Drugs

[no_leaf_clover]

However, I do not find it good, that this drug can cause reoccurring flashbacks, even after it has been discontinued. That suggests it has long lasting effects. I did some further research on LSD. For your consideration:

There are a few surveys out there (ie www.textfiles.com/drugs/lsd-surv.txt , more on Google) specifically aimed at the numbers of bad trips and (negative) flashbacks that show that they're relatively uncommon. 'Flashbacks' are usually reported as being triggered by experiences reminiscent of a trip and are only negative when there is still fear or association with a bad trip and therefore not really a separate problem from bad trips (when it's a problem at all).

Either way they can of course be avoided with some basic knowledge of what you're doing (which includes taking the right doses..) and not being in a bad mood, as LSD plays off you and your emotions majorly.

I think from the above, LSD does not sound particularly bad or good. but it does seem to have very bad psychological side effects. What if you get a bad trip? Does anyone here have an experience with a bad trip?

As I say, it feeds off of your emotions, not much unlike an astral trip from what I've read here. It's an individual responsibility. The way you're trying to make it sound much worse than it is doesn't do much to help the negative connotations already surrounding LSD much, either.

Again, something that alters my consciousness, that I lose control over it, does not sound good at all. It's a bit like sleepwalking in the middle of a road amidst moving traffic or playing Russian roulette with my soul. Something not inherently good about that.

Well, if that's how you feel..

I think it is suffice to say, from all the above accounts from real people, that even a single bad trip can ruin your life, your mind and your soul.

Yes, it could. If you're afraid of it or having doubts - just don't ever do it.

1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences

This can very easily be simplified:

Being in, or put into, a bad mood, or having a latent mental disorder.

It seems like anyone can have a bad trip, and once they do, it can change them forever. I would imagine, especially for someone whose been meditating for a long time, it would throw water on all their efforts and development.

Anyone can have a bad trip in the same way anyone can be hit by a car while walking across a road. Don't take the chance if it scares you, because LSD - unlike a bad driver - is dependent on how you feel.

I don't understand how water would necessarily be thrown onto meditation efforts, etc., either. Personally I don't take reality so seriously, or cling to any of my beliefs so strictly, that a single experience would so throw into question any of my experiences more than my own questioning already has. I don't know the absolute nature of reality nor particularly care to know at this point - because not only is it not relevant but for me it is also a headache and may not even exist. To suffice it to say that anything of what we experience now is not as real as we would like to believe anyway is enough for me, and so I don't put much faith into anything but logic, as temporary as it may be, and a nature striving for love. But I digress slightly..

I think the wisest think anyone can do, is say no to these drugs

And that's why you shouldn't take them. From my point of view, the wisest thing anyone can do (say), is let people do whatever the hell they want. At any rate LSD or similar chemicals are not that bad. I could make a case for sex having potential for being much more harmful if I wanted.

[data]

No Leaf Cover,

The servery you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.

You can be hit by a car, but is that going to ruin your life? Take note of the 45 year old's account, he only took one shot LSD once at the age of 16, and has been suffering from flashbacks of his nightmarish experience since. I think that is very damaging, far more than a car accident.

I read on the site that archives all these bad trips, of people who have been taking LSD more than 30 times, and then suddenly had a bad experience, and it has changed their life completely around.

I can see why a bad trip can have this effect over you. If you consider for more than 12 hours you are experiencing your worst nightmares. Suppose, you were afraid of snakes, and while tripping, you came across a piece of rope on the floor, that looked like a snake due to the lighting. Suddenly, your mind recalls the association of snakes and your attitude of fear towards them, and as you have so little control over your subconscious process, the snake comes to life and slithers across the floor. You attempt to run away from the snake, and it follows you. You run around your house for ours, you scream, yell, moan. The snake multiplies into more snakes, suddenly the entire room is full of snakes. You scream for your life. You just want to get the hell out. Suddenly, the worst of your fears come true, the snakes start to jump at you, you fall on the ground, and snakes start to eat away at your body alive and enter your throat, you are gasping and choking, you can no longer scream, slowly you see your body erode away.

Now, if you had to experience the above for 12 hours, it does not matter if you know it was a trip or not, all the feelings and memories are real, and they will remain with you for the rest of your life. No wonder why bad experiences ruin peoples lives. Why does anyone want to subject themselves to something like that?

As I outlined before, the factors are uncontrollable. You could easily evoke a suppressed memory through any kind of association. As you don't have any control over your mind. Literally, anything can happen.

At the end of the day, even after reading experiences of people whose lives have been ruined from drugs,  you still think drugs are okay, then I can only say best of luck. I've heard many say "it won't happen to me" but it sometimes does.

Otherwise, I think it is quite clear, drugs are bad for you Yes, even legal medicinal drugs as runlola points out. I know many people who are on medical drugs, who experience all kinds of side effects and are fed up of them. I prefer going the natural way myself.

[Ben K]

Again, your missing the point lol. Anything you put into your body is "bad" for you. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE MODERATION.

MODERATION

And yes, a bad trip can be bad, but its just that, a trip. If you let something that happened to you while on a conscious-alterting substance effect you to the point where it is a week after the incident and you are still shaking in fear, you have much worse problems than drugs.

And, once again, a person with positive thoughts, who is healthy, and has no hidden psychological "disorders" will not have a bad trip. It just further reinforces the fact that WE CREATE OUR REALITY! If you go into the trip thinking about demons, guess whats going to happen.

So data: if you feel a bad trip can ruin your life, IT WILL!

1. Dormant psychological and emotional issues
2. External events during the trip
3. Any anxieties and worries that may arise just before or during the trip
4. Recent anxieties and experiences

If you have never done a psychadelic, i would really refrain from this conversation.

The only real uncontrolable risk i see there is 1.3 and 4 are the same, since when is "just before or during the trip" not recent, lol.

You can control external events to a huge extent. Its called staying home, lol. If you mean things like you jumping off the roof, or stabbing someone on accident, these risks are there during everday life as well. And like in life, anxiety can only control you as long as you let it.

[no_leaf_clover]

The servery you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.

Not off hand. Unfortunately it's probably the best survey either one of us have to go off of, if you want to use any such data at all. It's much more professional and has a much wider sample than the far-from-usual stories you chose to share with us. Hell, you even made up an especially bad story for us to read!

You can be hit by a car, but is that going to ruin your life?

lol. There's a much higher chance of it ruining your life than a bad LSD trip would ever have.

And dude, you're having some extreme problems fairly assessing information if you think a bad LSD trip could be far worse than a car accident could be. You can browse photographs (from www.rotten.com among others) of people that've been in automobile accidents with their brains scattered all over the road from a missing chunk of skull over their forehead. That's pretty life-changing right there as far as I'm concerned.

I read on the site that archives all these bad trips, of people who have been taking LSD more than 30 times, and then suddenly had a bad experience, and it has changed their life completely around.

And again, that's a reason as to why you should never do it.

- - Insert gruesome fairy tale here - -

I can see why a bad trip can have this effect over you. If you consider for more than 12 hours you are experiencing your worst nightmares. Suppose, you were afraid of snakes, and while tripping, you came across a piece of rope on the floor, that looked like a snake due to the lighting. Suddenly, your mind recalls the association of snakes and your attitude of fear towards them, and as you have so little control over your subconscious process, the snake comes to life and slithers across the floor. You attempt to run away from the snake, and it follows you. You run around your house for ours, you scream, yell, moan. The snake multiplies into more snakes, suddenly the entire room is full of snakes. You scream for your life. You just want to get the hell out. Suddenly, the worst of your fears come true, the snakes start to jump at you, you fall on the ground, and snakes start to eat away at your body alive and enter your throat, you are gasping and choking, you can no longer scream, slowly you see your body erode away.

If you imagine that happening, then guess what: that's likely exactly what's going to happen! I can see exactly why you are so dead set on making all drugs out to be the absolute devil when you have such images on your mind.

Btw, LSD trips are not usually 12 hours long, though I can see why you would of course use that figure in your fictitious story.

Anyway, nice attempt at scaring me, I guess, but unfortunately I don't go for the whole fear thing. It rather annoys me greatly, seeing as how so many people are scared into not thinking straight in the face of concepts like Hell or events like 9/11 (or that all drugs are bad in this case).

Elementary psychology/sociology, and I'm sure you pulled that out of your behind for that very reason. I'm not really even amused by the fairy tale itself, but just that you tried to pull that one on me. I find it extremely manipulative and disrespectful.

As I outlined before, the factors are uncontrollable.

This isn't true. Only latent mental disorders are uncontrollable. Bad trips are not random and are not like a bad lottery. They result from bad moods. To solve this extremely challenging obstacle (...), simply don't take LSD when you're in a bad mood!

Otherwise, I think it is quite clear, drugs are bad for you Yes, even legal medicinal drugs as runlola points out. I know many people who are on medical drugs, who experience all kinds of side effects and are fed up of them. I prefer going the natural way myself.

Then have at it! I suppose you also eat only the safest, unadultered fruits and vegetables and refrain from any US beef, pork, chicken, unpurified water, or any products containing any of those as ingredients because otherwise you are constantly consuming unnatural and harmful chemicals every single day. In today's world that's hardly avoidable and yet the practical common consequences seem very minute and yet comparable to the practical common consequences of LSD usage. There are of course unusual cases, but yours are hardly the norm or else the drug obviously would not be as immensely popular as it is.

You have to admit, it's pretty obvious how little damage LSD actually does when an anti-drug zealot such as yourself resorts to submitting a morbid fantasy and saying 'this could happen to you!'.

The only real uncontrolable risk i see there is 1.3 and 4 are the same, since when is "just before or during the trip" not recent, lol.

I don't think data is out for an accurate assessment, Ben K. He's simply trying to push his points regardless.

[Ben K]

He tends to do that

Its ok though. To each his own I say.

[data]

Well, I am realize I am debating with drug users here, so I can understand why you would viciously defend your position. I just wanted to clarify for something, the drugs you are defending are illegal. If you are caught in possesion of them, you could get 7 years in jail. You are commiting a crime everytime you possess drugs.

So someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.

Now, the case for why these drugs are bad for you, is clear enough. This is not some conspiracy to deny you drugs, and if you think so, it's probably the effects of the drugs

[Ben K]

So someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.

The same people who passed the patriot act? The same people that invaded not one, but two countries in a matter of 3 years? Sorry Im not too big on those people right now. I would rather my life be run by me, not some suits on capitol hill.

I would suggest, once again, that you go out there and do your own research. Do you seriously think drugs are illegal because the U.S. government thinks they are dangerous? Why do you think they care what you put into your body. Go down to your local pharmacy. all those drugs in that store are more dangerous than anything you can get out of the ground. Alcohol, for instance is 20x worse for you(mentally and physically) than marijuana. Why is alcohol legal? You said yourself that your father was an alcoholic. Where was your government then? Another example, morning glory seeds. Here in the U.S you can go to your local wal-mart, pick up 5 packs of morning glory seeds, eat them, and it has basically the same EXACT effect as LSD. So why are seeds legal? There are countless more examples, but i can assure you, no governments care about you. You are a number.

 If you really want to get into a debate on the dangers of drug using and why they are illegal, read up a bit and maybe get some experiance before coming in here and blabbing what you read in some book or saw on T.V.

[data]

No Leaf Cover,

You are being paranoid(effects of drugs?, j/k) I am not trying to scare you, and I am not an anti drug zealot. I am simply someone who doesn't support drugs. That is just my opinion on it, and it also happens to be the professional opinion as well.

The hypothetical was simply to outline to you how a bad trip can easily be precipitated, depending on associations. Most of us are afraid of snakes, and if during a trip, the subconscious mind creates a snake, we may feel fear, and just that trigger alone, could turn an otherwise positive experience into a negative one.

As I said such factors like these are uncontrollable, and if you read all the accounts I quoted above, you will see what I am saying is indeed true. The problem it is very random. You have little to no conscious control in a trip. Anything can happen, and if a particularly bad trip happens and endures for hours, that trauma will remain with you for a long time. D

Finally, yes I do eat fruit and vegetable and drink water, and I am completely vegetarian, because I respect the sanctity of life. Don't try and tell me this is a bad thing. This is all oxygenated food and is nourished by the sun. I believe water has life force, because when I actually drink water, I feel like I have been rejuvenated. I feel as if my entire body has come alive. I am very proud of being natural, thank you very much.

And I am very conscious of what I put in me, and respect my mind and body.


Ben K, they're illegal in most countries, enough said.

[no_leaf_clover]

Well, I am realize I am debating with drug users here, so I can understand why you would viciously defend your position.

I've never done any illegal substances. That includes LSD.

But, I don't give two craps for the law except to avoid being arrested. I really don't recall ever giving them permission to govern me anyway, but I suppose that's the corruption of society.

You are being paranoid(effects of drugs?, j/k) I am not trying to scare you, and I am not an anti drug zealot. I am simply someone who doesn't support drugs. That is just my opinion on it, and it also happens to be the professional opinion as well.

That's all fine if you don't like the effects of certain drugs on your body and don't want to do them, of course. You were, however, unproportionately representing the potential of negative experiences from LSD. This is no doubt because of your strong personal opinion, which you're of course entitled to, but it doesn't make for a fair assessment or argument.

I don't do these things either, but I don't have any urges to push my personal views on others. Opinions are just that - opinions.

Finally, yes I do eat fruit and vegetable and drink water, and I am completely vegetarian, because I respect the sanctity of life. Don't try and tell me this is a bad thing. This is all oxygenated food and is nourished by the sun. I believe water has life force, because when I actually drink water, I feel like I have been rejuvenated. I feel as if my entire body has come alive. I am very proud of being natural, thank you very much.

That's very good! Now all you have to do is filter the air that you breathe and find a way to avoid all the radiation leaking from various devices all over the country. My point is that we can cut down on the harmful things that our bodies endure to keep them in good shape, but minor wear and tear is a part of life, especially in today's world. It's something we face every day.

Runlola,

uh, yeah, I do. First, unless you tried all of these drugs you shouldn't talk about it because..you really don't know what you are talking about. I am not allowed to glorify drugs according to Nay, so I can't go into why it might be a good thing. It's not so bad to try, it's when you become a user that can never stop. Even a moderate user that can never stop. If you don't think you can walk away from it, don't try it. Don't even try smoking.

My comment was directed towards data. LSD, among other hallucinogenic drugs, is not addictive. If its use cannot be stopped, it's simply because the user is unwilling to stop. Stopping regular use of LSD does not cause any sort of withdrawal problems.

[Ben K]

As I said such factors like these are uncontrollable, and if you read all the accounts I quoted above, you will see what I am saying is indeed true. The problem it is very random. You have little to no conscious control in a trip. Anything can happen, and if a particularly bad trip happens and endures for hours, that trauma will remain with you for a long time. D

Utter bs. If you have ever tripped on any drug you would know this. You always have control. There is a difference between Control and the Illusion Of Control. Iam sorry, but really, if you arent a dumbass you should be fine.

Ben K, they're illegal in most countries, enough said.

What does that "say"? You didnt answer any of my questions. Truth is, you look at countries like Denmark and you see what society would be like if uptight a-holes didnt try to shove there views down anyones mouths.

Does any of your opinion have any basis in experiance? I mean no offense, but it seems you come here and, instead of questioning your own beliefs, try to fit them into this little frame of yogaism. The truth is theres alot more out there. A person doesnt need to read eastern philosophy to be "enlightened". Its a very easy process if you just go with it.

With regards to snakes, when you are on a trip, it just doesnt work that way. First of all, not everyone even hallucinates. Second of all, you cant consciously "trigger" any hallucination just like you cant trigger an obe. It just happens. And usually, unless you are uptight going INTO the trip, the visuals will be much more fun(walls melting, things bending, etc.) Why would you even want to think of snakes? Your mind is in such an altered state that if you havent been there its hard to talk about. Sort of like when you AP, your fears materialize. You can just laugh at them. Fear shouldnt be a factor in anything, especially something thats meant to be "fun" like APing, tripping, etc.

But like i said, most people with half a brain would trip fine, and again, i dont think its fair for someone whos never even been in one of these states to argue over there use.

[Babar]

ah... but once you use LSD it stays forever in your spinal fluid.

Thats a myth, same with it damaging chromosones.

[no_leaf_clover]

...Similarly, myths regarding the retention of LSD in the brain stem and spinal fluid are completely false as well.

http://www.streetdrugtruth.com/drugs/lsd.php4

I've heard the exact same thing from friends, though. I guess it's just a popular myth. :/

[no_leaf_clover]

Even if LSD did find its way into your spinal fluid (which it does not) it would simply be flushed away. NASA cannot test you for lifetime LSD use by taking a spinal tap, so even if you have at some point used LSD, you may still be able to get a job as an astronaut if you are properly qualified (yet another myth hopefully dispelled).

It's on that same link.

http://www.streetdrugtruth.com/drugs/lsd.php4


LSD is expensive to test for, and drug tests don't usually cover LSD probably for that very reason.

[Souljah333]

i was thinking about posting something along these line, and figured i'd add it in on the end of this post...since all this has my panties in a "slight" twist. where to start?!?
 

when in fact its the same nonsense as telling me not to use a car, because we have legs.

that made me "actually" LOL!!! and it's too true. i guess that would place BenK , no_leaf_clover,and I on the same team (sad there has to be sides...always).

Well prolonged usage of drugs is not good for the mind and health, as they create dependencies, and further harm normal functions. Many of the recreational drugs are potentially dangerous even in short use. Many also have what is called a "crash" phase, that is after temporary beneficial effects, there are rather unpleasant effects. So there is something inherently not good about drugs.

...i'm not going to bother arguing that point of view. the general population should NOT take drugs, bcuz they're too messed up, basically too "IRRESPONSIBLE", and in need of escapes. we've all heard the saying that "guns don't kill people...people do". well, DRUGS DON'T CREATE DEPENDENCY...PEOPLE DO.

 I REALLY don't want to push buttons, but some of you guys make it so inviting...i can't help myself.  

drugs will never (hardly ever at any rate) yield any usable results. Just like free diving to the Titanic won't result in you actually getting there.

...tell that to Vincent Van Gogh, Edgar Allen Poe, Alister Crowley, Da Vinci, Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman,  Degas, Toulouse-Lautrec, Gauguin, Picasso, Andrew Jackson,Teddy Roosevelt, Ernest Hemingway, Jack London (not to mention the more current artists), and almost every GREAT mind in history!!! (of course very few people a have a true appreciation for sheer genius these days, but i'll add that the Olsin Twins, Eminem, and Sponge Bob Square Pants...all definite drug users!) P.S. submarine or freediving? aren't we forgetting the simple and efficient astral travel?!? This duality must end guys...if we're ever going to get out of the box.

it is probably impossible to create the chemicals that LSD creates in your brain on your own.

WE ARE ALL CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS. and yes...you ABSOLUTELY have everything within you to create LSD, DMT, DXM, and every other drug known to man...right inside your very own body. amazing!

We are not really talking about DXM are we? We are talking about recreational drugs

...to some people DXM is a recreational drug, as is silver spray paint, rubber cement, and glade air freshner. lets not split hairs.

Blood pressure
Memory loss
Aggression and violence
Panic
Psychosis
Reduced cognition(as if it wasn't low enough already)
Confusion
Depression
Insomnia
Addiction
Severe anxiety/paranoia
Higher body temperature
Damage to brain cells and other parts of the brain and body

those are the same symptoms as everyday stress.

The "problem" with drugs is they give people experiences they are not psychologically equipped to handle

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!

The survey you mentioned is not a proper survey. Do you know of a more professional one with a wider sample.

you cannot trust ANY survey...there is always a directive.

So someone in authority, that in turn depends on an assessment of the drugs by scientific bodies, has good reason to believe these drugs should be illegal.

you wouldn't believe me if i told who pushes the MOST/WORST/MOST ADDICTIVE drugs in the country!?!

whew! this might garner more posts than that "how to pick up a chick" thread! i'm not opposed to much of anything (expect child molesting, and male beastiality (female bestiality=pretty much ok with). generally i'd have to say that doing anything AGAINST someone elses WILL is BAD...maybe even EVIL?!? drugs definitely don't fit in here, unless your shoving a needle in someones arm, or using that date-rape drug. yes i use drugs. YES I'VE HAD A FEW BAD TRIPS (one that changed my life forever). funny thing is it wasn't the drugs. i've staved off a good while to get my head together, bcuz drugs for me tend to work as a magnifier of my reality/headspace. if i smoke pot and get "off" effects. i know that something is wrong in my waking life...i'm not working up to par, or i'm doing something against my nature, etc. if i smoke and enjoy it...i know everything is ok. i personally wouldn't prescribe the home lab s**t, but that's just me. there will come a point in time (which i am working towards) when i will take some BIGGER steps into the unknown. the fantasy involves a shaman, a jungle, and some major plants, but i'm unqualified to say any more. there will come a time when i'll have to meet those monsters again, if i'm ever going to break free/break out the other side. i will NOT do this without someone extremely PROFESSIONAL, and that isn't some dork in a white lab coat...that's some toothless wonder with a bone through their nose, and moss loincloth.

DATA STICK WITH YOUR CONVICTIONS & NEVER, EVER, EVER, TRY IT!!!
i know that a lot of my reply seemed directed at you, and that was not my intention. i complete RESPECT your perspective (and others) and where you are right now and where you may go. i sympathize with your childhood experiences...i suffered a lot of abuse as child as well. strange thing was my parents were hippies (i smoked my first joint when i was six) and everything seemed fun and easy and creative...till they stopped being hippies and feel back into the s**t...but that's not applicable here.

BENK...HAVE YOU TRIED ABSINTHE? I'VE BEEN VERY INTERESTED IN IT OF LATE...LOT OF THINGS POINTING ME IN THAT DIRECTION. THINKING ABOUT MAKING UP A BATCH. PERSONALLY I LIKE CHARTREUSE, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAD ANY TALES ABOUT THAT OR POPPY SEED TEA (SEEMS TO BE A BIG TREND OUT WEST). ANTIQUE DRUGS?!?  

I THINK YOU AND I ARE THE ONLY ONES POSTING THAT HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH A VARIETY OF HALLUCINOGENS...WOULD LIKE TO HEAR MORE OF THE "TRIPS" AND LESS OF THE "DEBATE"
(if possible)

sincerely y'alls BIG SISTER
333

p.s. i've mentioned this in another post, but...KEEP IT NATURAL! GROW OR WILDCRAFT YOUR OWN HERBS/PLANTS (drugs)...DO NOT TRUST ANYONE!!! (THIS IS FROM EXPERIENCE...TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE). AND NEVER, EVER, EVER DO DRUGS WITH A BUNCH OF STUPID YAHOOS, OR STRANGERS! ONLY WITH PEOPLE YOU LOVE AND TRUST THAT ARE ON THE SAME WAVE LENGTH...........................YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

[paint1]

My friend who swears he never dreams, recently pulled a muscle and was prescribed ibuprofen 400mg. Now he says he has 12 to 14 very vivid and detailed dreams nightly and remembers them. By chance I had a coffee with our mutual doctor & mentioned this. He said this is a very common side effect of this muscle relaxant. This can be bought over the counter.