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Author Topic: Drugs  (Read 44923 times)
jilola
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« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2005, 18:14:23 »

Quote
What difference does it make if "I" said they were genius because of taking drugs, or they were geniuses that took drugs? REALLY?!?
I honor their work. Not because it's hip or trendy, not because it's the right thing to do. If you notice there is a total lack of female genius throughout history, but that's a different gripe. Christ...I have a very strong reason to believe that the bible itself was written by some very heavy drug user's.
My opinions mean nothing!!! They do not sum up who I am, and they definitely don't exist to define who you are...'nough said.


None whatsoever. And to point out that nobody's claimed you said anything to that effect is redundant.


2cents & L&L
Jouni[/quote]
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Babar
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« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2005, 18:24:30 »

My philosophy is that Drugs don't make people crazy, other people make people crazy.  Ive used many psychedelic drugs and can honestly say Its not that big of a deal.  I remember reading in high times magazine a few years ago an interview with the infamous guru Andrew Weil where he explained that you can have much more profound experiences using your own mind than you could ever have from a drug, at the time I just kinda scoffed at the idea, to me it was typical "hippie" mumbo-jumbo, but really he was right. After all people have the most primo drugs all ready built in vivo, Endorphins, serotonin, dopamine etc. IMO People give drugs way to much credit, whether it be positive or negative.
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« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2005, 18:24:30 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Souljah333
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« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2005, 19:51:34 »

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So you are saying they were geniuses as a result of using drugs? Or they were already geniuses who chose to use drugs? There's a diffference.


Let's run with the redundant thing......shall we?!?
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE OH WISE ONE?

challenge: can you respond without making it black & white???

taunt, taunt
 cheesy
333
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2005, 20:18:33 »

Regarding the original post..

Quote
Has anybody tried using drugs as a means to attain the experiense like: ie Nitrous Oxide, dmt, Ketamine etc etc?


There was one experience I read that advised against the use of LSD that I thought was interesting, regarding this.

The person reported having OBEs and thinking she was dead, panicking, and having a very bad trip. Therefore, she recommended no one ever try LSD.

I guess this just goes along with what Frank said. This girl was having spontaneous out of body experiences, but because she didn't properly understand what was happening to her, it was a bad experience for her. She was doing it as a silly social thing with friends anyway.


Ben K,

Did the morning glories give you any ill-feelings? I've read that there are two toxins within the seeds that, unless removed, cause unpleasantness in the line of stomach pains and headaches. Did you experience anything like this, or did you extract the LSA beforehand?
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Babar
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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2005, 21:09:16 »

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The person reported having OBEs and thinking she was dead, panicking, and having a very bad trip. Therefore, she recommended no one ever try LSD. "


I really hate when people are naive to the effects of psychedelic and consequently have a frightening and alienating experience then feel it is their duty to bad mouth and discourage people from using the drug in question. Just because they were mentally ill equiped for it dosen't mean everyone will be also.  

Really all I wanted to know was if there are people here who use drugs to potentiate or induce OBE's. I personally have only ever had 3 OBE's, one from when I had ingested a dissociating drug called Ketamine another one when I had a high fever, and also after inhaling laughing gas for several minutes.  I don't think that most psychedelic drugs would induce OBE's like LSD or Mushrooms, that is, unless you get very frightened and have a panic reaction which could easilly cause an OBE.  Some drugs though I feel can be used emphatically to induce or atleast potentiate an OBE, namely Ketamine and Nitrous Oxide. Terrence Mckenna also had some interesting research into alternate dimensions that could be entered through mushrooms, electron spin and temporal resonances, DMT, as described in True Hallucinations, The Archaic Revival, The Hidden Landscape.
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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2005, 21:09:16 »



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jilola
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« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2005, 21:46:35 »

Got me there SoulJah.  shocked

Yes.
A nongenius man may take drugs and not become a genius. A genius on the other hand may take them and remain a genius. There's a splethora of variances between the two. JUst know where on that line you are is all I'm saying.

I know people who've tried the first, failed  and ended in ruin. Hence my wariness when it comes to introducing chemicals to one's system.


2cents & L&L
jouni
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Ben K
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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2005, 21:49:44 »

Quote from: Souljah333
6 pages have been written by those who are NOT drug user's...(stating mostly the drastic downfalls, the poisonous attributes, and oh-so-typically winding up on the point  of illegality. (we all know these things)(we all know so damn much about everything...don't we). And may it be understood that I have a problem...not with any individuals right to live in whatever mindset they choose, nor to contemplate the things or worlds outside...but to ignorantly (sorry there is no other word) draw boxes around other people, and force that their (conditioned) view point, supported by the majority of "decent/upstanding/functional/law-abiding" citizens it the ONLY CORRECT function....but on to the free-diving issue...


Exactly. I like to think of it caveman style. What negative things could happen if a person who was never involved in any kind of society whatsoever, spoke no language, etc., took the drug. The reason i do this is exactly what you said, to shed societys constant labeling and the taboo around it. I guess you could say i have started to try to "uncondition" myself. And not just on drugs, but everything from religion, to materialism. Let me tell ya, living in the suburbs SUCKS!


Quote
BenK what is your reason for drawing a line between poppy seeds and morning glory seeds? I'm not surprised you didn't like the DXM, when you think about the trip it took before it got to you...I can't see where it would be anywhere near pleasant.  There's a huge difference between smoking pot that's grown outside in the wonder of natural elements, and pot that's grown in a closet under artificial light with thrash music blaring 24-7. This knowledge is an important factor to anyone that's traveling the magic path of plants/chemicals.


DXM was indeed pleasent, i had a great time. And im sure im going to be doing it again. I just have to seriously evaluate what it did and how i can do it different next time. The one thing i didnt like is the memory-loss factor. I would sit in the dark with my friends for hours at a time, and it felt like it went by in a minute. On the flipside, we listened to "Cant Ya Hear Me Knockin" and it seemed to last an hour, which was great.

Anyway, It seems to me that opiates really just give you a body high for a couple hours, and there is really not "trip" per say. My main reason I like doing psyc. is that it opens up my "subconscious". Sitting around feeling like youre floating for an hour just doesnt sound fun.

If i am wrong however, please correct me  evil
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Babar
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« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2005, 22:22:52 »

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"Anyway, It seems to me that opiates really just give you a body high for a couple hours, and there is really not "trip" per say. My main reason I like doing psyc. is that it opens up my "subconscious". Sitting around feeling like you're floating for an hour just doesn't sound fun"


Opiates are usually only addictive to people suffering from depression, in non-depressed people it usually doesn't have much "psychological" habituation occur.  It is more of an emotional drug which is stimulating to a persons Limbic system which in turn causes Euphoria and is generally a temporary cure for depression.

 As for it being psychedelic or mind expanding depends upon what your definition of those are.  It doesn't create much of a disturbance in your senses while your fully awake, though if you take an adequate dose it does cause you to become very drowsy and fall into a semi-conscious stupor that users call "going on the nod".  In this state one might be able to induce an OBE with greater ease, its an incredibly lucid and dreamy consciousness and for the most part the person is fully aware, Often while on the nod you feel very realistic sensations of flying and free falling. Since it causes elation and euphoria there is usually only positive feedback regarding nodding, even though it is quite surreal and fantastic.  To get to that level you'd usually have to take fair dose of a pretty strong opiate, like Heroin, oxycodone, or Morphine, that is unless you are overly sensitive in which case codeine may be sufficient.
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Frank
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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2005, 22:23:13 »

NLC:

Yep, that's a typical example, unfortunately.

Someone suddenly finds themselves “out of body” and they totally freak. Now, this happens naturally during sleep, for example, where someone may become lucid in a dream, they freak and zap back to physical. Whereupon they sit up in bed, breath a sigh of relief thinking, phew, it was all “just a dream”.

The problem with the drug-fuelled experience is there is no stopping it! They end up immersed within Focus 2 of consciousness with all their thoughts (usually fearful) coming to life all around them… and there’s no zapping back to physical as an escape.

The core problem is they don’t realise where they are in consciousness. If they knew they were actually within their own mind then they would know how to control it… simply stop thinking! And it would all just dissipate.

But because people do not realise where in consciousness they are, the phenomenon of the “bad trip” has been brought into being. There is no such “thing” as a bad-trip, per se. You are just within Focus 2 of consciousness. So all your thoughts and feelings come to life all around you. If you are in a bad mood, then you are going to be immersed in the objective representations of that bad mood. Chances are that will make you feel worse, and so you are going to find yourself in worse circumstances. Which makes you feel worse, and so you are going to find yourself in progressively worsening circumstances. Hence the term “bad trip” was born. However, the whole experience is entirely generated by the individual, and all they need do to stop it is to simply stop thinking, or think of something happy, and so it will become.

I've never done any of these drugs, but some are quite powerful substances and I can understand why a government would make them illegal. But I simply cannot agree that that is the right course. I just want to make clear, here, that I am speaking purely as a member not as a moderator, as there may be possible legal technicalities else; and you can't be too careful these days, with the sheer hysteria that abounds from all the scaremongering in the mainstream media.

But making these substances illegal, simply prevents people from experimenting safely. There should be reliable, unbiased official information that educates people as to the effects of, for example LSD.

Otherwise, you engender the very situations that other people use to point the finger saying all these substances are dangerous. So by making them illegal and punishable by punitive prison terms, you prevent people from getting proper information, which causes all these horror stories to arise, and so they use the details of these horror stories to justify their continued illegality.

It's just a continuous, highly self-defeating vicious circle.

They should be decriminalised forthwith, and dispensed from licensed outlets in known concentrations just like alcohol. In my personal view, if people want to eat mushrooms, or smoke whacky baccy, or take LSD, or whatever, it’s their body and their business. I choose not to, but that’s my choice. People should not be forced to take for example, LSD any more than they should be forced not to.

Anything can be dangerous if it’s uncontrolled. You can’t just get in a car and drive it any old how. There are strict rules that must be observed. Cars have killed far more people than LSD ever will. But people still drive and cars are more popular than ever.

Drugs should not be just available willy nilly, but they should not be banned either. They should be able to be purchased through properly licensed outlets in strictly controlled concentrations. As I say, just like alcohol and like, for example, in Amsterdam where you have the coffee shops that sell a variety of different types of weed and what they call “space cakes” which I think are mushroom cakes.

Yours,
Frank
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patapouf
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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2005, 22:36:25 »

I don't know if it is possible but I have heard that one of the consequences of LSD is that you may have one of those hallucinations after a long period of times! Even 2 years after you took some! Is it true? (I've never took that stuff so I'm not worrying too much).  

Quote from: Frank

Drugs should not be just available willy nilly, but they should not be banned either. They should be able to be purchased through properly licensed outlets in strictly controlled concentrations.


In just a few countries we may see drugs (ex: heroin) not being sanctioned by the law (I think it's Holland). Instead of jailing the drug addicts, they try to help them and as surprising as it me be, the percentage of people taking drugs did not rise at all, it's even going down!

Take care,
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Ben K
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« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2005, 23:05:57 »

Quote from: patapouf
I don't know if it is possible but I have heard that one of the consequences of LSD is that you may have one of those hallucinations after a long period of times! Even 2 years after you took some! Is it true? (I've never took that stuff so I'm not worrying too much).  

Quote from: Frank

Drugs should not be just available willy nilly, but they should not be banned either. They should be able to be purchased through properly licensed outlets in strictly controlled concentrations.


In just a few countries we may see drugs (ex: heroin) not being sanctioned by the law (I think it's Holland). Instead of jailing the drug addicts, they try to help them and as surprising as it me be, the percentage of people taking drugs did not rise at all, it's even going down!

Take care,


FLASHBACKS:

Quoted without permission from 'Licit and Illicit Drugs,' written by Edward M. Brecher and the editors of Consumer Reports. ISBN: 0-316-15340-0

A simple explanation of LSD flashbacks, and of their changed character after 1967, is available. According to this theory, almost everybody suffers flashbacks with or without LSD. Any intense emotional experience--the death of a loved one, the moment of discovery that one is in love, the moment of an automobile smashup or of a narrow escape from a smashup--may subsequently and unexpectedly return vividly to consciousness weeks or months later. Since the LSD trip is often an intense emotional experience, it is hardly surprising that it may similarly "flash back."

"Post-traumatic stress disorder has been commonly associated with war veterans, but it also affects victims of disasters and violence... Experts estimate that 1% of the population suffers from the disorder."
---LA Times, Feb 18 1992, p A3, "Journey For Better Life Hell For Some Women."

Can smoking marijuana induce a flashback?
Also are you more likely to suffer flashbacks from having a bad trip?

Apparently yes and yes. The following is reproduced without permission from Lester Grinspoon and James B. Bakalar, "Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered," Basic Books, Inc. New York, 1979. pp. 159-163. I highly recommend this book, and if you find it please buy me one too.

I typed this in a while ago and didn't type in the references at the time (slap!). If you want them i'll see what i can do. Typos are mine.

... Studies of flashbacks are hard to evaluate because the term has been used so loosely and variably. On the broadest definition, it means the transitory recurrence of emotions and perceptions originally experienced while under the influence of a psychedelic drug. It can last seconds or hours; it can mimic any of the myriad aspects of a trip; and it can be blissful, interesting, annoying, or frightening. Most flashbacks are episodes of visual distortion, time distortion, physical symptoms, loss of ego boundaries, or relived intense emotion lasting a few seconds to a few minutes. Ordinarily they are only slightly disturbing, especially since the drug user usually recognizes them for what they are; they may even be regarded lightheartedly as "free trips." Occasionally they last longer, and in a small minority of cases they turn into repeated frightening images or thoughts. They usually decrease quickly in number and intensity with time, and rarely occur more than a few months after the original trip.

A typical minor and pleasant flashback is the following:

... Frequently afterward there is a momentary "opening" ("flash" would be too spastic a word) when for maybe a couple of seconds an area one is looking at casually, and indeed unthinkingly, suddenly takes on the intense vividness, composition, and significance of things seen while in the psychedelic condition. This "scene" is nearly always a small field of vision -- sometimes a patch of grass, a spray of twigs, even a piece of newspaper in the street or the remains of a meal on a plate.
(Cohen 1970[1965], pp. 114-115)

Here are two more troublesome examples:

For about a week I couldn't walk through the lobby of A-entry at the dorm without getting really scared, because of the goblin I saw there when I was tripping.
(Pope 1971, p. 93)

A man in his late twenties came to the admitting office in a state of panic. Althought he had not taken any drug in approximately 2 moths he was beginning to re-experience some of the illusory phenomena, perceptual distortions, and the feeling of union with the things areound him that had previously occurred only under the influence of LSD. In addition, his wife had told him that he was beginning to "talk crazy," and he had become frightened ... He was concerned lest LSD have some permanent effect on him. He wished reassurance so that he could take it again. His symptoms have subsided but tend to reappear in anxiety-provoking situations.
(Frosch et al. 1965, p. 1237)

Flashbacks are most likely to occur under emotional stress or at a time of altered ego functioning; they are often induced by conditions like fatigue, drunkenness, marihuana intoxication, and even meditative states. Falling asleep is one of those times of consciousness change and diminished ego control; an increase in the hypnagogic imagery common at the edge of sleep often follows psychedelic drug use and can be regarded as a kind of flashback. Dreams too may take on the vividness, intensity, and perceptual peculiarities of drug trips; this spontaneous recurrence of psychedelic experience in sleep (often very pleasant) has been called the high dream (Tart 1972). Marihuana smoking is probably the most common single source of flashbacks. Many people become more sensitive to the psychedelic qualities of marihuana after using more powerful drugs, and some have flashbacks only when smoking marihuana (Weil 1970). In one study frequency of marihuana use was found to be the only factor related to drugs that was correlated with number of psychedelic flashbacks (Stanton et al. 1976).

How common flashbacks are said to be depeds on how they are defined. By the broad definition we have been using, they occur very often; probably a quarter or more of all psychedelic drug users have experienced them. A questionanaire survey of 2,256 soldiers (Stanton and Bardoni 1972), leaving the definition to the respondents, revealed that 23 percent of the men who used LSD had flashbacks. In a 1972 survey of 235 LSD users, Murray P. Naditch and Sheridan Fenwick found that 28 percent had flashbacks. Eleven percent of this group (seven men in all) called them very frightening, 32 percent called them somewhat frightening, 36 percent called them pleasant, and 21 percent called them very pleasant. Sixty-four percent said that their flashbacks did not disrupt their lives in any way; 16 percent (4 percent of the whole LSD-using group) had sought psychiatric help for them (Naditch and Fenwick 1977). In a study of 247 subjects who had taken LSD in psychotherapy, William H. McGlothlin and David O. Arnold found 36 cases of flashbacks, only one of which was seriously disturbing (McGlothlin and Arnold 1971). McGlothlin, defining flashbacks narrowly for clinical purposes as "repeated intrusions of frightening images in spite of volitional efforts to avoid them" (McGlothlin 1974b, p. 291), estimates that 5 percent of habitual psychedelic users have experienced them.

There are few studies on the question of who is most susceptible. In 1974, R. E. Matefy and R. Krall compared psychedelic drug users who had flashbacks with those who did not, and found no significant differences in their biographies or on personality tests. The main causes of flashbacks were stress and anxiety. About 35 percent found them more or less pleasant, and the same proportion thought they could control them. Most accepted them as an inevitable part of their lives as members of the psychedelic fraternity and did not want help from psychiatry (Matefy and Krall 1974). Naditch and Fenwick found that the number of flashbacks, both pleasant and unpleasant, was highly correlated with the number and intensity of bad trips and the use of psychedelic drugs as self-prescribed psychotherapy. Those who enjoyed flashbacks and those who were frightened by them did not differ significantly on tests of ego functioning.

A case seen in an outpatient setting in the late sixties illustrates the kind of set and setting that may create flashback problems. PQ was a thirty-six-year-old single man who entered therapy because of depression and anxiety. He was a heavy drinker who was passive, slovenly, and spent most of his time in bed. Just before taking to alcohol and his bed he had failed in an attempt to parlay a gift from his wealthy father into a fortune on the stock market. Despite a remarkable incapacity for insight, during a year in psychotherapy he managed to give up alcohol and start a promising business. But his anxiety continued, and in order to allay it he had to keep himself very busy wheeling and dealing. Imitating his father, a successful self-made man who had married a woman twenty years younger than himself, PQ dated only women under the age of nineteen. Being attractive to young women was so imporant to him that much of his time was spent in the company of teenagers. During business hours he would wear a conservative three-piece suit and drive a new sedan, but when he was with his young friends he would wear a leather jacket and drive a motorcycle. Anxiety and fears of inadequacy dominated both of these lives. Several months after therapy began, during a weekend in a small resort town, his young friends decided to take LSD, and he felt obliged to dissemble his fears and join them; it was his first and only trip. He felt a panic he had never known before; he thought that he was losing his mind and going "out of control." His friends were so concerned that they took him to a small hospital, where he was given chlorpromazine and after six hours released in their care. The next day he had a flashback that lasted one or two hours and was almost as frightening as the original experience. Flashbacks continued for six months, their frequency, duration, and severity eventually diminishing to the point where it was difficult for him to determine whether they were related to the LSD trip or merely an intensification of his usual anxiety. In fact, the patient described the flashbacks as being like very much enhanced anxiety episodes. Even several years after this experience, when he became very anxious, he was reminded of the trip and these flashbacks. He denied that these experiences had any perceptual or cognitive aspect; both during the LSD trip and later, the only symptom was panic. There is no question that the nature of his trip was influenced by the unfortunate set and setting. It is a matter of speculation what part his underlying chronic anxiety played in the development and form of the flashback phenomena.

Several explanations for flashbacks have been proposed. One is that the drug has lowered the threshold for imagery and fantasy and made them less subject to voluntary control; in another version of this explanation, flashbacks are caused by a heightened attention to certain aspects of immediate sensory experience suggested by drug trips and reinforced by the community of drug users. Something more seems to be needed to account for repeated fearful relivings of sequences from past drug trips, and these have been explained as similar to traumatic neuroses precipitated by fright: disturbing unconscious material has risen to consciousness during the drug trip and can be neither accepted nor repressed. For example, D. F. Saidel and R. Babineau (1976) have reported a case of recurrent flashbacks -- three years of blurring images and auditory distortions, with some anxiety and confusion -- which they regard as a neurosis founded on the patient's problems with his career and his relationship to his mother. (See also Horowitz 1969; Shick and Smith 1970; Heaton 1975.) Another explanation treats the flashback as an example of recall associated with a particular level of arousal. (Fischer 1971). In this conception the memory of an experience is best retrieved when the rate of mental data-processing is the same as it was during the original experience -- in other words, when the state of consciousness in similar. Therefore, psychedelic experiences are likely to be recalled and relived when the ego's sorting and control of sensory information is disturbed by drugs, stress, or the state of half-sleep.

-From the LSD FAQ at http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml
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Souljah333
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« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2005, 01:31:12 »

they've also started the heroin program in B.C. as well, not sure if it's helping or not (yet). as i mentioned i grew up around a lot of drugs, which is why i don't have any hang up's per say. i've tried a good deal, but i never once thought about making a career out of it. some people have a highly addictive nature...i suppose they have to control themselves in all aspects of life.
i see where there's a problem keeping things taboo/illegal. it's too bad really, bcuz i believe that it's all being used for very black op type control and manipulation projects. there's no other reason why marijuana shouldn't be legalized. it's less dangerous than alcohol, less detrimental, and leads to less aggressive behavior. people like to call it a gateway drug, but i don't agree with that speculation.

There having a free "StreamLink" weekend at coasttocoastam.com!
I urge everyone to spend the entire weekend listening to the achieved shows!!! I'm a dedicated listener of four years, and the best show yet has been Black Budgets & Money Trails (Monday. April 4th) AN ABSOLUTE MUST LISTEN!!!  

Go to c2c and check out the "past shows" link (top left)...there's a host of excellent interviews (ie. Messages from the Masters/UFO Roundtable (w/ Linda Moulton Howe, Grant Cameron, Bruce Maccabee, and Bob Wood)/
Psychic Dreamers/Astral Projection Techniques (w/ROBERT BRUCE)/
Underground & Undersea Bases & for my special friend Titanic: Myth & Fact  wink and that's only about 10% of the selection over the last few months that you can tune into. You can also download to h/d,disc & mp3.
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patapouf
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« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2005, 02:22:35 »

Thank's for the reply folks,

The only ''desintox'' that I had to do (last week) was ''caffeine''  Cheesy which is the most popular stimulant in the world! The side effects of course is not really hard compared to drugs but it can still give you a good headache! I make decaf. double espressos now.... Doesn't really taste the same but it still good!

Take care,
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2005, 02:23:19 »

Ben K -

I think you may have missed a question I had regarding morning glory in my last post. I asked,

Quote
Ben K,

Did the morning glories give you any ill-feelings? I've read that there are two toxins within the seeds that, unless removed, cause unpleasantness in the line of stomach pains and headaches. Did you experience anything like this, or did you extract the LSA beforehand?


I just thought that I would throw that back out beforehand to give you another chance to catch that, since the posts are somewhat numerous and lengthy together. It would certainly be easy to miss.


Patapouf,

Quote
I don't know if it is possible but I have heard that one of the consequences of LSD is that you may have one of those hallucinations after a long period of times! Even 2 years after you took some! Is it true? (I've never took that stuff so I'm not worrying too much).


If something like this occurred it would not be because of the drug, but because of something psychological or whatever other term is appropriate here. LSD wears off completely within a day or so, and so I don't believe it could still be causing hallucinations itself. I'm not completely certain, though.


Frank,

I suspected the 'spiral effect' of negative astral experiences and bad LSD trips shared a common cause, but are you saying that all drug-induced experiences are actually kinds of forced entries into other consciousnesses?
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Ben K
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« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2005, 03:48:04 »

Quote from: no_leaf_clover
Ben K -

I think you may have missed a question I had regarding morning glory in my last post. I asked,

Quote
Ben K,

Did the morning glories give you any ill-feelings? I've read that there are two toxins within the seeds that, unless removed, cause unpleasantness in the line of stomach pains and headaches. Did you experience anything like this, or did you extract the LSA beforehand?


I just thought that I would throw that back out beforehand to give you another chance to catch that, since the posts are somewhat numerous and lengthy together. It would certainly be easy to miss.




Ah yeah sorry mate. Heres the deal with that. If you can find a wholesale seed distributer around, you can buy like a pound or 2 of seeds for really cheap. These dont have any of the pesticides that most seed companys put on there. I have also heard there more potent Wink

if you cant find a wholesale dist., find a walgreens. They usually have untreated seeds. The most important thing about finding untreated seeds is this: the government REQUIRES them to put a warning about not ingesting, or not meant for human consumption, etc. So you can go to literally any place that sells flower seeds and find a package without a warning.

If you want some tips on preperation and ingestion just pm me, i could tell you the best ways.

Quote
I suspected the 'spiral effect' of negative astral experiences and bad LSD trips shared a common cause, but are you saying that all drug-induced experiences are actually kinds of forced entries into other consciousnesses?


Duh! You are definitely in another state of consiousness when you are a drug experiance! Thats why you do it! The thing is, i suspect that alot of the epiphanies and such that people have on drugs are just F2oC experiances that they objectively interpret as spiritual. But i guess the real question is when is a duck not a duck? Is dreaming you had an obe the same thing as having an obe? Just different levels of awareness, i would think.
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2005, 04:43:54 »

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Duh! You are definitely in another state of consiousness when you are a drug experiance!


lol, I meant like the same sort of things you can experience through phasing/etc. but I guess you're right in that it might as well be all the same. Smiley

I don't guess you got any headache or stomach ache from MG? I wasn't talking about the pesticides but two other mild toxins (Erowid's site mentions them but I don't think it specifies exactly what toxins these are) present in the seed husks themselves. One is water soluble and the other isn't supposed to be a big problem unless you really grind the seeds. I don't guess you ground them enough to get that second toxin out enough to produce pronounced effects, but those types of ill-effects were the ones I was curious about.
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Souljah333
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« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2005, 13:16:09 »

COFFEE is a weakness for me, and it's funny because minus the few bad trips i've have had from certain drugs...i've found caffeine to effect me most adversely in the astral. when i was younger i could easily drink a few pots of coffee a day. i attributed it to being Canadian  wink , but i guess i had a "problem". i've since traded in two pots for a pack (cigs)...mixing it up a little. (and YES...never start smoking!) anyway i seem to have my worst attacks if i drink coffee just before going to bed. not sure why that would be of any importance...i guess bcuz we were talking about the effect of drugs on the astral experience.

once again...
Q: no one with mushroom experience?

http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/chaptersummaries.html#Society
clinical dmt studies (fairly interesting in regards to penal gland).

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml
great site

http://www.drugwar.com/caddenexperience.shtm
MUST READ---opening the doors of perception/1st trip in the 1st person.
The Experience- Ayahuasca
&
http://www.jamesarthur.net/about.html
JAMES ARTHUR**** ADVICE FROM THE MOST EXPERIENCED
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« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2005, 13:59:07 »

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Mimosa rootbark is VERY VERY VERY strong, it WILL kick your butt through several dimensions. Psychedelic bravado is not in order with this substance. This is no toy psychedelic, this is the Real Thing. Do not assume that just because you can eat a quarter sheet of acid and cope that you can handle ayahuasca. You can't handle ayahuasca. IT handles YOU. Use her with respect, and she can show you things you cant see any other way. Use her unwisely, and she will tear you apart and teach you respect.


from http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=5694

this stuff grows everywhere, mostly the sides of highways...but i wouldn't suggest using it due to the fossil fuel residues (even though the bark is what is consumed). i've made tea with the berries before, but as a kid i was always told the rest of the tree/plant was highly poisonous. AYAHUASCA is the trip i'm wanting to take someday in my shaman fantasy/vision quest thing. not ready yet...some loose ends to straighten out first. i've been close to this experience, and i would not suggest it in anyway if you are not in a comfortable headspace with yourself. this is major therapy s**t...a lifetime of bootcamp packed in a 6 hour session.
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Babar
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« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2005, 16:52:07 »

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no one with mushroom experience?


I've had plenty mushroom experiences, on numerous different subspecies Psilocybin and aminitas varieties as well.
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« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2005, 03:23:14 »

and???

anything worth commenting on?

reading more ayahuasca/mimosa trip accounts (really like erowid experience vault and the way it's set up)...
what i find interesting is the shaman/co-pilot direction, and how many people have been cured during these sessions...from demonic possession, to depression, to terminal cancer. how immediate/direct it is, the price you have to pay for that, etc.  it's obviously becoming a trend from the wealth of info on the web...five years ago the only people that were doing this were flying off to peru and hiking into the jungle.

a lot of people that frequent this site are looking for answers to weird dreams, looking for explanations outside the box that validate and ease their experiences...whether it be sleep paralysis, or an OBE. there are a handful that are well-established in the astral, and i have no hesitation stating i am one of these. the things that are most often discussed are difficult for me to grasp, because it involves me reaching back 30 years into the past. i was about nine when the floodgates opened in full force. it's like trying to recall what kind of shoes my third grade teacher wore, what the score was on my first math test, and the name of that kid that use to sit in back of class and eat his boogers...and then try to summarize how it's relevant...now.
 
but i'm way off point...with all the information and speculation and discussion...with all the books, the practice, the weighing out, the conclusions, the filing, filtering, etc...it is possible to walk right into that world that everyone here is interested in. after all this time i see that at the end of my path...because no matter how much energy, time, passion, intellect, or raw instinctive behavior i put into it (and i've put a lifetime worth believe me)...i see very clearly how securely we are all plugged in.
yes...it's possible to get "there" by dedicating ones life to it, but you've got folks in tibet who live in remote caves and spend all their time doing nothing but, and they still would never chance to tell you they're there. (and these guys do a LOT of drugs...if that's what you want to call them.)

it's a lot like the matrix movie...the red pill or the blue. that proverbial door that separates. the movie didn't get into neo's life before the knock, before the appearance of the white rabbit. obviously he was deeply into the "idea" of the "matrix"...but as we discover, nothing could have prepared him. the movie makes it clear that no one can get there on their own. it involved him making a choice, it involved him "asking", and making his intentions clear...never mind the pills. my point is he had to go through the door BACKWARDS. there was no other way to see what he was trapped by (the reality). and this were i do believe that some plants exist as "keys". we are allowed to hang out in the lobby, discuss what's on the other side, peek through the keyholes...but the sign clearly reads "VIP's ONLY"...you've got your invitation...it's your birthright. it's where you were created, it's where we all return...and it's possible to cash in at any time (for the golden key).

neo walked back into reality with the keys in his hand, but this time as a gamer. i guess that supports the power that comes with releasing the fear of death. that movie knocked me on my butt...of course i was high at the time (but... wink ). makes me laugh bcuz i went with my folks, and some of their friends (b.boomers). i walked into a totally different world when i left the theater, and then had to listen to them drag the entire thing through the mud on the way home (bummer). i think that was the big question that came with the film...red pill or blue???
i would assume most here would like to think they would choose the red.
(oh wait............you guys don't take drugs.)

i guess that's kind of my point (also)...the pills become irrelevant after the fact. i mean...the last thing neo was thinking of doing in the matrix was smoking a big fat spliff right?!? doesn't matter what side of the door your on...it's the most f**ked up trip you'll ever take. the drugs are more like new eyeballs...JUST A TOOL...and i'm not talking about drool-all-over-yourself coma type drugs, or lets-forget-were-alive happy pills, or even i'm-so-cool-with-my-antique/genius drugs. i'm talking about the ancient blue and red pill.
 
willing to give up EVERYTHING for the TRUTH?!?

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Frank
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« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2005, 06:00:27 »

NLC:

That's a good question and not one that I can really comment on with any degree of authority, as it is way beyond my experience. I have never actually taken any of these drugs. But knowing the nature of the wider reality, when I read people's reports on mushroom and LSD "trips" I can readily see that what is happening is the drug is causing a kind-of “forced” focus of attention shift into Focus 2 of consciousness.

The big problem with that is people do not actually realise the nature of the environment and the fact that they are now sitting slap-bang within their own personal area of mind. Which means all their thoughts will come to life all around them. People tend to believe that the drug itself has caused some kind of weird "trip". When in reality, the person themselves have caused the trip. All the drug has done is to cause them to focus away from the physical into Focus 2 of consciousness instead of Focus 1.

Saying that, I have also read a number of reports that clearly show these drugs can also cause an F1/F2 overlay experience. I suppose it depends on the dosage, but I’m guessing there, as I’ve never taken them, as I say. But an overlay experience is where people perceive 2 or more areas of consciousness at the same time. So people are seeing the physical, but superimposed on their vision of that are visions they are picking up from F2 of consciousness also. Again, people tend to think it is the drug itself that has caused this. But they are causing it. The drug has simply broken down the "barrier" so to speak, that the person would normally place between the two areas of consciousness.

Someone who is schizophrenic, for example, has not erected the same “barrier” between F1 and F2 that most other people have placed. So they see these kinds of visions all the time.

Yours,
Frank
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Ben K
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« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2005, 08:24:13 »

Frank: Its extremely interesting that you say that. When i was under the unfluence of these things, other people would not percieve the same hallucinations, auditory, visual, whatever, which now that i come to think of it correpsonds directly to what you are saying. Each person is instead engaging there own images from F2.

The allure that i see from drugs is this: Experiancing life in an altered state. Now, im sure once i become able to fully phase and enter different focuses at will this allure will diminish, as i can have any experiance i want while in these states.

Another alluring aspect is the social aspect. Alot of people tend to take lsd and psylocibin socially. ALso in the 70s/80s bikers would get together in abondoned warehouses and trip on dxm. What i believe happened is they entered F3 of consciousness as opposed to lsd/mushroom of F2 or F2/F1 overlap. I know I had great fun enacting out "fantasies" with friends, and listening to music, etc etc.
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« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2005, 16:43:03 »

Ben:

Yes, that’s correct. Problem is, mystics typically call anything non-physical “the astral” and to them this “astral” is a separate place that is inhabited by all manner of “beings” often monster-type beings like devils and demons and stuff. They don’t actually see it as being their own mind.

Even when you are within Focus 3, it is still your own mind. It’s just that within your mind you have individual sections and common sections where you allow a subjective energy interaction with others who are doing the same. So it looks like a common area in consciousness, but it’s not actually a common area that has been set out. It just looks that way because of all the subjective energy interactions that take place. In reality, you are still within your own mind but you are “sharing” a part of it with others, so to speak.

Focus 3 is very much like the physical in the subjective interactions that take place. This is why people such as Bruce Moen think of Focus 3 as the Afterlife. Because you do get people, millions of people, simply living a life that is very physical-like.

In a drug experience, from what I have read, people typically experience Focus 2 of consciousness. This is the place where they go on their individual “trip”. All the visuals, hearing voices, flying around, etc. this is Focus 2.

Now, if you were to actually realise that right “next door”, in a manner of speaking, is your common area, i.e. Focus 3, then within the experience you should be able to cause a phase shift to Focus 3. If you are in a group of people doing the same thing, in theory, if you all get it right, then you should all be able to meet-up within Focus 3 and have a laugh.

Yours,
Frank
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Ben K
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« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2005, 20:08:10 »

So, hypothetically, if you were to phase shift to focus 3 while under the influence of, say, lsd, there is a possibility that instead of normal, everyday hallucinations "overlapping" you might see seperate entities?

Im sure that has happened to a number of people already accidently, but they chalk it up to "just the drugs".

Interesting  evil
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« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2005, 21:28:01 »

Ben:

Yes, I was about to say that you are not actually under the influence of the LSD. All the drug has done it to remove the "veil" that people typically place between here and there, in a manner of speaking. I say that because there is no here and there as separate places. It's all you as one continuum in consciousness. But we place these "barriers" for the purposes of our experience.

You talk about separate "entities" but in reality, they are just other people whose primary focus is Focus 3 of consciousness instead of Focus 1. People must surely have had these experiences but, as you say, they chalk it up to the drugs. Again, unfortunately, the drugs introduce people to concepts they are not able to comprehend, which does create complications in certain types of people.

One day we will realise that our consciousness extends way “beyond” the physical and people will stop seeing this phenomenon as some kind of separate place that people “travel” to. All you have to keep in mind is Focus 2 (the place mystics commonly call the Astral) is your individual area, and Focus 3 is a “common" area.

So if you are meeting people who are independent of you then that’s Focus 3. If you are dwelling within your own belief constructs then that is Focus 2. Mega complications have come about in the past because people have not realised that Focus 2 is their own individual area in consciousness.

They have gone to this place and seen their own belief constructs come to life but have failed to recognise them as such. So they have come away thinking they are right! Well, they are bound to be right because it’s their own area of mind. So whatever you think will come about, and if you are thinking of it as a separate place, unconnected with you, then you will believe the Astral is so and so.

Then you get groups of people subscribing to the same beliefs all going to the “astral” and they all have similar experiences. So then, you get the group consensus coming into play. They all believe it all the more because they all have similar experiences. But they all hold similar beliefs! Remember the golden rule: thought follows belief. Not the other way around. So, within Focus 2, their thoughts come to life, but those thoughts are based on their beliefs and all they are viewing are the objective manifestations of their group consensus beliefs within Focus 2.

So then one group of one set of beliefs have one set of experiences, and announces that their beliefs are the “truth”. But other groups with other beliefs are saying the same thing... because everyone is dwelling within their own individual area of mind. Everyone is seeing their own “truth” being manifest and everyone is thinking they are travelling to some separate place. But all they are doing is dwelling within Focus 2. And that’s how humankind has been for thousands of years!

 That’s why people like Monroe were pioneers in this field. I think people just don’t realise just how profound Monroe’s work has been in furthering the knowledge of the wider reality. His linear-focus model virtually eliminates Focus 2 of consciousness. Instead, it directs the user towards Focus 3 of consciousness. Thus neatly bypassing the highly negative sense of mystical misunderstanding that has haunted this planet for thousands of years.

Yours,
Frank
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