, often not even possible. My guess is that we will have full access to this in the next phase.  
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 21:41:18 by deepspace » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2014, 04:28:12 »

Great discussion going on here and there's so much to comment on.

In this physical life we connect free will so much with our identity. Our experience here is almost purely "individual", whereas our existence in the next life IMO is much more "collective". It's easy to see the loss of freedom and individuality as the end of our true existence because these things define us here. But I also think we are making a pretty big sacrifice to have this experience of separation and individuality here in the physical. While I have no direct memory of what it was like where we came from, I am well aware of the deprivation that is part of this journey.

Who we are and what we experience here are defined to a large degree by our choices and the choices of others. Free will seems to be very important in this existence for our growth, but my guess is that we will lose at least some of it after we leave here. A lot of other people, many NDErs also think this is correct. Many think that as we reach a higher level of consciousness, we lose more and more of our individual identity and eventually merge completely into the source. Of course we will all have to find out for ourselves.

It's important to point out that free will is really a two-edged sword and there are a lot of negative consequences living here in what I would call a "choice driven reality". I think the afterlife is not individual free-will experience like here, but a level of pure shared existence (not sure I can really describe or comprehend it).

I heard Tom's views on "data" after basically coming to the same conclusion myself. I have already some exposure to this in AP and had quite a few of what I would call "experience downloads" or data dumps where I just basically absorbed every detail of an experience simultaneously. It's often conceptual knowledge or information that's just directly "ingested" for lack of a better word. Then try to sort it all out and translate it, often not even possible. My guess is that we will have full access to this in the next phase. 

Love your thoughts here deepspace. This casts a much more positive light on the concept IMO. I think ultimately if the idea of "losing free will" as we may put it is troubling to someone, they should just stop thinking about it. Because everyone who has an NDE (and I mean everyone) is so blown away by the reality of the "Afterlife" that they do not want to come back. It's indescribably better than this physical reality in their opinion. So I highly doubt that we could go from this life into the next and have a big downgrade in the quality of our experience. I think if we do lose most of our "free will" once we pass from this physical life, it will probably be an incredibly beautiful experience. Not something to be afraid of.
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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2014, 01:26:42 »

Love your thoughts here deepspace. This casts a much more positive light on the concept IMO. I think ultimately if the idea of "losing free will" as we may put it is troubling to someone, they should just stop thinking about it. Because everyone who has an NDE (and I mean everyone) is so blown away by the reality of the "Afterlife" that they do not want to come back.

I've never had an NDE, but I already know enough to understand why they don't want to come back. On some level, I think we're all aware of what we're missing and there is desire inside each one of us that can not be fulfilled here. It's to the point of physical pain at times. In a way, NDErs have it worse and I think a lot of them suffer from depression.

I think free will and choice is all part of the experience of separation we came here for. To have this experience requires subjecting ourselves to damage and we all kind of get "beat-up" here. This is something else I'm aware of, my vehicle already has high mileage. It makes sense to me that there would have to be some sort of recovery phase we go through after we leave here. I'm pretty sure that I will have to go in for some repairs after this. smiley
 

« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 01:29:47 by deepspace » Logged

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