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Author Topic: contradictions in religions  (Read 13312 times)
Leyla
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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 03:56:23 »

Well, there are chuncks of it on the Volcano thread, which has now been locked because one person feels victimized. All I did was quote Bible verses and Strongs.  

I asked him to stop reading the thread since it was upsetting him so badly, but he would not and has ruined it for the rest of us.
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Beth
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2006, 04:09:24 »

Welllll....I would have to disagree with your volcano theory, on the grounds that I do not take the biblical narratives as literal accounts...of virtually all of its claims.  

I have found that the bible is full of metaphors, symbols, allegories, similies, allusions, etc., and through a study of both the Greek and Semitic languages, as well as some Latin, that the meanings of all of these things can be determined to be quite different than the narrative stories reveal; I am finding a very different understanding of scripture in doing so.  

As for the quotations you used to support your theory, several of them, I think are referring to the Logos, or 'Reason', oftentimes described as the 'element of fire' and also known as the 'Mind of God'.

But that's just my two-cents worth...

~Beth
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Beth
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2006, 04:21:14 »

p.s.  If it is Mustardseed that is being so offended, well, all I can say Leyla, is he can be a really 'tough nut' but he has also really come a long way over the past few years!  Like I said, it will take time Leyla...and A LOT of PATIENCE....

p.s.s. .....hey mustardseed !!! :flowers: how's it going?  Are you back to causing 'astral angst' again Huh?  :naughty:   :heartsmile:
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Leyla
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2006, 04:26:43 »

Well, I did suggest to the group to lay off of him, because I know learning new things must be very painful to him, it is flying in the face of what he has always belived.

It's clear from the text that this is a real life physical mountain they are talking about. Not a symbolic or figurative one. Bible scholars have postulated for years the location of this original "mount of god;"so we know it is not a mystical metaphor.

Borrowed from paker7 http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Archaeology/eden.htm

“The Biblical word gan (as in Gan Eden) means `walled garden,’ ” Rohl continues, "and the valley is indeed walled in by towering mountains." The highest of these is Mt. Sahand, a snow-capped extinct volcano that Rohl identifies as the Prophet Ezekiel’s Mountain of God, where the Lord resides among `red-hot coals’ (Ezekiel 28:11-19). Cascading down the once-fiery mountain, precisely echoing Ezekiel, is a small river, the Adji Chay (the name of which also translates in local dialect as ‘walled garden’). The locals still hold the mountain sacred, Rohl says, and attribute magical powers to the river’s water.

Consider the very primitive mind set of the people who wrote the Old Testamant. They were the same as the modern Fundamentalist Moslems you see on the news, shooting off guns and dancing in dirt streets.

They didn't write the Old Testamant as any kind of "mystical metaphore." In there minds these writings were "Gods Truth," the only truth, and they would have you stoned to death for suggesting otherwise.

I think the "mystical metaphore" theory is a way for modern Christians to escape all the blood, gore and clearly immoral actions attributed to God in the Bible.

It is so much easier to think it wasn't meant to be taken literally, and that none of the butchery really happened, when in fact, it was written to be taken literally, and the butchery was real.
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Leyla
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2006, 04:36:03 »

Also, the two chunks of Quotes at the beginning of this post were borrowed from me. (Contradictions in the ressurection/burial story, and Jesus says he wasn't God)
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Ryuji
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2006, 07:10:16 »

Leyla
Quote
Also, the two chunks of Quotes at the beginning of this post were borrowed from me. (Contradictions in the ressurection/burial story, and Jesus says he wasn't God)


i am sure you dont mind Smiley)

umm just stay with contridicitons related if possible here  cool

apart from the Quran i havn't had the time this week to find more on other religions.

Peace and Love
Ryu

~You are your only limit.
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Leyla
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2006, 06:05:48 »

No I don't mind, you refrenced me and gave me credit.  I was just answering Beths question.
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Beth: I am interested to know what your research entails...give me a thread and I can read up on it, or you can summarize here...


(I had already summarized here. She must have just must have missed it.)
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Ryuji
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2006, 12:31:27 »

Beth/Leyla is there any place where i can read up on council of Nicea the voting account and the doings of Emperor Constantine's.

did the rabi's then do magick or and kabbalah which seems very hebrewish.
 

Thanks,
Ryu
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Beth
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2006, 13:41:50 »

Dear Ryu,

There is a good general place you can go that you can search almost any topic pertaining to the ancient doings of Christianity:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

You won't find everything that you may be looking for in there, but you can search by most any topic, e.g., Councils, or specifically Nicea, Church Fathers, Mithraism, Easter, or any person such as Constantine, Clement, Jerome, Augustine, Origin, etc.  

It is a very valuable resource for these topics...and be sure to follow any other links that an article may provide.

As far as magic and kaballah, yes, the ancients (not just rabbis) practiced many kinds of magic, mainly due to the fact that their belief systems were full of superstitions that allowed for that kind of thing, as well as experimenting into those powers that surround us that are not superstitious.  The formal Kabbalah did not form until the medieval period, and this was certainly within the ranks of Jewish Rabbi's by then, but the name itself means 'tradition' so they no doubt kept alive a lot things that the ancients had studied and practiced, albeit that they updated it to medieval world thought.

Go to: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp  and again, search most any topic, e.g., magic, Kabbalah, superstition, etc.
 
And when searching for these topics, any .edu site is pretty reliable because they have been required to do their homework...

That is not to say that other sites are not informative, just be careful until you can verify certain claims with reputable back-up data or you may be lead astray. Verifiable resources are 'outside of the bible ancient written sources' so be sure to check any and all footnotes provided.  If there is no backup supporting documentation, then it may well be just a conjecture made by someone without any supporting information....and A LOT of wild conjectures are being made all the time...

Happy Hunting!!
Beth
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CFTraveler
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2006, 14:45:15 »

Any good college library would have information on the Nicene(Nicean?) council, although when I was in college it was in the restricted section.  Besides the above lookups you can also look up the Arian Heresy, and Irenaus.  (He was one of the bishops involved in the forming of catholic (ancient christian) policy.
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Abraham
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2006, 06:33:46 »

Quote
Quran

# What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

   1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
   2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
   3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
   4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
   5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).


lol. That is very ignorant. Those are all stages of development. They are all mentioned in several verses(to make sense of it):


"And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth).

Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).

Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (leech-like substance), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators. " [Surah Mu'minoon ayaat 12-14]



O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily! We have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge i.e. offspring of Adam), then from a clot (leech-like substance) then from a little lump of flesh, some formed and some unformed (miscarriage), that We may make (it) clear to you (i.e. to show you Our Power and Ability to do what We will)." [Surah Al-Hajj aayah 5]

Allah created the first human (Adam) out of the dust and clay, and He created his children in the wombs of the mother through the stages that were listed. Im sure if yout ry hard enough you can 'make up your own contradictions'.


 

Quote
# Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

   1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
   2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
   3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
   4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).


As for the fourth verse, in no way does it contradict the first verse "There is no compulsion in religion" It dose not call to force non-Muslims to Islam, but rather until they pay jizyah and feel themselves subdued(accept the authority of the Islamic state).

As for the third verse that you posted, and the second, the problem is you omitted the verse in the middle of them(they are in the same chapter), which clearly state that the 'forcing' was only to be done against those who broke a treaty.

And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (pagans) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad ) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

Except those of the pagans with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves  the pious

So when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:3-5).

Its funny how you try to find contradictions, but twisting the text and omitting verses, but in the end it they are just lies.


Quote
# The first Muslim was Muhammad?  Abraham?  Jacob? Moses?

   1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
   2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
   3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).


The third verses makes no reference that they would be the first.

The second verse is Moses (peace be upon him) saying " I am the first to believe" in the sense that noone else will see God in this life. This is what was said regarding the verse by many commentators and companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

As for the first verse, Allah revealed different shareeahs(sets of laws) for different Prophets. As Allah says in another verse "To each nation We prescribe a way" . So in a lingustic sense it means that the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) is the first to submit to the way hat Allah revealed to him for his people(that abrogated the laws that came before it). And to show you im not just making up this interpretation, then another verse of similarity can clarify it for you:

(161. Say: "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, a right religion, the religion of Abrahom, monotheism, and he was not of the pagans.") (162. Say: "Verily, my prayer, my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of all that exists.'') (163. "He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."

Notice how Allah mentions Abraham and that they are upon the same message, and that they are both upon Islaam, but the Prophet Muhammad sws is the first of the Muslims of his nation.

For a fuller explanation by a classical Islamic scholar : http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=6&tid=17347

Quote
# Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?

   1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48).  Also 4:116
   2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).



Allah forgave them because they had repented before death, but if one die upon shirk(associating partners with Allah) then Allah will never forgive you.

"Say: "(Allah says) My Slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

"And turn in repentance and in obedience with true Faith (Islamic Monotheism) to your Lord and submit to Him, (in Islam), before the torment comes upon you, then you will not be helped. " [Surah Az-Zumar 53-54]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said "Whoever dies while stille invoking other than Allah will enter hellfire, and whoever dies while invoking Allah alone(and noone else) will enter paradise."
 


Quote

# Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

   1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
   2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
   3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
   4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).


The issue is simply a misunderstanding of what it means when it says "none can change His words." He clears states in the other verses that it is He who substittues one revelation for another, not any human being, jinn, or creation. Likewise, It is His Decree that He should change some of the revelation and none can change that.

Quote
# Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

   1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!  This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
   2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"  So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).


The first verse is actually a miracle that testifies to the Truth of the Qur'an and in no way contradicts the second. The Pharoah who was drowned was found in the ocean by archealogists in egypt and they have his body preserved.

Quote
# Is wine consumption good or bad?

   1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
   2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
   3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).[/


Another ridiculous claim. The wine in paradise is not an intoxicant.  Proof for this are in the verses:

"They will be served by immortal boys,
With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine,
Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication. "
[Surah Waaqiah ayaat 17-19]
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Beth
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2006, 15:44:07 »

My response to this is the same as the one just posted in another thread:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=190386#190386

~Beth
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Gandalf
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2006, 01:17:16 »

Abraham_

Take a chill pill mate.

btw I am a pagan and i'm comin 'atcha like a wicker-man on fire!

My Neo-Platonist philosophy & theology allowed for the very development of your religion so put that in a pipe and smoke it!


 wink
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Abraham
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2006, 04:03:21 »

Quote from: Gandalf
Abraham_

Take a chill pill mate.

btw I am a pagan and i'm comin 'atcha like a wicker-man on fire!

My Neo-Platonist philosophy & theology allowed for the very development of your religion so put that in a pipe and smoke it!


 wink



I have seen you make that claim a few times on this forum. I'd like to see where you have got such an idea from(that platonist philosophy played any role in Islam).

Thanks,

Abraham
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Beth
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2006, 05:47:40 »

Abraham,

While Gandalf can certainly speak for himself, and I hope he does, I can say right now that Judaism, Christianity and Islam would not exist if not for Platonism.  In fact, unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam is additionally dependent upon Aristotle as well.  

You want proof???....Read something besides the Quran and Surah... read something academic, like the history of religions in the western/near/middle eastern world...study some of the ancient Islamic philosophers such as Averroe:  

Averroe--1126*1198 also Ibn-Rushd Spanish-Arab philosopher & physician; wrote philosophical works (ca. 1179), especially commentaries on Aristotle, on Plato's Republic; chief reconciler of Islamic and Greek thought.

If you want proof of the things that we talk about...do your homework.   STUDY about the world that you live in...not just your religion.  

We have done our homework; it is not our job to do your homework for you.


~Beth
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