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Author Topic: Is The Universe An Illusion??  (Read 16207 times)
Oblivion
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« on: August 28, 2009, 11:34:39 »

Reality to me just doesn't seem, how can I put it..............real.

I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.

I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?

So just how can anything truly exist and be here without everything being infinitely made of something?

Same goes for time, how slow can you go before time stops still? would time even stop? can you slow down infinitely without stopping?

Start with a second, half it, half it again, half it again. Keep halving time for as long as possible, how long can you half time for before you can't half it anymore?

When you go to sleep on a night you dream, within your dreams you can create anything you want essentially from nothingness, if you become Lucid that dream can become almost as real as reality and you can create from nothing because it's an illusion.
You don't question to yourself "what is everything here made of?" because it's not real, it's a creation/fabrication of your consciousness.

When you don't become lucid the dream doesn't seem as real but yet you don't even realise you are dreaming!!! it is as real to you when you are asleep as the waking world is when you're awake.
You are not even in control of your own dream and yet you are the one creating it!!!!!!!

So if we all ended up in a collective dream, a dream we all shared together and we created that dreamworld just how would we even realise we're dreaming? If one person can (when lucid) create a dreamscape as real as the waking world just how real would a dream be if over 6 Billion people and Billions of people on other planets were joined together in one single dream?

So in this place we call reality we hit a wall. Just how can everything be infinitely made of something else? it just simply can't. How slow can time slow down before stopping? it simply can't stop, it must slow down infinitely.

So I put it to you.

Is the Universe an illusion?

I asked this question on another board and the reply I got was "I think therefore I am".

In my opinion the saying "I think therefore I am" has no meaning to the discussion of whether or not the universe is an illusion.

If anything it could be "I think therefore I create".

Meaning we ourselves exist as a consciousness and the universe is of our own creation.

Our existence is not what is being questioned, we all undoubtedly exist but the question is does the Universe exist? is it really there or is it (just like our dreams) an illusion created from apparent nothingness.

If you look at say for example the Bible and Genesis God said "let there be light, and there was light". That sounds a lot to me like someone creating something from nothing, sounds to me like something you can do in a dream. You're in a lucid dream, it's dark and you say "let there be light" and there will be light.

I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 11:58:20 by Oblivion » Logged
newmethod
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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 12:46:27 »

Reality to me just doesn't seem, how can I put it..............real.

I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.

I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?

So just how can anything truly exist and be here without everything being infinitely made of something?

I'm not sure about the word illusion..
What does it mean that the universe is an illusion?
Things here largely feel 'real-ish' to me but maybe i'm in the illusion  huh

there are things we (at least in the western society) seem to only now be perceiving more correctly on a wider scale (eg. we seem to create our own realities).. In the past most people probably thought "excrement happens" and it does.. but typically we are being active or passive participants in the play..

My take on things is that there was in the beginning nothing and through a very long an arduous process something arose from the nothing.. do not ask me how... but it makes more sense logically than there being something in the beginning..

I believe that the consciousness that arose from the nothing is at present infinitely more advanced than anything else that exists.. This is likely as it has had the longest time to develop and advance itself... Other consciousnesses may merge with it and should they do this their cumulative knowledge would likely be shared..

I believe before creating a physical universe that it had conceived... it developed a way to store the information it had gathered up to that point so it didn't have to start it's learning again.. due to the immense forces that would be required to create physical reality it's decided the building blocks of the universe (electrons, quarks, strings.. smaller & smaller etc..) would be storage devices for information so that it did not loose the knowledge it had gained... 

We are likely not living in the Creators first attempt at a physical universe..
I figure it is all consciousness not illusion

Same goes for time, how slow can you go before time stops still? would time even stop? can you slow down infinitely without stopping?

Start with a second, half it, half it again, half it again. Keep halving time for as long as possible, how long can you half time for before you can't half it anymore?

When you go to sleep on a night you dream, within your dreams you can create anything you want essentially from nothingness, if you become Lucid that dream can become almost as real as reality and you can create from nothing because it's an illusion.
You don't question to yourself "what is everything here made of?" because it's not real, it's a creation/fabrication of your consciousness.

When you don't become lucid the dream doesn't seem as real but yet you don't even realise you are dreaming!!! it is as real to you when you are asleep as the waking world is when you're awake.
You are not even in control of your own dream and yet you are the one creating it!!!!!!!

Are we creating it? What is creating it? Is it consciousness? Where does it reside?

So if we all ended up in a collective dream, a dream we all shared together and we created that dreamworld just how would we even realise we're dreaming? If one person can (when lucid) create a dreamscape as real as the waking world just how real would a dream be if over 6 Billion people and Billions of people on other planets were joined together in one single dream?
I figure we are living in it.. but i believe it is held together largely by the immense force of the Creator - partly by the laws that were imbedded in the building blocks of the universe.. With maybe a little help from our higher selves & other powerful beings... For what reason? As yet unsure..

So in this place we call reality we hit a wall. Just how can everything be infinitely made of something else? it just simply can't. How slow can time slow down before stopping? it simply can't stop, it must slow down infinitely.
I thought the universe was still expanding.. is that not true?
When it does stop expanding i figure it will slowly collapse in on itself and BAM! - Another Big Bang with a new physical universe as a result!

So I put it to you.

Is the Universe an illusion?

I asked this question on another board and the reply I got was "I think therefore I am".

In my opinion the saying "I think therefore I am" has no meaning to the discussion of whether or not the universe is an illusion.

If anything it could be "I think therefore I create".

Meaning we ourselves exist as a consciousness and the universe is of our own creation.

Our existence is not what is being questioned, we all undoubtedly exist but the question is does the Universe exist? is it really there or is it (just like our dreams) an illusion created from apparent nothingness.

If you look at say for example the Bible and Genesis God said "let there be light, and there was light". That sounds a lot to me like someone creating something from nothing, sounds to me like something you can do in a dream. You're in a lucid dream, it's dark and you say "let there be light" and there will be light.

I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.

I figure that the ORIGINAL CREATOR realised that instead of sitting around for another zillion years or so to have other conscious beings evolve.. that it has given us a head start on the path toward evolution by providing for us the physical & other realities we find ourselves in with laws that must be understood so that we evolve most rapidly..

So illusion or not? I do not know..

Just my two cents  wink
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 16:33:01 »

Quote
I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.

That's about as far as I've gotten at the moment. I'm fairly sure from my own experience that everything is just consciousness. A way I like to word the illusory aspect of it is: it's not that everything isn't real, but it's not real in the way we perceive it to be real. It's not fake, but our perception of it is skewed and with 6 billion people sharing the same view of it, we all support each others incorrect perceived reality. When 1 person sees it differently, it's nearly impossible to convince anyone else.
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The Astral Pulse
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 16:33:01 »



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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 20:25:07 »

Everything has to be made of the exact same substance, with no difference in the material itself at all,  which is what unified field theories are looking for.  But from the vantage point of this single thing,  which must surely include or pre-clude consciousness itself,  everything is literally one.  Everything is a part of it like cells in our body.  So any difference from this perspective is pure illusion from a "lower" vantage point.
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Greytraveller
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 16:26:39 »

I would rephrase the statement to read that ---

The universe is a Misperception.

This means that Most of the universe has either Not been measured in any way or else has not been measured accurately. What 'science" knows about the universe is mostly limited because scientists do not, as yet, have the necessary ultra-sophisticated means of accurately measuring the Unknown.
By "Unknown" I include Intelligence - consciousness, quantum physics, faster than light travel and extra solar planets.
Regards  cool
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greggkroodsma
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2009, 20:10:30 »

Reality to me just doesn't seem, how can I put it..............real.

I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.

I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?

So just how can anything truly exist and be here without everything being infinitely made of something?

Same goes for time, how slow can you go before time stops still? would time even stop? can you slow down infinitely without stopping?

Start with a second, half it, half it again, half it again. Keep halving time for as long as possible, how long can you half time for before you can't half it anymore?

When you go to sleep on a night you dream, within your dreams you can create anything you want essentially from nothingness, if you become Lucid that dream can become almost as real as reality and you can create from nothing because it's an illusion.
You don't question to yourself "what is everything here made of?" because it's not real, it's a creation/fabrication of your consciousness.

When you don't become lucid the dream doesn't seem as real but yet you don't even realise you are dreaming!!! it is as real to you when you are asleep as the waking world is when you're awake.
You are not even in control of your own dream and yet you are the one creating it!!!!!!!

So if we all ended up in a collective dream, a dream we all shared together and we created that dreamworld just how would we even realise we're dreaming? If one person can (when lucid) create a dreamscape as real as the waking world just how real would a dream be if over 6 Billion people and Billions of people on other planets were joined together in one single dream?

So in this place we call reality we hit a wall. Just how can everything be infinitely made of something else? it just simply can't. How slow can time slow down before stopping? it simply can't stop, it must slow down infinitely.

So I put it to you.

Is the Universe an illusion?

I asked this question on another board and the reply I got was "I think therefore I am".

In my opinion the saying "I think therefore I am" has no meaning to the discussion of whether or not the universe is an illusion.

If anything it could be "I think therefore I create".

Meaning we ourselves exist as a consciousness and the universe is of our own creation.

Our existence is not what is being questioned, we all undoubtedly exist but the question is does the Universe exist? is it really there or is it (just like our dreams) an illusion created from apparent nothingness.

If you look at say for example the Bible and Genesis God said "let there be light, and there was light". That sounds a lot to me like someone creating something from nothing, sounds to me like something you can do in a dream. You're in a lucid dream, it's dark and you say "let there be light" and there will be light.

I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.

I know that what you see is is quantum, whether the quantum thing you see is an illusion is your call.  I don't know what you see. 
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2009, 20:10:30 »



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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2009, 20:22:14 »

I'm going back to the O.P.
I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.
I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?
 Energy.
Energy isn't 'nothing'.
As to the universe being an illusion, illusion doesn't mean 'isn't there', it means 'it's not what it looks like'.
Maybe a better word would be a mirage.
As to what it is, I wouldn't know.
But it exists, it's just not 'just' what we can see and measure.  And that's not 'nothing'.
My opinion, obviously.
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greggkroodsma
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2009, 20:56:48 »

I'm going back to the O.P.  Energy.
Energy isn't 'nothing'.
As to the universe being an illusion, illusion doesn't mean 'isn't there', it means 'it's not what it looks like'.
Maybe a better word would be a mirage.
As to what it is, I wouldn't know.
But it exists, it's just not 'just' what we can see and measure.  And that's not 'nothing'.
My opinion, obviously.

Mirage is a good description.  Like, when you go in a desert and see a mirage, what is it?  Heat radiation.  Technically, it is temperature fluctuations.  But the atmosphere twists and turns; it morphs into shapes and images to entertain you.

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Yamabushi
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2009, 21:28:12 »

One of the things that we need to go beyond is the idea that things come from nothing into something. The unobservable energy density of the physical vacuum sort of makes one consider that things come from more into less. Remember how matter is mostly empty?

The actual universe is not an illusion, but you and I perceive only a small fraction of it. To facilitate and make possible the very act of observation and dualistic experience of a universe, some aspect of the universe must be invisible (unobservable) to us to serve as the "background." With that being said, even our perception of physical reality is deceptive. Matter only conforms in the lens of something that observes or measures. All "things" you experience with your senses are really sensorial, hologramic representations of interference patterns undergoing Lorentz transformation relative to your point of observation.

In other words, the universe is real, but the physical holodeck that your brain makes up from moment to moment as your body detects what is "out there" with its senses is represented phenomena, and relatively illusory.

YB
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greggkroodsma
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2009, 21:57:27 »

The concentrated matter and energy that makes up you comes into contact with the concentrated matter and energy that makes up me in any way and we separate. 
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newmethod
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2009, 22:25:48 »

One of the things that we need to go beyond is the idea that things come from nothing into something. The unobservable energy density of the physical vacuum sort of makes one consider that things come from more into less.
YB
Are you suggesting the beginning was like this also?
Please explain!!
 smiley
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2009, 22:31:43 »

One of the things that we need to go beyond is the idea that things come from nothing into something. The unobservable energy density of the physical vacuum sort of makes one consider that things come from more into less. Remember how matter is mostly empty?

The actual universe is not an illusion, but you and I perceive only a small fraction of it. To facilitate and make possible the very act of observation and dualistic experience of a universe, some aspect of the universe must be invisible (unobservable) to us to serve as the "background." With that being said, even our perception of physical reality is deceptive. Matter only conforms in the lens of something that observes or measures. All "things" you experience with your senses are really sensorial, hologramic representations of interference patterns undergoing Lorentz transformation relative to your point of observation.

In other words, the universe is real, but the physical holodeck that your brain makes up from moment to moment as your body detects what is "out there" with its senses is represented phenomena, and relatively illusory.

YB
I like how you described it, Yamabushi.
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Yamabushi
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2009, 22:46:23 »

Are you suggesting the beginning was like this also?
Please explain!!
 smiley

I don't think there ever was or is a beginning. Beginnings themselves only happen in time and time only happens in non-time (eternity), which is simultaneous.

I do think that the idea that things must have been nothing to become something is mostly based on cultural conditioning (many Eastern thought systems consider emptiness as the fullness of everything) as well as how we experience the effects of entropy upon the contents of our local time/space.

But entropy is relative, in my experience and research, so maybe it's better to say that beginnings, too, are relative.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 22:48:34 by Yamabushi » Logged
Oblivion
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 20:56:40 »

A lot of you missed the real point I was making. Even energy as well as matter is made of something, and that must be made of something and so on and so forth. It's not about what we can or cannot perceive it's about the fact for any of this to exist then matter must exist infinitely on smaller and smaller levels, time must be capable of being divided infinitely. This universe and reality doesn't feel right, there's too many impossible variables.

It's like a dream, a dream is possible because it's not really there, it's a creation of thought, a creation of consciousness. A dream does not need to be infinitely made of smaller and smaller bits of matter or energy because it's not really there.
It seems realistic to presume that what we believe is reality, the universe and everything in it is just the same as a dream. It's not really real but because we're here experiencing the dream inside the dream it seems real to us but when we one day wake up from all this we'll realise it was just a dream.

String theory aside we have scientist calling such things as Quarks as elementary particles, they say there's nothing smaller. How can there be nothing smaller? it can't just exist without being made of something because it's simply impossible. Saying a particle is elementary, the smallest you can go just stinks of misunderstanding and nobody questions how it's possible for a particle to not be made of anything.
String theory is all well and good but what's the strings made of? it seems pretty lazy to simply say "oh the vibrating strings are the building blocks of the universe, there is nothing smaller". How can there not be anything smaller? are you trying to tell me that these strings exist from pure nothingness?

The universe simply cannot exist from nothing, i'm not talking about the big bang, i'm not talking about whether the universe had an beginning or whether it's infinite that has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying.
I am saying that no string or particle can exist without being made of something. The only thing that can exist from nothingness is a dream, a creation of consciousness and THAT is what i'm saying this thing we call a reality really is, it's a dream, an illusion, it's a fabrication that is like a wall that's been built up around us.

We are stuck inside a room and the walls of that room aren't real, it's a fake universe. We are inside fabricated machines (bodies) that are also a part of the illusion to keep us trapped in the illusion so we can't see what is beyond it.

Only through development of spirit and consciousness will we finally break free, kick down the walls of illusion and see the real reality.
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Yamabushi
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2009, 00:33:57 »

A lot of you missed the real point I was making. Even energy as well as matter is made of something, and that must be made of something and so on and so forth. It's not about what we can or cannot perceive it's about the fact for any of this to exist then matter must exist infinitely on smaller and smaller levels, time must be capable of being divided infinitely.

That's exactly right, actually. You may want to look into R.N. Boyd's subquantum aether model.
http://rialian.com/rnboyd/subquantum.htm
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2009, 01:32:01 »

A lot of you missed the real point I was making. Even energy as well as matter is made of something, and that must be made of something and so on and so forth. It's not about what we can or cannot perceive it's about the fact for any of this to exist then matter must exist infinitely on smaller and smaller levels, time must be capable of being divided infinitely. This universe and reality doesn't feel right, there's too many impossible variables.
I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.  When you say "even energy as well as matter is made of something" it sounds like you think that energy and matter are different things and form is what gives it existence.
Is that what you mean?
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2009, 23:16:40 »

This, like much of the physics here sounds VERY confusing but I think I understand what you are saying, we see our universe in a different way to what it is, or we could be apart of a dream. Either way, we will never know, for that would be the destruction of the human race, and possibly the universe.
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2010, 21:30:38 »

Everything has to be made of the exact same substance, with no difference in the material itself at all,  which is what unified field theories are looking for.  But from the vantage point of this single thing,  which must surely include or pre-clude consciousness itself,  everything is literally one.  Everything is a part of it like cells in our body.  So any difference from this perspective is pure illusion from a "lower" vantage point.

It can be easy to "know" that everything is one, its harder to see and feel that everything is one.
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kurtykurt42
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2010, 21:51:02 »

My guess is that it will probably becomes easier to feel when we die. The biggest illusion is believing that we are all separate from each other.
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NoY
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2010, 13:36:41 »

I think the electron is an energy wave formed in the pressure between positive and negative poles.
it is an illusion like a foot print in the snow its not a foot and its not snow

energy pushes and pulls at each other forming the foot print in the middle. this is why you have a male and female hemesphere
because the universe is positive and negative the female creative destructive and the male consistently positive or consistently negative the control

what this dose is persistently alter the frequency of the electron and each dip and peek in this energy wave is a different person made in the image of god.. also we exist on a planet that orbits a star. if each ray of light from the star is at a different pitch then is a different reality and because we therefore travel through many dream worlds as we orbit insisting its the same all the dreams support a very stable reality but it is still a metaphysical reality its just supported by many that say its this way or that way.

if you think about it were not really here we are just reacting to our environment of eather a positive or negative influence
this means our environment is alive not us

:NoY:
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« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2010, 03:16:35 »

Here's my take:

I have always felt the same kind of thing you have.... that reality (or at least the reality we are currently perceiving) is an illusion. My short answer:

Everything we see as reality... matter, time, space, even ourselves, does not exist.  There is only ONE thing that exists: God / The Universal consciousness.  Everything else is created by thought.... the thought of the ONE.  Our separateness is also an illusion.  The perception of space and time, can best be explained by thinking of your mind as a radio tuner that is constantly receiving information in the form of frequencies (essentially vibrations), and this reality (and others such as Etheric Plane, Astral Plane etc) are merely the radio stations. 

Think of reality and linear time as a wavefront - not measurable itself as a measure of time, but is merely an ever moving focus point in a sea of frequency.... pure thought.  There is no actual movement though.... it's like scanning of a hard drive to access information to create a virtual 3d world.  In reality, that world occupies no physical space, but to a character within it, it would be their entire universe.  Our dreams work the same way.  While immersed within a dream, that world seems real and you can perceive passage of time, and movement within space.  But in reality, there is no space that you moved through, and time in the dream could have felt like hours compared to the actual passage of time in this reality.  This has been referred to as 'the little dream within the big dream' - this 'waking' reality of ours really being a dream, and us the characters within it.  .........Who then is the dreamer? 

Also, the matrix of human consciousness, or thought has been suggested to be akin to a hologram in the way that information is stored and accessed, and so too has the entire universe been referred to in this way.  There is a revered magical document called the Emerald Tablet that best describes this:  "As Above, So Below"  The Bible describes how we were made in God's image.  It's because all of us are a mirror of the creator, and part of the creator.  This matrix, this hologram universe of ours, and our own holographic consciousness, are all really the same thing.... one more quote to share "There is really only ONE of us here"    There is nothing else...... just pure consciousness, the consciousness of God, the creator. 

Okay.... the science behind my above conclusions:  matter is not really what we think it is.  The deeper we peer into things, the stranger they become, and everything appears to be made of the same basic 'stuff'.  What then makes things different? Answer: String Theory.... vibrating strands of energy.  It's only the difference in the frequency of the vibrations that make everything we know so vast and unique.  Sound / light / brainwaves / everything is based on vibrational frequency.  That includes our bodies.  And if our bodies are all made of the same exact 'stuff' then why do we all have different thoughts and consciousness? So much for consciousness being the product of biology!! Consciousness too is simply vibrational frequency.  So if the sea of vibrational energy is the same at the root of things... then how is our consciousness even separate from our own bodies?  It's not.. they are the same thing and everyone and everything are all the same thing... Just different expressions of the same pool of vibrating energy.  So what is this pool of vibrating energy then?  Science can't yet say what it is... but given the intelligent design of everything we know, it must be sentient.

One last thing to ponder: Big Bang.  God was said to have created the universe with a word.  A word would be sound - some say 'Aum' is that word, or close to it.  Sound is vibration.  Thought is frequency.  And a well known saying a "SPARK" of imagination..... a thought creates a spark of imagination ... a spark of creation. 

Okay... not such a short answer, but it's hard to get out in one paragraph!   
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« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2010, 02:06:42 »

I too feel this way occasionally
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 17:40:06 »

Have you seen David Icke's new book?
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2010, 23:17:48 »

I don't hpld much with Science, and I'm not a believer in a God either. I can't beleive this universe came from a 'Nothingness' (Big Bang) in order to create the matter and physical objects we perceive today. I see it as a sort of illusion, a base and physical condensation of Consciuossness/Energy that exists. We have such a limited and poor understanding of this, especially if we try to place a 'scientific' model of understanding/explanation of it. Only by a gradual meditative understanding can we understand it. There is BOTH Nothing and Something, the 2 cancel each other out. Like the Yin and Yang, both exist but are not the 'Reality' per se; They are like 2 sides of the coin; Only the coin is real.

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Killa Rican
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2010, 23:31:03 »

God Or Not, I'm with the mindset that Everything around us exists because it just does.
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For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice. ~Joseph Dunninger
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