Is The Universe An Illusion??

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Oblivion:
Reality to me just doesn't seem, how can I put it..............real.

I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.

I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?

So just how can anything truly exist and be here without everything being infinitely made of something?

Same goes for time, how slow can you go before time stops still? would time even stop? can you slow down infinitely without stopping?

Start with a second, half it, half it again, half it again. Keep halving time for as long as possible, how long can you half time for before you can't half it anymore?

When you go to sleep on a night you dream, within your dreams you can create anything you want essentially from nothingness, if you become Lucid that dream can become almost as real as reality and you can create from nothing because it's an illusion.
You don't question to yourself "what is everything here made of?" because it's not real, it's a creation/fabrication of your consciousness.

When you don't become lucid the dream doesn't seem as real but yet you don't even realise you are dreaming!!! it is as real to you when you are asleep as the waking world is when you're awake.
You are not even in control of your own dream and yet you are the one creating it!!!!!!!

So if we all ended up in a collective dream, a dream we all shared together and we created that dreamworld just how would we even realise we're dreaming? If one person can (when lucid) create a dreamscape as real as the waking world just how real would a dream be if over 6 Billion people and Billions of people on other planets were joined together in one single dream?

So in this place we call reality we hit a wall. Just how can everything be infinitely made of something else? it just simply can't. How slow can time slow down before stopping? it simply can't stop, it must slow down infinitely.

So I put it to you.

Is the Universe an illusion?

I asked this question on another board and the reply I got was "I think therefore I am".

In my opinion the saying "I think therefore I am" has no meaning to the discussion of whether or not the universe is an illusion.

If anything it could be "I think therefore I create".

Meaning we ourselves exist as a consciousness and the universe is of our own creation.

Our existence is not what is being questioned, we all undoubtedly exist but the question is does the Universe exist? is it really there or is it (just like our dreams) an illusion created from apparent nothingness.

If you look at say for example the Bible and Genesis God said "let there be light, and there was light". That sounds a lot to me like someone creating something from nothing, sounds to me like something you can do in a dream. You're in a lucid dream, it's dark and you say "let there be light" and there will be light.

I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.

newmethod:
Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 11:34:39

Reality to me just doesn't seem, how can I put it..............real.

I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.

I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?

So just how can anything truly exist and be here without everything being infinitely made of something?


I'm not sure about the word illusion..
What does it mean that the universe is an illusion?
Things here largely feel 'real-ish' to me but maybe i'm in the illusion  :?

there are things we (at least in the western society) seem to only now be perceiving more correctly on a wider scale (eg. we seem to create our own realities).. In the past most people probably thought "excrement happens" and it does.. but typically we are being active or passive participants in the play..

My take on things is that there was in the beginning nothing and through a very long an arduous process something arose from the nothing.. do not ask me how... but it makes more sense logically than there being something in the beginning..

I believe that the consciousness that arose from the nothing is at present infinitely more advanced than anything else that exists.. This is likely as it has had the longest time to develop and advance itself... Other consciousnesses may merge with it and should they do this their cumulative knowledge would likely be shared..

I believe before creating a physical universe that it had conceived... it developed a way to store the information it had gathered up to that point so it didn't have to start it's learning again.. due to the immense forces that would be required to create physical reality it's decided the building blocks of the universe (electrons, quarks, strings.. smaller & smaller etc..) would be storage devices for information so that it did not loose the knowledge it had gained... 

We are likely not living in the Creators first attempt at a physical universe..
I figure it is all consciousness not illusion

Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 11:34:39

Same goes for time, how slow can you go before time stops still? would time even stop? can you slow down infinitely without stopping?

Start with a second, half it, half it again, half it again. Keep halving time for as long as possible, how long can you half time for before you can't half it anymore?

When you go to sleep on a night you dream, within your dreams you can create anything you want essentially from nothingness, if you become Lucid that dream can become almost as real as reality and you can create from nothing because it's an illusion.
You don't question to yourself "what is everything here made of?" because it's not real, it's a creation/fabrication of your consciousness.

When you don't become lucid the dream doesn't seem as real but yet you don't even realise you are dreaming!!! it is as real to you when you are asleep as the waking world is when you're awake.
You are not even in control of your own dream and yet you are the one creating it!!!!!!!


Are we creating it? What is creating it? Is it consciousness? Where does it reside?

Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 11:34:39

So if we all ended up in a collective dream, a dream we all shared together and we created that dreamworld just how would we even realise we're dreaming? If one person can (when lucid) create a dreamscape as real as the waking world just how real would a dream be if over 6 Billion people and Billions of people on other planets were joined together in one single dream?

I figure we are living in it.. but i believe it is held together largely by the immense force of the Creator - partly by the laws that were imbedded in the building blocks of the universe.. With maybe a little help from our higher selves & other powerful beings... For what reason? As yet unsure..

Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 11:34:39

So in this place we call reality we hit a wall. Just how can everything be infinitely made of something else? it just simply can't. How slow can time slow down before stopping? it simply can't stop, it must slow down infinitely.

I thought the universe was still expanding.. is that not true?
When it does stop expanding i figure it will slowly collapse in on itself and BAM! - Another Big Bang with a new physical universe as a result!

Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 11:34:39

So I put it to you.

Is the Universe an illusion?

I asked this question on another board and the reply I got was "I think therefore I am".

In my opinion the saying "I think therefore I am" has no meaning to the discussion of whether or not the universe is an illusion.

If anything it could be "I think therefore I create".

Meaning we ourselves exist as a consciousness and the universe is of our own creation.

Our existence is not what is being questioned, we all undoubtedly exist but the question is does the Universe exist? is it really there or is it (just like our dreams) an illusion created from apparent nothingness.

If you look at say for example the Bible and Genesis God said "let there be light, and there was light". That sounds a lot to me like someone creating something from nothing, sounds to me like something you can do in a dream. You're in a lucid dream, it's dark and you say "let there be light" and there will be light.

I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.


I figure that the ORIGINAL CREATOR realised that instead of sitting around for another zillion years or so to have other conscious beings evolve.. that it has given us a head start on the path toward evolution by providing for us the physical & other realities we find ourselves in with laws that must be understood so that we evolve most rapidly..

So illusion or not? I do not know..

Just my two cents  :wink:

Stookie:
Quote

I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.

That's about as far as I've gotten at the moment. I'm fairly sure from my own experience that everything is just consciousness. A way I like to word the illusory aspect of it is: it's not that everything isn't real, but it's not real in the way we perceive it to be real. It's not fake, but our perception of it is skewed and with 6 billion people sharing the same view of it, we all support each others incorrect perceived reality. When 1 person sees it differently, it's nearly impossible to convince anyone else.

no_leaf_clover:
Everything has to be made of the exact same substance, with no difference in the material itself at all,  which is what unified field theories are looking for.  But from the vantage point of this single thing,  which must surely include or pre-clude consciousness itself,  everything is literally one.  Everything is a part of it like cells in our body.  So any difference from this perspective is pure illusion from a "lower" vantage point.

Greytraveller:
I would rephrase the statement to read that ---

The universe is a Misperception.

This means that Most of the universe has either Not been measured in any way or else has not been measured accurately. What 'science" knows about the universe is mostly limited because scientists do not, as yet, have the necessary ultra-sophisticated means of accurately measuring the Unknown.
By "Unknown" I include Intelligence - consciousness, quantum physics, faster than light travel and extra solar planets.
Regards  8-)
Grey

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