The Astral Pulse
News: Acceptable Use Policy for the forums, and please read and ensure that you remain within their provisions. Thank you.
Astral Pulse main site: http://www.astralpulse.com
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 03, 2008, 00:34:04


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Drugs  (Read 4899 times)
FEMMSTARR
Astral Energy 2
**

Karma: 1
Offline Offline

Posts: 58


View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2005, 07:33:58 »

Quote from: Ben K
Drugs allow for a more subjective reality. Depending on the drug there are different levels of subjectivity, and different senses involved. I think, for example, Acid affects your visual senses, ie. hallucinations. It also affects your audio(so im told, never done it ;P) in the form of audio hallucinations. Much weaker drugs, like marijuana, offer barely any subjectivity, but it is still there in some forms.(Eating maybe? Grin)

Some people like this. Some people op for the more objective reality. Some are scared of the unkown. But it is not anyones right to tell anyone else what to and what not to put in there bodies.

Just my 2 sense.


I agree with you on this if people want to say no to drugs they will and if not they wont and I consider it their business if they want to do them

I havent been using anything to help me astral and I have been working on doing it on purpose as opposed to just finding myself out sometimes

and I am getting there slowly but surely have made it out a few times in the last couple of months but my work got interrupted when I was in the hospital for almost a month so now I am having to start all over

that saying if you dont use it you will lose it is true in my case  Cheesy
Logged
Ben K
Astral Energy 3
***

Karma: 1
Offline Offline

Posts: 445


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2005, 10:56:25 »

Quote from: jilola
Perhaps the correct metaphor in regard to entheogenic drugs is Mt. Everest, a helicopter and what happens when one gets suddenly  dumped on top on the said mountain.
Altitude sickness. Eh?

The point being, one can get there in many ways but some are less drastic tha others and the same more constructive.

One can get to the Titanic hugging an anchor and in a submarine. Choose.

2cents & L&L
Jouni


The fact of the matter is you cant. You say "Ah yes, drugs are only a shortcut" when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs. Drugs are an experiance, and there "mystic" nature draws alot of people who simply are too rooted in there objective reality to want to experiance something like an acid trip. But im not going to preach to them, its there business.

If one is smart and can see drugs for what they really are, i believe its fine. The real danger is when someone say, thinks they become a shaman because they have crazy visuals when they trip on muhsrooms. Theres no enlightenment to be found in drugs. Only if you create it.
Logged

EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE
data
Astral Energy 2
**

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2005, 13:46:33 »

Well prolonged  usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.  Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasent effects. So there is something inheretly not good about drugs.

To me, personally, it's like saying which poison is good for you, or if someone wants to ingest poison, should I stop them. At the end of the day I believe everyone should have the right to make their choices, and if that is their choice, then no one has a right to stop them, but every right to tell them why they think it is wrong.
Logged
jilola
Astral Energy 5
*****

Karma: 8
Offline Offline

Posts: 1452

143173721 jilola
View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2005, 15:09:46 »

Quote
You say "Ah yes, drugs are only a shortcut" when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs

Didn't say they are just] a short cut or a shortcut at all.
The bit about trying to reach the Titanic should've been the clue.

No worries though. I've with you in that I agree drugs will never (hardly ever at anyy rate)  yield any useable results. Just like freediving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.

2cents & L&L
Jouni
Logged
Ben K
Astral Energy 3
***

Karma: 1
Offline Offline

Posts: 445


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2005, 21:26:21 »

Quote from: data
Well prolonged  usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.  Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasent effects. So there is something inheretly not good about drugs.


No pain no gain Wink

But saying there is something inherently not good about drugs is saying there is something inherently not good about a knife. It all depends on the person. And most drugs are only dangerous when

1. You dont know what you are doing

2. You know the drugs is particularly harmful/habit forming but do it anyway(crack, etc)

Dependency is a funny word. If you mean you need the drug to create the normal chemicals the body would create anyway, then yes, that can be bad. But the brain will start to create these chemicals again after you stop taking the drug for awhile. If you mean you "need the drug to get through the day" type thing, eh i guess it depends on the situation.

It all comes down to moderation. Just like everything else in life. And as long as you know that drugs are not expanded awareness in a capsule or such youll be fine.
Logged

EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE
Ben K
Astral Energy 3
***

Karma: 1
Offline Offline

Posts: 445


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2005, 21:29:40 »

Quote from: Ben K
Quote from: data
Well prolonged  usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.  Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasent effects. So there is something inheretly not good about drugs.


No pain no gain Wink

But saying there is something inherently not good about drugs is saying there is something inherently not good about a knife. It all depends on the person. And most drugs are only dangerous when

1. You dont know what you are doing

2. You know the drugs is particularly harmful/habit forming but do it anyway(crack, etc)

Dependency is a funny word. If you mean you need the drug to create the normal chemicals the body would create anyway, then yes, that can be bad. But the brain will start to create these chemicals again after you stop taking the drug for awhile. If you mean you "need the drug to get through the day" type thing, eh i guess it depends on the situation.

It all comes down to moderation. Just like everything else in life. And as long as you know that drugs are not expanded awareness in a capsule or such youll be fine.


Quote
Didn't say they are just] a short cut or a shortcut at all.
The bit about trying to reach the Titanic should've been the clue.

No worries though. I've with you in that I agree drugs will never (hardly ever at anyy rate) yield any useable results. Just like freediving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.


Haha, its all good. I dont mean just you necessarily, but alot of people attitudes are drugs are a "shortcut" or a "taste" of what you can achieve. While yes, what you can achieve through hard work and focus is 20x better than anything that can happen to you while you are on LSD, it is probably impossible to create the chemicals that lsd creates in your brain on your own.

And as for results from taking them, usually its just a good time!  Cool
Logged

EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE
jilola
Astral Energy 5
*****

Karma: 8
Offline Offline

Posts: 1452

143173721 jilola
View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2005, 22:33:47 »

Quote
Haha, its all good. I dont mean just you necessarily, but alot of people attitudes are drugs are a "shortcut" or a "taste" of what you can achieve. While yes, what you can achieve through hard work and focus is 20x better than anything that can happen to you while you are on LSD, it is probably impossible to create the chemicals that lsd creates in your brain on your own


No worries. The thing I suspect you were hinting at is that one needs to bear in mind that drugs are more like a photograph of of the Sistine Chapel, not the thing itself. Thus it's a fallacy to expect any drug to do anything other than to give a glimpse of what can ge achived. The work still has to be done to reach it.

Fun, yes. A quick look at a (not the) goal, yes. A means to an end, yes. A solution, no. An escape, no.
And let's not even breach the subject of nonentheogenic drugs (or physiogenics as I like to call them.) Those are just bad bad news and no two ways about it.

User beware, eh?

2cents & L&L
Jouni
Logged
data
Astral Energy 2
**

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2005, 01:57:50 »

Quote
But saying there is something inherently not good about drugs is saying there is something inherently not good about a knife. It all depends on the person. And most drugs are only dangerous when

1. You dont know what you are doing

2. You know the drugs is particularly harmful/habit forming but do it anyway(crack, etc)


Well, if you are arguing it all in intention of use, I think that is largely out of your control, because drugs are base on chemicals, that elicit physical  reactions in the body and mind. If you use any drug, particularly class A and class B, it will have harmful effects. Now, sometimes, those who don't experience side effects, may claim that this clears them of harmful effects, however we know that after a certain use or dosage, they do cause harmful effects in many. While, it may not seem obvious, because the effects are not manifest on the surface, it is likely there are subtle unconscious and physiological effects. Hence, why I say, they are inherently bad.

If tiny bad things are allowed to accumulate, they will eventually amount into something much bigger. This can be anything from bad cholestrol, drugs, alcohol, nicotine, drugs, stress, anger etc

Now in terms of the non physical effects, according to healers, in particular a NASA scientist who wrote the book "Hands of light" she reported how  there were certain  disfigurations in the aura of smokers and drug users. Now, even though I have no way to verify this, but as a general rule of thumb for me, everytime we circumvent nature and use substances that compromise our control over our mind, we are harming ourselves.  So I would not be surprised if drugs were actually harming the soul. Now, I needn't argue how harmful drugs are.  They are harmful.

Even drugs used in western medicine can be harmful. Drugs, in general, are harmful.

Quote
Dependency is a funny word. If you mean you need the drug to create the normal chemicals the body would create anyway, then yes, that can be bad. But the brain will start to create these chemicals again after you stop taking the drug for awhile. If you mean you "need the drug to get through the day" type thing, eh i guess it depends on the situation.


Most drugs, even some legal medicinal drugs, can cause what is called psychological and/or physical dependence. Some people, may only have to take a drug once or twice, before they become addicted. It depends mostly on the drug being used.

Quote
It all comes down to moderation. Just like everything else in life. And as long as you know that drugs are not expanded awareness in a capsule or such youll be fine.


It is not quite as simple. If I took poison in moderation, it's not quite the same as taking alcohol or nicotine in moderation.
Logged
Ben K
Astral Energy 3
***

Karma: 1
Offline Offline

Posts: 445


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2005, 05:33:05 »

Quote from: jilola


User beware, eh?

2cents & L&L
Jouni


Buy the ticket, take the ride...

Quote
Well, if you are arguing it all in intention of use, I think that is largely out of your control, because drugs are base on chemicals, that elicit physical reactions in the body and mind. If you use any drug, particularly class A and class B, it will have harmful effects. Now, sometimes, those who don't experience side effects, may claim that this clears them of harmful effects, however we know that after a certain use or dosage, they do cause harmful effects in many. While, it may not seem obvious, because the effects are not manifest on the surface, it is likely there are subtle unconscious and physiological effects. Hence, why I say, they are inherently bad.

If tiny bad things are allowed to accumulate, they will eventually amount into something much bigger. This can be anything from bad cholestrol, drugs, alcohol, nicotine, drugs, stress, anger etc


how can you elicit a physical reaction in your non physical mind?

Yes, drugs do harm your physical body to an extent, i wasnt arguing that. But everything you put into your body is harmful to a certain extent. The only subtle unconsious and psychcological effects would be magnifying problems you already have. ie. if your depressed, it isnt going to help. And usually, problems dealing with drugs come from the person either obtaining them, or reacting badly to the drug.(There is a risk factor in everything you do in life.)

DXM is a cough suppresent that in high doses can make you trip. But is it inherently bad because of that?

moderation, moderation, moderation. with everything in life from sex to t.v. to food to religion to work etc etc..

Wink
Logged

EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE
FEMMSTARR
Astral Energy 2
**

Karma: 1
Offline Offline

Posts: 58


View Profile Email
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2005, 10:46:32 »

Quote from: Ben K
Quote from: jilola


User beware, eh?

2cents & L&L
Jouni


Buy the ticket, take the ride...

Quote

moderation, moderation, moderation. with everything in life from sex to t.v. to food to religion to work etc etc..

Wink


This is exactly my belief a beer with friends or a joint with the girls once in a while is not a problem  as your body can over come that but a gallon of alcohol in a day will leave permanent damage to your liver and smoking an ounce of pot a day will leave considerable damage to your lungs

all things in moderation
Logged
data
Astral Energy 2
**

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2005, 13:24:54 »

Quote
how can you elicit a physical reaction in your non physical mind?


A physical reaction is caused in your brain and body, and it affects your mind on a more subtle level.

Quote
Yes, drugs do harm your physical body to an extent, i wasnt arguing that. But everything you put into your body is harmful to a certain extent. The only subtle unconsious and psychcological effects would be magnifying problems you already have. ie. if your depressed, it isnt going to help. And usually, problems dealing with drugs come from the person either obtaining them, or reacting badly to the drug.(There is a risk factor in everything you do in life.)


I think it is safe to say that certain drugs are bad for everyone. Sorry, my friend, but it's not all relative. If anyone takes heroin, no matter what their disposition or emotional state, they will report similar symptoms.

Quote
DXM is a cough suppresent that in high doses can make you trip. But is it inherently bad because of that?


We are not really talking about DXM are we? We are talking about recreational drugs, such as amphetamines and hallucinogens.
As for DXM, it may have seemingly beneficial effects, but as with all western medicine, there is always some negative effects as well, and because western medicine only treats all ailment at a physical level, rather than at a mind, body and spirit level, it never reaches the root of the problem. So, you can take a cough suppressant and the operative word there is "suppressant" but all it means is that your cough has been pushed down. It is akin to tidying your room up by throwing everything under the bed. Eventually, it will be back.


Quote
moderation, moderation, moderation. with everything in life from sex to t.v. to food to religion to work etc etc..

Wink


I don't really disagree with this philosophy when applied to some things. However, it is clear enough this is not an all encompassing philosophy, as I attempted to point out to you by asking the question - can you take poison in moderation?

There are thousands of case studies done on drugs and their effects and we know that they are bad for us. Let us look at some of the recreational drugs:

Heroin:

Quote
As heroin leaves the brain and body, users experience withdrawal symptoms (often described as feeling like a severe case of flu.) They include watery eyes, runny nose, yawning, loss of appetite, tremors, panic, chills, sweating, nausea, muscle cramps, and insomnia. Blood pressure, pulse, respiration, and temperature all elevate. People can overdose on heroin, which reduces the number of messages the brain sends to the chest muscles. The person's breathing slows, and, if the dose is high enough, stops. Heroin use during pregnancy is associated with low birth weight, stillbirths, placental abruptions, and sudden death syndrome. Babies of addicts are born dependent on the drug and must go through withdrawal as their first task in life.



Cocaine:

Quote
Addicts are preoccupied with getting their drug, and most of their thoughts and behaviors are directed to that end.
Cocaine interferes with judgment and produces exaggerated feelings of well-being and confidence. High doses can produce paranoia, and users can become aggressive and violent. In rare cases, cocaine can produce death, after first use or after prolonged use. Death occurs from cardiac arrest (the person's heart stops beating), or seizures


Marjuana:

Quote
Marijuana contains chemicals that act on the marijuana receptor in the brain. Scientists have recently identified the natural chemical, anandamide, designed to fit the marijuana receptor. While scientists do
not know all of the drug's effects, several studies have established that marijuana interferes with memory and learning. A new study confirms that heavy (daily) marijuana use impairs critical skills related to attention, memory and learning. In this study, "Heavy users could not pay attention to the material well enough to register the information in the first place so that it could be recalled and repeated later," say the researchers in the Journal of the American Medical Association (2/21/96).

These deficits persisted up to 24 hours after users stopped feeling high. Marijuana also impairs judgment and reaction time. Road tests for marijuana intoxication are not routinely done, but a special study in Memphis, Tennessee, showed that one-third of drivers stopped for reckless driving were high on marijuana. Another study revealed that of drivers involved in accidents who were treated at a trauma center, 15 percent had been smoking marijuana. Daily use of from 1 to 3 marijuana cigarettes appears to produce the same lung damage and cancer risk as smoking 5 times as many cigarettes. Finally, researchers have found for the first time that marijuana can cause withdrawal symptoms in laboratory animals, and that marijuana acts on the brain and nervous system as do other addictive drugs.


LSD:

Quote
LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) is one of the major hallucinogenic drugs and one of the most potent mood-changing chemicals. LSD is sold on the street in tablets, capsules, or occasionally in liquid form. It is odorless, colorless and tasteless and is usually taken by mouth. Often it is added to absorbent paper, such as blotter paper, and divided into small squares with each square representing a dose.

Effects
Effects are unpredictable and depend on the amount taken, the user's personality, mood and expectations, and the surroundings in which the drug is used. Physical effects include higher body temperature, increased heart rate and blood pressure. Sensations and feelings change much more dramatically than the physical signs. The user may experience delusions and visual hallucinations which can cause panic. Users refer to acute negative reactions to LSD as "a bad trip." Many users experience flashbacks, a recurrence of certain aspects of a person's drug experience without the user having taken the drug again.



Ice:

Quote
Physical effects of ice include: heart palpitations, blurred vision, extended wakefulness, and damage to the brain, lungs and liver. Methamphetamine can interfere with vision, judgment, coordination, and reflexes, which may lead to automobile and other machinery accidents. Effects of the drug may last from 2 hours to 20 hours depending on how much is smoked. Behavioral effects include violence, hallucinations, depression and psychosis.


Exctasy:

Quote
Ecstasy (MDMA) is a synthetic drug with both hallucinogenic and amphetamine-like properties. It is chemically similar to two other synthetic drugs, MDA and methamphetamine, which damage brain cells.
Effects

Many problems users encounter with Ecstasy are similar to those found with the use of amphetamines and cocaine. They include increases in heart rate and blood pressure, nausea, blurred vision, faintness, chills, sweating, and such psychological problems as confusion, depression, sleep problems, craving, severe anxiety, paranoia, and psychotic episodes. Ecstasy's chemical cousin, MDA, destroys cells that produce serotonin in the brain. These cells play a direct roll in regulating aggression, mood, sexual activity, sleep, and sensitivity to pain. A study in Lancet

(vol. 352, no. 9138) in October 1998 finds that Ecstasy destroys a structural component, the serotonin transporter, of serotonin neurons (brain cells) in humans. This work adds to earlier findings that Ecstasy can destroy up to 70 percent of serotonin neurons in laboratory


Inhalants

Quote
Inhalants are legal products abused by those who sniff or inhale them for the purpos of getting high. Inhalants fall into three categories: volatile solvents such as glue, gasoline, aerosols; anesthetics such as nitrous oxide; and nitrites such as amyl and butyl nitrite.
Effects
Inhalants act on the brain and destroy the outer lining of nerve cells, making it impossible for those cells to communicate. Symptoms of use include dilated pupils, blisters or rash around the nose or mouth, chronic cough, nausea and headaches, disorientation, and a chemical odor on breath. After only six months of use, the brain, lungs, nerves, liver, kidneys and bones may be permanently damaged. More than 60 young people died from sniffing inhalants in 1993 in the United States.


Alcohol:

Quote
Alcohol acts on the brain and can produce addiction. Short-term effects: The more a person drinks in one sitting, the more pronounced short-term effects become. Small amounts (1-2 drinks) generally produce pleasant feelings. Larger
amounts produce depressant effects on the brain. Judgment, reaction time, speech and motor control are increasingly impaired with increasing amounts of alcohol. Drunk drivers kill about 23,000 Americans a year. Very large amounts of alcohol can cause death from overdose by reducing the number of messages the brain sends to the chest muscles that regulate breathing. The drinker stops breathing and dies. Long-term effects: Over time, alcohol can produce tolerance, physical dependence and addiction. Alcohol can cause many kinds of cancer and can permanently damage the brain. In severe cases, alcohol destroys the part of the brain where short-term memory occurs, making it impossible to learn anything new. Women should not drink during pregnancy. Fetal alcohol syndrome is the leading, preventable cause of mental retardation in the United States.



With regards to Alcohol, I will share a personal experience of mine, that destroyed a lot of my life. My father was an alcoholic, and he would come drunk home everynight and I had to witness this as a child. He would shout profanities, throw things about, and he would even be physically violent to us. I have seen the same effects in those who go out to pubs and clubs everytime. People become loud, abusive and act like infants. I have only drunk once in my life, while out in college, and I too found I was losing my sanity, even with few drinks. I've decided it was not for me.

Tabacco

Quote
Tobacco contains nicotine, a drug that acts on the brain and rapidly produces addiction. Scientists estimate that 90 percent to 95 percent of tobacco users are addicted. Nicotine itself is toxic--high doses can kill, but do so rarely. Its most destructive property is its ability to addict users rapidly. Once addicted, smokers repeatedly expose their brains and bodies to hundreds of
toxic chemicals contained in tobacco and tobacco smoke. The list of cancers that tobacco causes is impressive, from cancers of the mouth, head and neck to cancers involving most of the vital organs. Smoking also causes heart disease, emphysema, and other lung diseases. Moreover, cigarette smoke can also harm nonsmokers. Children whose parents smoke suffer higher rates of bronchitis and other lung infections, and nonsmoking spouses of smokers have higher rates of lung cancer than those whose spouses do not smoke. Every year, tobacco kills more than 400,000 Americans. This is more deaths than all Americans killed in World War I, World War II, and the Korean and Vietnam wars combined. Every year the tobacco industry loses 2 million smokers; 80 percent quit, the rest die. The industry recruits teenagers to replace those losses.



Summary of effects with recreational drugs:

Blood pressure
Memory loss
Aggression and violence
Panic
Psychosis
Reduced cognition(as if it wasn't low enough already)
Confusion
Depression
Insomnia
Addiction
Severe anxiety/paranoia
Higher body temperature
Damage to brain cells and other parts of the brain and body

Sorry, but I don't see why it is good having any of the above in moderation. The way I see it, you're making a deal with the devil everytime you take one of these drugs; you sell your soul for a few sensations. Your soul is your consciousness, and I think it needn't be argued, that drugs do impair your consciousness and your mental faculties.

Now, the entire purpose of meditation, is to quieten the mind and gain control over your mind. Even, those who don't take drugs, have very noisy minds and loads of stress. Now, just think about those who take drugs, which only exacberates the little sense of self you have. Meditating, and then taking drugs, is like taking one step forward, and then ten steps back.

I wanted to touch on some of the  non physical or spiritual effects of drugs. Robert Bruce, pointed out in his book, that most people who he's surveyed who have had bad astral experiences, were also drug users. He offers a good explanation to dispel the myth that emptying your mind will make you susceptible to negative entities. That is that we are most susceptible to negative entities when our minds are most noisy, as any negative entity could just mask themselves in one of our thoughts, and we would think it is our own thoughts. Yet, when we empty quieten our minds, we become more aware of our thought processes, and are able to deal with negative thoughts. That explanation makes sense to me.

How do we know that right now, we don't have negative entities attempting to affect us? And, if right now we are already vulnerable, then it is only logical that we are more vulnerable, when we further compromise our control by using drugs. Suppose, instead of negative entities, negative thoughts of others were seeping through your mind, when we let our guard down with the use of drugs, and as our faculties of discrimination and coping mechanisms are now weakened, we are left vulnerable.

So, really, they're bad all around. So, no disrespect to you, but this is one thing that will affect you even in moderation. You may not be immediately aware of it, but be sure, it's affecting you.

Would I be right in assuming you are a drug user?
Logged
Frank
Astral Energy 5
*****

Karma: 14
Offline Offline

Posts: 3123


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2005, 00:44:23 »

Hi:

The "problem" with drugs is they give people experiences they are not psychologically equipped to handle. I've said a number of times there is a humongeous difference between a drug-fuelled whacky experience and a controlled conscious-exit projection.

For example, focusing one's attention within Focus 4 of consciousness you see your whole physical life "as a concept". This changes you considerably, your whole attitude towards physical life is never the same after such an experience. I shudder to think what unbalancing effects this would have on a person if they had not received proper instruction about what to expect.

Fortunately, it would appear that drugs have a kind of self-limiting effect that prevents people from focusing within this area. From what I can gauge, they limit people to Focus 1 and Focus 2 of consciousness. Which is very fortunate I guess.

Yours,
Frank
Logged
Ben K
Astral Energy 3
***

Karma: 1
Offline Offline

Posts: 445


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2005, 01:47:24 »

All talk of "negative entities" behind, the fact of the matter is drugs do not effect your mind like you seem to believe. A physical chemical can not alter your non physical consiousness. Otherwise, drug problems carry over through your lives, and thats just not logical.(imo)

To answer your question, yes it is possible to take poison in moderation. You might need some tools and a microscope, but you can get a low enough dose where there will be barely any effects.

You give me that summary of effects but what you dont realize is that, like everything in life there is always a ratio of good to bad. The good effects out-weigh the bad ones for some people, others, like you, see drugs as hramful, bad, etc..

And as for negative entities, they cant really hurt you, so if you can just learn to deal with them and show them some love you will be fine. They wont be attracted to a mind full of "higher" (to use your terms Wink thoughts.

And so the only "problems" i can see with drugs are

1. Method of obtaining them

2. The effects could be too strong for you

3. You screw up and use something uncompatible with your body.

There might be more, but those are the major ones. (societies rules, cops, etc aside)

So, like a mountain climber can use gear to take away some of the risks of climbing a mountain, the risks in using drugs can be lessened by various methods(Researching what you are putting into your body, have someone sober on hand in case, etc)

But there is always risk, like everything in life, and it call comes down to personal preferance. At least it should, but most govts on this planet dont agree Wink

And yes, you would be correct in assuming that i am a drug user. Mostly psychodelics, about 3,4 times a month. But its fun, nothing more. Spiritual stuff is a whole different area of my life.
Logged

EXPERIENCE IS KNOWLEDGE
no_leaf_clover
Astral Energy 5
*****

Karma: 14
Offline Offline

Posts: 1485


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2005, 08:04:25 »

Quote
The fact of the matter is you cant. You say "Ah yes, drugs are only a shortcut" when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs. Drugs are an experiance, and there "mystic" nature draws alot of people who simply are too rooted in there objective reality to want to experiance something like an acid trip. But im not going to preach to them, its there business.

If one is smart and can see drugs for what they really are, i believe its fine. The real danger is when someone say, thinks they become a shaman because they have crazy visuals when they trip on muhsrooms. Theres no enlightenment to be found in drugs. Only if you create it.


I agree completely with this statement Ben K made.

Data,

Quote
Well prolonged usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.


This is only true of some drugs. The health consequences are greatly exaggerated for the most common drugs. A cigarette is far worse for your health than pot or LSD. In fact, LSD has no long-term health effects for the vast majority of people (only excepted those who have undeveloped schizophrenia), and the short-term effects are things like a slightly increased heart rate. Unless you're an undeveloped schizo (meaning you'll be schizo later anyway), the worst thing that could happen from LSD is a bad trip. Don't be stupid and do it while you're in a bad mood or afraid of what will happen and you'll have no problem. Goes along with "know what you're doing" and don't be stupid. (I've never done any illegal drugs, just researched a few things about certain ones.)

Quote
No worries though. I've with you in that I agree drugs will never (hardly ever at anyy rate) yield any useable results. Just like freediving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.


This is of course a matter of opinion, but I would like to point out that there are opposing views here. Mainly Timothy Leary comes to mind with his arguments in favor of (proper use of) psychedelics in Buddhist practice.

Quote
I think it is safe to say that certain drugs are bad for everyone. Sorry, my friend, but it's not all relative. If anyone takes heroin, no matter what their disposition or emotional state, they will report similar symptoms.


Same if everyone shoots themselves in the head, if you want to throw around some dramatic comparisons. But you can't throw all drugs into a big group called simply 'drugs' and call them all bad for you. Evaluate each one on an individual basis (and the list of quotes on the effects of the drugs isn't very straightforward, or at least tries to make piddly crap sound horrible).

You'll find things like LSD and shrooms aren't any harder on your body than a run around the gym (again, as long as you aren't stupid with them). Heroin and cocaine, etc., are completely different stories. You can die right off the bat from that excrement. That's why you can't generalize with illegal substances. There's a lot of variation.


So pretty much, some drugs are in fact very safe despite widespread propaganda against them. Just don't be careless with them. Know exactly what you're doing if you want to do anything and you'll be fine. Again, I've never used any illegal substances but I have looked into some of the effects of psychedelics and they tend to be extremely exaggerated. I see no reason why things like alcohol are legal while LSD is not... except for money, that is. Wink
Logged

data
Astral Energy 2
**

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2005, 18:16:11 »

Quote
All talk of "negative entities" behind, the fact of the matter is drugs do not effect your mind like you seem to believe. A physical chemical can not alter your non physical consciousness. Otherwise, drug problems carry over through your lives, and thats just not logical.(imo)


The physical, mental and non physical are very closely related. Physical chemicals do affect your consciousness, and we know this, because they produce altered states of consciousness, they can even make you unconscious. So, yes they do affect your consciousness and it does carry through with you.

Quote
To answer your question, yes it is possible to take poison in moderation. You might need some tools and a microscope, but you can get a low enough dose where there will be barely any effects.


cheesy Good answer, but it is not in moderation though is it? What you really mean it will barely produce any notictable effects. Yet, it will produce subtle effects, by killing your cells. Keep doing that, and it will eventually amount into something bigger.

Quote
You give me that summary of effects but what you dont realize is that, like everything in life there is always a ratio of good to bad. The good effects out-weigh the bad ones for some people, others, like you, see drugs as hramful, bad, etc..


The summary I gave you was all bad. The only good you are talking about is sensations, and for those temporary moments of pleasure, you subject your mind, body and soul to something  much more damaging. The bad is outweighing the good here.

Quote
And as for negative entities, they cant really hurt you, so if you can just learn to deal with them and show them some love you will be fine. They wont be attracted to a mind full of "higher" (to use your terms thoughts.


Yeah, but how you will be able maintain "higher thoughts" when you impair your discriminatory and cognitive abilities? That is why you are susceptible to negative influences and entities. They can harm you much easily when you guard is down. Further, this business of "I will send them love, and it will be over" I recall Monroe's account of encountering two demons in the astral, that were clinging to him. He tried everything to get them off, light, love. None of it worked. He was literally screaming and crying for help.

Robert Bruce, said it quite clearly, that just one negative experience in the lower  astral, could ruin your life. He made it clear that most who had negative experiences were also drug users.


No leaf cover,

I am not sure about LSD. I will concede that the effects mentioned in the above studies were not particularly damaging. However, I do not find it good, that  this drug can cause reoccurring flashbacks, even after it has been discontinued. That suggests it has long lasting effects. I did some further research on LSD. For your consideration:

Quote
Are there long-term consequences to taking LSD?
Hallucinogens can cause extreme, long-lasting adverse neuropsychiatric effects, like flashbacks (post-hallucination perceptual disorders), relatively long-lasting psychoses, severe depression or shizophrenia-like syndromes, especially in heavy or long-term users or in people with an underlying mental illness. Some of the long-term problems associated with chronic or heavy LSD use are:
A person can experience rapidly changing feelings, immediately and long after use.
Chronic use may cause persistent problems, depression, violent behavior, anxiety or a distorted perception of time.
Large doses may cause convulsions, coma, heart/lung failure or ruptured blood vessels in the brain.
"Flashbacks" may occur long after use.

Source: http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/atod/od_lsd.htm

Quote
LSD users quickly develop a high degree of tolerance for the drug's effects: After repeated use, they need increasingly larger doses to produce similar effects. LSD use also produces tolerance for other hallucinogenic drugs such as psilocybin and mescaline, but not to drugs such as marijuana, amphetamines, and PCP, which do not act directly on the serotonin receptors affected by LSD. Tolerance for LSD is short-lived it is lost if the user stops taking the drug for several days. There is no evidence that LSD produces physical withdrawal symptoms when chronic use is stopped.

Two long-term effects persistent psychosis and hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD), more commonly referred to as "flashbacks"-have been associated with use of LSD. The causes of these effects, which in some users occur after a single experience with the drug, are not known.

Psychosis
The effects of LSD can be described as drug-induced psychosis-distortion or disorganization of a person's capacity to recognize reality, think rationally, or communicate with others. Some LSD users experience devastating psychological effects that persist after the trip has ended, producing a long-lasting psychotic-like state. LSD-induced persistent psychosis may include dramatic mood swings from mania to profound depression, vivid visual disturbances, and hallucinations. These effects may last for years and can affect people who have no history or other symptoms of psychological disorder.


Quote
Hallucinations distort or transform shapes and movements, and they may give rise to a perception that time is moving very slowly or that the user's body is changing shape. On some trips, users experience sensations that are enjoyable and mentally stimulating and that produce a sense of heightened understanding. Bad trips, however, include terrifying thoughts and nightmarish feelings of anxiety and despair that include fears of insanity, death, or losing control.


Quote
LSD can (and does) cause severe psychological discomfort - even trauma. In fact, one bad trip can quickly make you forget dozens of “hearts and flowers” trips. When bad trips do occur, they tend to take two main forms: panic attacks and psychotic reactions.
Panic Attacks:
The most common adverse reaction to LSD, panic usually centers on a fear of dying or going crazy.
Psychotic Reactions: Serious breaks with reality, psychotic episodes usually include hallucinations and delusions. LSD fueled psychotic episodes are like bad trips that don't end when the drug wears off. These reactions may be linked to the “triggering” of preexisting problems and may require professional intervention - similar to PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.
Flashbacks: Another occasional effect of LSD are flashbacks. This is said to be the reemergence of effects -- usually panic -- days or weeks later. Since LSD is not retained in the body, (this is highly debated, btw, some say it does remain in fat cells), flashbacks are probably psychological rather than physiological in origin. Flashback triggers can include stress, severe fatigue, other drug use, or 'hints' associated with a past trip. Although acid flashbacks, like other anxiety reactions, seldom last longer than 90 minutes, they can seem endless and like a living hell, since they tend to focus on nasty aspects of bad trips. (I had one where everything I saw looked like a beating heart, it was quite frightening, it doesn't sound like it when I write this for some reason, but I can still visualize it.


Quote

Acid has very random and sometimes very frightening effects. Trips feed off a person's imagination. One person can spend 12 hours in a very happy place while someone else who's bought the same stuff can spend 12 hours lost in their own fears and paranoia.
How the trip goes has everything to do with who you are, how you're feeling and how comfortable you are with the people you are with.
A trip can speed up and slow down time.
Trips can speed up and slow down movement.
Colour, sound and objects can get distorted. Think dancing wallpaper, angry traffic cones and double vision.
Trips can make a happy person happier and a freaked out person more panicky and confused.
There is a flip side:
If panic sets in the experience can be scary and confusing.
Bad trips can be terrifying.
Flashbacks sometimes happen. This is when part of the trip is re-lived way after the trip was taken

Source: http://www.talktofrank.com/azofdrugs/L/LSD.aspx



I think from the above, LSD does not sound particularly bad or good. but it does seem to have very bad psychological side effects. What if you get a bad trip? Does anyone here have an experience with a bad trip?

Again, something that alters my consciousness, that I lose control over it, does not sound good at all. It's a bit like sleepwalking in the middle of a road amidst moving traffic or playing Russian roulette with my soul. Something not inherently good about that.

Here are some accounts of bad trips:

Quote
Q.
I did acid about 2 1/2 years ago. I had a bad trip to the point that I was drenched in sweat and my face was beak red and I was sweating so bad that sweat was running from my armpits all the way to my fingernails and just kept dripping down my fingertips like it was a waterfall. Now my everyday life has changed. Everything and everyone I look at I see clearly but I also see very light diluted black coloured lines run from where I look at, to the other side of the room. Could the bad trip and the acid cause acne? And could it cause me to have a bad memory and not to ever again be able to remember anything that well?
A.
Hi there!
The feelings and effects you describe can be pretty common when you experience a bad trip. They are considered short term and may also include the following:
ª paranoia
ª confusion
ª anxiety
ª hallucinations.

These usually cease [stop] when you stop using the drug. What you describe however seems to be longer lasting effects, which may or may not be related to the acid. You may want to keep an eye on these feelings and your overall mental well-being and think about speaking to a professional, such as a doctor or counsellor, in case there is a chance that you may experience some sort of psychosis.

A psychosis is a condition where a person experiences some loss of contact with reality. A person with a psychosis can experience any one or more of the following:
ª auditory hallucinations (hearing voices that aren’t there)
ª visual hallucinations (seeing things which aren’t there)
ª delusions (believing things which aren’t true)
ª jumbled thoughts
ª strange behaviour.
Acid is a hallucinogen, and like all other hallucinogens, when you take it, you risk having a bad trip.
Bad trips involve strong feelings of anxiety or fear. The hallucinations can be unpleasant, or they can be so intense that you may feel you are losing control or going crazy.
The reasons for bad trips are not always known, but they are particularly common among first time users, or those who are already predisposed to feelings of anxiety, panic or paranoia (which sounds like it might include you).

Source:  http://www.somazone.com.au/content.asp?Document_ID=1082


Quote

A bad trip (on drugs)   
My wonderful, clever, sensible son, the last person you ever thought would turn to drugs, turned up unexpectedly at home last weekend in a terrible state. He says that he had a bad trip on LSD a few weeks ago and has been messed up ever since. He came home because he didn't know where else to turn.  I was amazed when he told me that everyone in his house this year (he is in his final year at university) regularly takes drugs, usually marijuana and often ecstasy, and he often joins in.  What can we do to help him get over this experience - is there any treatment for a bad trip? And what should he do to get through finals - we are worried that going back to his house (and to all the drugs) will be a disaster for his studies.   Amanda   

Dr Trisha Macnair responds   
   
I am sorry to hear about his experience but it is sadly quite a common one. Almost all young people are vulnerable to the lure of drugs - especially when they are immersed in a culture where they are widely used, no matter how sensible they seem.
LSD, or acid, affects some of the key sensory areas of the brain to cause distortion of sensory perception, changing the world into a weird and unfamiliar place full of surreal colours, sounds and sensations. There may be hallucinations and mystical experiences which may be pleasant, but equally these new experiences may be quite terrifying.
The nature of the trip is greatly influenced by how the person is feeling at the time. Loneliness, insecurity about friends or work, or worries about upcoming exams could all be greatly exaggerated, making the experience very unpleasant. Very occasionally the extreme panic and agitation of a 'bad trip' have lead to suicide, or to accidental deaths as users have tried to flee from their hallucinations.
The effects of a bad trip can last days and even weeks and months. I have one friend who has never managed to forget her experience more than 20 years ago. There may be <depression.shtml>, disorientation, anxiety and a feeling of overwhelming fear.

Flashbacks can occur
Flashbacks can occur long after the episode, which can be extremely upsetting, with strong feelings of fear and <panic_attacks.shtml>.
Sometimes acute mental illness is triggered by a bad trip, with psychotic or extreme depressive problems which can become a long term chronic problem. Very occasionally this has lead to suicide.
Working through the experience may help
There are no particular treatments for a bad trip, although if depression or anxiety are part of the problem then medication specifically for these may help. But your son may get a lot of benefit from working through the experience with someone used to dealing with this sort of problem. With time, the horror should subside to levels he can cope with. His GP should be able to help and may want to refer him to see a psychiatrist if necessary. Local drug counselling services may also be able to recommend someone, and may be able to help your son in general with his drug use.



Quote
had no idea where I was except that I was in a car, I was scared I thought I would either die or go insane forever. I remember one thought going through my head continuously 'I am the biggest lunatic alive. People will charge admission to see me. My parents will feel I am a disgrace and disown me. All because I know the meaning of it all but cannot explain it.' The strange thing about this thought was that I was not consciously thinking it and yet it was running through my head so clearly I could hear it. More here:  http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2000


Quote
Im telling this story of my last experience on acid to warn other users (particularly new users) about the effects of this drug.

I was with my future boyfriend and our mutual best friend when i bought 2 tabs of acid off a guy who I had scored off before. He said they were double dipped and more potent. I looked at them and said 'what the hell.' I had only taken acid twice before and each time had only ingested half a tab, so my decision to take two was a BIG mistake. I swallowed them and then we went to this park we always went to and parked to listened to tunes in the car. After about half an hour I was starting to feel the effects and was feeling pretty good. Then my jerk-off friend (knowing Im phobic about spiders) ran his hands up my arm like a spider and told me that a big spider was racing up my arm. I screamed and started to cry hysterically. I jumped out of the car screaming and then I noticed a cop across the street giving a guy a ticket and that sent me further into the abyss. My friends put me back in the car and said we were going to go driving to get away from the cop and calm me down.

At this point I was out of my mind. I was fluctuating between hysterical crying and laughing. I could not control my emotions at all. As we were driving, the oncoming cars started to look very menacing. The grills became mouths with very sharp teeth and looked like they would eat me. We pulled over and I found a shard of glass and I refused to put it down believing it was somehow a link to reality. I was sure I was going insane. I was still crying and screaming and my boyfriend had to go to a guitar lesson and left me in the car with our friend. We were in the parking lot and he was talking to me trying to take my mind off my trip. For about 20 minutes it was working, but then his head turned into a big rat and I, again, lost it. For about 7 hours I was in that state of hysterics, sure I was dying or going to become insane.

When I finally did come down I was emotionally exhausted and my voice had blown out. I have never been so frightened before in my life and have not touched it since. I now suffer from a panic disorder. It causes long lasting panic attacks that mimic my trip in many ways. I, and my therapist, belive my acid trip caused this. Well, not caused but uncovered it. I wish every day that I had not taken that drug, as it was so traumatic that I now have this disorder and also other psychological symptoms that I did not have before my experience. I am not stating that LSD caused my problems in any way, just was the traumatic experience that unleashed a preexisting condition. However, my problem could have lied dormant and never surfaced at all if I had not indulged in this drug use.


Quote
I am presently aged 45, and took LSD at aged 16, during 1972. I can honestly say that the trip experience was so profound and real, that it has affected me ever since.

My parents were on holiday, and I tripped at home, with a work colleague, who was not a good friend, just somebody I knew. I thought LSD was going to be all flowers and pretty lights, etc., and was looking forward to the experience. We bought the black microdot tabs from a dealer that he knew, who warned us that the tabs were strong, and to make sure we were somewhere safe. On the way home on a bus, we dropped the tabs. We got home OK, and decided to go to a local shop. The time was around 5-6pm. After about half an hour, we started to feel a bit light headed, and giggly. We returned home, and sat in the front room, and put on some Deep Purple on the hi fi. I can remember moving my hands, and seeing the fingertips trailing behind, and the seeing the walls swaying. Also, sounds coming out of the hi fi speakers were in colour. Then, bang. I lost an hour or two here, my colleague said that I just wandered round and round in circles, in a trance state. I can vaguely remember seeing my mind on different planes and levels, shooting out into infinity.

I then came round, and noticed the guy with me staring at me in an all-knowing way. He had tripped before, and I began to get the AWFUL feeling that he had tricked me into taking the tab. As the time went on, I began to get paranoid, and started to realize that this trip was going to last for eternity, and, in fact, my whole life previous to this, was also part of the trip. I saw my parents sitting on the sofa laughing at me, “you've been conned again” on their faces. I looked at the guy with me, yes, I now realized I knew him, I'd always known him, for eternity, I was in a death trip now, I was sucked into a spiral, everything I looked at, I knew what was coming, DEJA VU on a massive scale. Fear is not a good description of the horror of this experience.

Several times in the trip, I became 'aware' and tried to tell myself, this is stupid, you are you, I repeated my name over and over. At one stage, I decided to go for a walk. It was dark, about 11pm. We caught a bus, God knows how. Walked round a town centre. It was raining. The rain hit my face and felt like acid burning holes. I looked at the guy with me, yes, his name, everything, he was the bastard that always tricks me into taking LSD, and I fall for it every time, for infinity -whoosh - away again down the deja vu spiral, horrendous sickening fear. At one stage in town, I looked at an EXIT sign. Yes, ex it, this is it, it is the trip, whoosh - away again. Managed to get home safely by walking home. We had left the front door unlocked, but got lucky. I then spent the next 2-3 hours battling with my sanity, as time and time again I suffered the realization, and gut-wrenching fear, that I had done this millions of times before, and could never escape it. I eventually came down at about 4 am, staring at a gas fire, in a state of shock.

The following days I wandered round in a daze, trying to come to terms with what had happened to me. I only took LSD one more time after that, a half a tab. To convince myself it was OK. It wasn’t. I went to rock concert at a stadium, it was dark, I saw the EXIT signs, I was back on the same trip, panicked, left early, and went home, lay in bed in a state of fear.

The following year, I smoked some weed, became paranoid, and suddenly flash backed, I was still on the trip. I ran panicking, it’s all I can do for a few seconds, then the feeling goes. I tried sniffing solvent, bang, whilst high, I got the same feeling, still on the trip, panicked and ran again. People look at me strange, I’m not surprised. The years went on. I married and had children, got a good job. Whilst at work, I had to go into a dark hall, with an illuminated exit sign, bang, - you’ve guessed it, I flash backed again, deja vu, the people with me are all part of the conspiracy. And it goes on. I’ve had about 7 or 8 flashbacks, some being as far as 8 years apart. The last one was last week. I was in a panicky situation involving my job, involving danger. I was dealing with something, when I had the realisation, deja vu feeling again, OH NO, is what I say. Christ, it’s a nightmare.

So, during my life, Ive tried TM, Buddhism, Martial arts, various other spiritual paths, I’m lost, I’m searching for sanity, I honestly don’t know, 29 years later, what is reality. When I die, I hope it’s blackness and peace, and not part of a neverending trip, and I’ve got to suffer the experience again.

My advice to anybody reading this who hasn’t tripped yet, DON’T.


Quote
I dropped 1 tab, basically had a very sketchy bad trip. The next morning I woke up and everything was a little flashy and i thought it would go away but it didn't.

I have had it for 8 months know and I often find myself trying to peer through the weirdness but i never can. I call it the 'CONFUSION' because it is very unpleasant especially at the age of 15. To tell the truth I really hate it and wish I could reverse to the day I took it and get ticked instead.


Quote
I will never forget my first and only experience with LSD. One night after work my ex-friend called me. He asked if I wanted to come over and go on a trip. I was very excited and I rushed over. When I got there my friends (we will call D.B. and J.K. were there along with a boy who I did not know. D.B. pulled out six hits of an acid called Dancing Condoms, it was a puzzle with little dancing condoms on it. It was me and the other boy's first time so we only took a half of a hit. I waited about 45 minutes and nothing was happening. I noticed that the other boy was acting very weird. I thought maybe the acid was fake so I took the rest of the dancing condom and 3/4 of a hit of white blotter.

A little later D.B. went to get some bud. When he got back we smoked 1 good sized bowl. About a minute after the bowl I was feeling very bonked up. At first I felt very high and started to laugh at evrything. D.B. and I went back to his room to get another bowl. I was sitting on his bed and I dazed off I had thoughts of life and death without even trying to think about it. Suddenly the whole room caved in on me and I came out of the daze. D.B. kept talking to me but I didn't even know where I was. I could not comprehend why I was this bonked up. I looked at the pot and all I saw was pine needles. I asked D.B. if that was what we smoked and he asked me what I was talking about. I looked again and It was regular marijuana.

We went in the living room and sat down. I kept dazing off and suddenly the room went dark ond colors of neon green and pink were everywhere. I felt like I was all alone and nobody else realy existed but they were all just images. I was looking at my arms and they turned into clay and crumbled to the ground. Everybodies hair was changing color and everyones faces were scrambling around. I was feeling very scared. D.B. took me in the other room and he kept yelling at me. He told that the demons were coming and I was going to go to hell. Suddenly I saw a flash of light and D.B. became a demond. The vains were popping out of his head and his eyes were dripping blood and hirns came out of his head. I started talking to J.K. and he calmed me down he told me it was from the acid and D.B. was just trying to scare me. In the middle of our talk his face formed into another demon and he was screaming at me. I was looking at the walls and it was covered with huge pentagrams. After a few hours of running through the house screaming I finally came down.

After that, ever time I smoked weed I saw designs on the walls. I started to trip one time after 2 gravity bong hits. The room was melting and I was extremely paranoid. If I didn't have a bad trip my first time I would probably do it again, but out of fear I will never take it again.


I think it is suffice to say, from all the above accounts from real people, that even a single bad trip can ruin your life, your mind and your soul. As I said, it's lot like playing Russian roulette with your soul.  I don't think that's good. There is indeed something inherently bad about drugs.

There seems to be many factors that affect your chances of getting bad trips, all that are uncontrollable:

1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences

It seems like anyone can have a bad trip, and once they do, it can change them forever. I would imagine, especially for someone whose been meditating for a long time, it would throw water on all their efforts and development.

I think the wisest think anyone can do, is say no to these drugs Smiley
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: