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Author Topic: Drugs  (Read 45072 times)
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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2005, 12:24:54 »

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how can you elicit a physical reaction in your non physical mind?


A physical reaction is caused in your brain and body, and it affects your mind on a more subtle level.

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Yes, drugs do harm your physical body to an extent, i wasnt arguing that. But everything you put into your body is harmful to a certain extent. The only subtle unconsious and psychcological effects would be magnifying problems you already have. ie. if your depressed, it isnt going to help. And usually, problems dealing with drugs come from the person either obtaining them, or reacting badly to the drug.(There is a risk factor in everything you do in life.)


I think it is safe to say that certain drugs are bad for everyone. Sorry, my friend, but it's not all relative. If anyone takes heroin, no matter what their disposition or emotional state, they will report similar symptoms.

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DXM is a cough suppresent that in high doses can make you trip. But is it inherently bad because of that?


We are not really talking about DXM are we? We are talking about recreational drugs, such as amphetamines and hallucinogens.
As for DXM, it may have seemingly beneficial effects, but as with all western medicine, there is always some negative effects as well, and because western medicine only treats all ailment at a physical level, rather than at a mind, body and spirit level, it never reaches the root of the problem. So, you can take a cough suppressant and the operative word there is "suppressant" but all it means is that your cough has been pushed down. It is akin to tidying your room up by throwing everything under the bed. Eventually, it will be back.


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moderation, moderation, moderation. with everything in life from sex to t.v. to food to religion to work etc etc..

Wink


I don't really disagree with this philosophy when applied to some things. However, it is clear enough this is not an all encompassing philosophy, as I attempted to point out to you by asking the question - can you take poison in moderation?

There are thousands of case studies done on drugs and their effects and we know that they are bad for us. Let us look at some of the recreational drugs:

Heroin:

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As heroin leaves the brain and body, users experience withdrawal symptoms (often described as feeling like a severe case of flu.) They include watery eyes, runny nose, yawning, loss of appetite, tremors, panic, chills, sweating, nausea, muscle cramps, and insomnia. Blood pressure, pulse, respiration, and temperature all elevate. People can overdose on heroin, which reduces the number of messages the brain sends to the chest muscles. The person's breathing slows, and, if the dose is high enough, stops. Heroin use during pregnancy is associated with low birth weight, stillbirths, placental abruptions, and sudden death syndrome. Babies of addicts are born dependent on the drug and must go through withdrawal as their first task in life.



Cocaine:

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Addicts are preoccupied with getting their drug, and most of their thoughts and behaviors are directed to that end.
Cocaine interferes with judgment and produces exaggerated feelings of well-being and confidence. High doses can produce paranoia, and users can become aggressive and violent. In rare cases, cocaine can produce death, after first use or after prolonged use. Death occurs from cardiac arrest (the person's heart stops beating), or seizures


Marjuana:

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Marijuana contains chemicals that act on the marijuana receptor in the brain. Scientists have recently identified the natural chemical, anandamide, designed to fit the marijuana receptor. While scientists do
not know all of the drug's effects, several studies have established that marijuana interferes with memory and learning. A new study confirms that heavy (daily) marijuana use impairs critical skills related to attention, memory and learning. In this study, "Heavy users could not pay attention to the material well enough to register the information in the first place so that it could be recalled and repeated later," say the researchers in the Journal of the American Medical Association (2/21/96).

These deficits persisted up to 24 hours after users stopped feeling high. Marijuana also impairs judgment and reaction time. Road tests for marijuana intoxication are not routinely done, but a special study in Memphis, Tennessee, showed that one-third of drivers stopped for reckless driving were high on marijuana. Another study revealed that of drivers involved in accidents who were treated at a trauma center, 15 percent had been smoking marijuana. Daily use of from 1 to 3 marijuana cigarettes appears to produce the same lung damage and cancer risk as smoking 5 times as many cigarettes. Finally, researchers have found for the first time that marijuana can cause withdrawal symptoms in laboratory animals, and that marijuana acts on the brain and nervous system as do other addictive drugs.


LSD:

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LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) is one of the major hallucinogenic drugs and one of the most potent mood-changing chemicals. LSD is sold on the street in tablets, capsules, or occasionally in liquid form. It is odorless, colorless and tasteless and is usually taken by mouth. Often it is added to absorbent paper, such as blotter paper, and divided into small squares with each square representing a dose.

Effects
Effects are unpredictable and depend on the amount taken, the user's personality, mood and expectations, and the surroundings in which the drug is used. Physical effects include higher body temperature, increased heart rate and blood pressure. Sensations and feelings change much more dramatically than the physical signs. The user may experience delusions and visual hallucinations which can cause panic. Users refer to acute negative reactions to LSD as "a bad trip." Many users experience flashbacks, a recurrence of certain aspects of a person's drug experience without the user having taken the drug again.



Ice:

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Physical effects of ice include: heart palpitations, blurred vision, extended wakefulness, and damage to the brain, lungs and liver. Methamphetamine can interfere with vision, judgment, coordination, and reflexes, which may lead to automobile and other machinery accidents. Effects of the drug may last from 2 hours to 20 hours depending on how much is smoked. Behavioral effects include violence, hallucinations, depression and psychosis.


Exctasy:

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Ecstasy (MDMA) is a synthetic drug with both hallucinogenic and amphetamine-like properties. It is chemically similar to two other synthetic drugs, MDA and methamphetamine, which damage brain cells.
Effects

Many problems users encounter with Ecstasy are similar to those found with the use of amphetamines and cocaine. They include increases in heart rate and blood pressure, nausea, blurred vision, faintness, chills, sweating, and such psychological problems as confusion, depression, sleep problems, craving, severe anxiety, paranoia, and psychotic episodes. Ecstasy's chemical cousin, MDA, destroys cells that produce serotonin in the brain. These cells play a direct roll in regulating aggression, mood, sexual activity, sleep, and sensitivity to pain. A study in Lancet

(vol. 352, no. 9138) in October 1998 finds that Ecstasy destroys a structural component, the serotonin transporter, of serotonin neurons (brain cells) in humans. This work adds to earlier findings that Ecstasy can destroy up to 70 percent of serotonin neurons in laboratory


Inhalants

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Inhalants are legal products abused by those who sniff or inhale them for the purpos of getting high. Inhalants fall into three categories: volatile solvents such as glue, gasoline, aerosols; anesthetics such as nitrous oxide; and nitrites such as amyl and butyl nitrite.
Effects
Inhalants act on the brain and destroy the outer lining of nerve cells, making it impossible for those cells to communicate. Symptoms of use include dilated pupils, blisters or rash around the nose or mouth, chronic cough, nausea and headaches, disorientation, and a chemical odor on breath. After only six months of use, the brain, lungs, nerves, liver, kidneys and bones may be permanently damaged. More than 60 young people died from sniffing inhalants in 1993 in the United States.


Alcohol:

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Alcohol acts on the brain and can produce addiction. Short-term effects: The more a person drinks in one sitting, the more pronounced short-term effects become. Small amounts (1-2 drinks) generally produce pleasant feelings. Larger
amounts produce depressant effects on the brain. Judgment, reaction time, speech and motor control are increasingly impaired with increasing amounts of alcohol. Drunk drivers kill about 23,000 Americans a year. Very large amounts of alcohol can cause death from overdose by reducing the number of messages the brain sends to the chest muscles that regulate breathing. The drinker stops breathing and dies. Long-term effects: Over time, alcohol can produce tolerance, physical dependence and addiction. Alcohol can cause many kinds of cancer and can permanently damage the brain. In severe cases, alcohol destroys the part of the brain where short-term memory occurs, making it impossible to learn anything new. Women should not drink during pregnancy. Fetal alcohol syndrome is the leading, preventable cause of mental retardation in the United States.



With regards to Alcohol, I will share a personal experience of mine, that destroyed a lot of my life. My father was an alcoholic, and he would come drunk home everynight and I had to witness this as a child. He would shout profanities, throw things about, and he would even be physically violent to us. I have seen the same effects in those who go out to pubs and clubs everytime. People become loud, abusive and act like infants. I have only drunk once in my life, while out in college, and I too found I was losing my sanity, even with few drinks. I've decided it was not for me.

Tabacco

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Tobacco contains nicotine, a drug that acts on the brain and rapidly produces addiction. Scientists estimate that 90 percent to 95 percent of tobacco users are addicted. Nicotine itself is toxic--high doses can kill, but do so rarely. Its most destructive property is its ability to addict users rapidly. Once addicted, smokers repeatedly expose their brains and bodies to hundreds of
toxic chemicals contained in tobacco and tobacco smoke. The list of cancers that tobacco causes is impressive, from cancers of the mouth, head and neck to cancers involving most of the vital organs. Smoking also causes heart disease, emphysema, and other lung diseases. Moreover, cigarette smoke can also harm nonsmokers. Children whose parents smoke suffer higher rates of bronchitis and other lung infections, and nonsmoking spouses of smokers have higher rates of lung cancer than those whose spouses do not smoke. Every year, tobacco kills more than 400,000 Americans. This is more deaths than all Americans killed in World War I, World War II, and the Korean and Vietnam wars combined. Every year the tobacco industry loses 2 million smokers; 80 percent quit, the rest die. The industry recruits teenagers to replace those losses.



Summary of effects with recreational drugs:

Blood pressure
Memory loss
Aggression and violence
Panic
Psychosis
Reduced cognition(as if it wasn't low enough already)
Confusion
Depression
Insomnia
Addiction
Severe anxiety/paranoia
Higher body temperature
Damage to brain cells and other parts of the brain and body

Sorry, but I don't see why it is good having any of the above in moderation. The way I see it, you're making a deal with the devil everytime you take one of these drugs; you sell your soul for a few sensations. Your soul is your consciousness, and I think it needn't be argued, that drugs do impair your consciousness and your mental faculties.

Now, the entire purpose of meditation, is to quieten the mind and gain control over your mind. Even, those who don't take drugs, have very noisy minds and loads of stress. Now, just think about those who take drugs, which only exacberates the little sense of self you have. Meditating, and then taking drugs, is like taking one step forward, and then ten steps back.

I wanted to touch on some of the  non physical or spiritual effects of drugs. Robert Bruce, pointed out in his book, that most people who he's surveyed who have had bad astral experiences, were also drug users. He offers a good explanation to dispel the myth that emptying your mind will make you susceptible to negative entities. That is that we are most susceptible to negative entities when our minds are most noisy, as any negative entity could just mask themselves in one of our thoughts, and we would think it is our own thoughts. Yet, when we empty quieten our minds, we become more aware of our thought processes, and are able to deal with negative thoughts. That explanation makes sense to me.

How do we know that right now, we don't have negative entities attempting to affect us? And, if right now we are already vulnerable, then it is only logical that we are more vulnerable, when we further compromise our control by using drugs. Suppose, instead of negative entities, negative thoughts of others were seeping through your mind, when we let our guard down with the use of drugs, and as our faculties of discrimination and coping mechanisms are now weakened, we are left vulnerable.

So, really, they're bad all around. So, no disrespect to you, but this is one thing that will affect you even in moderation. You may not be immediately aware of it, but be sure, it's affecting you.

Would I be right in assuming you are a drug user?
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Frank
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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2005, 23:44:23 »

Hi:

The "problem" with drugs is they give people experiences they are not psychologically equipped to handle. I've said a number of times there is a humongeous difference between a drug-fuelled whacky experience and a controlled conscious-exit projection.

For example, focusing one's attention within Focus 4 of consciousness you see your whole physical life "as a concept". This changes you considerably, your whole attitude towards physical life is never the same after such an experience. I shudder to think what unbalancing effects this would have on a person if they had not received proper instruction about what to expect.

Fortunately, it would appear that drugs have a kind of self-limiting effect that prevents people from focusing within this area. From what I can gauge, they limit people to Focus 1 and Focus 2 of consciousness. Which is very fortunate I guess.

Yours,
Frank
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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2005, 23:44:23 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Ben K
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2005, 00:47:24 »

All talk of "negative entities" behind, the fact of the matter is drugs do not effect your mind like you seem to believe. A physical chemical can not alter your non physical consiousness. Otherwise, drug problems carry over through your lives, and thats just not logical.(imo)

To answer your question, yes it is possible to take poison in moderation. You might need some tools and a microscope, but you can get a low enough dose where there will be barely any effects.

You give me that summary of effects but what you dont realize is that, like everything in life there is always a ratio of good to bad. The good effects out-weigh the bad ones for some people, others, like you, see drugs as hramful, bad, etc..

And as for negative entities, they cant really hurt you, so if you can just learn to deal with them and show them some love you will be fine. They wont be attracted to a mind full of "higher" (to use your terms Wink thoughts.

And so the only "problems" i can see with drugs are

1. Method of obtaining them

2. The effects could be too strong for you

3. You screw up and use something uncompatible with your body.

There might be more, but those are the major ones. (societies rules, cops, etc aside)

So, like a mountain climber can use gear to take away some of the risks of climbing a mountain, the risks in using drugs can be lessened by various methods(Researching what you are putting into your body, have someone sober on hand in case, etc)

But there is always risk, like everything in life, and it call comes down to personal preferance. At least it should, but most govts on this planet dont agree Wink

And yes, you would be correct in assuming that i am a drug user. Mostly psychodelics, about 3,4 times a month. But its fun, nothing more. Spiritual stuff is a whole different area of my life.
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« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2005, 07:04:25 »

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The fact of the matter is you cant. You say "Ah yes, drugs are only a shortcut" when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs. Drugs are an experiance, and there "mystic" nature draws alot of people who simply are too rooted in there objective reality to want to experiance something like an acid trip. But im not going to preach to them, its there business.

If one is smart and can see drugs for what they really are, i believe its fine. The real danger is when someone say, thinks they become a shaman because they have crazy visuals when they trip on muhsrooms. Theres no enlightenment to be found in drugs. Only if you create it.


I agree completely with this statement Ben K made.

Data,

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Well prolonged usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions.


This is only true of some drugs. The health consequences are greatly exaggerated for the most common drugs. A cigarette is far worse for your health than pot or LSD. In fact, LSD has no long-term health effects for the vast majority of people (only excepted those who have undeveloped schizophrenia), and the short-term effects are things like a slightly increased heart rate. Unless you're an undeveloped schizo (meaning you'll be schizo later anyway), the worst thing that could happen from LSD is a bad trip. Don't be stupid and do it while you're in a bad mood or afraid of what will happen and you'll have no problem. Goes along with "know what you're doing" and don't be stupid. (I've never done any illegal drugs, just researched a few things about certain ones.)

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No worries though. I've with you in that I agree drugs will never (hardly ever at anyy rate) yield any useable results. Just like freediving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.


This is of course a matter of opinion, but I would like to point out that there are opposing views here. Mainly Timothy Leary comes to mind with his arguments in favor of (proper use of) psychedelics in Buddhist practice.

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I think it is safe to say that certain drugs are bad for everyone. Sorry, my friend, but it's not all relative. If anyone takes heroin, no matter what their disposition or emotional state, they will report similar symptoms.


Same if everyone shoots themselves in the head, if you want to throw around some dramatic comparisons. But you can't throw all drugs into a big group called simply 'drugs' and call them all bad for you. Evaluate each one on an individual basis (and the list of quotes on the effects of the drugs isn't very straightforward, or at least tries to make piddly crap sound horrible).

You'll find things like LSD and shrooms aren't any harder on your body than a run around the gym (again, as long as you aren't stupid with them). Heroin and cocaine, etc., are completely different stories. You can die right off the bat from that excrement. That's why you can't generalize with illegal substances. There's a lot of variation.


So pretty much, some drugs are in fact very safe despite widespread propaganda against them. Just don't be careless with them. Know exactly what you're doing if you want to do anything and you'll be fine. Again, I've never used any illegal substances but I have looked into some of the effects of psychedelics and they tend to be extremely exaggerated. I see no reason why things like alcohol are legal while LSD is not... except for money, that is. Wink
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2005, 17:16:11 »

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All talk of "negative entities" behind, the fact of the matter is drugs do not effect your mind like you seem to believe. A physical chemical can not alter your non physical consciousness. Otherwise, drug problems carry over through your lives, and thats just not logical.(imo)


The physical, mental and non physical are very closely related. Physical chemicals do affect your consciousness, and we know this, because they produce altered states of consciousness, they can even make you unconscious. So, yes they do affect your consciousness and it does carry through with you.

Quote
To answer your question, yes it is possible to take poison in moderation. You might need some tools and a microscope, but you can get a low enough dose where there will be barely any effects.


cheesy Good answer, but it is not in moderation though is it? What you really mean it will barely produce any notictable effects. Yet, it will produce subtle effects, by killing your cells. Keep doing that, and it will eventually amount into something bigger.

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You give me that summary of effects but what you dont realize is that, like everything in life there is always a ratio of good to bad. The good effects out-weigh the bad ones for some people, others, like you, see drugs as hramful, bad, etc..


The summary I gave you was all bad. The only good you are talking about is sensations, and for those temporary moments of pleasure, you subject your mind, body and soul to something  much more damaging. The bad is outweighing the good here.

Quote
And as for negative entities, they cant really hurt you, so if you can just learn to deal with them and show them some love you will be fine. They wont be attracted to a mind full of "higher" (to use your terms thoughts.


Yeah, but how you will be able maintain "higher thoughts" when you impair your discriminatory and cognitive abilities? That is why you are susceptible to negative influences and entities. They can harm you much easily when you guard is down. Further, this business of "I will send them love, and it will be over" I recall Monroe's account of encountering two demons in the astral, that were clinging to him. He tried everything to get them off, light, love. None of it worked. He was literally screaming and crying for help.

Robert Bruce, said it quite clearly, that just one negative experience in the lower  astral, could ruin your life. He made it clear that most who had negative experiences were also drug users.


No leaf cover,

I am not sure about LSD. I will concede that the effects mentioned in the above studies were not particularly damaging. However, I do not find it good, that  this drug can cause reoccurring flashbacks, even after it has been discontinued. That suggests it has long lasting effects. I did some further research on LSD. For your consideration:

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Are there long-term consequences to taking LSD?
Hallucinogens can cause extreme, long-lasting adverse neuropsychiatric effects, like flashbacks (post-hallucination perceptual disorders), relatively long-lasting psychoses, severe depression or shizophrenia-like syndromes, especially in heavy or long-term users or in people with an underlying mental illness. Some of the long-term problems associated with chronic or heavy LSD use are:
A person can experience rapidly changing feelings, immediately and long after use.
Chronic use may cause persistent problems, depression, violent behavior, anxiety or a distorted perception of time.
Large doses may cause convulsions, coma, heart/lung failure or ruptured blood vessels in the brain.
"Flashbacks" may occur long after use.

Source: http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/atod/od_lsd.htm

Quote
LSD users quickly develop a high degree of tolerance for the drug's effects: After repeated use, they need increasingly larger doses to produce similar effects. LSD use also produces tolerance for other hallucinogenic drugs such as psilocybin and mescaline, but not to drugs such as marijuana, amphetamines, and PCP, which do not act directly on the serotonin receptors affected by LSD. Tolerance for LSD is short-lived it is lost if the user stops taking the drug for several days. There is no evidence that LSD produces physical withdrawal symptoms when chronic use is stopped.

Two long-term effects persistent psychosis and hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD), more commonly referred to as "flashbacks"-have been associated with use of LSD. The causes of these effects, which in some users occur after a single experience with the drug, are not known.

Psychosis
The effects of LSD can be described as drug-induced psychosis-distortion or disorganization of a person's capacity to recognize reality, think rationally, or communicate with others. Some LSD users experience devastating psychological effects that persist after the trip has ended, producing a long-lasting psychotic-like state. LSD-induced persistent psychosis may include dramatic mood swings from mania to profound depression, vivid visual disturbances, and hallucinations. These effects may last for years and can affect people who have no history or other symptoms of psychological disorder.


Quote
Hallucinations distort or transform shapes and movements, and they may give rise to a perception that time is moving very slowly or that the user's body is changing shape. On some trips, users experience sensations that are enjoyable and mentally stimulating and that produce a sense of heightened understanding. Bad trips, however, include terrifying thoughts and nightmarish feelings of anxiety and despair that include fears of insanity, death, or losing control.


Quote
LSD can (and does) cause severe psychological discomfort - even trauma. In fact, one bad trip can quickly make you forget dozens of ďhearts and flowersĒ trips. When bad trips do occur, they tend to take two main forms: panic attacks and psychotic reactions.
Panic Attacks:
The most common adverse reaction to LSD, panic usually centers on a fear of dying or going crazy.
Psychotic Reactions: Serious breaks with reality, psychotic episodes usually include hallucinations and delusions. LSD fueled psychotic episodes are like bad trips that don't end when the drug wears off. These reactions may be linked to the ďtriggeringĒ of preexisting problems and may require professional intervention - similar to PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.
Flashbacks: Another occasional effect of LSD are flashbacks. This is said to be the reemergence of effects -- usually panic -- days or weeks later. Since LSD is not retained in the body, (this is highly debated, btw, some say it does remain in fat cells), flashbacks are probably psychological rather than physiological in origin. Flashback triggers can include stress, severe fatigue, other drug use, or 'hints' associated with a past trip. Although acid flashbacks, like other anxiety reactions, seldom last longer than 90 minutes, they can seem endless and like a living hell, since they tend to focus on nasty aspects of bad trips. (I had one where everything I saw looked like a beating heart, it was quite frightening, it doesn't sound like it when I write this for some reason, but I can still visualize it.


Quote

Acid has very random and sometimes very frightening effects. Trips feed off a person's imagination. One person can spend 12 hours in a very happy place while someone else who's bought the same stuff can spend 12 hours lost in their own fears and paranoia.
How the trip goes has everything to do with who you are, how you're feeling and how comfortable you are with the people you are with.
A trip can speed up and slow down time.
Trips can speed up and slow down movement.
Colour, sound and objects can get distorted. Think dancing wallpaper, angry traffic cones and double vision.
Trips can make a happy person happier and a freaked out person more panicky and confused.
There is a flip side:
If panic sets in the experience can be scary and confusing.
Bad trips can be terrifying.
Flashbacks sometimes happen. This is when part of the trip is re-lived way after the trip was taken

Source: http://www.talktofrank.com/azofdrugs/L/LSD.aspx



I think from the above, LSD does not sound particularly bad or good. but it does seem to have very bad psychological side effects. What if you get a bad trip? Does anyone here have an experience with a bad trip?

Again, something that alters my consciousness, that I lose control over it, does not sound good at all. It's a bit like sleepwalking in the middle of a road amidst moving traffic or playing Russian roulette with my soul. Something not inherently good about that.

Here are some accounts of bad trips:

Quote
Q.
I did acid about 2 1/2 years ago. I had a bad trip to the point that I was drenched in sweat and my face was beak red and I was sweating so bad that sweat was running from my armpits all the way to my fingernails and just kept dripping down my fingertips like it was a waterfall. Now my everyday life has changed. Everything and everyone I look at I see clearly but I also see very light diluted black coloured lines run from where I look at, to the other side of the room. Could the bad trip and the acid cause acne? And could it cause me to have a bad memory and not to ever again be able to remember anything that well?
A.
Hi there!
The feelings and effects you describe can be pretty common when you experience a bad trip. They are considered short term and may also include the following:
™ paranoia
™ confusion
™ anxiety
™ hallucinations.

These usually cease [stop] when you stop using the drug. What you describe however seems to be longer lasting effects, which may or may not be related to the acid. You may want to keep an eye on these feelings and your overall mental well-being and think about speaking to a professional, such as a doctor or counsellor, in case there is a chance that you may experience some sort of psychosis.

A psychosis is a condition where a person experiences some loss of contact with reality. A person with a psychosis can experience any one or more of the following:
™ auditory hallucinations (hearing voices that arenít there)
™ visual hallucinations (seeing things which arenít there)
™ delusions (believing things which arenít true)
™ jumbled thoughts
™ strange behaviour.
Acid is a hallucinogen, and like all other hallucinogens, when you take it, you risk having a bad trip.
Bad trips involve strong feelings of anxiety or fear. The hallucinations can be unpleasant, or they can be so intense that you may feel you are losing control or going crazy.
The reasons for bad trips are not always known, but they are particularly common among first time users, or those who are already predisposed to feelings of anxiety, panic or paranoia (which sounds like it might include you).

Source:  http://www.somazone.com.au/content.asp?Document_ID=1082


Quote

A bad trip (on drugs)   
My wonderful, clever, sensible son, the last person you ever thought would turn to drugs, turned up unexpectedly at home last weekend in a terrible state. He says that he had a bad trip on LSD a few weeks ago and has been messed up ever since. He came home because he didn't know where else to turn.  I was amazed when he told me that everyone in his house this year (he is in his final year at university) regularly takes drugs, usually marijuana and often ecstasy, and he often joins in.  What can we do to help him get over this experience - is there any treatment for a bad trip? And what should he do to get through finals - we are worried that going back to his house (and to all the drugs) will be a disaster for his studies.   Amanda   

Dr Trisha Macnair responds   
   
I am sorry to hear about his experience but it is sadly quite a common one. Almost all young people are vulnerable to the lure of drugs - especially when they are immersed in a culture where they are widely used, no matter how sensible they seem.
LSD, or acid, affects some of the key sensory areas of the brain to cause distortion of sensory perception, changing the world into a weird and unfamiliar place full of surreal colours, sounds and sensations. There may be hallucinations and mystical experiences which may be pleasant, but equally these new experiences may be quite terrifying.
The nature of the trip is greatly influenced by how the person is feeling at the time. Loneliness, insecurity about friends or work, or worries about upcoming exams could all be greatly exaggerated, making the experience very unpleasant. Very occasionally the extreme panic and agitation of a 'bad trip' have lead to suicide, or to accidental deaths as users have tried to flee from their hallucinations.
The effects of a bad trip can last days and even weeks and months. I have one friend who has never managed to forget her experience more than 20 years ago. There may be <depression.shtml>, disorientation, anxiety and a feeling of overwhelming fear.

Flashbacks can occur
Flashbacks can occur long after the episode, which can be extremely upsetting, with strong feelings of fear and <panic_attacks.shtml>.
Sometimes acute mental illness is triggered by a bad trip, with psychotic or extreme depressive problems which can become a long term chronic problem. Very occasionally this has lead to suicide.
Working through the experience may help
There are no particular treatments for a bad trip, although if depression or anxiety are part of the problem then medication specifically for these may help. But your son may get a lot of benefit from working through the experience with someone used to dealing with this sort of problem. With time, the horror should subside to levels he can cope with. His GP should be able to help and may want to refer him to see a psychiatrist if necessary. Local drug counselling services may also be able to recommend someone, and may be able to help your son in general with his drug use.



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had no idea where I was except that I was in a car, I was scared I thought I would either die or go insane forever. I remember one thought going through my head continuously 'I am the biggest lunatic alive. People will charge admission to see me. My parents will feel I am a disgrace and disown me. All because I know the meaning of it all but cannot explain it.' The strange thing about this thought was that I was not consciously thinking it and yet it was running through my head so clearly I could hear it. More here:  http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2000


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Im telling this story of my last experience on acid to warn other users (particularly new users) about the effects of this drug.

I was with my future boyfriend and our mutual best friend when i bought 2 tabs of acid off a guy who I had scored off before. He said they were double dipped and more potent. I looked at them and said 'what the hell.' I had only taken acid twice before and each time had only ingested half a tab, so my decision to take two was a BIG mistake. I swallowed them and then we went to this park we always went to and parked to listened to tunes in the car. After about half an hour I was starting to feel the effects and was feeling pretty good. Then my jerk-off friend (knowing Im phobic about spiders) ran his hands up my arm like a spider and told me that a big spider was racing up my arm. I screamed and started to cry hysterically. I jumped out of the car screaming and then I noticed a cop across the street giving a guy a ticket and that sent me further into the abyss. My friends put me back in the car and said we were going to go driving to get away from the cop and calm me down.

At this point I was out of my mind. I was fluctuating between hysterical crying and laughing. I could not control my emotions at all. As we were driving, the oncoming cars started to look very menacing. The grills became mouths with very sharp teeth and looked like they would eat me. We pulled over and I found a shard of glass and I refused to put it down believing it was somehow a link to reality. I was sure I was going insane. I was still crying and screaming and my boyfriend had to go to a guitar lesson and left me in the car with our friend. We were in the parking lot and he was talking to me trying to take my mind off my trip. For about 20 minutes it was working, but then his head turned into a big rat and I, again, lost it. For about 7 hours I was in that state of hysterics, sure I was dying or going to become insane.

When I finally did come down I was emotionally exhausted and my voice had blown out. I have never been so frightened before in my life and have not touched it since. I now suffer from a panic disorder. It causes long lasting panic attacks that mimic my trip in many ways. I, and my therapist, belive my acid trip caused this. Well, not caused but uncovered it. I wish every day that I had not taken that drug, as it was so traumatic that I now have this disorder and also other psychological symptoms that I did not have before my experience. I am not stating that LSD caused my problems in any way, just was the traumatic experience that unleashed a preexisting condition. However, my problem could have lied dormant and never surfaced at all if I had not indulged in this drug use.


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I am presently aged 45, and took LSD at aged 16, during 1972. I can honestly say that the trip experience was so profound and real, that it has affected me ever since.

My parents were on holiday, and I tripped at home, with a work colleague, who was not a good friend, just somebody I knew. I thought LSD was going to be all flowers and pretty lights, etc., and was looking forward to the experience. We bought the black microdot tabs from a dealer that he knew, who warned us that the tabs were strong, and to make sure we were somewhere safe. On the way home on a bus, we dropped the tabs. We got home OK, and decided to go to a local shop. The time was around 5-6pm. After about half an hour, we started to feel a bit light headed, and giggly. We returned home, and sat in the front room, and put on some Deep Purple on the hi fi. I can remember moving my hands, and seeing the fingertips trailing behind, and the seeing the walls swaying. Also, sounds coming out of the hi fi speakers were in colour. Then, bang. I lost an hour or two here, my colleague said that I just wandered round and round in circles, in a trance state. I can vaguely remember seeing my mind on different planes and levels, shooting out into infinity.

I then came round, and noticed the guy with me staring at me in an all-knowing way. He had tripped before, and I began to get the AWFUL feeling that he had tricked me into taking the tab. As the time went on, I began to get paranoid, and started to realize that this trip was going to last for eternity, and, in fact, my whole life previous to this, was also part of the trip. I saw my parents sitting on the sofa laughing at me, ďyou've been conned againĒ on their faces. I looked at the guy with me, yes, I now realized I knew him, I'd always known him, for eternity, I was in a death trip now, I was sucked into a spiral, everything I looked at, I knew what was coming, DEJA VU on a massive scale. Fear is not a good description of the horror of this experience.

Several times in the trip, I became 'aware' and tried to tell myself, this is stupid, you are you, I repeated my name over and over. At one stage, I decided to go for a walk. It was dark, about 11pm. We caught a bus, God knows how. Walked round a town centre. It was raining. The rain hit my face and felt like acid burning holes. I looked at the guy with me, yes, his name, everything, he was the bastard that always tricks me into taking LSD, and I fall for it every time, for infinity -whoosh - away again down the deja vu spiral, horrendous sickening fear. At one stage in town, I looked at an EXIT sign. Yes, ex it, this is it, it is the trip, whoosh - away again. Managed to get home safely by walking home. We had left the front door unlocked, but got lucky. I then spent the next 2-3 hours battling with my sanity, as time and time again I suffered the realization, and gut-wrenching fear, that I had done this millions of times before, and could never escape it. I eventually came down at about 4 am, staring at a gas fire, in a state of shock.

The following days I wandered round in a daze, trying to come to terms with what had happened to me. I only took LSD one more time after that, a half a tab. To convince myself it was OK. It wasnít. I went to rock concert at a stadium, it was dark, I saw the EXIT signs, I was back on the same trip, panicked, left early, and went home, lay in bed in a state of fear.

The following year, I smoked some weed, became paranoid, and suddenly flash backed, I was still on the trip. I ran panicking, itís all I can do for a few seconds, then the feeling goes. I tried sniffing solvent, bang, whilst high, I got the same feeling, still on the trip, panicked and ran again. People look at me strange, Iím not surprised. The years went on. I married and had children, got a good job. Whilst at work, I had to go into a dark hall, with an illuminated exit sign, bang, - youíve guessed it, I flash backed again, deja vu, the people with me are all part of the conspiracy. And it goes on. Iíve had about 7 or 8 flashbacks, some being as far as 8 years apart. The last one was last week. I was in a panicky situation involving my job, involving danger. I was dealing with something, when I had the realisation, deja vu feeling again, OH NO, is what I say. Christ, itís a nightmare.

So, during my life, Ive tried TM, Buddhism, Martial arts, various other spiritual paths, Iím lost, Iím searching for sanity, I honestly donít know, 29 years later, what is reality. When I die, I hope itís blackness and peace, and not part of a neverending trip, and Iíve got to suffer the experience again.

My advice to anybody reading this who hasnít tripped yet, DONíT.


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I dropped 1 tab, basically had a very sketchy bad trip. The next morning I woke up and everything was a little flashy and i thought it would go away but it didn't.

I have had it for 8 months know and I often find myself trying to peer through the weirdness but i never can. I call it the 'CONFUSION' because it is very unpleasant especially at the age of 15. To tell the truth I really hate it and wish I could reverse to the day I took it and get ticked instead.


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I will never forget my first and only experience with LSD. One night after work my ex-friend called me. He asked if I wanted to come over and go on a trip. I was very excited and I rushed over. When I got there my friends (we will call D.B. and J.K. were there along with a boy who I did not know. D.B. pulled out six hits of an acid called Dancing Condoms, it was a puzzle with little dancing condoms on it. It was me and the other boy's first time so we only took a half of a hit. I waited about 45 minutes and nothing was happening. I noticed that the other boy was acting very weird. I thought maybe the acid was fake so I took the rest of the dancing condom and 3/4 of a hit of white blotter.

A little later D.B. went to get some bud. When he got back we smoked 1 good sized bowl. About a minute after the bowl I was feeling very bonked up. At first I felt very high and started to laugh at evrything. D.B. and I went back to his room to get another bowl. I was sitting on his bed and I dazed off I had thoughts of life and death without even trying to think about it. Suddenly the whole room caved in on me and I came out of the daze. D.B. kept talking to me but I didn't even know where I was. I could not comprehend why I was this bonked up. I looked at the pot and all I saw was pine needles. I asked D.B. if that was what we smoked and he asked me what I was talking about. I looked again and It was regular marijuana.

We went in the living room and sat down. I kept dazing off and suddenly the room went dark ond colors of neon green and pink were everywhere. I felt like I was all alone and nobody else realy existed but they were all just images. I was looking at my arms and they turned into clay and crumbled to the ground. Everybodies hair was changing color and everyones faces were scrambling around. I was feeling very scared. D.B. took me in the other room and he kept yelling at me. He told that the demons were coming and I was going to go to hell. Suddenly I saw a flash of light and D.B. became a demond. The vains were popping out of his head and his eyes were dripping blood and hirns came out of his head. I started talking to J.K. and he calmed me down he told me it was from the acid and D.B. was just trying to scare me. In the middle of our talk his face formed into another demon and he was screaming at me. I was looking at the walls and it was covered with huge pentagrams. After a few hours of running through the house screaming I finally came down.

After that, ever time I smoked weed I saw designs on the walls. I started to trip one time after 2 gravity bong hits. The room was melting and I was extremely paranoid. If I didn't have a bad trip my first time I would probably do it again, but out of fear I will never take it again.


I think it is suffice to say, from all the above accounts from real people, that even a single bad trip can ruin your life, your mind and your soul. As I said, it's lot like playing Russian roulette with your soul.  I don't think that's good. There is indeed something inherently bad about drugs.

There seems to be many factors that affect your chances of getting bad trips, all that are uncontrollable:

1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences

It seems like anyone can have a bad trip, and once they do, it can change them forever. I would imagine, especially for someone whose been meditating for a long time, it would throw water on all their efforts and development.

I think the wisest think anyone can do, is say no to these drugs Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2005, 20:38:57 »

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However, I do not find it good, that this drug can cause reoccurring flashbacks, even after it has been discontinued. That suggests it has long lasting effects. I did some further research on LSD. For your consideration:


There are a few surveys out there (ie www.textfiles.com/drugs/lsd-surv.txt , more on Google) specifically aimed at the numbers of bad trips and (negative) flashbacks that show that they're relatively uncommon. 'Flashbacks' are usually reported as being triggered by experiences reminiscent of a trip and are only negative when there is still fear or association with a bad trip and therefore not really a separate problem from bad trips (when it's a problem at all).

Either way they can of course be avoided with some basic knowledge of what you're doing (which includes taking the right doses..) and not being in a bad mood, as LSD plays off you and your emotions majorly.

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I think from the above, LSD does not sound particularly bad or good. but it does seem to have very bad psychological side effects. What if you get a bad trip? Does anyone here have an experience with a bad trip?


As I say, it feeds off of your emotions, not much unlike an astral trip from what I've read here. It's an individual responsibility. The way you're trying to make it sound much worse than it is doesn't do much to help the negative connotations already surrounding LSD much, either.

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Again, something that alters my consciousness, that I lose control over it, does not sound good at all. It's a bit like sleepwalking in the middle of a road amidst moving traffic or playing Russian roulette with my soul. Something not inherently good about that.


Well, if that's how you feel.. wink

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I think it is suffice to say, from all the above accounts from real people, that even a single bad trip can ruin your life, your mind and your soul.


Yes, it could. If you're afraid of it or having doubts - just don't ever do it. Smiley

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1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences


This can very easily be simplified:

Being in, or put into, a bad mood, or having a latent mental disorder.

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It seems like anyone can have a bad trip, and once they do, it can change them forever. I would imagine, especially for someone whose been meditating for a long time, it would throw water on all their efforts and development.


Anyone can have a bad trip in the same way anyone can be hit by a car while walking across a road. Don't take the chance if it scares you, because LSD - unlike a bad driver - is dependent on how you feel.

I don't understand how water would necessarily be thrown onto meditation efforts, etc., either. Personally I don't take reality so seriously, or cling to any of my beliefs so strictly, that a single experience would so throw into question any of my experiences more than my own questioning already has. I don't know the absolute nature of reality nor particularly care to know at this point - because not only is it not relevant but for me it is also a headache and may not even exist. To suffice it to say that anything of what we experience now is not as real as we would like to believe anyway is enough for me, and so I don't put much faith into anything but logic, as temporary as it may be, and a nature striving for love. But I digress slightly..

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I think the wisest think anyone can do, is say no to these drugs


And that's why you shouldn't take them. From my point of view, the wisest thing anyone can do (say), is let people do whatever the hell they want. At any rate LSD or similar chemicals are not that bad. I could make a case for sex having potential for being much more harmful if I wanted.
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2005, 23:01:43 »

No Leaf Cover,

The servery you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.

You can be hit by a car, but is that going to ruin your life? Take note of the 45 year old's account, he only took one shot LSD once at the age of 16, and has been suffering from flashbacks of his nightmarish experience since. I think that is very damaging, far more than a car accident.

I read on the site that archives all these bad trips, of people who have been taking LSD more than 30 times, and then suddenly had a bad experience, and it has changed their life completely around.

I can see why a bad trip can have this effect over you. If you consider for more than 12 hours you are experiencing your worst nightmares. Suppose, you were afraid of snakes, and while tripping, you came across a piece of rope on the floor, that looked like a snake due to the lighting. Suddenly, your mind recalls the association of snakes and your attitude of fear towards them, and as you have so little control over your subconscious process, the snake comes to life and slithers across the floor. You attempt to run away from the snake, and it follows you. You run around your house for ours, you scream, yell, moan. The snake multiplies into more snakes, suddenly the entire room is full of snakes. You scream for your life. You just want to get the hell out. Suddenly, the worst of your fears come true, the snakes start to jump at you, you fall on the ground, and snakes start to eat away at your body alive and enter your throat, you are gasping and choking, you can no longer scream, slowly you see your body erode away.

Now, if you had to experience the above for 12 hours, it does not matter if you know it was a trip or not, all the feelings and memories are real, and they will remain with you for the rest of your life. No wonder why bad experiences ruin peoples lives. Why does anyone want to subject themselves to something like that?

As I outlined before, the factors are uncontrollable. You could easily evoke a suppressed memory through any kind of association. As you don't have any control over your mind. Literally, anything can happen.

At the end of the day, even after reading experiences of people whose lives have been ruined from drugs,  you still think drugs are okay, then I can only say best of luck. I've heard many say "it won't happen to me" but it sometimes does.

Otherwise, I think it is quite clear, drugs are bad for you Yes, even legal medicinal drugs as runlola points out. I know many people who are on medical drugs, who experience all kinds of side effects and are fed up of them. I prefer going the natural way myself.
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2005, 02:31:44 »

Again, your missing the point lol. Anything you put into your body is "bad" for you. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE MODERATION.

MODERATION

And yes, a bad trip can be bad, but its just that, a trip. If you let something that happened to you while on a conscious-alterting substance effect you to the point where it is a week after the incident and you are still shaking in fear, you have much worse problems than drugs.

And, once again, a person with positive thoughts, who is healthy, and has no hidden psychological "disorders" will not have a bad trip. It just further reinforces the fact that WE CREATE OUR REALITY! If you go into the trip thinking about demons, guess whats going to happen.

So data: if you feel a bad trip can ruin your life, IT WILL!

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1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences


If you have never done a psychadelic, i would really refrain from this conversation.

The only real uncontrolable risk i see there is 1.3 and 4 are the same, since when is "just before or during the trip" not recent, lol.

You can control external events to a huge extent. Its called staying home, lol. If you mean things like you jumping off the roof, or stabbing someone on accident, these risks are there during everday life as well. And like in life, anxiety can only control you as long as you let it.
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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2005, 05:39:12 »

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The servery you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.


Not off hand. Unfortunately it's probably the best survey either one of us have to go off of, if you want to use any such data at all. It's much more professional and has a much wider sample than the far-from-usual stories you chose to share with us. Hell, you even made up an especially bad story for us to read!

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You can be hit by a car, but is that going to ruin your life?


lol. There's a much higher chance of it ruining your life than a bad LSD trip would ever have. Wink

And dude, you're having some extreme problems fairly assessing information if you think a bad LSD trip could be far worse than a car accident could be. You can browse photographs (from www.rotten.com among others) of people that've been in automobile accidents with their brains scattered all over the road from a missing chunk of skull over their forehead. That's pretty life-changing right there as far as I'm concerned.

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I read on the site that archives all these bad trips, of people who have been taking LSD more than 30 times, and then suddenly had a bad experience, and it has changed their life completely around.


And again, that's a reason as to why you should never do it.

- - Insert gruesome fairy tale here - -

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I can see why a bad trip can have this effect over you. If you consider for more than 12 hours you are experiencing your worst nightmares. Suppose, you were afraid of snakes, and while tripping, you came across a piece of rope on the floor, that looked like a snake due to the lighting. Suddenly, your mind recalls the association of snakes and your attitude of fear towards them, and as you have so little control over your subconscious process, the snake comes to life and slithers across the floor. You attempt to run away from the snake, and it follows you. You run around your house for ours, you scream, yell, moan. The snake multiplies into more snakes, suddenly the entire room is full of snakes. You scream for your life. You just want to get the hell out. Suddenly, the worst of your fears come true, the snakes start to jump at you, you fall on the ground, and snakes start to eat away at your body alive and enter your throat, you are gasping and choking, you can no longer scream, slowly you see your body erode away.


If you imagine that happening, then guess what: that's likely exactly what's going to happen! I can see exactly why you are so dead set on making all drugs out to be the absolute devil when you have such images on your mind.

Btw, LSD trips are not usually 12 hours long, though I can see why you would of course use that figure in your fictitious story.

Anyway, nice attempt at scaring me, I guess, but unfortunately I don't go for the whole fear thing. It rather annoys me greatly, seeing as how so many people are scared into not thinking straight in the face of concepts like Hell or events like 9/11 (or that all drugs are bad in this case).

Elementary psychology/sociology, and I'm sure you pulled that out of your behind for that very reason. I'm not really even amused by the fairy tale itself, but just that you tried to pull that one on me. I find it extremely manipulative and disrespectful.

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As I outlined before, the factors are uncontrollable.


This isn't true. Only latent mental disorders are uncontrollable. Bad trips are not random and are not like a bad lottery. They result from bad moods. To solve this extremely challenging obstacle (...), simply don't take LSD when you're in a bad mood!

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Otherwise, I think it is quite clear, drugs are bad for you Yes, even legal medicinal drugs as runlola points out. I know many people who are on medical drugs, who experience all kinds of side effects and are fed up of them. I prefer going the natural way myself.


Then have at it! I suppose you also eat only the safest, unadultered fruits and vegetables and refrain from any US beef, pork, chicken, unpurified water, or any products containing any of those as ingredients because otherwise you are constantly consuming unnatural and harmful chemicals every single day. In today's world that's hardly avoidable and yet the practical common consequences seem very minute and yet comparable to the practical common consequences of LSD usage. There are of course unusual cases, but yours are hardly the norm or else the drug obviously would not be as immensely popular as it is.

You have to admit, it's pretty obvious how little damage LSD actually does when an anti-drug zealot such as yourself resorts to submitting a morbid fantasy and saying 'this could happen to you!'.

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The only real uncontrolable risk i see there is 1.3 and 4 are the same, since when is "just before or during the trip" not recent, lol.


I don't think data is out for an accurate assessment, Ben K. He's simply trying to push his points regardless.
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« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2005, 07:18:45 »

He tends to do that Wink

Its ok though. To each his own I say.
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« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2005, 13:16:01 »

Well, I am realize I am debating with drug users here, so I can understand why you would viciously defend your position. I just wanted to clarify for something, the drugs you are defending are illegal. If you are caught in possesion of them, you could get 7 years in jail. You are commiting a crime everytime you possess drugs.

So someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.

Now, the case for why these drugs are bad for you, is clear enough. This is not some conspiracy to deny you drugs, and if you think so, it's probably the effects of the drugs Wink
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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2005, 18:01:50 »

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So someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.


The same people who passed the patriot act? The same people that invaded not one, but two countries in a matter of 3 years? Sorry Im not too big on those people right now. I would rather my life be run by me, not some suits on capitol hill.

I would suggest, once again, that you go out there and do your own research. Do you seriously think drugs are illegal because the U.S. government thinks they are dangerous? Why do you think they care what you put into your body. Go down to your local pharmacy. all those drugs in that store are more dangerous than anything you can get out of the ground. Alcohol, for instance is 20x worse for you(mentally and physically) than marijuana. Why is alcohol legal? You said yourself that your father was an alcoholic. Where was your government then? Another example, morning glory seeds. Here in the U.S you can go to your local wal-mart, pick up 5 packs of morning glory seeds, eat them, and it has basically the same EXACT effect as LSD. So why are seeds legal? There are countless more examples, but i can assure you, no governments care about you. You are a number.

 If you really want to get into a debate on the dangers of drug using and why they are illegal, read up a bit and maybe get some experiance before coming in here and blabbing what you read in some book or saw on T.V.
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« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2005, 19:22:10 »

No Leaf Cover,

You are being paranoid(effects of drugs?, j/k) I am not trying to scare you, and I am not an anti drug zealot. I am simply someone who doesn't support drugs. That is just my opinion on it, and it also happens to be the professional opinion as well.

The hypothetical was simply to outline to you how a bad trip can easily be precipitated, depending on associations. Most of us are afraid of snakes, and if during a trip, the subconscious mind creates a snake, we may feel fear, and just that trigger alone, could turn an otherwise positive experience into a negative one.

As I said such factors like these are uncontrollable, and if you read all the accounts I quoted above, you will see what I am saying is indeed true. The problem it is very random. You have little to no conscious control in a trip. Anything can happen, and if a particularly bad trip happens and endures for hours, that trauma will remain with you for a long time. D

Finally, yes I do eat fruit and vegetable and drink water, and I am completely vegetarian, because I respect the sanctity of life. Don't try and tell me this is a bad thing. This is all oxygenated food and is nourished by the sun. I believe water has life force, because when I actually drink water, I feel like I have been rejuvenated. I feel as if my entire body has come alive. I am very proud of being natural, thank you very much.

And I am very conscious of what I put in me, and respect my mind and body.


Ben K, they're illegal in most countries, enough said.
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« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2005, 22:04:01 »

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Well, I am realize I am debating with drug users here, so I can understand why you would viciously defend your position.


I've never done any illegal substances. That includes LSD.

But, I don't give two craps for the law except to avoid being arrested. I really don't recall ever giving them permission to govern me anyway, but I suppose that's the corruption of society.

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You are being paranoid(effects of drugs?, j/k) I am not trying to scare you, and I am not an anti drug zealot. I am simply someone who doesn't support drugs. That is just my opinion on it, and it also happens to be the professional opinion as well.


That's all fine if you don't like the effects of certain drugs on your body and don't want to do them, of course. You were, however, unproportionately representing the potential of negative experiences from LSD. This is no doubt because of your strong personal opinion, which you're of course entitled to, but it doesn't make for a fair assessment or argument.

I don't do these things either, but I don't have any urges to push my personal views on others. Opinions are just that - opinions.

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Finally, yes I do eat fruit and vegetable and drink water, and I am completely vegetarian, because I respect the sanctity of life. Don't try and tell me this is a bad thing. This is all oxygenated food and is nourished by the sun. I believe water has life force, because when I actually drink water, I feel like I have been rejuvenated. I feel as if my entire body has come alive. I am very proud of being natural, thank you very much.


That's very good! Now all you have to do is filter the air that you breathe and find a way to avoid all the radiation leaking from various devices all over the country. My point is that we can cut down on the harmful things that our bodies endure to keep them in good shape, but minor wear and tear is a part of life, especially in today's world. It's something we face every day.

Runlola,

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uh, yeah, I do. First, unless you tried all of these drugs you shouldn't talk about it because..you really don't know what you are talking about. I am not allowed to glorify drugs according to Nay, so I can't go into why it might be a good thing. It's not so bad to try, it's when you become a user that can never stop. Even a moderate user that can never stop. If you don't think you can walk away from it, don't try it. Don't even try smoking.


My comment was directed towards data. LSD, among other hallucinogenic drugs, is not addictive. If its use cannot be stopped, it's simply because the user is unwilling to stop. Stopping regular use of LSD does not cause any sort of withdrawal problems.
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Ben K
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« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2005, 22:14:21 »

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As I said such factors like these are uncontrollable, and if you read all the accounts I quoted above, you will see what I am saying is indeed true. The problem it is very random. You have little to no conscious control in a trip. Anything can happen, and if a particularly bad trip happens and endures for hours, that trauma will remain with you for a long time. D


Utter bs. If you have ever tripped on any drug you would know this. You always have control. There is a difference between Control and the Illusion Of Control. Iam sorry, but really, if you arent a dumbass you should be fine.

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Ben K, they're illegal in most countries, enough said.


What does that "say"? You didnt answer any of my questions. Truth is, you look at countries like Denmark and you see what society would be like if uptight a-holes didnt try to shove there views down anyones mouths.

Does any of your opinion have any basis in experiance? I mean no offense, but it seems you come here and, instead of questioning your own beliefs, try to fit them into this little frame of yogaism. The truth is theres alot more out there. A person doesnt need to read eastern philosophy to be "enlightened". Its a very easy process if you just go with it.

With regards to snakes, when you are on a trip, it just doesnt work that way. First of all, not everyone even hallucinates. Second of all, you cant consciously "trigger" any hallucination just like you cant trigger an obe. It just happens. And usually, unless you are uptight going INTO the trip, the visuals will be much more fun(walls melting, things bending, etc.) Why would you even want to think of snakes? Your mind is in such an altered state that if you havent been there its hard to talk about. Sort of like when you AP, your fears materialize. You can just laugh at them. Fear shouldnt be a factor in anything, especially something thats meant to be "fun" like APing, tripping, etc.

But like i said, most people with half a brain would trip fine, and again, i dont think its fair for someone whos never even been in one of these states to argue over there use.
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Babar
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« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2005, 23:08:33 »

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ah... but once you use LSD it stays forever in your spinal fluid.


Thats a myth, same with it damaging chromosones.
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2005, 23:11:24 »

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...Similarly, myths regarding the retention of LSD in the brain stem and spinal fluid are completely false as well.


http://www.streetdrugtruth.com/drugs/lsd.php4

I've heard the exact same thing from friends, though. I guess it's just a popular myth. :/
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2005, 23:54:04 »

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Even if LSD did find its way into your spinal fluid (which it does not) it would simply be flushed away. NASA cannot test you for lifetime LSD use by taking a spinal tap, so even if you have at some point used LSD, you may still be able to get a job as an astronaut if you are properly qualified (yet another myth hopefully dispelled).


It's on that same link.

http://www.streetdrugtruth.com/drugs/lsd.php4


LSD is expensive to test for, and drug tests don't usually cover LSD probably for that very reason.
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Souljah333
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« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2005, 00:51:23 »

i was thinking about posting something along these line, and figured i'd add it in on the end of this post...since all this has my panties in a "slight" twist. where to start?!?
 
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when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs.
that made me "actually" LOL!!! and it's too true. i guess that would place BenK , no_leaf_clover,and I on the same team (sad there has to be sides...always).
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Well prolonged usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions. Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasant effects. So there is something inherently not good about drugs.
...i'm not going to bother arguing that point of view. the general population should NOT take drugs, bcuz they're too messed up, basically too "IRRESPONSIBLE", and in need of escapes. we've all heard the saying that "guns don't kill people...people do". well, DRUGS DON'T CREATE DEPENDENCY...PEOPLE DO.

 I REALLY don't want to push buttons, but some of you guys make it so inviting...i can't help myself.  
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drugs will never (hardly ever at any rate) yield any usable results. Just like free diving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.
...tell that to Vincent Van Gogh, Edgar Allen Poe, Alister Crowley, Da Vinci, Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman,  Degas, Toulouse-Lautrec, Gauguin, Picasso, Andrew Jackson,Teddy Roosevelt, Ernest Hemingway, Jack London (not to mention the more current artists), and almost every GREAT mind in history!!! (of course very few people a have a true appreciation for sheer genius these days, but i'll add that the Olsin Twins, Eminem, and Sponge Bob Square Pants...all definite drug users!) P.S. submarine or freediving? aren't we forgetting the simple and efficient astral travel?!? This duality must end guys...if we're ever going to get out of the box.

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it is probably impossible to create the chemicals that LSD creates in your brain on your own.
WE ARE ALL CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS. and yes...you ABSOLUTELY have everything within you to create LSD, DMT, DXM, and every other drug known to man...right inside your very own body. amazing!
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We are not really talking about DXM are we? We are talking about recreational drugs
...to some people DXM is a recreational drug, as is silver spray paint, rubber cement, and glade air freshner. lets not split hairs.
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Blood pressure
Memory loss
Aggression and violence
Panic
Psychosis
Reduced cognition(as if it wasn't low enough already)
Confusion
Depression
Insomnia
Addiction
Severe anxiety/paranoia
Higher body temperature
Damage to brain cells and other parts of the brain and body

those are the same symptoms as everyday stress.
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The "problem" with drugs is they give people experiences they are not psychologically equipped to handle
ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!
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The survey you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.
you cannot trust ANY survey...there is always a directive.
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So someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.
you wouldn't believe me if i told who pushes the MOST/WORST/MOST ADDICTIVE drugs in the country!?!

whew! this might garner more posts than that "how to pick up a chick" thread! wink i'm not opposed to much of anything (expect child molesting, and male beastiality (female bestiality=pretty much ok with). generally i'd have to say that doing anything AGAINST someone elses WILL is BAD...maybe even EVIL?!? drugs definitely don't fit in here, unless your shoving a needle in someones arm, or using that date-rape drug. yes i use drugs. YES I'VE HAD A FEW BAD TRIPS (one that changed my life forever). funny thing is it wasn't the drugs. i've staved off a good while to get my head together, bcuz drugs for me tend to work as a magnifier of my reality/headspace. if i smoke pot and get "off" effects. i know that something is wrong in my waking life...i'm not working up to par, or i'm doing something against my nature, etc. if i smoke and enjoy it...i know everything is ok. i personally wouldn't prescribe the home lab s**t, but that's just me. there will come a point in time (which i am working towards) when i will take some BIGGER steps into the unknown. the fantasy involves a shaman, a jungle, and some major plants, but i'm unqualified to say any more. there will come a time when i'll have to meet those monsters again, if i'm ever going to break free/break out the other side. i will NOT do this without someone extremely PROFESSIONAL, and that isn't some dork in a white lab coat...that's some toothless wonder with a bone through their nose, and moss loincloth.

DATA STICK WITH YOUR CONVICTIONS & NEVER, EVER, EVER, TRY IT!!!
i know that a lot of my reply seemed directed at you, and that was not my intention. i complete RESPECT your perspective (and others) and where you are right now and where you may go. i sympathize with your childhood experiences...i suffered a lot of abuse as child as well. strange thing was my parents were hippies (i smoked my first joint when i was six) and everything seemed fun and easy and creative...till they stopped being hippies and feel back into the s**t...but that's not applicable here.

BENK...HAVE YOU TRIED ABSINTHE? I'VE BEEN VERY INTERESTED IN IT OF LATE...LOT OF THINGS POINTING ME IN THAT DIRECTION. THINKING ABOUT MAKING UP A BATCH. PERSONALLY I LIKE CHARTREUSE, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAD ANY TALES ABOUT THAT OR POPPY SEED TEA (SEEMS TO BE A BIG TREND OUT WEST). ANTIQUE DRUGS?!?   wink

I THINK YOU AND I ARE THE ONLY ONES POSTING THAT HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH A VARIETY OF HALLUCINOGENS...WOULD LIKE TO HEAR MORE OF THE "TRIPS" AND LESS OF THE "DEBATE"
(if possible) rolleyes

sincerely y'alls BIG SISTER
333

p.s. i've mentioned this in another post, but...KEEP IT NATURAL! GROW OR WILDCRAFT YOUR OWN HERBS/PLANTS (drugs)...DO NOT TRUST ANYONE!!! (THIS IS FROM EXPERIENCE...TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE). AND NEVER, EVER, EVER DO DRUGS WITH A BUNCH OF STUPID YAHOOS, OR STRANGERS! ONLY WITH PEOPLE YOU LOVE AND TRUST THAT ARE ON THE SAME WAVE LENGTH...........................YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED shocked
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paint1
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« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2005, 06:10:36 »

My friend who swears he never dreams, recently pulled a muscle and was prescribed ibuprofen 400mg. Now he says he has 12 to 14 very vivid and detailed dreams nightly and remembers them. By chance I had a coffee with our mutual doctor & mentioned this. He said this is a very common side effect of this muscle relaxant. This can be bought over the counter.
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jilola
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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2005, 11:45:22 »

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I REALLY don't want to push buttons, but some of you guys make it so inviting...i can't help myself.
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drugs will never (hardly ever at any rate) yield any usable results. Just like free diving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.
...tell that to Vincent Van Gogh, Edgar Allen Poe, Alister Crowley, Da Vinci, Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, Degas, Toulouse-Lautrec, Gauguin, Picasso, Andrew Jackson,Teddy Roosevelt, Ernest Hemingway, Jack London (not to mention the more current artists), and almost every GREAT mind in history!!! (of course very few people a have a true appreciation for sheer genius these days, but i'll add that the Olsin Twins, Eminem, and Sponge Bob Square Pants...all definite drug users!) P.S. submarine or freediving? aren't we forgetting the simple and efficient astral travel?!? This duality must end guys...if we're ever going to get out of the box.


So you are saying they were geniuses as a result of using drugs? Or they were already geniuses who chose to use drugs? There's a diffference.

What you failed to pick up from my post, especially the freediving analogy, is that it referred to the idea people have that drugs will result in instantaneous spiritual gain and thus fall into using them for all the wrong reasons.
I have no trouble accepting people using any substance they care of use andd given a chance and the proper circumstances I'd probably join some of them.

But you did push oine button: Olsen Twins and Spongebob are geniuses? Who'dve'thunk!


2cents & L&L
Jouni
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Souljah333
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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2005, 15:58:39 »

Babar started a thread
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Has anybody tried using drugs as a means to attain the experiense like: ie Nitrous Oxide, dmt, Ketamine etc etc?

Good question, although the with hindsight it probably should have concluded with "how are the effects different when taking drugs vs. not taking drugs...then it would have left less room for speculation.

Minus BenK and myself...6 pages have been written by those who are NOT drug user's...(stating mostly the drastic downfalls, the poisonous attributes, and oh-so-typically winding up on the point  of illegality. (we all know these things)(we all know so damn much about everything...don't we). And may it be understood that I have a problem...not with any individuals right to live in whatever mindset they choose, nor to contemplate the things or worlds outside...but to ignorantly (sorry there is no other word) draw boxes around other people, and force that their (conditioned) view point, supported by the majority of "decent/upstanding/functional/law-abiding" citizens it the ONLY CORRECT function....but on to the free-diving issue...

What does the Titanic represent? A legend? A piece of our history that sleeps in the quiet depths of the ocean...longing to be discovered? What does the ocean represent? A world outside our normal function? A mystic playground full of unimaginable things? Something we are ultimately connected to that is as familiar as home? Astral Pulse would then be a place for those who have on summer vacation (in between important things of life) frolicked in it's refreshing, wet, and conductive glory. Is it not also a place for those that have ventured out further, and those who have yet to venture? Is there no space for the stories and experiences of those that HAVE BEEN THERE, and survived?!? I JUST HATE IT (AND I TRY NOT TO HATE ANYTHING). I CAN'T STAND DUALITY!!! I can't help myself when it ALWAYS has to be one side or the other. Drugs are okay/Drugs are evil. Submarine or free-dive...republican or democrat...teachers pet or drop out...fun loving whore, or frigid b*tch?
Oh, all the s**t that is MISSED in the middle!!!

Everything that society has taught us does NOTHING but WEAKEN us! Can't anyone SEE that??? So weak we feel ourselves to be that even someones point of view that does not conform with our own, must be smashed, and any light that might by chance lead us astray...must be immediately snuffed out. So weak that we fear a cigarette might kill us, a drink might bind us to the devil, a prostitute might deflower or purity, an insane freak might contaminate us somehow. There are still people in this world that believe that black people carry diseases that are contagious. Don't think that your beliefs are far from that mentality.

I was a vegetarian for ten years, and I mention this bcuz of some of the earlier posts where I caught an inkling of selfrightouseness in this area. It was a personal choice and path to explore for whatever reasons...but daily I was attacked for my beliefs (which at the time were strong and emotional)...It was bizarre how I felt people were waiting to POUNCE at every corner. On top of that I felt a need to constantly refine my direction...till I drove myself nuts over it. From vegetarian, to vegan, to raw-foodist...and the world that surrounded me appeared more vile and unhealthy then ever...the air, the water, the people. I went down that path as far as I could and things around me just got harder to deal with...bcuz I am an Empath...so...ultimately it can never be just about me. The things that are most miraculous about us as (and around us) have nothing to do with what we think. Every function from blinking to heart-beat, from breathing to digestion...happens on it's own. (even putting one foot down in front of the other)...
For some reason we put so much stock in our heads, in the conclusion of who we "think we are" and "what we SHOULD be doing", but who we think we are (in general) is a sad thing that has been force-fed, and what we think we should be doing is even further from the truth...and here we are stuck...and here we shall remain. Drugs are not the ANSWER, but unconventionally throughout time, they do/have offer/ed a glimpse outside the box.

Again I am cornered by a question with the pre-requisite of two answers.
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So you are saying they were geniuses as a result of using drugs? Or they were already geniuses who chose to use drugs? There's a difference.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh (long, exhausted sigh).

They're just genius! We are all genius! Tap into it however you want. There is however a massive structure that works against you...know this!
Everything established in this world is constructed to KEEP YOU FROM THAT GENIUS!!! KEEP YOU WEAK & WANTING! All of them are built with extreme subtlety. Some of these geniuses even helped (unknowingly) to pave the way.

Brilliance...some people wear sun glasses to cut down on the light, some people eat trash to keep themselves filtered from the energy, some people take "legitimate" drugs to try and keep themselves grounded, but we are all slipping off into the cosmos and no anchor is strong enough to hold us down. soon you will not need to take drugs to experience the most mind-bending trip you could ever imagine...i promise you that!

and this website and everyone's opinions will have never existed.

BenK what is your reason for drawing a line between poppy seeds and morning glory seeds? I'm not surprised you didn't like the DXM, when you think about the trip it took before it got to you...I can't see where it would be anywhere near pleasant.  There's a huge difference between smoking pot that's grown outside in the wonder of natural elements, and pot that's grown in a closet under artificial light with thrash music blaring 24-7. This knowledge is an important factor to anyone that's traveling the magic path of plants/chemicals.

No one around with any shrum experience? Just curious...

thanks to no_leaf_clover for the welcoming
 wink

the Olsin twins, Eminem & Sponge Bob reference was to lighten the mood, and also as a bit of slight since I am assuming (i know...) that I am out numbered by a younger mentality here. I never implied they were genius, but...why the hell not?!?  

and I can't believe I forget my most favorite drug addict of all
LEWIS CARROLL!!! (all genius aside)
BLESS HIS BEAUTIFUL SOUL!

back @ ya
333
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jilola
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« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2005, 16:10:41 »

Tell me, soulJah, who's tried to prevent you from telling your story? From doing whatever you wish?

The Titanic was an analogy for the enlightenment experience, in case you missed it. Certainly drugs will get you there but for many the drugs do get out of hand. Not because of the drugs themselves, but because they are used recklessly.

Again, as so often before, a discussion about drugs and their use is perilously close to becoming a two sided rantathon with both sides building ever higher soapboxes.

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They're just genius! We are all genius! Tap into it however you want. There is however a massive structure that works against you...know this!
Everything established in this world is constructed to KEEP YOU FROM THAT GENIUS!!! KEEP YOU WEAK & WANTING! All of them are built with extreme subtlety. Some of these geniuses even helped (unknowingly) to pave the way


Good thing you're savvy to that. Most people confuse the order of things and think drugs will create genius and give all the answers. Glad to hear you're not one.

 wink I got your joke withe Olsens, no worries. But I still had to respond to a button being pressed.

2cents & L&L
jouni
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Souljah333
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« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2005, 16:16:02 »

What difference does it make if "I" said they were genius because of taking drugs, or they were geniuses that took drugs? REALLY?!?
I honor their work. Not because it's hip or trendy, not because it's the right thing to do.  If you notice there is a total lack of female genius throughout history, but that's a different gripe. Christ...I have a very strong reason to believe that the bible itself was written by some very heavy drug user's.
My opinions mean nothing!!!  They do not sum up who I am, and they definitely don't exist to define who you are...'nough said.

Always be grateful that there is more than ONE path.
Celebrate all the difference no matter how on point you think you are!

333
 wink
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Souljah333
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« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2005, 16:43:57 »

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Certainly drugs will get you there but for many the drugs do get out of hand. Not because of the drugs themselves, but because they are used recklessly.


When aren't humans reckless???
 
The word "drug" is funny to me, most likely one of the poorest defined words in the dictionary. Take a mushroom for instance...completely harmless unto itself. Where did come from? Why is it there? It isn't bad, or evil, or powerful in anyway, shape or form. It just is. Something within our chemical make up and the mushrooms chemical make up meld. It awakens something in us. This cannot be defined, defended or dismissed.  Every single plant has some magic to it, some medicinal quality in reaction to our physical bodies. I defend all plants! I would never think to separate the good from the bad...what is that function???
We are already connected to a higher consciousness that is rightfully ours...though we are currently hanging on by a thread...there is talk of coming round full circle in regards to the 2012 shift.

What is being discussed here has nothing at all to do with drugs. It has to do soul-ly with the state of the human condition! People are really f**ked up, and what's the fun in discussing that? If we started talking about what we as humans should keep away from...I don't think the list would end. If we follow that line of thinking...the majority should avoid sex as well, anything with a sharp point, or anything that involves interaction whatsoever, bcuz humans understand so little (if anything) about cause and effect...where animals on the other hand we never cursed with the ability of contemplation.

What a tangled web we weave!
333
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