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Author Topic: Relative Plane  (Read 7693 times)
Tombo
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2004, 15:02:01 »

Hi there
I enjoy reading this conversation! I have some thoughts/questions myself that I want to throw in.
I have some very difficult questions for you, Frank (Of course others are welcomed to reply as well). I believe you are very true when saying that basically all we experience are constructs created by ourselves, but these leads to some very far reaching questions. I wonder what your Ideas are on the following points. (I won't blame you if you have none, I have no clue anyway wink
I hope I don't stray to far from the subject. Here we go......

If we assume, like you said, that all we experience are constructs created by ourself (and I believe you are right), then I would conclude that we are NOT any of these things. We perceive them, yes, we can probably alter them,but we are something different.  You said that we are a point of consciousness. I thinks that is very true and we can verify this every second we live. But a point does not have any expanse, it is a mathematical construct not  subsumable for our mind. So me first questions. What are we? (When I say "We" I mean the always present point of awareness that never changes weather you are angry or happy, dreaming or awake) Who is it that constructs things with the base material(to adopt your terms)? Is there any solid entity  in the core of the being you call "Frank"? What is it made of? If it is the "one"  creating things out of the base material then it can not itself be made out of this stuff, I think (confusing..)
As you probably agree we should base our understandings upon experience. So do you have any experience that points to the direction that there is actually a soul, a solid entity not created by ourselves but being ourselves? How can we interact with the base matter then?

Another point that pops in my mind: If a thought comes to me mind, were does it come from?
If we are not the constructs but the creators were, does the construction plan, the initial idea come from? Whats is the source of it? Can there be anything created out of nothing?


I found it pretty fascinating how close your ideas actually are to the ones of the early Buddhism teachings. However, this seems pretty evident to me, if people explore consciousness , I guess they eventually come  up with similar insights. I like to make this connection here cause we all basically do the same "Exploring consciousness"
I'll try to sum up my understandings of the Buddhist teachings shortly to outline this (Using my incomplete english... Smiley ) at the same time I'll also try to answer the point Major Tom (nice Name) raised on how to experience "pure consciousness"
I would also wonder what you guys think about the following.
As I understand Buddhas words, he said...

........Things constantly appear and disappear within our field of consciousness. However if one  takes a close look one will see that this things have no solid identity they are not stable and have no self. We are the ones that label different experiences and separate them. If One understands this one starts to see that all things appear in "our" consciousness but that they are not consciousness, so to speak, meaning that we are not them. there is just a constant stream of  ongoing events without a self involved. There is no "ME" inside these events and therefore they can not really cause us any suffering once we understand this. Once we  do not misunderstand experiences as being "attached" to ourselves as being "ME" we then will be completely fee, "enlighted".......

This is, of course, very difficult to experience directly (and direct experience is the only way to understand it) Many years/Lives of deep meditations are needed. Probably shifting consciousness to other realms can shortcut this?!
So to answer your question Major Tom: One way to experience pure consciousness may be, to just observe things without doing anything, stop the construction process which fills your consciousness, so to speak until your mind becomes completely calm and you becomes completely mindful of everything. one way to do this is by many years of Meditation (Vipassna). On other way may be to to  explore consciousness in the "Astral" and just observe things there. Haven't done that myself ,-) (yet)

The last question then would be, what is the purpose of it all?
One answer I came up with goes like this. We can only know something if we experience it. In order to experience something there must be a subject and a object so therefore there is I "me" and a "world". But whenever consciousness believes to be a entity there is separation and suffering. Sounds like a catch 22 to me. Maybe the universe just plays out all options available and we are currently in the "experience section"
What are your thoughts on this?
Well I hope I did not confuse you guys, it is hard to translate thoughts into another language.....

Cheers Tom
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Mister Anjilek
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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2004, 17:07:40 »

Quote from: Gandalf
I get you, so the 'bog standard model' for a 'minor system' is one populated planet per universe...
the only thing is, that seems like a lot of wasted space, ie we are one speck in this big physical universe, the huge size of it seems a bit of overkill if its just one populated planet in each..


The funny thing is, while I find it very easy to concede to the idea of overkill, in the context of the post as I understand it, there are infinite numbers of systems, hence, infinite amounts of space. Not only that, but if we create our own reality, it could be safe to assume that as "scientists" created "scientific breakthroughs", they also help to create the vast expanses of space.

The question I wonder is, if we create our own reality, and others belief constructs help to form our reality, will it ever be possible to completely experience true  pure consciousness.  Isn't even the notion of having constructs a construct?  So, in order to experience true consciousness, you would have to give up all constructs, including the belief that there is such a thing as constructs. Which would mean you would have to quit believing in constructs. This in turn would lead to not working towards giving up constructs. I hope that doesn't look like rambling, but it seems like a hopeless catch 22. We who reside primarily in your focus 1 seem to be inherently doomed to never fully experience true self.

I have only had one intentional projection so maybe I am missing some of the insight that comes from experiencing "focus 4". I am interested in hearing your replies Smiley
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Frank
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« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2004, 22:11:42 »

Tombo:

Buddhism is a construct along with many other boxed sets of beliefs. What people do is box what they believe a wider reality entails, into confines they think they can understand. Which is all very well, I’m not knocking it. But do realise in doing that a person lends themselves open to experiencing quite severe distortions in translation. One of the most common distortions is that of “a creator”.

The key, of course, is simply to view the wider reality directly, and without preconceptions of what you think that wider reality is. Which, in itself, is a heck of a challenge for most people as they read all the books and, in doing so, they gain what you might call a solid notion of “what to expect”. Unfortunately, “what to expect” is a powerful construct that forms the person’s reality and generally leads them to another equally powerful construct called, “I’m right”.

Understand, that everything physical is formed from constructs that we create as part of The Game. Now, what I am about to say may well resonate with mystical teachings in some way or other. Thing is, there is only one absolute reality at the core of all that is. The only difference, really, is how explorers such as myself describe that reality. With me, as I have said many times on this forum, I am not all that “well read” when it comes to this topic. This I now feel quite fortunate about, because it has helped me a lot.

We are a point of consciousness. But don’t get the idea we are just some point of nothing, floating in an eternal Void somewhere. The problem I am finding is, the closer I get to the core, the more difficult it becomes to describe the reality in words. Anyhow, there are two basic elements at Source, 1) The Cosmic Song and, 2) The Eternal Dance. Imagine everything of all that is, constantly entwined in a huge mass of perpetual motion. Every colour, every aspect every construct, every notion, just everything of all that is, constantly entwined in motion... and each of us forms a tiny part of that.

Within the Dance, there are an infinite number of levels, or areas, or places, and each place has its own “song”. You might perceive one area, say; it could be a mass of whirling colours and abstract shapes. This visual scene may be accompanied by a sound, like, a near infinite number of chattering monkeys, coupled with the screeching of an equally huge number of birds. There are no actual monkeys or birds, of course, I’m simply using this to try to describe what it may sound like. As you focus in on a particular area, you find what was entirely abstract before starts taking on particular definitions. As you do so, the sound of the Song changes. The closer in you go the more definition you perceive. Eventually you can go from what was originally a swirling cloud of colour, say, and you travel inwards to find an entire physical universe.      
 
All of consciousness is in a constant state of unfolding. This perpetually unfolding process ultimately creates the Eternal Dance. It is the sum of every experience that ever is/was/will. Plus, the summation of every minor Song of each and every area, forms the entire Cosmic Song. In reality, however, it is impossible to describe in words. You have to actually see it and hear it for yourself. We are currently connected to the Eternal Dance. It is something we can readily perceive if we choose to. However, what we have done is create a mental barrier between here and There, so as not to spoil The Game.

The point of us being in the place we call “here” is to experience. We create physical worlds and revel in the experience of them as part of The Game. The Game is played in accordance with strictly laid down rules that we all agree to on an ongoing basis. Between us all, underlying what we have agreed to call our “physical reality”, is a perpetual series of energy exchanges. We have all agreed to carry out these exchanges along certain lines in order to create what we call the, “world we live in”.

Without such an agreement, the whole Game would collapse. In a sense, we are all living in a house of cards where the structure is held together by our agreements formed through these energy exchanges. If we would all suddenly decide not to play the game, for example, everyone’s physical world would simply disintegrate.

Because of this, we create constructs that continually reinforce the reality of the physical realms. Being born, for example, is a construct. Of course, we cannot have people just suddenly materialising. This would spoil The Game, as it is too close to our actual reality. So we create a means of “entry” that we perceive is entirely physical based. In order to reinforce this we create all manner of other constructs such as “growing up”, “going to school”, “being taught”. Problem comes as well at the other end. We can’t have people just remaining physical forever. It would cause too many questions and spoil the illusion. So we created a construct of “physical death”. But even this is not the total solution, because we can’t have people just dying for no reason. So we created the constructs such as “disease” or “death by accident” for example, that allow people to die without raising suspicion.

As I say, our reality is formed from constructs upon which we all agree. But some constructs play a bigger part, you might say, than others. One of the most powerful constructs is “what to expect”. This construct is massively reinforced by a veritable army of officials, such as scientists, for example, whom we nominate in order to feed us with information on “what to expect”. Of course, our whole purpose of playing The Game is to experience. Doing this, we also want to explore as wide a variety of experiences as possible. So we set up circumstances where we are continually updating our ideas of “what to expect”. This enables us to explore a far wider range of experiences. This leads to yet another important construct we call “evolution”.

You could go on forever listing all the various constructs and the connections or relationships between them. There are so many I’m not sure if it is possible to create any kind of accurate map. But all a person needs is to grasp the basics and the rest follows on from there.

HTH

Yours,
Frank
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Tombo
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2004, 09:49:01 »

Frank:

Quote
Buddhism is a construct along with many other boxed sets of beliefs. What people do is box what they believe a wider reality entails, into confines they think they can understand. Which is all very well, I’m not knocking it. But do realise in doing that a person lends themselves open to experiencing quite severe distortions in translation. One of the most common distortions is that of “a creator”.


agreed

Quote
The key, of course, is simply to view the wider reality directly, and without preconceptions of what you think that wider reality is. Which, in itself, is a heck of a challenge for most people as they read all the books and, in doing so, they gain what you might call a solid notion of “what to expect”. Unfortunately, “what to expect” is a powerful construct that forms the person’s reality and generally leads them to another equally powerful construct called, “I’m right”.


agreed, but I think it goes deeper then just not reading books, I mean the whole education, the whole world we grow up, everthing our parents told us......... all this is constantly blocking our view of the direct reality unfolding. What I mean is this: when we see for example a tree. We say ahh, a tree, we see it as a certain solid object which has a certain expanse. But were does the tree really end? These are all constructs as well.

Quote
Understand, that everything physical is formed from constructs that we create as part of The Game. Now, what I am about to say may well resonate with mystical teachings in some way or other. Thing is, there is only one absolute reality at the core of all that is. The only difference, really, is how explorers such as myself describe that reality. With me, as I have said many times on this forum, I am not all that “well read” when it comes to this topic. This I now feel quite fortunate about, because it has helped me a lot.

We are a point of consciousness. But don’t get the idea we are just some point of nothing, floating in an eternal Void somewhere. The problem I am finding is, the closer I get to the core, the more difficult it becomes to describe the reality in words. Anyhow, there are two basic elements at Source, 1) The Cosmic Song and, 2) The Eternal Dance. Imagine everything of all that is, constantly entwined in a huge mass of perpetual motion. Every colour, every aspect every construct, every notion, just everything of all that is, constantly entwined in motion... and each of us forms a tiny part of that.

Within the Dance, there are an infinite number of levels, or areas, or places, and each place has its own “song”. You might perceive one area, say; it could be a mass of whirling colours and abstract shapes. This visual scene may be accompanied by a sound, like, a near infinite number of chattering monkeys, coupled with the screeching of an equally huge number of birds. There are no actual monkeys or birds, of course, I’m simply using this to try to describe what it may sound like. As you focus in on a particular area, you find what was entirely abstract before starts taking on particular definitions. As you do so, the sound of the Song changes. The closer in you go the more definition you perceive. Eventually you can go from what was originally a swirling cloud of colour, say, and you travel inwards to find an entire physical universe.      
 
All of consciousness is in a constant state of unfolding. This perpetually unfolding process ultimately creates the Eternal Dance. It is the sum of every experience that ever is/was/will. Plus, the summation of every minor Song of each and every area, forms the entire Cosmic Song. In reality, however, it is impossible to describe in words. You have to actually see it and hear it for yourself. We are currently connected to the Eternal Dance. It is something we can readily perceive if we choose to. However, what we have done is create a mental barrier between here and There, so as not to spoil The Game.


This is a very beautiful descripton, I like a lot since I'm a musican. But as you said I think I can not really inderstand what you are talking about. I guess, as long as one doesn't  experience this directly one can not understand it.

Quote
The point of us being in the place we call “here” is to experience. We create physical worlds and revel in the experience of them as part of The Game. The Game is played in accordance with strictly laid down rules that we all agree to on an ongoing basis. Between us all, underlying what we have agreed to call our “physical reality”, is a perpetual series of energy exchanges. We have all agreed to carry out these exchanges along certain lines in order to create what we call the, “world we live in


Which experience makes you say that? I mean it is quite hard for me to imagine an experience one could possibly have, that lets him know that all others have done something specific ( "Agreed on the Game")

Quote
Without such an agreement, the whole Game would collapse. In a sense, we are all living in a house of cards where the structure is held together by our agreements formed through these energy exchanges. If we would all suddenly decide not to play the game, for example, everyone’s physical world would simply disintegrate.


Have you ever considered the possiblity that the words "I" ,"world", "Game", "Others" etc are  only concepts as well?

Quote
Because of this, we create constructs that continually reinforce the reality of the physical realms. Being born, for example, is a construct. Of course, we cannot have people just suddenly materialising. This would spoil The Game, as it is too close to our actual reality. So we create a means of “entry” that we perceive is entirely physical based. In order to reinforce this we create all manner of other constructs such as “growing up”, “going to school”, “being taught”. Problem comes as well at the other end. We can’t have people just remaining physical forever. It would cause too many questions and spoil the illusion. So we created a construct of “physical death”. But even this is not the total solution, because we can’t have people just dying for no reason. So we created the constructs such as “disease” or “death by accident” for example, that allow people to die without raising suspicion.


And now you come and mess up the Game ;-P

Quote
As I say, our reality is formed from constructs upon which we all agree. But some constructs play a bigger part, you might say, than others. One of the most powerful constructs is “what to expect”. This construct is massively reinforced by a veritable army of officials, such as scientists, for example, whom we nominate in order to feed us with information on “what to expect”. Of course, our whole purpose of playing The Game is to experience. Doing this, we also want to explore as wide a variety of experiences as possible. So we set up circumstances where we are continually updating our ideas of “what to expect”. This enables us to explore a far wider range of experiences. This leads to yet another important construct we call “evolution”.

You could go on forever listing all the various constructs and the connections or relationships between them. There are so many I’m not sure if it is possible to create any kind of accurate map. But all a person needs is to grasp the basics and the rest follows on from there.


So do you consider that to be a good thing then, the game I mean? I mean, is everything like it should be? should we probably not even bother and just do what we ever did? But then why, I wonder, do you explore this things and spoil the game for yourself ?

Well, Anyways thanks for the very interessting read! I'll definitly try to experience my future Out of Body journeys with the least amount of concepts possible. I believe thats the important part, I'll try to remember.

Cheers Tom
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Selski
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2004, 12:29:29 »

Quote from: Frank


The point of us being in the place we call “here” is to experience. We create physical worlds and revel in the experience of them as part of The Game. The Game is played in accordance with strictly laid down rules that we all agree to on an ongoing basis. Between us all, underlying what we have agreed to call our “physical reality”, is a perpetual series of energy exchanges. We have all agreed to carry out these exchanges along certain lines in order to create what we call the, “world we live in”.

Without such an agreement, the whole Game would collapse. In a sense, we are all living in a house of cards where the structure is held together by our agreements formed through these energy exchanges. If we would all suddenly decide not to play the game, for example, everyone’s physical world would simply disintegrate.


If it is fair to say that we were non-physical before we decided to create the physical world to play The Game, then have the likes of "us" (those members on this Forum who have achieved/are attempting to achieve non-physical experiences) got the wrong end of the stick?  

I mean, shouldn't we, who have chosen to experience physical reality, be revelling in the physical side of it, and not spending all our spare time trying to experience non-physical reality?

Will we be the ones who are 'sent to Coventry' because we didn't follow the rules of The Game?  Will we turn out to be the culprits and those who live a total physical life (if you know what I mean) be the ones who condemn us?  

Hmmmm.  Interesting posts.

Sarah
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Tombo
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2004, 15:42:27 »

Quote
The question I wonder is, if we create our own reality, and others belief constructs help to form our reality, will it ever be possible to completely experience true  pure consciousness.  Isn't even the notion of having constructs a construct?  So, in order to experience true consciousness, you would have to give up all constructs, including the belief that there is such a thing as constructs. Which would mean you would have to quit believing in constructs. This in turn would lead to not working towards giving up constructs. I hope that doesn't look like rambling, but it seems like a hopeless catch 22. We who reside primarily in your focus 1 seem to be inherently doomed to never fully experience true self.



I think you look at it from a viewpoint that is too rational, so to speak. You must not do anything specific like believing that you need to give up constructs or something. All you need to do is stop constructing anything in your mind and just observe the "Now". I Believe pure consciousness is always present but clouded by ourselfs.
The mind can be trained to just observe the moment without wandering and then one should eventually realize true self. This needs  a lot of training but it can be done. I believe it is not necessary to shift conscious to another place to fully experience true self. Trained Projectors tell us that time and space are mere illusions, so why should we need to go anywere to truely realize ourselfs?

I'm very aware that above by itself is a believe construct as well, but one can test it by  meditation. If somebody is interested, "Mindfulness in plain english" is a excellent book on the subject

Quote
I have only had one intentional projection so maybe I am missing some of the insight that comes from experiencing "focus 4". I am interested in hearing your replies Smiley


I only had 4 intentional projections so far, so maybe I'm missing something too.........
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Mister Anjilek
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2004, 14:44:48 »

Quote from: Selski


If it is fair to say that we were non-physical before we decided to create the physical world to play The Game, then have the likes of "us" (those members on this Forum who have achieved/are attempting to achieve non-physical experiences) got the wrong end of the stick?  

I mean, shouldn't we, who have chosen to experience physical reality, be revelling in the physical side of it, and not spending all our spare time trying to experience non-physical reality?

Will we be the ones who are 'sent to Coventry' because we didn't follow the rules of The Game?  Will we turn out to be the culprits and those who live a total physical life (if you know what I mean) be the ones who condemn us?  

Hmmmm.  Interesting posts.

Sarah


Isn't it more likely that we will achieve more clarity in our physical lifes purpose by connecting to our non-physical self. It seems that we could gain insight into our "lifes lesson" if we visit our more true self on occasion.

Also, I am not attempting to experience the meta-physical realms out of some desire to play with ghosts. There is a desire and drive that I do not know where it comes from. I believe that experiencing the Astral from the perception of a physical being has something to do with my rules for the game. If it wasn't, wouldn't I have made the rules different, so that I COULDN'T experience these things?
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Tombo
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2004, 11:35:58 »

Quote
I believe that experiencing the Astral from the perception of a physical being has something to do with my rules for the game. If it wasn't, wouldn't I have made the rules different, so that I COULDN'T experience these things?


Nice point! I like that  wink
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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2004, 19:34:58 »

For a different perspective on the "problem of the kinds"

We tend to differentiate when we need to (the Eskimo's jillion different words for "snow" being the case most commonly used to illustrate the point); Yet also we try to avoid excessive differentiation when we are still very new to a concept, or have only a glancing interest in it. ( I have only a few words for "snow", and they are "what are the fares to Florida these days?" grin

So.. if I were new to the "twenty something" regions... I might tend to want to leave them blurred as one thing for the time being.... still trying to sort them out from the teens and what all.  But the more you learn about a thing, the better you know it eh?  Indeed, having a doctorate degree ought to imply something along the lines of "S/He knows his business to seven levels of differentiation, and the creatures that might populate those levels".  Here's another way to think of it:  To someone from outer Mongolia, Austin, Lubbock, Houston and Dallas are all "Texas"... but My!

ONE of the reasons, I fancy, and that is all that it is is fancy, that we incarnate on this bizzarro planet, is that it is a "Place of Kinds", that in  most regions of the multiverse, things don't seemingly self sort into kindness anymore than do objects of the physical plane glow with their own light.  That is part of the reason why this operation is such a sought ofter destination. So I fancy.

Happy Holidays all!

MH
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"We couch in our fiction those facts with which we are not yet ready to deal, while we embrace as fact those fictions from which are not yet ready to part."

'n nat's a fact..!

...which might be, I guess, why God invented beer....~

grin
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