Christian OBEs & How they work!!!

[RJA]

I would love to hear your input.  As a Christian I naturally had some reservations about pursueing AP and after becoming aware of it I spent a year or two praying and pondering the issue before beginning.  

As a Christian and a free-thinker I've always felt like a square peg in a round hole, so it's been great for me to be able to read posts out here from Christians who are more like me.

I've been wrestling with how to approach AP for spiritual growth within a Christian context, how to assimilate all of the various AP-related info, books and posts, etc.,

Anyway, I'd love to hear how other Christians here view AP. What is it's spiritual purpose?  Should it be regarded as a "spiritual gift"? Should our approach be different than a non-Christian in how we pursue it? What are the spiritual dangers?  How widespread is this among Christians? Does the Holy Spirit lead us to pursue this or are we just not content to sit in a church pew and listen to sermons?  Should other Christians be encouraged to do this?

Anyway, I'd love to hear how others reconcile this with their faith.

Good topic, Mustardseed - I hope other Christians out here contribute! []

 

[Mustardseed]

Well I dont ofcourse know a lot of how others deal with it. I can only speak for me but I believe it is a gift of a sort. It is a bit like playing a instrument everyone has a latent ability to learn but some has a natural talent that makes their learning faster and their music more inspired. I seem to have experienced that allthough I believe RB is correct in part, to assume that there is no "astral Police" this would be a qualitative staqtement. As I stated in another post, I see no police when I go for a walk do normal day to day things however there seems to be  caurse and effect as well as retribution in a way so I would say it is possible that there are "astral Police" As we know from the Bible the law was made for the lawbreaker and it is my impression that RB (I only mention him becourse of his much writing) is a very honest and seemingly decent fellow. I feel he is really looking for the truth as so many others and thus is not in the category of lawbreakers who the "astral police" would bother. ( I also think that evil has a role to play. Astral police might just be sitting pushing buttons so to speak lowering or raising peoples suceptability to astral or physical attack rather that getting directly involved I think there are a few rules to observe. One is in motive, why one wants to have them what one does when one has them and more importantly what one does with ones life inbetween. I have had a lot of very deep and guided experiences during OBEs and to a degree use them as I do prayer. I have for years had a gift of prophesy and use OBEs the same way. I find that Allanons post was correct in that it stated (from memmory) "trying to have OBEs without the protection of the HS can be dangerous". I agree . However it seems also to have something to do with the choices the person has been making up to this point in life.  I would say that it is most likely important for a Christian to keep their nose clean as well, as there are lots of wierd theories and attitudes and some poison even flying around on these boards.
Regards Mustardseed

[Narrow Path]

The most meaningful OBE I ever had took place in the mountains. I experienced the vast amounts of spirit Christ gave up at the cross. I saw Him weep and understood I would never be able to pay Him back for what He did on the cross.

True Christian OBE's involve feeling the Love of Christ in your Heart.

[Passionate-fool]

It is a good idea to be cautious[].

I've only had one Christian oriented OBE.

I felt,what I can only call, the vastness of the universe collapse onto me and implode into less than the smallest particle I can think of.  When I reached that state all I could see was a light I cannot really describe and it was the Love of God.  As I watched, a beam of this Light pierced thru the universe and it expanded again as I watched the beam fall thru the sky and onto me.  I knew that even though I am nothingness in this universe, I mean everything to God and thats why He came down here to die for us.  And I plan on spending the first billion trillion years in heaven singing with joy and gratitude at the foot of the throne.

It was a spontaneous OBE and i've actually never really tryed to have one on purpose.  So, couldn't tell ya how they work for me.

God bless,

Passionate-fool

[Mustardseed]

I would like to ask who are Christians having OBEs. How does it work for you?? Can we make a group in a group and share experiences. I have some very interesting input but hesitate to put it for all becourse I do not want to stumble anyone.
Regards Mustardseed

[Berserk]

The teaching and practice of the early church is instructive on this issue.  St. Paul experienced at least one OBE, though he modestly declines to resolve the question of whether he experienced "phasing" or actually left his body: "I was caught up into the third heaven 14 years ago, whether in the body or out of the body, I don't know; only God knows (2 Corinthians 12:3)."  Here Paul anticipates Robert Monroe's shift from OBE talk to "phasing" talk to evade the unresolvable question of whether and in what sense one actually "leaves" the body.  Paul then equates the third heaven with "Paradise," an old Persian word meaning "park."  This is striking for 2 reasons: (1) Paradise is the preferred entrance point for Christians right after death (see Luke 23:42-43).  Paul's "park" reminds me of Robert Monroe's "park" which he designates as Focus 27.  (2) If Paradise is the 3rd heaven, then there must be a lower first and second heaven.  These 2 lower heavens remind me of the hollow heavens (Focus 25 and 26) allegedly visited by astral adept, Bruce Moen.    

The context makes it clear that the new Corinthian Christians considered their own OBE experiences and other divine revelations a badge of their spirituality.  Paul counters their arrogance this way: "That experience is something worth boasting about, but I am not going to do it.  I am going to boast only about my weaknesses...I don't want anyone to think more highly of me than what they can actually see in my life and message (12:5-6)."  

Paul then recounts his 3 prolonged prayer vigils to get God to remove some sort of "thorn in his flesh."  This thorn is some sort of physical affliction (i. e. likely the effects of malaria and/ or some sort of eye problem).  Though Paul has been used to heal others, God denies his request to remove this  "thorn" and offers this reason: "My gracious favor is all you need.  My power works best in your weakness (12:8-9)."  Paul's spiritual effectiveness derives from his humble acceptance of his physical limitations and his surrender to God's control in his miraculous ministry.

The church father Tertullian (200 AD) describes how a woman in his church regularly experienced OBEs during the worship service and reported back on her revelations to the elders after the service (De Anima 9:4).  . These elders then discerned whether each revelation was genuine or contaminated by spiritual deception.  So there is a rich history of OBEs in the early church.  These examples could be multiplied.  The early church recognizes that every paranormal experience of spiritual benefit has a counterfeit requiring discernment of the line between the genuine and the false.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Berserk
I was wondering if you have some information about the greek translation of thye verse in mention. As far as remember and could look up it was "I know of a man...." I understand it appers or is inferred by Bible scholars that this man is Paul himself, but do you some conclusive proof of this or even an indication apart from speculation. I also wonder the same about his Thorn so called. I know it is widely believed that Paul had bad eye sight but again...it is speculation. This could refer to anything from OBEs to sexual desire as well as any number of physical ailments.

My original post was to see if other Christians had obes and if so start some group or something. How about you. You seem quite knowledgeable at least in OBE and Christian theory...do you have personal experiences to add

Regards Mustardseed

PS Capt. Pichard I would suggest you look up this specific argument in a textbook or wiki or whatever ...it is a famous and very common logical mistake, it is called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" the ignorant argument. Many Christians and equally many atheists use this argument in their discourses and various types of defense for or against their position.

[CFTraveler]

I hesitated to answer, because as a christian who APs, I don't see the need to reconcile anything.
I read the Bible, and try to do so from a more historical context than a canonical context, and especially like to study what Jesus taught,  so I never have understood why some christians have decided that trying to AP or anything that resembles manipulation of energy is somehow taboo.  Plus Don said close to what I usually do when answering the question.
 I understand that there are lots of sects that consider different things taboo, that is just the nature of politics, but I refuse to believe that as a christian I am 'supposed to be' limited in my self-expression.

Was that too hostile? 

So, to answer the question "Christian OBEs &  How they work!!!"  I'd say, just like anyone else's.


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[Mustardseed]

  NOt too hostile or any kind of hostial actually. Thanks for the input. I agree with you. I started thyis thread a LONG time ago and have also grown considerable in the matter. My question pertains more accurately to the belief that Christians "only" enter beliefsystem terretories and not reality.

I find that interesting. It is a catch-all for any religious view or understanding of the OBE issue and wonder what y'all think about it

Regards Mustardseed

[Berserk]

Mustardseed, I quoted the New Living Translation to avoid muddying the waters with the issue you raise.  But I am delighted that you are biblically literate enough to raise it.  The Greek reflects the wording you mention.

(1) Let me first address the unresolved issue of Paul’s “thorn in the flesh.”  The modern scholarly consensus is that this thorn is some sort of physical ailment, not sexual obsession.  The leading candidate is some sort of vision problem.  But I can allow you to assess the plausibility of this conjecture yourself by quoting the relevant Pauline texts: “I can testify that if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me (Galatians 4:15).”  "Just look at the large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand (6:11)!”  The other major candidate is a chronic malaria condition.  Paul’s extensive travels through Asia Minor and Greece would have exposed him to countless malaria-carrying mosquitoes.  The relevant quote from Galatians 4:13-14 is more vague: “As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the Gospel to you.  Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn.” 

(2) There is greater certainty about Paul’s 3rd person reference to himself as “a man.”  This is Paul’s way of being coy about unwanted prestige accruing to him through his visions and revelations.  The clearest hint that he is talking about his own experience emerges from the shift to the first person in 12:6-8, especially: “To keep me from being conceited about these surpassing great revelations.” The word “these” clearly points back to experiences like his OBE reported with the 3rd person in 12:1-4.

As a United Methodist pastor and an ex-theology professor, I sense no aversion among many Christians to involuntary OBEs or NDEs.  Self-induced OBEs are more controversial.  But I see no reason why this distinction is crucial.  True, one might encounter spirit impersonators during OBEs, but any spiritual gift has its counterfeit; and Paul urges us to actively strive for spiritual gifts.  Indeed, a couple of months ago my sermon topic was, “How to Become a Prophet.”  I distilled materlai from my doctoral thesis for them.  The sermon seemed to be well received.  In the ensuing weeks, parishioners reported impressive revelatory dreams and highly luminous waking visions in darkened bedrooms.

I don’t have time to talk about my own quest for revelatory OBEs, but will do so later.  I encourage you to read my thread, “Swedenborg: Father of Astral Projection” on p. 3 of the first OBE topic on this board.  He is the most gifted astral adept ever and in the higher planes he allegedly immerses himself in Christ’s presence wherever he goes.

[Stookie]

When I started OBE'ing I had a hard time coming to grips with my Lutheran background, and moving forward I became fairly anti-christian, wanting nothing to do with it. Like it had been holding me back from finding a more true reality. I struggled until I finally "let go".

But after a while I had some experiences of "consciousness" and a better understanding of what it is, and of course became curious as to how my Christian background and Christ relates to all of it. I don't have many answers, but the concept of "Christ" continuously comes into the equation.

So going back to Mustardseed's original intent of this topic, I didn't have OBE's until I renounced Christianity, but it brought me back full circle with a better understanding.

[Berserk]

Here are some of the questions I ask myself about potential Christian OBE patterns.  My own apparent OBE explorations are too few and rudimentary to be relevant.  If you have a Christian background, I'd appreciate your reaction to these questions.  What is really at stake in this issue?

(1) Are Christian OBE adepts more likely to visit real or illusory Christian heavens?  If so, do they usually
     visit planes that fit their preconceptions or are they shocked by a uniquely different experience?  Or
     are there so few Christian OBE adepts that few have ascended to the relevant higher planes to
      provide a pattern? 

(2) What is the relevance of Christian OBEs during NDEs to our question?  If beliefs follow expectations
     during OBEs, would we not expect Christians to often identify impressive astral figures as Jesus, God,
     or a distinguished Christian figure?  Are these identifications merely projections of archetypes or
     deceptions created by spirit impersonators?  Or do Christians often actually encounter encounter
     Jesus, God, or famous Christian figures during OBEs?  Do we have even enough case histories to speak
     of such trends?  Of course, these questions are complicated by the fact that Christians themselves
     enter the OBE state with different beliefs and expectations.     

I actually have anecdotal data for (3)-96) below and will provide details later:
(3) What if non-Christians encounter Christ without recognizing Him (e. g. Robert Monroe)?
(4) What if many atheists encounter the Being of Light during NDEs and this Being identifies Himself as
     Jesus even though the atheists never believed in Him?
(5) What if thousands of Muslims encounter Jesus during visions and at times during NDEs and are
     converted through this encounter?  Remember, the Ouran is high respectful towards Jesus as a virgin-     born prophet.

Don

[Everlasting]

Christian  OBE's? does that mean you're experiancing the illusion of your religion on the astral planes.

[Mustardseed]

Christian  OBE's? does that mean you're experiancing the illusion of your religion on the astral planes.

Very cute. The kind of  "innocent" phrasing of an atheist. Very cute in all its adorable malice.

[Capt. Picard]

The history of Christianity is full of "adorable" malice.