What is the scientific theory behind F10/F12--beyond

[JAW]

Potatis, I think you are talking from a persons viewpoint that already "accepts" a different reality, whereas if a skeptic listened to those tapes, he would come up with a million ways of how they faked it. I was a hardcore skeptic as well, and had to be slowly introduced into this topic in the most round about manner possible, through a mainstream tv program which talked about the science of the effect of sounds on the human brain. One thing led me to another and whilst before I would laugh at this sort of stuff, now I am open to it. Its going to be pretty hard to get most people to jump straight into this "wierd stuff" from nothing but skepticism.

However I think good ways to get people with more open minds to "accept" might be to do things like feeling energy sensations in their body, trying meditation, yoga, or any other easy/low level excersizes, but I cant think of much that might convince people of things like the afterlife and OBE. I personally think the best bet for this stuff is reading about the well documented cases of NDE where the patients have been medically dead, but explained who was next door/what illness they had and so on. Even then youll find people coming up with explanations of how those people must have met before or something like that...

[Telos]

No, potatis, that's alright. I had never heard of either of those two people before. Thank you for sharing, it looks like some good evidence.

Science is inductive, which means it starts with pieces of evidence and builds its way up. It's like how detectives work. That also means that theories are provisional - we only really know what we know, not what we think we know. So the more evidence the better, even if it is circumstantial.

I recommend that beginners practice their curiosity in dreams. They would be surprised at what they can know and what they can do, just by playing around in dreams and having fun. I don't think acceptance and trust are needed at all, actually. Just dilligence in dream study and an open mind!

[Potatis]

Leslie Flint was tested many times, and there can be no faking what he did. Many skeptics tried to find him faking, but it was impossible for him to do so. If you read his autobiography, you will understand the truth.

JAW, you would not have written what you wrote in the last paragraph of your last post if you studied Leslie Flint and his recordings. So much information was given from the spirits about how they were communicating, the evidence is more than overwhelming. The best Leslie Flint website is here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Ewichm/deathnoe.html

It's a good start, but the recordings on the cassettes will blow your mind.

Potatis

[JAW]

Hey Potatis,
I just spent two hours looking through all the leslie flint material I could find, listening to recordings, how they tried to prove it was real, etc. However I still remain steadfast on my opinion on skepticism. I would literally have to be in the same room with this guy (if he were alive), talking to someone I know has died, ask them some impossible to know question, etc to KNOW its real. All those audio samples and "this was actually real because they gagged him" etc, seriously does nothing to assure me its for real. Im not saying its not real or it is, just that Im not sure and Id have to have, once again, solid proof, knowledge.

[Telos]

Forgive the brief anecdote:

When I was real little, my science teacher asked our class, "which object will fall to the earth faster - a billiard ball or a bowling ball?" What a stupid question! Obviously, the bowling ball is heavier, so it will fall faster.

"Wrong," my teacher said, "they both fall at the same speed and will reach the ground at the same time."

"No way," I said. I was skeptical.

After our teacher proved it through demonstration, I was still skeptical. I went home and found all sorts of things to drop - plastic cups and pitchers, basketballs and baseballs. My intuition and my convictions were just plain, flat out wrong. It hurt. If God was standing next to me, I would have asked him, "why did you make me stupid?"

To this day I still harbor the conviction that somewhere in the universe, in some time in history, or maybe even sometime in the future, heavier objects have fallen or will fall faster to the earth than lighter objects. (It is debatable whether or not I am an extreme fool or a budding genius, however I am most presently the former).


So don't be offended Potatis. I'm skeptical of even Gallileo and the centuries of science which followed.

[Potatis]

There's nothing wrong with skepticism, we all have to be. Only a fool would believe ANYTHING. Unfortunately some skeptics are so closed minded that they are too stubborn to accept anything no matter what the proof.

Good examples are in Leslie Flint's autobiography where he was gagged, they had a microphone at his throat, and had to have liquid in his mouth which was measured before and after going in his mouth, and the voices still spoke. Remember that at times he was demonstrating in halls with up to two thousand people (witnesses), and giving information constantly from deceased relatives on the other side which nobody could have possibly have known. We all know about fraudulant mediums who gather information about people in various ways, but here was information that could not have been known. Examples in the book are letters from people saying they had not used their real name etc, and the voices gave accurate information, spoke with the persons voice, accent etc. The sustantial evidence there is, has to convince, even if a skeptic cannot be given the exact detail of how it all works. Somehow a skeptic has to accept it does. In Leslie Flint's case however, the spirits do describe how it is done.

I used to think people who believed in spiritual stuff were looney, namely my mother. Then one day I thought very consciously to myself that I should not knock it, until I explored it fully. I had to open my mind. That is how I got to this forum in the first place. If I came here and read stroy after story about people's obes, then I could conclude that people were just making it all up. Instead I read about problems people were having, getting stuck when half out, or bouncing around the bedroom with not much control, and they were annoyed by it. They were looking for help. Hmm that made me open my eyes to the fact that pehaps obes are possible, because they could have made up any story about wonderful adventures. It did not prove to me that what they said was true, but there seemed to be no reason to lie. At least it opened my mind, when before it was completely closed.

If you ever read the autobiography of Leslie Flint, you will read about how he did not want to be a medium at one stage, and how it took 7 years to develop to be a good medium, and other problems he had. He was a poor man who did not seek fortune for what he could do. Why would someone not seeking fame or fortune fake seances? He only gave comfort to people.

If you are skeptical, at least be open minded enough to explore fully any information you are skeptical about. But do follow it through, and you will learn something either way. I am convinced of the truth from my explorations, rightly or wrongly. At least from this I can ACCEPT all of this, even if I personally can't explain it fully, and I feel I am moving forward rapidly, spiritually. I believe at some time it could be explained. And when it can, I also believe a device CAN be made that can talk to people who have passed on, much like a telephone. Sounds crazy? Once I would have thought so, but now, no way. Leslie Flint or a spirit, I forget who now, suggested that someday it could be done. It was done before using Flint's ectoplasm, it's a miracle it could be done at all.

Be skeptical, but keep yourself moving on. Accept things at first, then try to find the answers as you go, but move forward. Don't be a skeptic who doesn't move forward because they say "no, I don't think that's possible, I see no evidence or proof". With SOME things, for now, you just have to accept it.

Potatis.

P.S I'm sorry, I never meant for my posts in this thread to be a lecture. These are just my thoughts, and can of course be taken with a grain of salt.

[Telos]

Oh no, it's not necessary to apologize. I'm definitely going to find time to study Flint in more depth because you've piqued my interest. I enjoy reading your posts because I find them clear and lucid.

I believe I know what motivates closed-minded people of any kind. For example, I mean both groups of people who are closed to the idea of God's existence and closed to the idea of God's nonexistence. That motivation is, of course, fear.

But I believe it's a special kind of fear -> a fear of the knowable absolute truth. It appears that no human being has ever known the absolute knowable truth. If the Jesus of the Bible existed, he is perhaps our best candidate, for he could demonstrate it through acts of miracle. The Buddhas may have known it, but they didn't exactly go around performing miracles. Closed-minded people fear that they will arrive at the absolute knowable truth and it will be something horrible.  I suppose the classic example is Luke Skywalker discovering that his father is Dark Vader. How upset would we be if we found out the happiness and joy were illusions and that the universe, existence, and our souls were created by the devil? Would we come back and continue to suffer endlessly on the Wheel of Samsara?

Closed-minded people use closed-mindedness as a substitute for hope. I suppose I can't blame them, for hope is rather fragile. The best thing we can do is let them be and trust that they, like ourselves, will find peace, one way or the other.

[catmeow]

Hi all

Unfortunately these days, the art of conjury, magic, mentalism, fraud and deception is now so advanced, that a skilled pratctioner can produce irrefutable proof of just about anything.

I recently saw a "card sharp" on TV demonstrate in slow motion how he could keep shuffling a deck of cards and always keep the Ace of Spades on the bottom, top or anywhere in the middle that he wanted.  He was flawless. He then went through a series of about a dozen different casino shuffles of all types, shuffling this deck in every which way, splitting it, splicing the cards shuffling, splitting, splicing over and over.  Hen then layed out the entire deck face up and it was sorted perfectly, as if it was a brand new deck, not a single card out of place.  I played it back over and over again, and the artistry of this craftsman was unbelievable.  The fraud was undetectable.  This wasn't a trick in which he substituted a new deck right at the end, it was a demonstration of card control.

There is also a "mentallist" in the UK called Derren Brown who performs mind-reading, suggestion and ESP-type illusions of all types which are pretty hard to distinguish from the real thing.

Today we cannot trust any photographs or video evidence, since it is now a trivial matter to fake these easily using video software on any PC.

So how do we tell if evidence is real or fake?

I don't know.

Personally, I'm lucky in that I have had a number of ESP experiences which demonstrated to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that ESP does exist.  The reason I know this is because I was the only person involved (well more-or-less) and I know there was no trickery involved!

Evidence is very tough.

But please check out the Scole Report.  This was an investigation by the SPR in the UK of a series of sittings in which a huge variety of physical manifestations were captured and recorded, under conditions which would seem to completely exclude trickery.   The participants were all of good character, and it is said that there has never been even the remotest hint of any trickery or dishonesty every discovered.

Do a Google search on +"Scole Report", here's a couple of links:

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter05.html
http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=9&pageid=91&pgtype=1

And the book can be bought here (I've read it):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0900677066/qid=1103483224

If the Scole phenomena are real, then these go quite a long way to proving life after death.

I'm going to take a look at the Leslie Flint material now too... it looks interesting!  

catmeow

[Frank]

Major Tom:

Again, you give some interesting insights.

Speaking of Focus-12 and beyond, I discovered Focus-15 for the first time last week. Or at least I think I did. I’m not exactly sure how it came about, but I was lying on my bed just letting my thoughts drift and I felt a kind of shift. Didn’t really notice it so much at first, it was something that dawned on me perhaps a few minutes (not exactly sure) after it came about. It felt like I was entirely physical, so I slowly opened my eyes expecting the state to break, but it didn’t. The only way I can explain it, is it felt as if everything within the physical had just stopped, freeze-frame like.

Within my mind, it was as if there was no future and no past, and all that existed was the present moment; which felt expanded or widened somehow, and I was living in it.

I expected the state to break any second but it didn’t. Within my awareness came the description of “no time” that I had read before about Focus 15, that we talked about previously. I can say that that’s exactly how it felt. Like time had just stopped. I’m sure that it hadn’t. I’m sure the world outside was continuing as per usual. But it felt like, for me, it had stopped. What also felt doubly weird is the fact that I was fully awake and alert within the physical! But there was a sensation of being ever so slightly removed from my normal, fully awake self. But I do stress the word slightly.

I stood by my bed and slowly walked to the window. As I was doing so, I got a distinct sensation of travelling through time. Which I know sounds weird but it did feel weird. I then walked back to where I was before and got an incredibly strong feeling of déjà vu. It was as if I had gone back to the time when a minute previously I was standing by my bed. So I walked back to the window and the same feeling came about. I experimented by repeatedly walking to various points in the room, and each time I would return to a point, it was like I had returned to the time when I was there previously. It was exactly as if I was reliving the same moment, over and over.

After about 10 minutes (or that’s how it seemed) I got a distinct feeling that “I” had come to the forefront of my awareness again. I was still in the physical as before, but without that strange feeling. In other words, everything became normal. I am absolutely certain that I was within the physical at all times. I touched various physical objects, for example, and everything felt just as it usually does.

I’m sure this is the Focus-15 state. Because the description, “no time” just captures the feeling absolutely. But, as I say, I’m sure that time, in a wider sense, continued as normal, and the state pertained to me only. If I were to try to expand on the “no time” description, to me it felt as if I had my past and my future, and a large area had opened up between them. My mental focus felt as if it were situated right in the middle of this area… as if all that existed was a perpetual “now” and everything I did was time-referenced to that.

I hope to enter this state again and experiment further. The enchanting aspect is the fact of being fully awake and alert within the physical. Difficulty being I cannot recall how I got there, but I’m sure it’ll happen again before long. The fact of it being so physical is why I missed it before. I was thinking of the state in the sense of it being more of a non-physical state. But it would appear not. Based on my experience it would seem to be a different type of physical focus!

I keep searching around the Internet for more info, but haven’t found anything more than the usual bog-standard description of “no time”. It looks to me like yet another one of those situations where no one really knows, so everyone parrots everyone else. Of course, there is always the possibility that what I discovered is not Focus-15 at all. But the “no time” description suits it to an absolute tee.

Yours,
Frank

[karnautrahl]

The Monroe Institute, does it still train people in these states of mind?
I ask because I'm having difficulty doing anything more than move energy on a normal waking level. These alternate states of mind seem elusive and difficult for me to reach, at least so far.

[Frank]

Hello:

You need to check on their website for info.

Yours,
Frank

[TheJza]

I keep searching around the Internet for more info, but haven’t found anything more than the usual bog-standard description of “no time”. It looks to me like yet another one of those situations where no one really knows, so everyone parrots everyone else. Of course, there is always the possibility that what I discovered is not Focus-15 at all. But the “no time” description suits it to an absolute tee.

Yours,
Frank

Frank, what about this pdf http://www.capacitie.org/Wren/Dazzling%20Dark.PDF? Does this person's description remind you of your recent experience? Also, I thought you wrote in your Wave1 pointers thread that you have been to Focus 15 before, but I could be wrong...

[Frank]

I'm making this a Sticky post for a while to see where it leads, then I'll take the Focus info and add it as a supplement to the original Wave-1 pointers thread in the Sticky forum section.

Thank you MT for your further info. I keep trying to reproduce the state but no joy as yet.

Yours,
Frank

[wisp]

Frank,
Your post brings to mind the last time it happened to me. I had just pulled into the local grocery store. Can't remember my thoughts at the time but surely it was introspection. Anyway, the physical environment was at a standstill. Everything outside my vehicle had a pure structure existence about it.I tried to put a spiritual prospective to it and there was none. It was pure physical in nature. So ...thinking, where or what is this? The only thing to come to mind was that I was at the end of the road (the only phase or description I could think of). The scenery was that of desolation (like a still photo), a feel of my own personal existence. A feel that "I'm the god of my own world".

My late father (or some enity) may have communicated with me through the vehicle I was driving at this time (or just electrical weirdness?). While pondering this reality, one of the door locks began clicking up and down. The enity is telling me something, or maybe confirming my thoughts.The thoughts were simple,and I was also wondering what to do next.The lock might have been directing (guided or confirming) me to get out of the van. But, if this is so, why not just open the van door for me? This has happened before. The lock thing is still a mystery really.

I decided to go on about my business. While in the grocery store I observed my surroundings and the people closer than usual. I became aware that I was experiencing the optimal "spiritual" feel I get fairly frequently in daily life.The scene was very animated and very colorful. I felt self power and contentment.

A variation of the above experience is a slowing down or speeding up of time. These experiences are related to circumstances someway, part of the synchrony experiences I live in.

I haven't read the entire thread, but couldn't your experience be synchronicity? Synchronicity has a consistency to it, and is always present, whether the person recognizes it or not, imo.

[upstream]

I wouldn't mind to see the continuation of this interesting conversation but I'm somewhat triggered to do this flick. Frank, seems to me that your "F15-experience" has captured the essence of a typical projection, something I'm sure you already know about but from the point of view of your particular experience and for others as well it may be of some interest.

So, I think the stages of a typical OBE are:

1. shifting awareness into a permissive state - this doesn't require the sense of moving although it could help (stage of disidentification)
2. creating and leaving the dream representation of this state by separating and moving in a somatosensoric phantom (stage of dissociation and emanation of consciousness)
3. returning back to this origo due to the collapsion of the projection episode or moving back to the bed where the episode has started (retraction of consciousness)

The permissive 1st state has some stability itself. It is easy to project from this state each and every time the dream fades until sooner or later it will fall back into the waking state and the projection ends. In a typical postseparational state we can't see our body because the projection has already occured: our perception has shifted along the axis of consciousness to made the permissive, thus, except the case of an RTZ projection we do not share the same space anyomre that our physical body occupies.

In a typical OBE the preseparational state is represented by the dream space that surrounds the dream bed. I suppose that each and every "layer" of the human aura (energy body) has a dream representation with their own time and space properities that are progressively further away from the RTZ. It is like a multi layered sphere which is projected around the self by the interplay of the senses of our mind we reflect our self into at that time.

A couple of weird things can happen when I chose to move back to the bed in an OBE like dream. If I were not to do anything special to reach the RTZ it's sure I wouldn't seen any physical body at all, just an empty bed with some messy bedclothes. This shows how dream interpretation and expectations works. Another example when I sometimes see see an impression on the bed like I have just woken up. But it is very rare to see all the sings of a close to RTZ perception: sort of a pulsating grey mist and/or flashing images of my body from some weird fixed points of view.

I think it is very important to understand that moving the dream body is more than simply a progression in the 3D space of that given dream. This is especially true when we are still close to the moment of separation and to the bed (or in the case of a multi-layered projection to the space where we feel our last body layingt). Actually, when we walk away from our body or fly back into it a dimensionally shift occurs. This is similar to the first, Phasing like step of the projection which made the preseparational state and causes our difficulties to observe the physical body. The latter shift, however, occur by a dimensiomnally more inclined vector so to speak.

In rare cases when I walk back to my bedroom I would see myself getting out of my bed, sort of a time echo I think, in which I see myself from the previous or a later episode of the same projection. This has to do someting with the fact that there are projections in which every act of separation and reseparation occur in the same way - into the same direction and by the same style as they were actually results of the very same act of dissociation and share a common root. The same root then diverges into various episodes that occur at the same time but remembered sequentially afterwards.

Note, that every center of our self is determined by the energetic base of our memory we use in that state and our currently experienced reality is projected from this point by our senses. To share our experiences first we should interpret the raw sensory data by associating them with upstream memories that we can speak of. We couldn't share our experiences in a controlled manner unless at waking when we use our waking state bound memory. And this memory is feed through the brain so experiences that the brain cannot understand cannot be remembered.

I have to note, too, that this permissive root-like state has a tendency to shift "centrifugally" (further away from the RTZ) by every successive episode of separation and this effect has a great impact on the state bound memory. Since I think our waking memories are stored in the EM-patterns of the bioplasmic field this shift explains why is it more easy to remember the first episodes. Unfortunately, in most cases, the projected consciousness simply collapses before we can give a go for a controlled return which render more difficulties to observe the dynamics of these root states. I suppose Rubert Bruce has wrote about these things in his astral book(s) so I don't want to repeat trivialities.

My favorite method to "symmetrize" an episode of emanation (in order to restart it or create a new dream layer) is began by flying off from the ground to ensure I'm totally passive toward potential "external" forces. Then, before I state my intent aloud to get taken back into the exact position of my sleeping body (twin method, Castaneda) I isolate my attention from the current dream environment by observing minute details on my palm. The more OBE like the original dream was the more closer I'll be to the bed when I finally pressurised onto the ground after some brief erratic flight and twirl. At this point I'm in or very close to the (last) preseperational state. Now I'm able to start a new episode by detaching a phantom body. Another possibility is to project directly into the "astral" by expanding my consciousness upward and outward like a fountain.