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Author Topic: contradictions in religions  (Read 15916 times)
Ryuji
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« on: February 07, 2006, 11:37:33 »

Christianity...

From Leyla if person dont mind Smiley

Quote
WHO CARRIED THE CROSS?

-Mark 15:21 Simon of Cyrene. (Matt 27:32 and Luke 23:26 agree with Mark) Simon carried it, by himself.
-John 19:17 says "JESUS himself carried the cross."
(No where does it say the cross was carried by both men. According to the gospel, it is either one or the other.)

DID EITHER OF THE TWO THIEVES BELIEVE JESUS?

-Matt 27:44 says niether one believes
-Mark 15:32 niether one believes
-Luke 23:39-41 one does not, but one DOES
(only one gospel out of four has the famous conversion story)

HOW LONG WAS JESUS IN THE TOMB?

(remember jews count days from sundown to sundown)
-Matt 28:1 Three days and two nights
-Mark 16:2 Three days and two nights
-Luke 24:1 Three days and two nights
-John 20:1 Two days and two nights

*WHY IS HIS TIME IN THE TOMB SO IMPORTANT?*
Because it means he was not the true Messiah.

In Matt 12:38-40 he said he would remain in the tomb for THREE days and THREE nights, and that would be the sign he was the true messiah. Jesus did not fullfill his own prophecy.

IS MARY PERMITTED TO TOUCH JESUS AFTER THE RESURRECTION?

-Luke 24:39 Yes "Behold my hands and feet..handle me and see."
-John 20:17 No "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my father."

WHO WAS AT THE TOMB, AND WHAT DID THEY SEE WHEN THEY GOT THERE?

-Matt 28 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary saw one angel.
-Mark 16 Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, and Salome saw a young man in white.
-Luke 24 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women that were with them saw two men in shining garments
-John 20 Mary Magdalene saw two angels in white.

WHERE DID THE DISCIPLES MEET THE RESURRECTED JESUS

-Matt 28:6-7 "Galilee"
-Luke 2433-36 "Jerusalem"
(They are about seventy five miles apart)

HOW MANY DISCIPLES DID JESUS HAVE?

-MARK 3:16-19 THIRTEEN
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios, lewis bar halphaios, iakobos bar halphaios, thaddaios, Simon the Kananite zealot)
-MATTHEW 10:2-4 TWELVE
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios the tax collector, iakobos bar halphaios, lebbaios thaddaios, simon the Kananite zealot)
-LUKE 6:13-16 THIRTEEN
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios, lewis the tax collector, iakobos bar halphaios, judus bar Iakobos, simon the Kananite zealot)
-JOHN only mentions NINE
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas the twin, judas bar simon the iskariot,
Ioudas, Nathanael of Kana)


Quote
"The MESSIAH" & CHRIST
Messiah from Hebrew Masiah & Aramaic Meshina, is literally expected king and deliverer of the Jews, not the son of Yahweh/God! Christ is from the Greek Christos. literally meaning, anointed. Every single Jewish king was a "Christ" it simply meant annointed. A new king was anointed with oil at his coronation.

It does not mean "son of God". The Messiah was NOT supposed to be God, only a really great hero-priest-King. They wanted a hero/rebel to lead the rebellion against Rome.(deleted from Bible by Roman writers, although traces remain) It should be noted that "THE Messiah" is different from "Messiah" which is the Hebrew word that we get the Greek "Christos" from. They mean the same thing. Yep, "David" was a messiah too.

JESUS WAS "VOTED" A GOD IN 325CE.
Like in most of Christianity; a bunch of old Roman politicians took votes to determine the course of the new religion. Yeshua was voted a God, rather than a prophet at the council of Nicea in 325C.E. he was de-deified and re-deified twice and was a god permanently in 380, this was about politics. Yeshua never thought he was God.

JESUS DENIES HE IS GOD
Apparently the council of Nicea missed this one. "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one and that is God." And again, "Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, and that is God." (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19)
When questioned on this verse, one Christian actually told me: "Jesus Lied."

BUT JESUS TALKS ABOUT BEING GOD IN THE BIBLE!
Well lets take a look, shall we?

BAR-NASHA - Jesus called himself "bar nasha" "son of man" 28 times. It means in the three Semitic languages "a human being"

BAR-DALAHA - "Son of God" (oh, oh, they got us here huh? -nah) In the Aramaic-Semitic language "bar-dalaha", "God's son", "God's child" is used many ways and may refer to an orphan, peacemaker, etc. You see it must be understood that the term "bar" does not mean "son" in a literal way it refers to a likeness, and a special relationship. Never in Hebrew scripture or in the New Testament does it refer to a physical relationship. Easterners will use the term "son" as like saying "beloved" [the very idea of a actual sonship from God was seen as blasphemy to Jews, but not to Romans, hmmm]

EHEDAYA- "the only begotten son" (lest they throw this at ya, here it is) Jesus never claimed to be God's only son, that claim was made by others, and found only in the Gospel of John. John has it as a translation of the Greek "monogenes" which is two words, singular and kind, when put together mean "one of a kind" I don't want to get into the breaking down of the Greek, suffice to say, it is an improper translation. A better rendering would be "unique son". It does not even come close to meaning what Christians think it means.



small one from me Tongue
Quote
NT
I Corinthians 13:4 - love is not jealous

OT
Exodus 20:5 for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God
Malachi 3:6 I the LORD do not change.


dont have on other religions as i havnt seen posts about them or read for example the quran 100x times over :/

it would be interisting to have other religions here with there contradictions
and please dont go and flame each other this for study and not anti-some-religion Smiley

Peace and love
Ryu
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Ryuji
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2006, 08:27:14 »

Quran

# What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

   1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
   2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
   3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
   4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
   5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

# Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

   1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
   2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
   3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
   4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).

# The first Muslim was Muhammad?  Abraham?  Jacob? Moses?

   1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
   2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
   3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

# Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?

   1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48).  Also 4:116
   2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).

# Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

   1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
   2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
   3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
   4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).

# Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

   1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!  This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
   2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"  So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).

# Is wine consumption good or bad?

   1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
   2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
   3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).
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Leyla
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2006, 08:42:54 »

Interesting.

I find it strange that Moslems get to "sin" in heaven.
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The Astral Pulse
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2006, 08:42:54 »



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Leyla
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2006, 08:45:38 »

*double post*
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Gandalf
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2006, 15:49:54 »

JESUS WAS "VOTED" A GOD IN 325CE.
Like in most of Christianity; a bunch of old Roman politicians took votes to determine the course of the new religion. Yeshua was voted a God, rather than a prophet at the council of Nicea in 325C.E. he was de-deified and re-deified twice and was a god permanently in 380, this was about politics. Yeshua never thought he was God.




The council of Nicea was not 'a bunch of old roman polititians taking votes to determine the course of the new religion'.

The council of Nicea WAS convened by Emperor Constantine who had converted to christianity and once in command of the Roman world summoned all the leading figures of the Christian Church from all corners of the Empire to Nicea to hammer out with each other the finished, official 'be all and end all' doctrine of the Christian Church, which up until that time had differed in certain ways depending on where it was based.
Constantine hoped that the new religion would prove to be a powerful tool to unify the Empire and in that he was right, but the uniformity of doctrine he hoped would come out of the Council of Nicea was never completely realised and doctrinal divisions continued to rock the new Church for centuries, and still continue to this day.
The Council of Nicea was one of the most significant moments in European history and helped shape its culture and politics, paving the way for the medieval world of the future.

It is true that bishops resolved issues through the vote but this has always been the case with the Church. After all, it is a human organisation like any other, however the voters were bishops and many were the early Church Fathers whose doctrines laid the foundations of the Christian religion.

Doug
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 02:26:26 »

Most all of the contradictions within the Christian bible can be explained by the research that I have been working on for the past five years.  Soon to be released as an e-book, I show where the literary tool of 'proper name wordplay' was used by four different writers to ultimately come up with what we now know as 'The Four Synoptic Gospels'.  

In short, biblical proper names were created to have certain lexical meanings.  When four different writers use the same list of proper names for the characters in their stories, and each writer utilizes the lexical meanings that make certain key motifs and other narrative details possible, then what you get is four generally agreeable versions of the same story with only a few details that differ.  

As a result of this finding, biblical contradictions and inconsistencies can be easily explained as individual creative license on the part of each writer...and...when writing 'fiction' that is a totally acceptable thing to occur.

The bible was a multilingual storybook; not the word of a God, or even the 'history' of any peoples.  The biblical characters were totally fictional, from Adam and Eve, to Abraham and the Hebrews, to Jacob and the Twelve Tribes of Israel, to Jesus and the disciples.  This is why the world's desert diggers can't find anything to support the biblical accounts...it is all fiction...quite good fiction for the ancient period in which it was written, but fiction nonetheless.

~Beth

p.s. I will let everyone know when the e-book is available.  I am doing my final, final edit  grin
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 02:26:26 »



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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2006, 10:53:18 »

Quote
Gandalf: The council of Nicea WAS convened by Emperor Constantine who had converted to christianity and once in command of the Roman world summoned all the leading figures of the Christian Church from all corners of the Empire to Nicea to hammer out with each other the finished, official 'be all and end all' doctrine of the Christian Church


Woah, hold on there Nelly.

There was an Evil emperor of Rome named Constantine. He killed his own wife and son by boiling them in oil. He also killed his father in law, brother in law and "many others" according to a chronicler. His first wife Minervina, a priestess of the moon goddess Minervina, mysteriously disappeared. No one knows what became of her. Soon after he killed Crispus, his son by the vanished Minervina, and also his second wife Fausta, whom he accused of having an affair with Crispus.

Finally the Priests of Rome, who worshiped the Sun God, Mithra, came to him and said, Constantine, you are such an evil man, even though you are Emperor, you cannot go to heaven. Sorry, but Mithra isn't going to forgive you your sins.

Constantine had heard of a religion going around that was started by a man named Paul. It was called "Christianity" and it taught that no matter what you had done in your life you need only be baptized and you would attain forgiveness. He threw out the Mithratic Priests at once and converted all of Rome to Christianity. He kept a Christian priest at his bedside at all times, with strict orders to baptize him upon his death bed. He happily continued upon his sinful ways.

As Roman, he did not believe that Jesus was the son of the Jewish God Yahweh. He believed that Jesus was the son of Mithra, his old God!

The Roman writers of the bible he appointed even slip this in during the crucifixion scene. The Roman that pierces his side is suddenly converted when the sun goes dark and refuses to shine. Then he cries "Truly this was she son of God!" Mithra, was the Roman Sun God.

Like most fourth Century Councils, the Council of Nicea was rigged. For 300 years previous Jesus was believed to be a human King by Christian Orthadoxy; but Constantine made sure his appointed "trinity" minority declaired Jesus God before the monotheistic majority could even reach Nicea.

Ten years later Jesus was back to human status at the Council at Tyre. He remained human for three years. Then the councils at Antioch Sardica and Sirminum restored him back to being God.

Then, The council of Rimini in 360 took away his God status and again made him human. The final dicision of Jesus-is-God took place at the council of Constantinople in 380, when he was declaired God at the same time Emperor Theodosius made it illegal to argue with the Church, and outlawed all mythologies but his own.

And there it has stayed ever since.
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2006, 20:13:55 »

For the most part, Leyla, you are correct.  Constantine was NOT a Christian throughout his life, although he was baptized upon his deathbed.  His bedside conversion should be a huge clue as to the major loop-hole that Christianity contains, i.e., no matter what you do, as long as you convert, even on your deathbed, you are SAVED.

Constantine pretty much sat back during these councils and let the various Christian Bishops, representing quite a few very different positions on Christian Doctrine, hash everything out.  But he was shrewd enough to see that in order to get EVERYONE to follow HIM, he needed a religion/God that would appeal to ALL of the masses involved.  It is recorded that he did want to include Mithraism into the tenets of Christianity, such as the Dec 24 birthday of the son of the god, as well as the official day of worship to be what became 'SUN-DAY'.  There were also a few Mithraic/Roman festivals that he had worked into the scheme.  Now at some point he did tire of the never-ending debates between the Christian Bishops and did call a halt to the discussions...at that point it did concretize to a certain extent, but the other dissenting sects just went out on their own and survived as best as they could as heretics.

The ultimate development of Christianity, however, was not an overnight thing.
Quote from: Leyla
...And there it has stayed ever since.
 Only until the Reformation and the Enlightenment.  In addition to the development of Protestantism, Catholic Christianity did go through a more academic phase which revamped its spiritual tenets which we find with St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila.  These 'mystics' were sanctioned by the Church, and allowed a lot of latitude in their interpretation of scripture, albeit that they were sequestered within monestary walls, where 'biblical symbolism' was allowed to take presendence over a literal understanding. Unfortunately, most of this revamping never reached the masses on any great scale.  

Today, there are so many branches of Christianity that many Christians are totally clueless of what other Christians believe, and in order to avoid standing up against other Christians, the majority allow for fundamental extremists to speak for everyone.  We are seeing this same thing within Islam now...

IMHO, I think the biggest obstacle that Christianity is facing, because of its immature belief in fantastical fictional stories, is that Jesus was made the same as God in their doctrine.  As I introduce my research to different kinds of people, and they hear me explain how Jesus was a fictional character, the first question that some people ask me is:  "Well, do you not believe in God then?"    

The first few times this happened, I was totally taken aback!!  I always thought that my research would open Christianity up to a more spiritual way of looking at life, both mundane and divine, through the movement from a literal belief to a symbolic understanding..........but.......now I am not quite so sure, or even hopeful at this point.  As Jesus 'goes away' into the category of a fictional character, 'God' and 'divine belief' may well go to the wayside as well...

I cannot be sure of course, but if Christianity experiences a major fall, then 'anarchy' may well be 'loosed upon the earth' by those who believe the absurd idea that Jesus was actually God of the entire Universe.  The best that we can hope for is the simultaneous evolution of a more Rational World to be there to maintain rational control...

~Beth
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Ryuji
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2006, 07:57:35 »

beth + lelay ==  shocked

hehehe

anywhays, where does the deciding on the selection of the bible canon then fits in and the Gnosis people ?

Blessings and Peace
Ryu
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2006, 08:52:48 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbpointsofview/F1951566?thread=1125576

this is a good discussion on Nicea.
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2006, 09:18:49 »

Donal. thanks was interisting from that heres something

Flat  Earth in the Bible?
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Flat_Earth.htm

Blessings,
ryu
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2006, 10:51:38 »

I watched a program saying there was a good possibility that jesus's ma was raped.
Anyone hear of this?Huh??

ubiqer
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2006, 13:37:33 »

Just another attempt to explain one of the claims that a literal reading of the bible makes.  

My advice:  Pay no attention to that stuff...

Peace,
Beth
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2006, 02:31:36 »

Beth

When I said "And there it has stayed ever since" I specifically meant the belief that Jesus is God. The churches may disagree with one another violently, but that point they all believe.

Quote
As I introduce my research to different kinds of people, and they hear me explain how Jesus was a fictional character, the first question that some people ask me is: "Well, do you not believe in God then?"
The first few times this happened, I was totally taken aback!! I always thought that my research would open Christianity up to a more spiritual way of looking at life.


Yes, I am going through this now, with someone on this board. I was sharing my research, which I thought was interesting and would be welcomed. After all, it came from a Strongs Bible Dictionary, the same one they use in Christian Universities.  

Instead the person claimed to be "personally victimized" by the information (Huh) and wrote God had abandoned me and I was doomed to live a life of misery and suffering.  rolleyes

I think that this comes from the belief they have the "One True Faith." All other religions are "False." If Christianity isn't real, then nothing is real.

So, when Christian beliefs are disproved (which is not hard to do) they break down in to a psychological crisis and start thinking there is no God.
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2006, 03:47:34 »

Leyla,

I personally understand how difficult it is to get Christians to think outside of their well established doctrines long enough to see how irrational their beliefs are.  I also understand 'that tremendous need' to 'make people see' what is so clearly right before all our eyes.  But I am learning that humans have to learn to crawl before they can stand up on their own, and they must be able to stand up on their own before they can walk.  Extend this metaphor to 'rational thinking'.  

And you are right Leyla, it is becoming easier and easier to disassemble the biblical narratives to show that they are not what they have been held to be for so many centuries.  These proofs are coming from many different places, in many different ways, so a great deal of time and patience will be required of us all.  Personally, it has taken me many years and a great deal of academic study to figure out all that I have, and there is still a great deal that I do not as yet understand.

IMHO, every Christian should be required to own a copy of Strong's and be required to study it in detail!!! :reading:  That, in and of itself would change a lot of things, but even then it would not happen overnight.  

I am interested to know what your research entails...give me a thread and I can read up on it, or you can summarize here...

Thanks,
Beth
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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 03:56:23 »

Well, there are chuncks of it on the Volcano thread, which has now been locked because one person feels victimized. All I did was quote Bible verses and Strongs.  

I asked him to stop reading the thread since it was upsetting him so badly, but he would not and has ruined it for the rest of us.
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2006, 04:09:24 »

Welllll....I would have to disagree with your volcano theory, on the grounds that I do not take the biblical narratives as literal accounts...of virtually all of its claims.  

I have found that the bible is full of metaphors, symbols, allegories, similies, allusions, etc., and through a study of both the Greek and Semitic languages, as well as some Latin, that the meanings of all of these things can be determined to be quite different than the narrative stories reveal; I am finding a very different understanding of scripture in doing so.  

As for the quotations you used to support your theory, several of them, I think are referring to the Logos, or 'Reason', oftentimes described as the 'element of fire' and also known as the 'Mind of God'.

But that's just my two-cents worth...

~Beth
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2006, 04:21:14 »

p.s.  If it is Mustardseed that is being so offended, well, all I can say Leyla, is he can be a really 'tough nut' but he has also really come a long way over the past few years!  Like I said, it will take time Leyla...and A LOT of PATIENCE....

p.s.s. .....hey mustardseed !!! :flowers: how's it going?  Are you back to causing 'astral angst' again Huh?  :naughty:   :heartsmile:
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2006, 04:26:43 »

Well, I did suggest to the group to lay off of him, because I know learning new things must be very painful to him, it is flying in the face of what he has always belived.

It's clear from the text that this is a real life physical mountain they are talking about. Not a symbolic or figurative one. Bible scholars have postulated for years the location of this original "mount of god;"so we know it is not a mystical metaphor.

Borrowed from paker7 http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Archaeology/eden.htm

“The Biblical word gan (as in Gan Eden) means `walled garden,’ ” Rohl continues, "and the valley is indeed walled in by towering mountains." The highest of these is Mt. Sahand, a snow-capped extinct volcano that Rohl identifies as the Prophet Ezekiel’s Mountain of God, where the Lord resides among `red-hot coals’ (Ezekiel 28:11-19). Cascading down the once-fiery mountain, precisely echoing Ezekiel, is a small river, the Adji Chay (the name of which also translates in local dialect as ‘walled garden’). The locals still hold the mountain sacred, Rohl says, and attribute magical powers to the river’s water.

Consider the very primitive mind set of the people who wrote the Old Testamant. They were the same as the modern Fundamentalist Moslems you see on the news, shooting off guns and dancing in dirt streets.

They didn't write the Old Testamant as any kind of "mystical metaphore." In there minds these writings were "Gods Truth," the only truth, and they would have you stoned to death for suggesting otherwise.

I think the "mystical metaphore" theory is a way for modern Christians to escape all the blood, gore and clearly immoral actions attributed to God in the Bible.

It is so much easier to think it wasn't meant to be taken literally, and that none of the butchery really happened, when in fact, it was written to be taken literally, and the butchery was real.
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2006, 04:36:03 »

Also, the two chunks of Quotes at the beginning of this post were borrowed from me. (Contradictions in the ressurection/burial story, and Jesus says he wasn't God)
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2006, 07:10:16 »

Leyla
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Also, the two chunks of Quotes at the beginning of this post were borrowed from me. (Contradictions in the ressurection/burial story, and Jesus says he wasn't God)


i am sure you dont mind Smiley)

umm just stay with contridicitons related if possible here  cool

apart from the Quran i havn't had the time this week to find more on other religions.

Peace and Love
Ryu

~You are your only limit.
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Leyla
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2006, 06:05:48 »

No I don't mind, you refrenced me and gave me credit.  I was just answering Beths question.
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Beth: I am interested to know what your research entails...give me a thread and I can read up on it, or you can summarize here...


(I had already summarized here. She must have just must have missed it.)
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2006, 12:31:27 »

Beth/Leyla is there any place where i can read up on council of Nicea the voting account and the doings of Emperor Constantine's.

did the rabi's then do magick or and kabbalah which seems very hebrewish.
 

Thanks,
Ryu
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2006, 13:41:50 »

Dear Ryu,

There is a good general place you can go that you can search almost any topic pertaining to the ancient doings of Christianity:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

You won't find everything that you may be looking for in there, but you can search by most any topic, e.g., Councils, or specifically Nicea, Church Fathers, Mithraism, Easter, or any person such as Constantine, Clement, Jerome, Augustine, Origin, etc.  

It is a very valuable resource for these topics...and be sure to follow any other links that an article may provide.

As far as magic and kaballah, yes, the ancients (not just rabbis) practiced many kinds of magic, mainly due to the fact that their belief systems were full of superstitions that allowed for that kind of thing, as well as experimenting into those powers that surround us that are not superstitious.  The formal Kabbalah did not form until the medieval period, and this was certainly within the ranks of Jewish Rabbi's by then, but the name itself means 'tradition' so they no doubt kept alive a lot things that the ancients had studied and practiced, albeit that they updated it to medieval world thought.

Go to: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp  and again, search most any topic, e.g., magic, Kabbalah, superstition, etc.
 
And when searching for these topics, any .edu site is pretty reliable because they have been required to do their homework...

That is not to say that other sites are not informative, just be careful until you can verify certain claims with reputable back-up data or you may be lead astray. Verifiable resources are 'outside of the bible ancient written sources' so be sure to check any and all footnotes provided.  If there is no backup supporting documentation, then it may well be just a conjecture made by someone without any supporting information....and A LOT of wild conjectures are being made all the time...

Happy Hunting!!
Beth
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2006, 14:45:15 »

Any good college library would have information on the Nicene(Nicean?) council, although when I was in college it was in the restricted section.  Besides the above lookups you can also look up the Arian Heresy, and Irenaus.  (He was one of the bishops involved in the forming of catholic (ancient christian) policy.
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