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Author Topic: Higgs Boson Particle Discovered  (Read 24370 times)
bluremi
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« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2012, 22:23:04 »

Xanth: I don't think they ever expected this to "pay off." This isn't like the pharmaceutical industry, where R&D is expected to bring returns when they make a new marketable drug. Like most research in physics, if anything with a dollar value is created it will be incidental to the main goal. This was funded by several countries working together, it's not a private venture at all. The goal was research for its own sake. Don't be so cynical Smiley

The Higgs particle is predicted by the grand unified theory: dozens of various particles and their behaviors have been predicted by complex mathematics, and their existence has all been proven through rigorous testing to the highest degree of accuracy. The Higgs is the only particle they have not observed, so in essence it's that missing piece of a jigsaw puzzle you need before you can claim you've solved it. A unified theory (and by theory we mean a set of laws that described observed behavior, not a theory as in a "hypothesis") has been the goal of physics for many decades now, hence the global effort towards finding this last missing piece.


I read an interesting teleportation study a while ago, that said Teleportation would have to overcome some serious natural laws to work. When you teleport something, you have to either physically transmit someone's physical matter and reassemble it at the destination, or you have to transmit data which describes the configuration of said matter and assemble it out of "spare parts" at the destination.

When you're moving matter, you run into the problem of finding enough energy to move it. Accelerating even a microscopic object to the speed of light takes an incredible amount of energy: to move a small rodent would take the power of an entire city. Consider the power you get when you explode an atomic bomb, with a core that weighs about 50 pounds. If it was perfectly efficient it would create an explosion in the hundreds-of-megatons range. Multiply that by 3x and that's how much power and energy you'd need to accelerate a standard 150lb person to the speed of light, if you could harness all that heat and light.

If you're moving data, you have a different kind of problem, because you have to capture and send all the states of every sub-atomic particle comprising a person. We don't have any way of transmitting or even storing that kind of data right now, even if we used every computer hard drive in existence on earth.

Can't speak for what we will have in the future, though Smiley
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Volgerle
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« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2012, 22:38:59 »

Do I think I'll see teleportation in my lifetime? Possibly, who knows? When I was a kid I would have flipped out knowing the tech that would be available to me in 25 years.
Psychic teleportation maybe already happened. In China. Even many years ago.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

Quote:

"The experiments were well controlled, scientifically recorded, and the experimental results were always repeatable.

The Chinese papers are all extremely interesting and very well written, and they show photographs
and schematic diagrams of the various experimental setups. The experimental protocols were explained
in lengthy detail, and thorough data and statistical analysis were presented in the results. The combined
results from the several Chinese experiments showed that:

- different research groups designed different experimental protocols, used different gifted
psychics, used different sealed containers, and used different test specimens (live insects, bulk
inanimate objects, and even radio micro-transmitters were used to track the location of the
specimens) that were to be teleported;
- the time required for the teleportation of test specimens through various barriers was anywhere
from a fraction of a second to several minutes, and this was not dependent on the test specimen
that was used, the sealed container that was used (or its barrier thickness), which experimental
protocol was used, or which psychic was being used
- the high-speed photography/videotaping recorded in one series of experiments that test specimens
would physically “meld” or blend with the walls of sealed containers; and recorded in a different
series of experiments that test specimens would simply disappear from inside the container only
to reappear at another location (after seconds to several minutes of time transpired), such that the
test specimen did not actually undergo total material disintegration/reintegration during
teleportation – this data is important, because without the aid of electronic monitoring
instruments, the average person’s sensory organs and usual methods of detection are temporarily
unable to perceive the test specimen’s (ambiguous) existence during the teleportation process;
- the radio micro-transmitter used as a test specimen in one series of experiments (Shuhuang et al.,
1981) transmitted a radio signal to several stationary electronic instruments/receivers, so that the
specimen could be tracked and monitored (via signal amplitude and frequency measurements)
during the teleportation process; the experimenters discovered that there was large fluctuations in
the intensity (in both amplitude and frequency) of the monitored signal to the effect that it would
either completely disappear or become extremely weak (to the extent that the monitoring
instruments could scarcely detect it) – it was discovered that there was a definite correlation
between the change in strength (i.e., radical frequency shifts were observed) of the monitored
radio signal and the teleportation of the test specimen, such that the weak or absent signal
indicated that the specimen was “nonexistent” (or in an altered physical state) during teleportation
(note: the monitored signal amplitude and frequency of the micro-transmitter specimen were
stable before and after teleportation);
- before and after “passing through the container wall/barrier”, the test specimen and the
container’s wall/barrier are both complete solid objects;
- the gifted psychics were never allowed to see (they were blindfolded in many experiments) or
touch each of the test specimens or the sealed containers before and after experiments were
conducted, and only the experimenters touched the specimens and containers (using both blind
and double-blind protocols);
- the experimental results were all repeatable
- the conditions for fraud and sleight of hand were totally eliminated, and multiple independent
outside witnesses (technical and military-intelligence experts) were present at all times to ensure
total fidelity of the experiments

The experimental radio micro-transmitter and high-speed photography/videotaping data offer an
important clue on what the teleportation mechanism is, and this will be discussed further in Section 5.1.1.
The Chinese were unable to offer any significant physics hypothesis that could explain their results.
Some researchers stated that it is necessary to invoke a new physics, which somehow unifies the human
consciousness (i.e., physics of consciousness) with quantum and spacetime physics, in order to
understand p-Teleportation and related PK phenomena. The researchers were amazed by their repeated
results, and were barely able to fathom the altered “state of being” that test specimens underwent during
teleportation."
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« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2012, 22:38:59 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Volgerle
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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2012, 11:53:47 »

Also: http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.physics/2005-02/10684.html

Quote
"The date is January 3, 1987; the place, Beijing. Inside the
Chinese Communist Party Central Committee Training Center for
Province-Level Cadres, a strange spectacle is unfolding before
the eyes of the approximately thirty witnesses in the room.

"Bring in the bottle!"

In answer to the command, someone brings in a bottle filled with
medicine pills of various kinds.

The official clerk inspects the bottle and certifies that it has
never been opened, the cork is firmly in place, the wax seal is
intact, and the plastic bottlecap is sitting securely on top.

"All right, you may proceed!"

The bottle is handed over to a man, who quietly concentrates his
entire being on it.

Soon afterward, forty-four medicine pills are transported out of
the bottle. The experiment in "psychokinesis" (moving objects
with the mind) is a success. The main character in this scene is
Zhang Baosheng, a man around thirty years old who is one of
mainland China's super psychics. Famous for his prankish
personality, Baosheng not only moved the pills out of the bottle
as he was supposed to, this time he also sent into the bottle one
piece of candy.

Fascinating, huh?  shocked
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Pauli2
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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2012, 12:16:58 »


That would not stand the Randi test, too poorly conducted experiment.
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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2012, 13:44:09 »

Nothing and no one passes the Randi test, so it is moot. Randi doesn't do much  but embelish his materialist claims by refusing dozens of possible anomalies from being tested. What Randi does is not science, because science does not depend so heavily on personal feelings and subjective opinions.

That is like saying that only containers which can hold more liquid than their volume are worth anything, or that the only real vehicles are the ones that get you there before you leave.
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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2012, 13:44:09 »



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Volgerle
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« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2012, 13:55:47 »

That would not stand the Randi test, too poorly conducted experiment.
I don't apply "Randi tests" to find sth fascinating.  wink

Imo, no one should apply Randi tests actually as they are not designed for a truly sceptical investigation at all.  undecided Anyway, let's not make this yet another Randi thread please.  rolleyes smiley

But yes, the second link is (opposed to the report above it) only almost 'anecdotal evidence' and it is also reported by a third party, although witnessed by a group then, even by a kind of official or military agency, still I agree that we cannot consider it as 'proof'.

However, for me it is at least still very questionable if a skilled magician with conventional 'techniques' could replicate the same and dupe the audience without any preps. Stage magicians (like Randi himself was one) actually might be able to do amazing tricks add-libbing, too. Randi might still assert to be able to do it. I have my doubts. Many pro tricksters and stage magicians might have severe problems if they do not prepare and 'set the stage' for themselves (have a home game, so to speak) - which was definitely not the case here, at least it does not read this way.

Robert McLuhan also mentions in his book (http://www.amazon.com/RANDIS-PRIZE-sceptics-paranormal-matters/dp/1848764944/) many historic examples where the skeptical investigators actually shackled the psychic, plus holding them personally, and the person was still able to produce telekinesis around the room and other feats. Some of the more skeptical investigators then probably duped themselves when they still maintained (beyond 'reason'!) that the psychic used conventional 'tricks'.

E.g. if the subject's hands and arms are tightly bound and controlled how can that person manage to let 'a hand' touch the shoulder of one of the investigators standing metres away and do other pk feats? Hypnotic techniques maybe? But it is group hypnosis then. On the other hand, hypnosis might be a paranormal thing, too, after all.
And even then the explanation for conventional techniques often is more 'paranormal' in itself then the original 'paranormal' explanations. That's the irony of all the Randi's 'explanations' in this world. Good examples of these events in the course of the history of paranormal / psychic research are described in detail in McLuhan's book. It's very illuminating.
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Pauli2
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« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2012, 14:47:03 »

Ok Volgerle, then take it from a more political perspective.

The purpose of the People's Army is to protect all of China from other nations.

The purpose of the Red Army is to protect the Communist Party from the Chinese people.

That's the basis for everything in China since Mao's takeover.
---


Then you have to consider some more contexts.

The Communist Party has time and time again put Buddhists in prison, some monks
who have been reported to have supernatural abilities before imprisonment.

Further, the regular Chinese people are superstitious. Large parts of the population adhere to the
old Chinese belief that when a government is to fall, it is preceded by bad crops, poverty or other
problems, something China has had lots of. The people has several times in historical settings
turned against their government and overthrown it during such hardships.

If the Communist Party can claim to have anyone in their control with supernatural ability,
they will make the work for the Red Army so much easier.
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Pauli2
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« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2012, 15:37:34 »

E.g. if the subject's hands and arms are tightly bound and controlled how can that person
manage to let 'a hand' touch the shoulder of one of the investigators standing metres
away and do other pk feats?

Why do you ask? Smiley

"Fry who was supposed to be tied firmly to a chair was allegedly discovered
to be free of his bonds and holding up a trumpet that hitherto was believed
to be levitating by itself."
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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2012, 16:18:02 »

If Randi didn't have that stupid challenge, would anyone here even know who he was? I sure wouldn't. Why does he get so much credit? It sounds like he's a half-assed Penn & Teller.
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Volgerle
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« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2012, 19:35:05 »

If the Communist Party can claim to have anyone in their control with supernatural ability, they will make the work for the Red Army so much easier.
So you think this series of scientific expermimentation including all the documentation work as it was published in scientific literature and translated by the DIA in the early 90ies is an all-out forgery (scam) by the Chinese gov/military to dupe the enemy (inner and/or outer enemies)? Hence the US military here also was duped: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2368189/Teleportation-Physics-Study ?

Quote
"In September 1981, an extraordinary paper was published in the PRC in the journal Ziran Zazhi (transl.: Nature Journal), and this paper was entitled, “Some Experiments on the Transfer of Objects Performed by Unusual Abilities of the Human Body” (Shuhuang et al., 1981). The paper reported that gifted children were able to cause the apparent teleportation of small objects (radio micro-transmitters, photosensitive paper, mechanical watches, horseflies, other insects, etc.) from one location to another (that was meters away) without them ever touching the objects beforehand. The experiments were operated under exceptionally wellcontrolled conditions (both blind and double-blind). The researchers involved included not only observers from various PRC colleges and medical research institutes, but also representatives from the PRC National Defense Science Commission. Because of the involvement of the latter, it was deemed necessary that an unclassified Intelligence Information Report be prepared by the DIA (see Shuhuang et al., 1981), which included a detailed English translation of the article.
Additional research carried out by the Aerospace Medicine Engineering Institute in Beijing was reported in the July 1990 issue of the Chinese Journal of Somatic Science (Kongzhi et al., 1990; Jinggen et al., 1990; Banghui, 1990), which was also translated into English by the DIA. Reported in several articles are experiments involving the videotaping and high-speed photography of the transfer of test specimens (nuts, bundles of matches, pills, nails, thread, photosensitive paper, chemically treated paper, sponges dipped in FeCl3, etc.) through the walls of sealed paper envelopes, double layered KCNS type paper bags, sealed glass bottles and tubes with sealed caps, and sealed plastic film canisters without the walls of any of these containers being breached. All of the Chinese experiments reported using gifted children and young adults, who possessed well-known extraordinary PK ability, to cause the teleportation of the various test specimens. In all the experimental cases that were reported, the test specimens that were teleported were completely unaltered or unchanged from their initial state, even the insects were unaffected by being teleported. The experiments were well controlled, scientifically recorded, and the experimental results were always repeatable." (...) (Rest of quote see other post )

Well, yes, anything is possible of course, but how have we 'proof' for this assertion then? I mean, we cannot know anyway. Just speculate.

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Pauli2
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« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2012, 20:24:19 »

... by the Chinese gov/military to dupe the enemy (inner and/or outer enemies)?
Hence the US military here also was duped:

I don't think they were duped.

They were scaring their enemies.

If those children could move an insect or a 3 cc of ice cream into a jar,
why couldn't they move 3 cc of the brain of Brezhnev into a tin can?

Fear is a mighty weapon.
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bluremi
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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2012, 21:38:29 »

I think your comment about Randi's test is unfair. Someone who wants to pass Randi's test is either

a) mentally ill and deluded into thinking they have powers when they don't
b) a charlatan who is lying and believes he can trick his way past the test or
c) sincerely able to pass the test because they have special powers.

If nobody passes the test it means nobody is in category C has taken it yet, not that the test is invalid.

If you thought you had powers but couldn't pass the test I'd say your powers are pretty useless because they cannot demonstrate anything of any value.
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« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2012, 02:50:13 »

Some context on the experiment.... It was predicated on the mathematical extensions of the Standard Model of Physics, one of several competing theories but supported by a dwindling few physicists who still adhere to it. Or maybe not; they could just be cynics who find existence off the government teat difficult, and haven't landed their dream assignment yet. As a retired physicist, I find John Wheeler, David Bohm, and Wojciech Durek's theories to align more closely with my own experiences. The mathematics scale to the macro, and new experiments are validating them. The Higgs field will ultimately be discredited, I believe.
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« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2012, 10:31:18 »

Quote
If nobody passes the test it means nobody is in category C has taken it yet, not that the test is invalid.

I would actually go that far and say the test is invalid.

Randi personally dismisses scores of potentially capable applicants for no other reason than his own whims (which he grants himself the right to do in the rules).

In the sense that many people who might have been placed in Group C have been dismissed through no fault of their own, the test is an invalid means of finding Group C individuals.
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Volgerle
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« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2012, 12:22:20 »

I don't think they were duped.

They were scaring their enemies.

If those children could move an insect or a 3 cc of ice cream into a jar,
why couldn't they move 3 cc of the brain of Brezhnev into a tin can?

Fear is a mighty weapon.
Yes, this might be a motive, too, for publishing it. After all, the military was present. Nowadays every progress or discovery is first thought of as being 'weaponized'. That's the sad state of this world we live in.
Anyway, what does it say about the veracity of the experiments? It even let's us conclude they might be the 'real thing'. They have been taken at face value by the writers of this scientific document (the Air Force's scientists), after all. Yes, you are right. Actually it is scaring if we have people in this world who could do these things to us. Not sure if I ever want to meet one.
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« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2012, 13:02:18 »

Anyway, what does it say about the veracity of the experiments?
It even let's us conclude they might be the 'real thing'.


That report was from the 1980ies, so I would expect someone else to have
been able to reproduce the same experiment, but it also has too much of
the Men staring at goats / Project Stargate feeling.

The amazing results by Charles Tart in the 1960ies have never been reproduced
either, and those where very simple experiments with low costs.

That's strange that no more results have been produced in modern time,
post year 2000.
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« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2012, 13:59:51 »

Quote
The amazing results by Charles Tart in the 1960ies have never been reproduced
either, and those where very simple experiments with low costs.

That's strange that no more results have been produced in modern time,
post year 2000.

Yes, I always found that odd too.

It was mostly the "Miss Z" materials that were published; Tart himself claimed that there were many more successes after that, but I don't really see record of them.

One thing is that funding for work like that was much more availible in the 70's when public orthodoxy would at least turn a blind eye to it, and to do it today is more-or-less academic exile, so you don't see too many attempting it unless they are already knee-deep in this stuff.

But that said, yes, I would also expect there to be more experimental anecdotes than we see for sure.
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Pauli2
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« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2012, 14:31:23 »

. . . and to do it today is more-or-less academic exile, so you don't see
too many attempting it unless they are already knee-deep in this stuff.

Yes, but there still should be some wealthy academics who could do those
very simple experiments under controlled forms. Some should have been
able to do those experiments for example, post retirement, but I find
extremely few such examples which holds water.

And there should also exist some wealthy benefactors who would like
to know what's true and fund those experiments, but very few such
success stories can be found.

That's really strange.
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« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2012, 19:26:26 »

Yes it should be much more. But we don't know what is being done in clandestine ways in secret (state?) labs around the world. We don't know if the Russians and Chinese kept up their psi research. I assume they do to this very day, so does the US and others. This document about the Chinese (if it is 'real' and I assume it is) is just the tip of the iceberg. Keeping things secret is a weapon, too.

As regards published material by non-affiliated researchers: well, it was mentioned correctly above that it is a funding issue. That hits the nail on the head. Psi does not yet comply with the materialistic Zeitgeist of present academia. Some say it is changing now and a consciousness shift takes place. But it may still take years to see an effect.

There is another hurdle to take: there is a great resistance by the orthodox science community to let these researchers publish their findings in peer-reviewed and renowned journals. But this being done is very imporant for ackknowledgement in science.

Dean Radin also always comments on careers on parapsychology. He says that young undergratuates are systematically discouraged should they consider to go along this path. That's the system, guys.  embarassed

Parapsychologists are a rare breed and they even might be even dying out now due to the dogmatic apparatus of materialist science clamping down on them from the beginning. It is all about careers. If you want to have a career you stop being an idealist and comply. Money first, idealism last.
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Volgerle
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« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2012, 19:31:50 »

I recommend this video by D. Radin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew
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Pauli2
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« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2012, 12:05:02 »

If we go back to the Higgs boson, the scientists say that they have not found the Higgs boson,
they've found one Higgs boson out of many possible bosons. And as they don't know the
exact properties of the Higgs boson, there is still possibility that the Standard Model will
fall. There are other QM models which predict up to 5 different kinds of particles similar
to the Higgs boson.

The problem is that the scientists collide protons, which in the moment of collision may have
their quarks aligned non-optimally. The collisions result in a very huge range of energies,
so the collider can only be regarded as crude measuring tool to a worth
of € 7.5 billion.

They will build a better toy next time. :)
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