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Author Topic: a guide to RTZ-OBEs from LDs  (Read 8121 times)
cube
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« on: July 31, 2004, 02:53:09 »

That is very interesting about the stabilizing clock displays, why is it do you think that they eventually stabilize instead of continually fluxuating?

RB talks about walking into photos during a projection in order to teleport there. That would be an RTZ->RTZ teleportation.

Do you think that if someone made a picture of their impressions of somewhere in the higher astral planes you could just print out the picture and walk into it in order to have an RTZ->Higher plane teleportation?
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upstream
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2004, 08:56:16 »

I suppose it won't work but we have to test it to be sure. Have you got some idea for an experiment?
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cube
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2004, 13:26:36 »

I'm going to try printing out a picture of the API, shine a flashlight on it, then try walking into it in a projection:

http://www.astralpulse.com/locale/

I haven't had a full projection lately, just a lot of wake/sleep boundary type experimentation so maybe I'm due to have a controlled OBE soon and I can try this.

There's also this guy who reportedly can send a projector on to higher planes:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/LucidCrossroads/gatekeeper.htm
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upstream
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2004, 16:19:24 »

quote:
That is very interesting about the stabilizing clock displays, why is it do you think that they eventually stabilize instead of continually fluxuating?
Because I've observed that countless occasions. They could show the real time even when they are not at their right place or has a changed look. I have to hypothesis to explain this mystery: 1. those clocks are not real but there is something in our mind that know the time all the time. The syncronisation of our inner-knowledge and the picture of the clock outside help we to believe that we indeed having an RTZ-OBE which is, as I said before, necessery to hold the RTZ-state. 2. the filaments of the semi-condensed energy body keep contact with the displays although their transmitted sensory informations remain heavily interpretated, thus guised. I suspect that somehow both of these hypothesis could be right, because our inner and outer experiences aren't separated so keenly as we tend to think.

I have to say that the gatekeeper guy from that site is very suspicious. He really looks like he is on something right now. He's even bald like RB. But seriously, it is an interesting idea. I mean, creating a virtual guy then declaring that he is able to transport anyone where he or she wants to be, is genuine. People will believe in that and it will happen. But their experiences will remain hopelessly as it is, a lucid dream.

However, if sufficient aspects of those dreams would be match with anothers' by using a common entrance point like the image of the API then the dream could be shared. In this sense RTZ-OBEs are shared dreams too, they are shared by our waking society.

Please keep me posted here or in PM about the results of your experiments.
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Gandalf
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2004, 11:44:58 »

upstream_

Thanks for the article!

In my view, I find that people get too hung up on trying to establish what is an 'astral projection' from what is a 'lucid dream', from what is a 'normal dream'.

imo, all the above experiences are in fact THE SAME THING. They are ALL astral experiences; even normal dreams are subconscious scenarios being played out on the astral level, albeit on a low level.

The actual difference between them is YOUR OWN LEVEL OF CONSCIOUS AWARENESS. If you enter with almost zero conscious awareness, this s 'dream' level; we do this every night. A little more and it is called a lucid dream, and if you enter fully awake, then you are APing. Entering fully 'awake' or with full conscious awareness is the goal of ap techniques.

I think it is important to realize that the real difference is in fact your own level of conscious awareness, as then you begin to see that you DO in fact have a (low level) astral experience every night, and that in fact, you CAN do it. Achieving astral states does not seem so daunting in future if you see it in this way.

Also you avoid the false issue of 'was it really ap or just a dream?'. Instead you see that they are one and the same; however, you might set yourself the goal of increasing your awareness next time you are out.
imo the expression 'it was just a dream' is one of the worst in the language. People generally take 'dreams' for granted and have no idea of their true nature.

A good tip I recommend is next time you find yourself out of body or even waking up from a 'dream'; ie your level of conscious awareness rises one night:
Ask aloud for mental clarity... sounds daft I know, but if you ask for it, I have found that your level of awareness does indeed rise to waking level.
Once this is done you can dismiss your immediate astral surroundings, which is a scenario generated by your subconscious mind (what you call 'dream' level), you will find yourself in the astral proper, or even in the RTZ floating around somewhere.

Regards,
Douglas
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upstream
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2004, 16:59:17 »

Thanks for your feedback, it's a great complement for my guide. I agree with you in many aspect except three....

1. I think dreams and astral projections are different. Speaking in the terms of The Monroe Institue (which popularity is increasing
in this forum) normal dreams occur in upper-mid Focus 22. The startpoint of my guide is the lower F22 which is the result of getting conscious control on a false awakening type state. "Real astral experiences" tend to occur above F23.

2. You could hallucinate an entire dreamscape with full awareness.

3. By speaking your intent out loud you're able to raise your awareness above its waking level, however without enough "sensory surface" to grasp into chance for waking up fully will increase with every passing moment.

I think I didn't emphasize this awareness thing enough only mentioned it. So the following is a complement to my guide.

If I raise my level of awareness, the dream environment will gradually become frayed around me. First dream characters will disappear. They don't like it, so they will try to disturb my practice. To avoid that I lock my dream room (enclosed practices) or I'll fly to the roof of my house (which could be the starting place of the outdoor practices).

As a result of increasing my awareness by slow counting, my vision become instable. This occurs in jumps so I'd better to keep my perception in constant sync with the rapidly changing dream. For that purpose I try to notice all the changes on fly and grab objects around me to anchor myself into the dream. If I do the awareness rising for a prolonged period of time eventually I would wake up or I have to re-separate again from my slumbering body to avoid waking up. However, this reseparation takes place again into low F22, because after separation I'll find myself temporally blind and couldn't get vision again before my state reach the stable visual environment of F22, the dream state. This is a pseudo-OBE, controlled false awakening that occurs in a hallucinated room and won't result in RTZ-projection.

Normally I do the awareness raising on the balcon of my house. At the same time I move my attention between points of the hallucinated balcoon and the space outside in order to keep myself grounded into the dream. My balcon is the F21 "landing unit" of my F22 "spaceship" which is my hallucinated house. When quality of the space I look upon from the balcon get the quality of enormous depths I would know I've reached F21 from from outside as opposed to the normal phasing process at which F21 is reached on a "centrifugal vector", from the body through a window of the mind's eye. Nevertheless, both cases will result in 3D blackness but by rising awareness the 3D blackness will surround the remeiniscent of my hallucinated house.

F21 is the edge of space and time as we know it. You could see various entrance structures to various states of consciousness in the form by which your brain interpret them. The brain should be highly active in this state according to the fast fourier analysis of the TMI F21 preset (see last post @ http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13338&whichpage=1[url]) perhaps in order to interpret the various energy structures that we can perceive from this state. According to my theory about fluctocondensation in this state your "energy body" is a highly decondensated energy field meaning that its size should be commensurate with the size of the Earth's magnetopshere.By using those entrance structures I can zoom into the "deep astral" (see for example my trip into "crap heaven" @ [url]http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13578), or, as a second option, I could further condensate my energy body by the enclosed (see my guide) or outdoor practices. Along by the process the energy body will decrease in size and increase in density to the point it is able to interact with dense energy fields of "physical" objects. Normally, the dreamer couldn't observe this process directly, though my hypothesis is based exactly on those anomalous experiences.

In F21 there are two options ahead of me to getting real experiences: 1. I could order my system to manifest the symbol of my target into the space then I zoom onto it by fixing my attention on and carefully avoiding flying at the same time; or 2. I could go back to my house to practice enclosed fluctocondensation in a sensory secure environment just as I've described in my guide.

I hope people will understand the significance of this practices, that are, as I see it, the missing link from the current knowledge of astral explorers. I'm sure many would understand this and it would be obvious from now without remembering me or the fact that this guide was ever written.

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rantboi
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2004, 17:15:54 »

Upstream, maybe if you wrote in a more reader-friendly fashion (which might or might not include 'plain' english), more people would reply to this thread.

Unless your goal is to only have intelligent dicussions with like-minded people, and not to inform those 'plain' folks who need help with astral projection or whatever.

Just trying to see what your goal is when posting these things...

-Ater

PS: From my experince, most people aren't overly obsessed with science. On the contrary, it bores them.
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Gandalf
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2004, 23:55:34 »

Rantboi_ I agree with you to a certain extent, but at the same time I also like to see good 'left brained' astral exploration as described by Upstream, even if it involves a more focused reading.

Thanks for your input Upstream.

Douglas
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2004, 21:57:01 »

Gandalf, I agree, but if his goal is to reach the 'regular' folks, he should probably take it down a notch.

Upstream, I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that. Just telling you what I think could improve your response with the more regualr folk. (If they are your goal audiance.)

-Ater

PS: I feel b*tchy.[Cool]
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2004, 14:15:27 »

Perhaps the text is little demanding, but hey, the goal isn't lesser. It's a guide about how to project into the real-time zone in order to break through the veil of hallucination and let astral projections possible.

I'm aware the fact that this guide may not for everyone, however, no doubt in my mind, people who need this information would find it at the right time and would understand it properly. Spreading informations is the purpose of this forum. Isn't it?

Also, this thread is indeed for informing people, not for conversation. Why? Because it's a guide. I've done my best to explain what I'm doing and what for. I've tried to give some hypothesis how those might supposed to work as well.

If something is not clear about it I might answer, because this information is very important. However, it would be better if everyone would understand it on his own and would find further application themselves. This practice speaks for itself, try it if you are interested. At that point conversation would be more than nice - I want to learn new tricks too.

See, I got a promise: if I get my job done I would evolve further. So I done my best by appling a strategy which now seems to failed. I have no talent nor time to explain myself in plain English. As you see, I have even great difficulties with the grammar. So I've chosen a language that was felt most appropriate. It is free from personal interpretations - almost exact like science. Unfortunately, it is far from science but still boring.

Look, we have to work very hard for our extasy. That means study, understanding and exercises in our waking hours in order to being able to enjoy ourselves in the astral without all that ballast. Logical thinking is the human way to understand ourselves and the world around. Mixing scientific understanding with mysticism could be our future.

If someone take the time to understand this guide would see that its essence is actually very simple. I've just tried to squeeze into it as much supporting information as I could. I'm in hurry, from September I wouldn't much time to posting here.

Did you take the time to understand my reply Rantboy? I don't think so. Just look at the time of our posts...

But we remain friends. Chrew it! To solve this abrupt tension...hihi...check out this link...it's for you.

http://img1.uploadimages.net/305366h.jpg

Is it good, isn't it?
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rantboi
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2004, 15:35:51 »

quote:
Did you take the time to understand my reply Rantboy? I don't think so. Just look at the time of our posts...


Everything went fine until I came to this line. Why wouldn't I take the time to understand? (BTW, it's 'rantboi,' and if that's hard, just call me Ater.)

 
quote:
Is it good, isn't it?


It was okay. I didn't really laugh much.[8D]

-Ater
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2004, 16:31:09 »

That pic somehow got me. I especially like the guy's demanding look. He seems disciplined but probably in a wrong way. Maybe this is the case with me.

Stay away from this thread until you get some constructive, Ater. Your second input was useless, obviously driven by anger or frustration or something else I don't want to contact with. If you still need to say something send me a PM. (The mistype of your name wasn't deliberated).

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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2004, 12:36:21 »

quote:
Stay away from this thread until you get some constructive, Ater.


You're the only one who's getting a bit uncounstructive in this thread. Instead of acting like an adult to discuss the things I kindly brought up, you resort to attacking me.

Just to make things clear: You have no right to tell me where I should or shouldn't post. This is a public forum. You posted a thread. I had a few questions. You decided to attack me for no apparent reason. Unless you can lock the threads you don't want me to respond to, I have every right to post where ever I want.[Wink]

-Ater

PS: If you have any more personal attacks, please send them to my PM box.
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2004, 18:55:22 »

[image]http://img1.uploadimages.net/224304fireman.jpg[/image]

You're right, Ater. No more personal attack, I promise. This post is dedicated to you..

Tom wrote:
quote:
I have often wondered how much of our perception in reality relies on sensory inoput. If putting a number on it, it would not surpise me if 1% sensory input, and 99% imagination is enough to keep us stabalized and locked into "physical" perception.
I too won't be surprised but heard the estimated ratio of 1/9. We may have to consider the possibility that the external world isn't exactly the way it appears to be. The brain uses very little sensory input to create the world. According to some modern theory about sight visual perception is more like a special form of dreaming, an upstream of memories.
 
Along with the fact that fixed gazing in lucid dreams will stop rapid eye movements and rock REM sleep, hindering the reflux of memories by disregarding peripheral sensory input could serve as an explanation for the vulnerability of dream objects. For example, after we get used to a new home change of objects/furnitures could be totally unnoticed. It's quite possible that we walk inside the mental representations of our homes even in our waking hours, and in this case our real environment isn't much differing from the F22 "landing unit." Or at least isn't, until someone take the effort to broke the reflux by forcing silence and mindully observing his environment. This would be more powerfull if one combined with fixed gazing (trakata). I have some intersting experiences about eye fixation in both states (in wakfulness mostly via mirror gazing) that led me to conclude that in this sense there are no much differences between waking and dreaming.

I have had the impression countless of times - mosty after separating into an instable dream room - that my environment is changing somehow just over my capacity to catch it in action. The feeling of being in an ad hoc reality in very uncomfortable but there are many machanism designed to hide that state (my favorite: being unable to see). At first, I didn't understand why this effect would wear off by time I spend in a given lucid dream. Later I realised that not my perception got better by time but my lucidity is lessened, because every time when I've done some sensory exercises I got aware that gloomy feeling again. It is like being enclosed in a bubble that in could be the result of a greater stream of refluxed memories we used to have in our waking states.

The central and peripheral part of our vision seem governed by different aspects of our consciousness. The central vision could be our exclusive window onto "external reality." It is a frustratingly little spot and the brain does various trick to hide this fact alone. Thinking about this makes me feel enclosed and squeezed into a very limited reality. Perhaps peripheral vision even doesn't exist in this context, because it is obviously ruled by subconscious processes and serve as a playground for the reflux of sensory memories. Paradoxically it seems to be a more authentic door for our perception. It's a widespeard belief that peripheral vision is the favorite place for spirits to manifest onto.

It could be turn out that we are unable to perceive other than our preprogrammed shematas. It is like playing Worms 3D on the Net. Every player has a computer capable to dechiper and display in 3D those very little data stream that responsible for creating visual coherence of the shared game. It is like we would be maniacs in the end of our personal tunnels, or we would be gigantic beings that seeing the same peepshow through their little personalised holes. I want to turn my attention away from this hole, because I desperately yearn for a more brighter and broader room to exist in. Funny that I try to accomplish it by spending so many hours looking to a monitor or the darkness behind my closed eyes. But the most important practices I know that serve this purpose are those I written in my guide - thanks for Castaneda. Dreaming could be the preferred way to free ourself from the world-illusion. I suppose it could be accomplished by 10-30 years of practice, so I need about 3-23.

One of the simplest method to check the realness of our experiences is fixating our gazes. In astral projections sensory processing is supposedly inaffected by the brain and physical eyes are motionless, thus fixating dream gaze doesn't matter at all. The practice of serial zooming as I've described at the end of my guide (outdoor practices) could work as a gentle force for gradually stopping REM sleep without loosing visuals. The first station is the RTZ somwhere between REM & NREM sleep. The brain is still very active but not as much as in F21 or lucid dreaming.

F21 could be reached by increasing awareness and expectation for seeing through the veil of hallucinations. If I get a sight of an astral object in F21 and able to zoom to it my brain should drop into deep sleep within a couple of seconds - a trick we are unable to do from wakfulness. At that point movements of "astral eyes" will be detached from they biological counterparts which become motionless in NREM. According to my theory about binaural entertainment (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13338&whichpage=1) exclusively higher brain areas are targeted by wave patterns of F23-F27 in order to shut down the cortex into 4Hz. This amount of cortical syncronisation (low theta) makes those acute perceptions & sharp cognition totally impossible that one used to experience in any regular astral projection. This means that astral projections are very little if any to do with the brain.

If one able to set up an experiment in which the subject need to use his higher mental functions to solve a problem that require great amount of real time even a simple EEG-monitoring session would prove or disprove astral projection. (I plan to bring an EEG to home and check out this transitions. It would be interesting to monitor hippocampal activity too to figure out whether download of astral memories are occur on fly or after/around awakening. True nature of OBEs & Phasing could be revolve around the results.) Normally OBE type astral experiences are squezzed into moments of our "real time". They are flashes of vison that require mind split to get downloaded but I've read a TMI script about someone who channeled his experiences on fly. Obviously there were no loss of memories except those that were not verbalised. What does it mean? Another dissociaton between brain parts? I still advise Matti Pitkänen writings about semi-trance http://ftp://rock.helsinki.fi/pub/misc/matpitka/cbooknew/semitrancec.pdf. According to him some "brain parts" (my note: not anatomical parts but "dispersed" functional units) are able to dissociate and get "asleep" or entangled with our Higher Selves while others remain "awake" and channel the experience. If this is possible we have something we need to think about Tom because our favorite matter, connection between OBE & Phasing seems to revolve around those experiences.

quote:
It makes one wonder what the stabilzing characteristics of RTZ consist of.
In an RTZ-OBE central vision is somewhat "blurred" (or more precisely it is very difficult to observe). As opposed to dreaming periferal vision seems to be responsible for state stabilizaton that, as I suspect, is the result of a "sensory feedback." The stabilizing effect of sensory feedback is supposed to work in the following loop-mechanism: (1) the energy body "perceives" the object through interaction between their overlapping energy fields, (2) something in our mind/brain translate the raw sensory input into the most appropriate dream picture (there is lesser interpretation thus more objectivity when the "condensation degrees" of the interacting fields are matching), and (3) driven by the expectation that things can not disappear our sensory system try to hold the state of energy body that makes this perception possible thus stabilizing its current state. The three components form a feedback loop mechanism that will decrease in effect as the experience become more contamined by hallucinations. The energy body start to fluctuate and eventually the state that responsible for RTZ-perception will collapse. Density of the energy body will rapidly decrease accompained by increasing uncertainity of its localisation (process of decondensation from F12). As a result of decondensation new types of fields come into view or the old ones are become so heavily interpreted that cannot be considered otherwise than hallucination. Of course it is only a hypothesis and currently I see no way for validation.

Thanks for the DeGracia writings. It is interesting seeing him joined to the LaBerge team. I've read his book, 'do OBE' - he was obviously a stone occultist at that time... How did you get that picture of my camel, Krapulax? Have you found him? Feed him with carrots and he will let you to sleep with him. Anyways, thanks for your wife for the photo she sent to me. Seems you and you guide make some serious efforts in F10 (ref. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13528).

[image]http://img1.uploadimages.net/879984f10.jpg[/image]


Sad to see you cut your sideburns...

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upstream
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2004, 16:24:09 »

"Wakefulness is nothing other than a dream-like state modulated by the constraints of sensory inputs." That definately sounds like something I would say, but it was, in fact Rudolfo Llinas, Professor of Physiology and Biophysics at New York University, School of Medicine. It was difficult to find him because I've remembered him as Rudolf Leonard.

I've found a relevant paper by Google with the following keywords: <"rudolfo llinas" dreaming> @:
http://mind.ucsd.edu/papers/diss/disshtml/chapter3/ch3.html
For my cybernetic approach, especially the section 3.4 is interesting.

An another shot of wisdom from Ramesh Jain: "Perception is basically a controlled hallucination process."

That's enough for now. I'm sure you as a clinical psychologist (and enthusiastic but amateur hypnotist like many of us) are already know about hypnodisk, but others might be surprised and have some fun with it. It can be downloaded from this link:

http://www.hypnotic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/freeserve/hypno2.exe

Double click on the downloaded file and choose target directory to unzip (for example: 'C:'). I've scanned it with Avast! 4.0 HE and found no virus inside. Double click on the unzipped hypno.exe file then press space. You'll see a vortex. Stare into the middle for about 1 min then stare into your face in a mirror or simply look down on your hand.

Thanks for your inputs Tom. I've understand and agree with you. Now I want to paint something...

Seems you do remember me from my previous nick, s***stream...  Just to know: my anal intruder electrodes are almost ready. I'll shake people into lucidity from behind regardless to how fat, lazy one is or being in the state of thinking about sex, consumption or finding the romantic love of his/her life all the time! Be prepared.

>>> upstream
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