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Author Topic: My favorite thought experiment  (Read 8520 times)
deepspace
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« on: January 13, 2014, 03:25:47 »

My favorite thought experiment is called the "quantum machine gun". For those who don't know it goes like this:

A machine gun is set up to fire based on a random quantum event such as measuring the spin of a particle. In any given measurement, there is exactly a 50% chance that the measurement will be one way or the other which equates to: gun fires or gun does not fire.

There are two people in the experiment, one standing directly in front of the barrel of the gun, and another who is merely observing. If the measurement is one way, the gun will make a "click" sound, if it is the other way, it fires.

Each time the measurement is made, the universe splits into two, one universe where the person in front of gun survives, and one where they don't. Once the measurement device is turned on, the observer would hear something like click-click-bang-click-bang-bang-click-bang-click, etc. From the perspective of the observer, the person in front of the gun dies after the first "bang", whereas the person sitting in front of the gun barrel hears click-click-click-click-click-click.

The reason is: The person sitting in front of the gun barrel can only experience the universe in which he/she survives. In other words: You can only experience survival.  
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 03:29:41 by deepspace » Logged

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Gaia
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2014, 14:47:59 »

You are aware that isn't how quantum physics works? Hypothetically, there is a universe for every single possible permutation of outcomes - in the case of the machine gun, all permutations of 'clicks' and 'bangs' happen at once. There is only one universe where the person will remember the experiment completing - the one where no shots were fired. In each universe, however, a person with their own consciousness is snuffed out.

According to your conclusion, that somehow there's only one consciousness which can transcend between universes, we would all live eternally as we would dodge any likelihood of death from any sources. Since we've never observed anyone living beyond ~120 years, your conclusion leads to the additional conclusion that the subjective consciousness is the only consciousness in the world and that nobody else is actually conscious or has their own 'life' or 'spirit' (otherwise they would also live forever, no?).

Your misunderstanding of quantum physics has backed you into a corner which is impossible to resolve. Philosophy: you're doing it wrong.
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2014, 14:47:59 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Xanth
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 00:01:18 »

You are aware that isn't how quantum physics works? Hypothetically, there is a universe for every single possible permutation of outcomes - in the case of the machine gun, all permutations of 'clicks' and 'bangs' happen at once. There is only one universe where the person will remember the experiment completing - the one where no shots were fired. In each universe, however, a person with their own consciousness is snuffed out.

According to your conclusion, that somehow there's only one consciousness which can transcend between universes, we would all live eternally as we would dodge any likelihood of death from any sources. Since we've never observed anyone living beyond ~120 years, your conclusion leads to the additional conclusion that the subjective consciousness is the only consciousness in the world and that nobody else is actually conscious or has their own 'life' or 'spirit' (otherwise they would also live forever, no?).

Your misunderstanding of quantum physics has backed you into a corner which is impossible to resolve. Philosophy: you're doing it wrong.
Well, technically, that's also not how quantum physics works... First, I'll admit that I don't fully understand this stuff, so I might be wrong, but this is my understanding of it based upon my research and my experiences with Projection.  Either way, in the long run, I don't really care if I'm right or wrong... I don't need to know how a car works under the hood in order to drive one.  hehe

In my limited knowledge of the subject, not all possible outcomes ACTUALLY happen.
They're only probabilities... only one outcome ACTUALLY happens, the rest of just probabilities, or in other words, the rest are just 'data'.
Only the outcome that is chosen from the "list" of probabilities actually happens.  No snuffing of other consciousnesses... that'd be a horrible waste of energy for consciousness to have to deal with.

Consciousness is a minimalist, we observe this on a daily basis... things take the path of least resistance in order to use a minimal amount of energy. 
To create an infinite number of new universes for any minute change which occurs is a horrible waste of "energy".  For anytime a charge on a particle changes... POOF!  New universe. 

Yeah, I don't see that happening.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 00:03:27 by Xanth » Logged

Astralzombie
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 02:00:46 »

Gaia,

Is it your intention to alienate yourself or do you just not understand how you are coming across? Another acceptable term for quantum physics is quantum theory. There's a reason for that.

We are a community that encourages independent thought. There's no need for anyone here to try and assert their intellectual superiority over another because it has the opposite effect.

Please relax when you read a thread that you don't agree with. Disagreement is fine and can lead to fruitful discussions or it can lead to a battle of egos where all sides lose. smiley

Here's a link that suggests deepspace's understanding is just a viable as yours when dealing with this matter:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2503370/Quantum-physics-proves-IS-afterlife-claims-scientist.html
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:05:00 by Astralzombie » Logged

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deepspace
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 04:18:29 »

Your misunderstanding of quantum physics has backed you into a corner which is impossible to resolve. Philosophy: you're doing it wrong.

This kind of comment reminds of someone who used to be here, but was removed from the forum after too much of it.

I'm hoping that you don't fall into the same category.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:51:53 by deepspace » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 04:18:29 »



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Lionheart
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 05:47:38 »

 The one fact that comes out of Quantum research is there are more "uncertainties" then there are "certainties"!  wink
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Xanth
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2014, 13:33:16 »

This kind of comment reminds of someone who used to be here, but was removed from the forum after too much of it.

I'm hoping that you don't fall into the same category.
LOL Smiley
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Volgerle
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2014, 13:52:50 »

.... not all possible outcomes ACTUALLY happen.
They're only probabilities... only one outcome ACTUALLY happens, the rest of just probabilities, or in other words, the rest are just 'data'.
Only the outcome that is chosen from the "list" of probabilities actually happens.  No snuffing of other consciousnesses... that'd be a horrible waste of energy for consciousness to have to deal with.

Consciousness is a minimalist, we observe this on a daily basis... things take the path of least resistance in order to use a minimal amount of energy. 
To create an infinite number of new universes for any minute change which occurs is a horrible waste of "energy".  For anytime a charge on a particle changes... POOF!  New universe. 

Yeah, I don't see that happening.
I second that. I also hope a little that the probabilities-"solution" is the true one. Imagine the "mess" we would be in.  cheesy
I think it is also the main difference between the Copenhagen and Everett's Many-Worlds interpretation of QP, if I am right on that (not sure though). So I'm a Copenhagener by choice and preference.  wink
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deepspace
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2014, 15:19:59 »

While I think the experiment is interesting, I don't subscribe to the theory. It's messy and too complicated, IMO. It hard to even imagine how many different universes there would have to be if every quantum event caused the universe to split into another 2 universes. On the other hand, Copenhagen's "wave function collapse" concept to me is a long way of saying "we just don't know what happens".

In light of recent experiments and the Leggett Inequality, the kind of inherent properties that materials appear to have in the world of classical physics, don't exist in the quantum world. Up to this point all the experiments have shown that in the quantum world, what's there is dependent on observation and there is no such thing there as the concept of "materialism" or "realism". Quantum physics is not compatible with the idea of an "objective reality". People who cling to materialism and realism are in one of those Many World's that don't exist.

Check out this link.

http://vimeo.com/85689418
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Xanth
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2014, 16:18:48 »

Pretty damn compelling video. 
That's going up on the website and Facebook!  I know a lot of people who would love it.
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GuyJohnston
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 23:23:34 »

This seems to be a variant on Schrodinger's Cat and quantum immortality. Mostly the latter Smiley The end result of quantum immortality is a chaotic nightmare consciously. But a wonderful balance in multiverse theory. Reluctantly withholding my more weirder ideas Smiley

Thanks, Guy


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