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Author Topic: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?  (Read 29743 times)
SpectralDragon
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« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2004, 03:00:24 »

Nay, I understand what you are saying about "picking up the pieces," But I had actually literally told her this place is not good for her because of the negativity being thrown at her.

I would also like to add that most of you are acting like her case has not gone anywhere, IT HAS. The negative beings that are thrown at her are being blocked off. She has her own inner demons to deal with right now and should not have to worry about people who are telling her everything is in her head. Point in case: this case is getting closed.
quote:
My opinion..there is nothing anyone else can do for her. I also think some are not helping by feeding the, dare I say....fantasy.



I believe you are implying that she is either a fraud or she is dealing with thought forms. I have projected for a long time and have helped people like this for a long time. I know what a thought form is, and I had dealt with inner demon's brought about by my own ego right when I was starting to project. I did not know they were inner demons at the time, but I am now more experienced and know the difference between an inner demon and a spirit. I also know when someone is a fraud, and having helped Dark knight for many months now I would know if she was trying to trick me.

Back to edi's subject for a sec.
Typical new age thinking is spirit=love, goodness, and fluffy bunnies (sorry my humor is wierd too.) Therefore, according to this view, "evil spirits" don't exist.  I am seeing a lot of this in this thread, that all spirits external in the astral plane are all good. What I have noticed is that many new agers come from orthodox christian backgrounds. The idea that god is a being that makes all things for a good purpose, and that trying to astral project or do serious meditation will cause you to be yoked with evil demons. A friend of mine for example has avoided astral projection for a long time because he was afraid that it was demonic or he would get involved with demons. They still think that way when going into new age thinking. In order to deal with the nagging doubt that they might be getting involved with demons, they just say that demons and negative psychic forces do not exist. This is not the case. Evil exists because of life's will to exist, and becuase we chose to exist we are not perfect.

Another thing I am seeing relavent to this discussion is that people like to blame things on the person being attacked. If you think of a kid attracting a bully at a playground then normally what you would do is stop the bully and then try to take of the kid's inner self so he can become balanced and not attract negativity. What I am seeing are people preaching before they take care of the bully or simply not taking care of the bully at all. The kid cannot help himself if he is in the middle of the attack. He cannot become balanced because he has to worry about his own survival first. I am seeing pictures of you guys going up to Dark Knight right when she is being attacked and saying "you must embrace the fluffy bunies and become happy, you should have no negativity so the bully will not be attracted to you." and DK is saying "will you shut up and friggin HELP ME." The bully can be seen as an evil spirit as well.

Dark Knights problem with you guys is the help she got was the above situation. You all gave her advice and told her about the "fluffy bunnies" but you didn't help her with the bully at all, with the exception of Tay, Myself, and Ender.

quote:
*Darth Vador voice* come...to the dark side, SpectralDragon...come... sorry, once again, my humor knows no bounds... How bout we shake hands, and call it a draw?

Nay.....


I have a problem giving up, I am a dragon you know[Wink] Too much honor involved.

quote:
You can "empathise" only so much with someone who is openly critical and hostile before you need to say "sit down, shut up and LISTEN." Such words often come from a position of love and genuine caring. NOT saying anything, NOT speaking honestly is more often a sign of being uncaring.



I completely agree with this, and yes I have said "sit down and shut up" to the people I have helped before, but I don't have to do this with DK on the level I have to with most.
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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2004, 09:17:11 »

quote:
“I dont see any experiences being blocked by others (give me a qoute where you think it happens, if you can point it out, so we can learn from this too). Experiences are put here and people are free to comment on those, as it should be. I have given you response on some of the things you have previously written as i do now, to give you some input that you might find usefull. I do this in the interest of helping, trying to understand and yes learn something too.”

All right then, we’ll give it a try…problem is, Fuzzy, the blocks that happen here aren’t singular quotes they are entire contexts. And that is how I am going to describe them.

People under attack have a hard time making life work and have to compromise a tremendous amount of themselves just to make it through the basics of life,…have to fight sometimes to get the energy to get up and in the morning. Then on top of all that, they have to endure the abuse of people wanting to force fit their experiences onto theirs. When you tell them their ideas aren’t working, you’re told no, you’re just being irresponsible, or just being negative, why don’t you put in any effort…as if making life work as best they can wasn’t an effort. Your experiences are the end all, so it should work, and you deliberately put people who are under attack on the defensive to force it to be true. You forcibly challenge them to prove your wrong. The people suffering from psychic/supernatural attack are trying to cope with everyday life survival, they need serious help, not games…investing energy into something that does not work is just more energy depletion. It’s called honoring and respecting the self (how that is negative I have no idea). People who are under attack are expected to prove why they should have their needs respected…how in the hell do you prove that, especially when the consequences are flat out rejected as happening in reality.    

Well, forcing individuals to defend themselves on why they should have their experiences and needs respected works as intended…shuts up people suffering attacks real well…can’t move through something or take responsibility without acknowledging it exists. No focus, energy stops flowing, blocks form. Since you can’t defend yourself, you end up playing a game that doesn’t work which causes you to lose more energy (and that is what I call being positive for the hell of being positive). That is what I call positive for the hell of being positive. Tends to tinkle you off after a while (That is the point, God gave us the power to become angry as a pain receptor to warn us when our value is being diminished…that isn’t a negative thing).

When we do protest we get, “Why are you getting upset, it’s just an opinion, just a theory.” If it is just an opinion, just a theory, why are do you need to drive home the idea that individuals under attack aren’t positive enough, are lazy, and irresponsible. You don’t accept the idea that you can be overwhelmed, why? What’s the motivation? You’re more than willing to put forward the intent of giving the idea, but you don’t want any of the consequences that go along with it (noticed that’s a theme in a lot of these threads, lot’s of mention of the initial intent, no follow through). You don’t even acknowledge the consequences exist…you take all the benefits and none of the responsibility. Your ego does all the work and you take all the credit.

This kind of behavior takes its toll after time…Fuzzy, Sam, during the Christmas Holiday I exchanged emails with a former member of this site who was on the verge of suicide. She couldn’t do it anymore, couldn’t cope with the attacks and try to engage the forced defensiveness of the love and light loonies. That is the consequence this behavior creates. Hey when you convince people they have to prove they need their experiences respected, and that person can’t, the logic becomes “I don’t deserve respect.” I showed her something, I won’t say what. She wrote back saying that I had confirmed something she had been suspecting and it made her feel better. I gave the suggestion, she pulled herself up (she deserves the credit not me, I only validated something she had already thought of).

I keep hearing the “We got over abuse” line over and over. Yes, in answer to James’ question, that was a positive thing, in it’s OWN place and period. What is wrong is using it as the insertion point for every other experience their after. Like saying, “I gave to the poor so now I can rob a bank and use my previous experience as a cover and claim credit.” You cannot use a past experience as a substitute for dealing with the present. The positive of overcoming abuse is no more a substitute than alcohol, drugs, food, or shopping. You deal with a situation in the present on it’s own individual merits and yours. You not only drag it into the present you use it as a club to beat people to death with. Your “positive experience” is not more valuable than the person you are alledgedly trying to help, or the things you have to destroy inside that person to make it so.

And don’t give me this crap about helping or having compassion for people…there is a big difference between the abusive situations you were in and the situation a person under psychic/supernatural attack is in. When you were being abused, it was your hide on the line if you didn’t overcome it. You had to do everything required of you to get over it. But when people being attacked ask you for the same help and the same requirements are demanded, you give as much as you want to, and whine when more is asked of you. Who’s hide are you thinking about? And do you really need a damn shrink to explain to you that people don’t have to defend themselves to have their needs respected? Is that what it’s come down to, we need shrinks to explain to us how to treat people? That is beyond pathetic.

What right do I have to criticize…because human value was created by God and given to all of us. It doesn’t belong to any one person, and anyone, ANYONE has the right to criticize, (and I will especially do it when I read emails from the one girl who was near suicide, and for the most insensitive of reasons). A single person doesn’t need to be special alone, unto themselves, to do it,…God creating it made it special in all of us. You can’t declare a special title requirement or think you need one without denying the Holy Creation in yourself…and that is the greatest sin of them all.

Oh course I gotta wonder about people who would think being attacked makes them special, especially when they tell me they were abused and tortured. I wonder how special you were to be singled out by your abuser for torture if that is the case. What a lovely fantasy that is.

One more thing…I am getting ticked at the claims of credit by certain individuals who claim “they were helping me so much.” The only people who can claim credit for helping me are Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and Sunnyblue. Spectral in particular pulled quite a few entities out of me at his personal expense and expended energy to keep my energy from being ganged up on so I could grow, and I did. I hear a lot of credit being assumed for things I did and overcame myself…and I’ve got an MSN message dating 18Dec2003 for proof on quite a few things. Nah, won’t post it yet. That’s be like turning a comedy into a tragedy.

And if you’re wondering why YOU aren’t falling under the boundary of respect…your boundaries are intact and you are maintaining other boundaries by forcing people weaker than you to defend their need for respect (which they can’t). Causing harm to others does not earn you respect, and it damn well isn’t owed to you. Irresponsible moral cowards the whole lot of you.

 
quote:
Even when she projects her power over herself onto me or anyone else, that is still her decision.
(oh but I gotta love how much power I alledgedly have over others…you harp and sing about how you have gotten over your abuses and challenges, but I have the power to cancel all that out?)

I’ll say it again, I may not be perfect, but I am doing fantastic. So, Fuzzy, I’m gonna ask again, because Lords knows I can’t assume anything from people. Being that I’m fine, who do you think I was talking about in this post? Who do you think is bleeding to death?

 






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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2004, 09:17:11 »

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« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2004, 09:23:50 »

Spectral,
I will make what I hope will be my last comments on the subject of Dark Knight. I would also like to make an observation on some of your last comments which I feel to be more pertinent to this topic.

quote:
Typical new age thinking is spirit=love, goodness, and fluffy bunnies (sorry my humor is wierd too.) Therefore, according to this view, "evil spirits" don't exist. I am seeing a lot of this in this thread, that all spirits external in the astral plane are all good. What I have noticed is that many new agers come from orthodox christian backgrounds. The idea that god is a being that makes all things for a good purpose, and that trying to astral project or do serious meditation will cause you to be yoked with evil demons. A friend of mine for example has avoided astral projection for a long time because he was afraid that it was demonic or he would get involved with demons. They still think that way when going into new age thinking. In order to deal with the nagging doubt that they might be getting involved with demons, they just say that demons and negative psychic forces do not exist. This is not the case. Evil exists because of life's will to exist, and becuase we chose to exist we are not perfect.

 
Forgive me if I end up bringing up a lot of Robert Bruce’s writings here, but the fact is I, and my own experiences, agree very much with what he’s said. I do prefer to speak purely from personal experience where I can, and pretty much keep my mouth closed and just listen where I can’t, but he’s provided so much good info that relate to these cases.
 
RB makes a few references to the fluffy bunnies approach where people find themselves in the lower astral regions. Just like happy thoughts helped make Peter Pan fly, it will also help the traveller lift themselves out of the dark regions. Same is true for those who have suffered persecution or depression. The happy thoughts, the fluffy bunnies aren’t just psychology, such happiness does produce chemicals in the body, like dopamine, that really are beneficial to us both physically and mentally. So I don’t think that fluffy bunnies is just a new age avoidance mechanism, its something that has a measurable effect.
 
 I agree however, the idea that there are no ‘evil’ spirits (within reason to the definition of evil, which can be a very long winded subject on its own, so how about we just go with Bad Spirits) is completely ludicrous. Again, RB provided a good definition of the lower astral realms as being the places where the negativity of the human race (and any other race for that matter) is given form. Yes there is a hell, and we made it! Those that fear evil like this should simply not project as their preconceptions will become realised.


quote:
Another thing I am seeing relavent to this discussion is that people like to blame things on the person being attacked. If you think of a kid attracting a bully at a playground then normally what you would do is stop the bully and then try to take of the kid's inner self so he can become balanced and not attract negativity. What I am seeing are people preaching before they take care of the bully or simply not taking care of the bully at all. The kid cannot help himself if he is in the middle of the attack. He cannot become balanced because he has to worry about his own survival first. I am seeing pictures of you guys going up to Dark Knight right when she is being attacked and saying "you must embrace the fluffy bunies and become happy, you should have no negativity so the bully will not be attracted to you." and DK is saying "will you shut up and friggin HELP ME." The bully can be seen as an evil spirit as well.


The kid at school being beaten up by bullies cannot escape the fact that the problem happened, but he has the choice as to whether he’s going to allow it to happen again or not, or whether he’s going to live in fear for the rest of his life because of it.
 
I really don’t think the people here are blaming anyone who’s been attacked. That’s very much been DK’s perception, and frankly I just don’t see it. What I do see however is people who feel that someone in her situation should start taking more responsibility for their own recovery. DK has asked moderators to stop people from attacking her, and when we’ve looked at the situation, there’s been no attack. Quite the opposite in fact. There's been more of a need to warn her to stop attacking people.

To be honest I’m not surprised that people here have been unable to help her. Look at her first main post –
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6730

From the very start of her time on this forum she was hostile towards anyone who would not accept this personal crusade against the dark powers that she felt necessary to warn us all of. She threatened to leave this site then, but kept coming back, and continued being hostile to people. Why is that? What did she hope to gain from this? Attention seeking perhaps? Did she think she was teaching us all a lesson? She might have been telling people to shut up and help her, but only amongst words of scorn and criticism.

Think about these saying –

“Act the way you want to become and you will become the way you act.”
 - Dr Rob Gilbert

“I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you….we are all in charge of our attitudes”
 - Charles Swindoll

How has she acted towards people here? What has her attitude been like while she’s been criticising us for ours?

No matter what a person’s problems are, the administrator and moderators here are not going to allow someone to treat this forum and its members like doormats or punching bags.

When someone comes to this forum with such negativity, any words of encouragement, no matter how practical, are going to seem like fluffy bunnies. This is simply a matter of the point of perspective.

Regards,
James.
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Dark Knight
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« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2004, 10:10:30 »

ooo, forgot,

No, my problem with Mayatnik has nothing to do with whether there is gov't involvement or not...I have a problem with people who see lying as a legitimate method of conveying a lesson
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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2004, 10:30:27 »

quote:
RB makes a few references to the fluffy bunnies approach where people find themselves in the lower astral regions. Just like happy thoughts helped make Peter Pan fly, it will also help the traveller lift themselves out of the dark regions. Same is true for those who have suffered persecution or depression. The happy thoughts, the fluffy bunnies aren’t just psychology, such happiness does produce chemicals in the body, like dopamine, that really are beneficial to us both physically and mentally. So I don’t think that fluffy bunnies is just a new age avoidance mechanism, its something that has a measurable effect.


Yes I completely agree with Robert's philosophy there, but that is off topic a bit. We are not talking about somoone in hell, we are talking about a victim in the middle of a psychic attack. If I wanted to think positive while defending myself against someone throwing a punch at me I would get hit in the face. The same goes for a psychic attack. Deal with the problem first, then use the positive thinking. What I am seeing is the philosophy of telling the person to think positively while the punch is being thrown.
Example:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9742

Using this as an example:
quote:
The kid at school being beaten up by bullies cannot escape the fact that the problem happened, but he has the choice as to whether he’s going to allow it to happen again or not, or whether he’s going to live in fear for the rest of his life because of it.


Of course the people here are the ones who do not want the psychic attacks to continue, and have chosen to come for some advice and help if they can recieve. They get the "fluffie bunnie" and the "Negs are only caused by yourself" response (examples in link above) and wonder if they are being called insane or if they are getting help. Thus frustrated, they start taking out aggression on the two groups (1: fluffie bunny people)  (2: it's all you people) giving the response.

quote:
What I do see however is people who feel that someone in her situation should start taking more responsibility for their own recovery.


How can she be trying to recover when in the middle of an attack?

quote:
To be honest I’m not surprised that people here have been unable to help her. Look at her first main post –


I really HATE REPEATING MYSELF. For the last time she is recovering because ALL OF THE ATTACKS ARE BEING SHIELDED. This is about the tenth and last time I am going to say it. She is in a recovery state right now, and as some of you undoubtedly noticed very pleased to say it.

With all the people saying that "it's in your head" "this is your fantasy" "you must be positive" "I think you should question your own..." "You need to go to a psychiatrist" "It's your own thought form" coupled with the fact that she is asking for help, and in the middle of an attack. Add the fact that she is partly being controlled, and you have a VERY understandably mad person.

quote:
Think about these saying –

“Act the way you want to become and you will become the way you act.”
- Dr Rob Gilbert

“I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you….we are all in charge of our attitudes”
- Charles Swindoll


Good advice, I think the combination of these two are more suited to the situation, and why she is reacting the way she has.  

quote:
Treat others the way you want to be treated

quote:
Close doesn't cut it.


Also to quote DK directly on why she is acting this way.
quote:
Needing support occasionally isn't being a victim, it's being human


I agree she was a little too offensive in some posts but her reaction is understandable.
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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2004, 10:30:27 »



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« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2004, 16:20:07 »

Yes I completely agree with Robert's philosophy there, but that is off topic a bit. We are not talking about somoone in hell, we are talking about a victim in the middle of a psychic attack.

Hell is a relative term.  It is relative to a person's religion, and it is relative to a person's POV.  It seems I have seen DK describe her situation as "a hell" a number of times, and that is entirely relevant.  

Why does a person go to a hell?  Regardless of how just you view a God who sends souls to hell, it is supposed to be justice for a sinful life, as payment for their choices.

This is very relevant to our position.

If I wanted to think positive while defending myself against someone throwing a punch at me I would get hit in the face. The same goes for a psychic attack.

Perhaps you are doing it wrong.  Example from Tayesin's own site:
http://www.geocities.com/tayesin/index10.html

Of course the people here are the ones who do not want the psychic attacks to continue, and have chosen to come for some advice and help if they can recieve. They get the "fluffie bunnie" and the "Negs are only caused by yourself" response (examples in link above)...

This is the disagreement that you and DK seem to raise every time at our approach to your respective problems, and is the fundamental issue explored in this thread.   Let's take a good look at it.

You and DK take the fluffy bunny approach as being our denial that you actually have any trouble at all.  I don't think anyone on this forum would say it was actually that simple, but I don't speak for everyone else, I can only speak for myself.   The actual line of reasoning is that OUR OUTLOOK DETERMINES OUR EXPERIENCE.  You take this to mean that if we simply deny negative things, then negative things cease to happen, and you say "examples in link above" as proof of your assertion.

Very well, let me look at the link above, and I'll quote MY OWN examples:

quote:
If someone is harmful to us, then we should defend ourselves...

Yes, threats can happen and need to be dealt with...

Surely, bad things can happen to good people...


Nowhere do I say that negative things cease to happen, or simply do not exist.  Also, as James has pointed out, what we determine to be 'bad' is also individualistic, a matter of identification and polarization - but that may be too subtle a point for this discussion, if not this topic.

Your statement "...the "Negs are only caused by yourself" is a vast defensive oversimplification.

Thus frustrated, they start taking out aggression on the two groups (1: fluffie bunny people) (2: it's all you people) giving the response.

I see that differently.  I see someone who tried to fight negativity with negativity, got their butt whipped, and now they are going to do the exact same thing again.  

How can she be trying to recover when in the middle of an attack?

Here is something from elsewhere here at AP:

When someone you care about is ill or having problems, you can astral project to where they are in the real time plane and help them. You can see the colors and tones of a person's energy when you are in the astral. It helps if you temporarily change part of your shape when working on a friend or loved one. Extend the length of your arm and fingers and use them to go through your patient's energy field. Remove any energy that seems wrong or bad and then banish it from the person.

You banish the energy by changing it to a pure white color with different tones. You can also send it to a energy level which will disassemble the negative energy. A high- pitched pure white energy will destroy the components of anything negative. You will find that they do feel better the next time you talk to them. Sometimes they are so used to negative energy that it is drawn back to them. I have found that is because that the inner them feels that is the way it should look in their aura. They have to find the root cause of this and that is where my articles on letting go, forgiving yourself, and finding out if something else could be causing the problems come in handy.


In other words, you examine yourself, taking into account the character of the astral realm, for where you are opening yourself to this energy.

She is in a recovery state right now, and as some of you undoubtedly noticed very pleased to say it.

I am very glad to hear that she is feeling much more in control of herself.

Good advice, I think the combination of these two are more suited to the situation, and why she is reacting the way she has.

Your reply points out that you have completely missed the point of the quotes, which is our own power over ourselves, not others power to tinkle us off.

Also to quote DK directly on why she is acting this way.

 
quote:
Needing support occasionally isn't being a victim, it's being human


And this validates all her abuse of other people... how?

While researching my reply I came across another quote of mine which I think is relavent:

 
quote:
You will notice in Robert Bruce's quote used in Dark Knight's sig that he never denies karma or self responsibility, only that he is recomending a different approach to self-responsibility. You can no more deny your experience in the astral than seeing your own face in the mirror.


SD you speak at length about the value of Experience, expressing total confidence in yours.  However, there is a greater experience than our individual experience, and that is our collective experience.

If you really want to objectively test how our outlook affects our experience, than it should be treated scientifically.   Who is it that experiences the astral negatively, and who experiences it positively?  Correlate this with who feels 'threatened' and 'attacked' as opposed to those who do not feel threatened or attacked, and you will see what I mean.   Even further we carry our correlation of negative outlook, negative expectation, and negative experience.

You might say, "But not everyone is attacked the same."  True, but the problem with this, if you will research around, is that practically everyone has faced threats, some of them pretty horrendous - the difference has largely been their reaction to it, as determined by their outlook.   This, in turn, judging by the outcome, effects their experience.  

That is our point.

One more time, in case you missed it:    http://www.geocities.com/tayesin/index10.html

SD, the wording and reasoning of "The fluffy bunny" is nothing but an ad hominem derogatory exaggeration, designed to weaken our case against which you can think of no better counter argument.

For shame.
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« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2004, 19:57:38 »

SD,

Your arguments are at a point where you are trying to justify the actions of someone who went on the offensive against other members here LONG BEFORE they even started talking fluffy bunnies (hehe.. I'm afraid I'm going to have a hard time ridding myself of that term, it's a good one [Smiley]).

No, I'm sorry, her reactions on this site from the start have been neither understandable or justifiable. They are the reactions of a petulant child - stamping her foot because people aren't giving her the attention she wants. I saw the words "respect" used earlier - respect cannot be demanded, it must be earned.

To bring the conversation back to Perena's original point -

quote:
You can imagine other situations on your own, but you see where this is going. Where a natural approach to explore those things in a calm and positive way would do the job, the fear and negativity instilled by people who like to 'fight' and 'attack' for whatever reason does nothing to alleviate the problem - in fact it makes it worse! Where's the sense in projecting your fear outwards and then attacking them?


What I have seen you speaking of mostly here fits in with this scenario.  Violence begets violence. When you go on the offensive against these dark spiritual forces, you're playing their game. It would not surprise me at all if attacks are repeated as a result of this.

Look at Tayesins website, esp. the page Kiauma listed and you see a completely different approach -

"Even if you feel fear when confronted with a Dark Sider,  you must face that fear and respond Lovingly."

Is this not a fluffy bunny approach?

Please consider,
James.
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« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2004, 20:27:56 »

A direct quote from Robert Bruce's book, Practical Psychic Self Defense:

Avoid the Love and Light Approach:

Contrary to the advice of many modern spiritual teachers, turning the other cheek, refusing to fight back, and sending loving thoughts to an attacking or possessing neg is not productive and borders on the ridiculous. It is an ineffective approach when dealing with  attacking or possessing negs.

A channeled spirit once told me that I come under so many intense psychic attacks because I resist. It said my resistance was an open challenge and this, in itself, attracts and causes psychic attacks. I was told to stop resisting and love my enemy, and that the attacks would stop if I ceased my fiery resistance. I tried this once (I'll try just about anything once) and it almost got me killed. I suffered a lot more damage than I would have, had I countered the attack in my usual way. Submitting to an attack and sending loving thoughts, if anything, empowers attacking Negs.

...Negs thrive on love and light approach and use it to further their ends. They use these gentle spiritual beliefs against people. Negs play on these and often pretend to be misguided lost spirits, projecting seemingly harmless illusory forms to the perceptions of sensitives. But in truth they are just furthering their controls. Negs are masters of lies, trickery, and deception. A troublesome spirit, no matter what it pretends to be, should never be trusted further than one can throw it. Negs should never be given the benefit of the doubt.

pages 291-292 of Practical Psychic Self Defense.

And I don't recall Robert Bruce using Fluffy Bunny approach when he was demonically possessed and almost died out in the Australian Bush (pages 135 -142)

There is no Robert Bruce here...


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kiauma
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« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2004, 20:45:55 »

I disagree with Robert Bruce's POV.  

So, tell me how this works again - Love and light actually feed negs? [xx(]  His assertions run contrary to several WIDELY observed effects - kind of like yours.

I'm beginning to think nobodies perfect, not even Robert Bruce. [Wink]

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« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2004, 20:59:06 »

Hmm, this is what i personally think:

Being negative probally will draw attention from Negs. Keeping positive and ignoring attacks will help, but if needed you might have to fight back.

but in the end you have to look inside yourself, and fix the problems that you have. you have to create a end too the attacks. find out why they are happening.

true happiness comes from inside does it not ?

this is all IMHO
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Mick
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« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2004, 21:00:25 »

quote:
Originally posted by kiauma
[brHell is a relative term.  It is relative to a person's religion, and it is relative to a person's POV.  It seems I have seen DK describe her situation as "a hell" a number of times, and that is entirely relevant.  

Why does a person go to a hell?  Regardless of how just you view a God who sends souls to hell, it is supposed to be justice for a sinful life, as payment for their choices.

This is very relevant to our position.
 

I suspect that the term hell here is simply being used to describe a persons life under say duress and is not reflective of some spiritual judgement of that person.
 
quote:

Here is something from elsewhere here at AP:

When someone you care about is ill or having problems, you can astral project to where they are in the real time plane and help them. You can see the colors and tones of a person's energy when you are in the astral. It helps if you temporarily change part of your shape when working on a friend or loved one. Extend the length of your arm and fingers and use them to go through your patient's energy field. Remove any energy that seems wrong or bad and then banish it from the person.

You banish the energy by changing it to a pure white color with different tones. You can also send it to a energy level which will disassemble the negative energy. A high- pitched pure white energy will destroy the components of anything negative. You will find that they do feel better the next time you talk to them. Sometimes they are so used to negative energy that it is drawn back to them. I have found that is because that the inner them feels that is the way it should look in their aura. They have to find the root cause of this and that is where my articles on letting go, forgiving yourself, and finding out if something else could be causing the problems come in handy.



Hey, it looks like you have got it Wink
Someone assists someone else experiencing problems following which they have the opportunity to re-instate themselves to a secure and whole state again and get on with their life. I think this has been the thrust of some here for some time and the negative reaction (no pun intended Smiley ) is to the 'self' only solution whereas others accept that a kick start to assist someone is valid and viable.
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kiauma
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« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2004, 21:13:37 »

Well DK, I see you edited your post to be slanted more against people who disagree with you.  Tut-tut.

Honestly, I don't say this to be mean DK, but you are too ready of a self-made example to pass up.   Bottom line, why follow you and your beliefs when you are so obviously the antithesis of a positive functional person?  For all your 'truth', I see all your carefully nurtured 'hard spikey bunny' mentality has brought you is misery upon misery.  If seeing the 'truth' means I have to adopt your attitude and demeaner, then I would rather dissipate, because it could only mean GOd has abandoned us - which he hasn't, and won't.

Each time you display your virulent angry nature it only further reinforces what I already knew to be true, that negativity begets negativity, and violence begets violence - and today I am a ready enough self-made example of this.

Thanks for the demonstration.
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« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2004, 22:20:02 »

DK: fight the evil ones, the ones causing you pain. not the ones who are trying to help you. be loving to your friends, and fight against those who would hurt you.

i myself have also seen too many times when someone would try to help you and you would verbally assault them back. true, this negative attack against you might be happening, but that doesn't give you the right to hurt other people.

perhaps EVERYONE involved in this discussion, should step away from their computers and think about what's been going on and also to take a deep calming breath, before they reply again.

[Smiley] light and love to those who would help you [Smiley].

~kakkarot
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kiauma
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« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2004, 22:21:17 »

And another thing,

Negs thrive on love and light approach and use it to further their ends. They use these gentle spiritual beliefs against people.

Now I begin to see the depth of the misconception, and the root of the confusion.

Of course 'Negs' (Oh, how I abhor that expression) are deceitful, and 'prey' on people's ignorance - but what kind of horse manure is it to say 'Negs' thrive on love and light?

Let's look at this closer.

What is evil?  That is an easy one - evil is the absence of love.  Therefore, when we deny love, or withhold it out of fear, we are in fact being evil.  

But don't believe me - I just may be someone who is being manipulated by 'Negs'.   But how about Jesus?  Mohammed?  Mother Theresa?  Zoroaster?  The Bhagavad Gita?  Osho?  Don Ruiz... Gary Zukav...  a THOUSAND other spiritual giants who preached giving love freely?

You have one book DK, but I have a thousand for you to read that say otherwise.  I suggest you read them AND THEN if you can still stand here and talk about how love is used by 'Negs'...

...well, I don't know what to tell you.
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« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2004, 22:41:26 »

quote:
Originally posted by kakkarot

DK: fight the evil ones, the ones causing you pain. not the ones who are trying to help you. be loving to your friends, and fight against those who would hurt you.

i myself have also seen too many times when someone would try to help you and you would verbally assault them back. true, this negative attack against you might be happening, but that doesn't give you the right to hurt other people.

perhaps EVERYONE involved in this discussion, should step away from their computers and think about what's been going on and also to take a deep calming breath, before they reply again.

[Smiley] light and love to those who would help you [Smiley].

~kakkarot



i want to quote you so everyone can read your awesome post again.

everyone here for the most part seems so bent on "proving' something.

what's wrong with just simplfiying it like kakkarot did ?

If she has attacks, offer solutions. if not, offer her ways too help herself heal herself.

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kakkarot
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« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2004, 22:52:43 »

did jesus use love when he confronted the pharasees? when he called them hypocrites and snakes? when he overturned the money changing tables? [|)]

sure jesus did preach love, to the lost and those who need it, but not to those who ACTIVELY were messing with God's Will. if a man strikes you across your right cheek, turn to him the other also, but if a man willingly and consciously acts against God then you are to have nothing to do with them. (note the context: if a person acts against you, forgive them. if a person acts against God, don't hate them, but don't associate with them. if they still try to attack you, rebuke them, turn them from you, defend yourself. but once they give it up, let them go. but all of that is from a christian perspective.)

edit: thanks for the compliment shedt [Smiley]. but there was also another point that i was trying to make: (and this applies to DK and anyone else) if someone helps you, don't turn on them. it's just common sense Smiley .

~kakkarot
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kiauma
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« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2004, 23:02:21 »

Good way to step back kakkarot.  [Wink]

Yes, there is a Christian slant to that, which is hardly as simple as you are making out - but your point that the church's view is conditional is made.  There is a lot of debate of Jesus' 'original' message and how it has been changed throughout the millenia.
 
But in any case, 999 to go!  [Smiley]
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James S
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« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2004, 00:10:49 »

Kakkarot,

Thank you for once again injecting a bit of objectivity back into the discussion.

I've been starting to miss the point of the topic for the sake of making a more personal point. Regardless of how important I've considered it to be to make this point, it is not really helping to further the understandings of newcomers to this forum who might be reading this topic in the hope of gaining knowledge.

Dark Knight,

It is interesting that RB has made this point! In Astral Dynamics he has spoken of the effect of positive emotions and the effects they have on a traveller in the astral. He has also mentioned dealing with negs in the astral by way of using white light to fend them off. It may only be my personal opinion / perspective, but I've always equated white light - the purest of all energy - with the manifest love or spirit of the Creator.

I highly doubt Robert would provide info in one book that goes against what he's said in another. I think as with all references to someone elses writing we need to look more carefully at the context in which they've presented the information.

In case your wondering, no I don't dislike you, or all of what you've said. I've disliked how you've gone about saying it.

I've probably said enough. I doubt I can really contribute anything else useful to this topic without spending either more time learning from my teacher guide, or more time in the astral finding out things for myself.

Till then - take care,
James.
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kiauma
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« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2004, 01:24:38 »

Ya know, reading more careful it doesn't say 'Negs' feed on love, it actually points to them taking advantage of good intentions, I think.

In any case, I spose I had better back off for a while too.
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SpectralDragon
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« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2004, 01:56:56 »

Yes this has gone on long enough, we should stop for a bit.
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« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2004, 05:23:45 »

This seems to be a very hot debate so I will offer my brief 2 cents from a personal perspective.

First I must say that psychic attack is very real and is not being made up by anyone. As one who have travelled to the highest and lowest planes of the astral I have seen and heard things that would make even the bravest travellers quiver in fear.


Although there are different ways of dealing with these undesirables there are some simple techniqes that can be of great help.

 1. "Like attracts like" in other words if you are interested or constanly focussing your attention on these so called "negs" or other lower forms of astal life from the visible or invisible world they automatcally begin to draw themselves closer to you in the physical. It is like the flies that come around to feed on decaying matter.


2. "Passivity or Activity" this is another important rule in the astral as the stronger force will eventually overcome the weaker one. In other words if you wish to change your present negative mental or emotional condition you must engage in positive activities that will eventually overpower and replace the negative one .



These two rules can be used to prevent and even reduce many forms of psychic attacks.


Bluelight
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taom1234
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« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2004, 06:03:02 »

I was thinking....... the stronger of the vibrations will always overcome the weaker.  Apparently this was known even in the times of Socrates when it was discovered that our vibrations will be elevated in sync with  harmonious music. I know many of you, when APing, have felt that some of the etheric music is so profoundly moving, that if it were to be heard in our physical bodies, we would simply burn up because we could not contain it.
So......I was thinking...... if we were under psychic attack, we could remove the negativity by exposing ourselves to a lesser form of the etheric musical vibrations so that our physical bodies could tolerate it and burn off the negativity. The musical vibrations are so pure that it would work.  We would just need to be exposed to it in a lesser degree.
Just as certain harmonious music will very quickly "lift our spirits" (this term has true meaning from long ago...."lift the bad vibrations"), there must be a way to have these vibrations experienced in a lesser degree here in the physical world.  Does anyone know of any research that has been done in this field?  I have been thinking about this for some time now.  Every part of my soul tells me it is true and that there must be a way to have it work.
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Dark Knight
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« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2004, 08:12:34 »

All right Kakkarot, being a Catholic, I'd never turn down the advice of Christ.

Are you all that cut off from each other. You've turned self focus into isolationisn as Mick suggests, perfectly.

Your actions contributing to a suicidal person doesn't matter...at all. As always, thank you Kakkarot for proving to me that people only see the intent and do not care about the consequences of their actions.

Can't see it, can't feel it, it does not exist. Your perceptions are accurate and only yours, so there are no other lessons beyond the self. You "tried" up until the boundary that differentiates self from other.

Find the context? You have to acknowledge "self" and "other" and you can only acknowledge "self." You acknowledge the attack and nothing beyond it. That kind of pride will be costly someday.


 

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kiauma
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« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2004, 11:28:16 »

Your perceptions are accurate and only yours, so there are no other lessons beyond the self.

"Love thy neighbor as thy self"
~Jesus

A thousand books DK.  Your pride has cost you plenty, and continues to - but that point seems completely lost in your private context.

Projection, projection, projection.
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Dark Knight
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« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2004, 11:32:10 »

"how dare you be so comfortable at the expense of others..."

Mother Theresa


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