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Author Topic: Is astral projection witchcraft?  (Read 16022 times)
zorgblar
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« on: September 09, 2007, 22:58:44 »

Because if it is that could send you to hell.
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2007, 23:18:08 »

Interesting observation, but not entirely new wink. Let me first ask you, on what you support that notion, and what you define as Witchcraft
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2007, 23:18:08 »

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zorgblar
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2007, 23:24:24 »

Because it not in the bible.Know were in the bible does it say you should astral project.
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zorgblar
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2007, 23:28:02 »

I posted this because i want to astral project but i don't want to go against god.I'm a Christian by the way.
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2007, 23:31:31 »

haha dont listen to the bible... seriously. And there is no such thing as hell not a real one anyone only self created ones, these are called "hollow heavens" and "hollow hells" they're in the astral... People with belief systems that say "if you this and this and this you are going to a fiery hell and be tortured forever" wind up in those places because thats how they think. The astral is all thought based...

The bible does and doesnt say a lot of things in actuality religions such as hindu and buddishm come a lot closer to the truth (although the bible does have some great spiritual truths) the bible and christianity bastardises them. Its not the be all and end all and its certainly not the absolute truth. No one religion is... The truth is far greater than that.
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2007, 00:47:45 »

Because it not in the bible.Know were in the bible does it say you should astral project.

The bible also does not say if it is okay to poop and pee in a toilet either, but I bet you do that without worrying about going to some made up hell.

 rolleyes
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2007, 23:55:49 »

actually, you can find ( in fact i think even here) information about astral projection or similar practices mentioned in the bible, there's nothing evil about it. And also, there is nothing wrong in following the bible if you wish to do so, but i think God would like it  even more for you to make your own decisions and conclusions, and to ponder a bit what the bible really has to say instead of accepting explanations offered to you by the church or anyone else  grin
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2007, 08:44:48 »

Why does God invent things for us not to do?

Witchcraft was actually women practicing with the use of psychedelic substances. Mushrooms and DMT have been claimed to reveal dimensions that are beyond are physical universe. Mushrooms in particular to reconnect the individual to the 'mind of nature'. Double-blind (meaning neither experimenter nor participant knew what they are taking) studies showed that people who experienced mushrooms claimed they had been enlightened and their life would never be the same. At the time of witches, anyone using some inner guidance rather than listening to the teaching of the church was a heretic. Times were different back then. So they started burning many women because it threatened the Christian faith. The reason they stopped was because the men started to realise their sexual appetites were being threatened as well.

I see any religion saying that astral projection is the work of the devil to be similar. "Don't look inward!"
Project away my friend, it will only bring you closer to him.

If it is the devil's lare then I guess you could call those of us that do AP, soldiers. We're going in to fight, not living in fear of him.

-AM
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2007, 13:08:15 »

nice ending Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2007, 14:53:42 »

Im afraid I don't subscribe to beliefs in 'hell' or 'satan' and I would take anything you read in the bible with a pinch of salt. It was written by men, a lot of men, over a wide period of time and subject to many translations.. from greek to latin to english.

This has resulted in many errors. One example: did you know that in the earliest greek versions of the bible we have, sinners dont actually go to hell for 'eternity'. Actually, in the earliest greek version, they go there for an 'Aeon'. An aeon in Greek is a varying but finite period of time, usually around 1000 years.

However in the English translations, this became 'eternity'. A tiny word change, with massive implications for believers (of which I'm not one so its all rather academic as far as I'm concerned.. but still interesting).

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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2007, 19:31:04 »

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Witchcraft was actually women practicing with the use of psychedelic substances.

Umm..not quite. Witchcraft is typically lumped into two categories, polarities of each other. It was a practice of using/worshipping nature in terms of herbs and plants as well as astronomical/seasonal changes.

The one group practiced for the benefit of others (as in midwives, healers, etc). The other group was supposed to use their knowledge for malevent ends (demons, hexes and so forth). Energy use was also attributed to their practices if I remember correctly, albeit not to the extent that yoga, tai chi or other energy based systems use.

The use of psychedelic substances may have been among their practice, but that was only one small aspect of it.
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Mez
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2007, 02:15:16 »

lol@witches getting high

soz just had to add that.
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2007, 02:29:40 »

Their relationship with the plants and unique knowledge or understanding of nature stemmed down from visions. The visionary experiences were provided by natural hallucinegens. This is where the religion began.

It was a practice of using/worshipping nature in terms of herbs and plants.

The use of psychedelic substances may have been among their practice, but that was only one small aspect of it.

It seems like it's the heart of your definition, how can you conclude it is a small aspect? What is withcraft without psychedelic substances? If it was only herbs and spices then they'd be cooks or botanists, not witches.

-AM
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2007, 14:04:14 »

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Their relationship with the plants and unique knowledge or understanding of nature stemmed down from visions. The visionary experiences were provided by natural hallucinegens. This is where the religion began.

I had to do some research on this for a school project years and years ago, so it is quite possible I've forgotten this. But I honestly don't remember ever reading a link between witchcraft and hallucinegens. My understanding is that witchcraft was formed from pagan beliefs worshipping the earth and nature. I'll concede that hallucinegens were probably used to some extent. Many native peoples the world over have done similar things. However, I've never read that as being the core of their practice or that it was done with any type of regularity.

I did a few quick searches this morning after reading your post (several on Encyclopedia Brittanica's site) and not a single mention was made regarding drugs. Quite a bit was written about herbs, potions, amulets, etc, which most people associate to it.

As for gaining their knowledge, I would expect that they learned what the herbs did through trial and error as well as learning from others. Just like scientists create new medicines through trial and error. They build on what they know and try new stuff out to see what works and how it works. Again, I could be wrong, but that was what I understood.

Can you tell me where you read this? I'm a bit curious now.

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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 02:30:14 »

Many different groups have had use of psychedelics throughout history. Native Americans, Egyptians, Mayans, Aboriginals, practically any group associated with shamanism. Now the common link between all these groups is their relationship to nature compared to other cultures. It's as if the plant that carry psychoactive compounds somehow act as a medium or bridge, in communicating with the mind of nature. Whether this is a reality or not I'm unsure but groups that use hallucinogens in their culture, typically display a high level of social cohesion and partnership between each other and nature. Groups that don't generally display a more 'dominator' type of society. Increase your capital is the name of the game. Every man for himself.

Psychedelics, dissociatives, and deliriants have a long history of use within medicinal and religious traditions around the world. They are used in shamanic forms of ritual healing and divination, in initiation rites, and in the religious rituals of syncretistic movements such as União do Vegetal, Santo Daime, and the Native American Church. When used in religious practice, psychedelic drugs, as well as other substances like tobacco, are referred to as entheogens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen

Now this relationship seen in a contemporary culture was during the Hippie Movement in the 1960's. They bound together as one and put a lot of pressure on the government to reintroduce human values into the political agenda (rather than just economics) and had a strong emphasis on nature. 'Tree Huggers'. Now ask yourself why psychedelics were outlawed.

Yet the most popular, and at the same time most stigmatized, use of psychedelics in Western culture has been associated with the search for direct religious experience, enhanced creativity, personal development, and "mind expansion". The use of psychedelic drugs was a major element of the 1960s counterculture, where it became associated with various political movements and a general atmosphere of rebellion and strife between generations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen

Novice - " did a few quick searches this morning after reading your post (several on Encyclopedia Brittanica's site) and not a single mention was made regarding drugs"

Now to redefine the use of the word drug I'll take an extract from a book written by Terrence Mckenna called "The Archaic Revival"

"'Drug' is a red flag word. We are hysterical over the subject of drugs. Our whole society seems to be dissolving under the onslaught of criminally syndicated drug distribution systems. What we are going to have to do if we are to come to terms with this is to become a little more sophisticated in our definitions. I believe that what we really object to about 'drugs' is that we are alarmed by unexamined, obsessive, self destructive behaviour. When we see someone acting this way we draw back. That is what addiction to a drug such as cocaine or morphine results in. However, psychedelics actually break habits and patterns of thought. They cause the individual to inspect the structures of their lives and make judgements about them. Now, what psychedelics share with 'drugs', is that they are physical compounds, often pressed into pills, and you do put them in your body. But I believe that a reasonable definition of the word drugs would have pscilocybin legalized and television outlawed!

Examples of how psychedelics are used in psychology to break patterns of thought

"Starting in the mid-20th century, psychedelic drugs have been the object of extensive attention in the Western world. They have been and are being explored as potential therapeutic agents in treating depression, Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, Obsessive-compulsive Disorder, alcoholism, opioid addiction, cluster headaches, and other ailments. Early military research focused on their use as incapacitating agents. Intelligence agencies tested these drugs in the hope that they would provide an effective means of interrogation, with little success." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen

Now back to the use of psychedelics in witchcraft I'll refer again to The Archaic Revival.

"The problem with Christianity is that it's the single most reactionary force in human history. I don't even know what's in second place, it's so far in front. And I believe the destruction of paganism was probably the greatest disservice to the evolution of the human psyche that has ever been done. The repression of withcraft is really the repression of botanical knowledge, of shamanism. So I see Christianity as part of this paternalistic shell game."..

...."The late Medieval church that conducted the great witch burnings was very concerned that all credit for episodes of magic and derangement should be given to the devil - hence, the church suppressed knowledge of plants such as datura, deadly nightshade and monkshood and the role that they were playing in the nocturnal gatherings and activities of the practitioners of the craft. After all, we cannot have a devil who is such a diminished figure that he must rely on the mere work of herbs to do his wiles. The devil must be a worthy foe of the Christos, and hence nearly coequal."


Website on the use of psychoactive herbs in witchcraft http://hempbc.com/articles/78.html

Whether they were at the heart of witchcraft or not is debateable, although I still think it's what defines it. The herbs are psychoactive. The reason however that I initially took interest in it is because it seems to be of importance in the modern context. Man needs his mind reconnected with nature. Simply making hallucinogens illegal and maintaining that they are 'bad' as a culturally driven assumption,  gives us no understanding of their true nature. Were the hippies evil? 'The summer of love'. Have you heard the song by John Lennon - Imagine? There's something very interesting about the role that psychedelics play in human psychology. Unfortunately it seems to have fallen victim to social control. Who's in charge here?

-AM
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 12:05:08 »

hehe....I used the word 'drugs' because I got tired of writing out psychodelics and hallucinegens. But I agree that I don't like it for ambiguity reasons. I had a fleeting thought that would cause problems, but was tired and wanted to get my thoughts down quickly. So concede everything related to that word!  grin

Well aware of the history of peyote and other similar substances used the world over. I think there are several differences between what was used and the way it was used by these people and what happened in the 60's and 70's. I think the native people use the drug (using the word purely for brevity here, nothing more) in a structured, disciplined setting. There is guidance in it's use. Their are precautions to make sure it is done safely. Again, I've never done this, it's just what I understand based on what I've read.

The hippies, however, used it more as a form of escapism. Yes, there was interest in 'freeing the mind' but it was done in conditions that were more geared to physical/instant gratification. I think it was a situation of the blind leading the blind. I think that's when the abuse of the drugs became mainstream, but this is just a thought of mine -- nothing I read about.

Regardless of the history of these uses throughout history, I have always been of the opinion that they not only are not necessary to achieve the goals for which they are used, but I think they are counterproductive to it. I think anything that muddles the mind makes it difficult to impossible to experience things with a clear awareness. And that, for me, is the goal of all of this. Again, these are just my thoughts on it and many here disagree. I know many use/have used drugs to 'jump start' their experiences. I simply think that this is a short-cut to take along the path and dependending upon how much 'jump-starting' you do, could actually hamper your ability to do this without drugs.  All of this is my opinion, of course.   wink
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2007, 07:26:53 »

i hope you dont mind if i just cut in here and say... on the subject of "jump starting" i went through an experimental phase with binaural beats and it was pretty neat but one of the settings (on i-doser) was peyote! When i did that dose the only thing i could say was "its so strange, i cant describe it"... I just felt this bizzare oneness. Totaly indescribable... but i do agree that "drugs" are counterproductive in the long run.
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2007, 03:13:41 »

That's that general attitude sold to us by our culture, "drugs are counterproductive". We don't say much when it comes to alchohol tobacco and coffee though. Tobacco and alchohol individually kill more people each year than all other recreational drugs combined. Liver cancer, tongue cancer, lung etc. I don't think drugs are understood enough really to be making conclusions. Amphetamine, aka 'speed', is sold by pharmaceutical companies to children with ADHD. Cocaine is used in pills to assist with migraines. I've already stated the psychological interventions of some of the hallucinogens. As I also quoted 'drug is a red flag word'. The problem with drugs is abuse, not the drug itself. The reason we blame the drug is because we're too immature to accept responsibility for our own self-inflicted bad habits.

These substances really needed to be tested by intelligent people experientially. That way we might have a better description than "whoa man last night I was wasted yeah!". We're really not getting anywhere like that, especially with naturally occurring consciousness altering substances. That's exactly what they do, alter consciousness.. I think natural substances need the most attention. I suppose the radical idea I'm advocating here is that these plants haven't simply evolved to keep the soil from eroding.

-AM
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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2007, 05:33:59 »

haha dont listen to the bible... seriously. And there is no such thing as hell not a real one anyone only self created ones, these are called "hollow heavens" and "hollow hells" they're in the astral... People with belief systems that say "if you this and this and this you are going to a fiery hell and be tortured forever" wind up in those places because thats how they think. The astral is all thought based...

The bible does and doesnt say a lot of things in actuality religions such as hindu and buddishm come a lot closer to the truth (although the bible does have some great spiritual truths) the bible and christianity bastardises them. Its not the be all and end all and its certainly not the absolute truth. No one religion is... The truth is far greater than that.

I have a question, what do you suppose it the truth? I agree that there is no one correct religion i believe that there are aspects in every religion that represent an aspect of the will of the creator. For example becoming one with the universe/the first cause/ reaching nirvana all parallel with establishing a personal relationship with God and accepting the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2007, 14:26:31 »

Quote
The problem with drugs is abuse, not the drug itself. The reason we blame the drug is because we're too immature to accept responsibility for our own self-inflicted bad habits.

I agree. Our society has pathetically become an enabler. Nothing is ever your fault. The blame always lay somewhere else. Self-control is a serious issue today. I think a large part of that is the sensory-overloaded environment in which we live, bundled with the lack of responsibility inherent in our culture.  What happened to the days when people held to the saying "the buck stops here?"

Of course, all of this exists in our current age of 'immediate gratification'. People have become so used to getting what they want, when they want it, they don't have an appreciation for patience and waiting. They don't really understand what it means to work at something to achieve it. There's a sense of satisfaction in doing something well and worthwhile that is lacking in most people's lives.

Sorry, I digress a bit off-topic. Many will probably take issue with this, and that's fine.These are only my opinions so you are free to agree or disagree.

As for alcohol and tobacoo, I actually consider then to be drugs as well. For the most part, I simply don't take anything. I've never done drugs, never smoked and my alcohol intake is limited to a glass of wine with dinner a few times/year. If I need anything, I use vitamins and herbs (feverfew is wonderful for migraines by the way, and a bunch of vitamin C taken at the first signs of a cold tend to eliminate the cold).

Quote
I think natural substances need the most attention. I suppose the radical idea I'm advocating here is that these plants haven't simply evolved to keep the soil from eroding.

As I mentioned in my last post, I think 'serious-minded' individuals who need to 'jump-start' their experiences turn to drugs. And I can understand their rationale. Some people need that bit of help. I only caution on becoming reliant on the help, because I think that road leads to dependence and abuse. If you need to use it, do it once or twice, but then work on achieving results without them. I, personally, value independence. Anytime I feel the need to say or think "man, I need..." whatever it is, that raises a flag in my mind. At that point, I simply stop using whatever it is. Hence, I haven't had any caffeine in over 4 years.

Regardless, as I've mentioned, you are not alone here on this viewpoint. Many people advocate the use of drugs for these purposes. I don't chime in vary often because I think I tend to be in the minority, but as we came to the topic in a round-about way, I went ahead with my views on this topic.

If you take drugs and they work for you, that's great (and I mean that). Just make sure they don't ruin what you've accomplished would be my only warning.

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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2007, 17:31:48 »

Most people will deem something evil if they don't understand it.
I say don't worry too much about it. Its mentioned in the bible and many other ancient sacred texts.

-Andrew
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2007, 19:01:03 »

Well, I read in Bible about out of body travel, Conrintios II, chapter 12.
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« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2007, 22:47:07 »

It seems that the question comes from a person that has a christian faith, so I will reply quoting the christian doctrine.

But first a little intro.

I followed a pentecostal evangelical community in my city for 4 years, studying and meditating the Bible, doing small evangelizations around my city and also helping to distribute free Bibles (those from Gideons... you know?), usually receiving in reply many laughs from people.

I left this christian group because in the last year I gradually opened my eyes, and saw that the most of them were just hypocrite and mad people (that kind of people that sing church songs loud while waiting for food at McDonald's...!!!!! And also say everywhere, everytime, whatever the pastor says, "amen! amen! amen!", but don't even know what "turning the other cheek" is...!!!), and that I also was beginning to become that way.

If you choose to follow the Bible, then astral projection is an occult practice, and as all occult practices, should not be practiced.

At least your priest/pastor will say to you that astral projection takes its base theory from other religions that is not christianity, so those spiritual revelations don't come from Jesus, they come from Satan indeed.

They believe that dealing with spiritual things without the enlightment and the guide of Jesus puts you into Satan's territory, so buddhists, hinduists, muslims and so on, all received their sacred books from Satan, and are all satanists for them.

And they say so, because the Bible speaks this way.

When Jesus says, at 1John 2:23 - who doesn't know the Son, doesn't know the Father, he's practically saying something like "man, there are so many religions on the Earth today, but all those who follow them are just morons, because only my way is -The Way-, they just follow Satan's illusions."

They will also say to you that out-of-body experiences like those from Daniel or Paul or John in the Apocalipse happened because God wanted to make them happen, and not because they researched for them to happen with their will.

My own and personal experience is that christianity is one of the best methods to keep people caged into fear and shame, so that they are passive and vulnerable, and will never discover the power hidden in themselves and into the super-natural in general.

Be careful!!! Astral projections will bring you to hell!!! (aahahahahahah)
But also...
Be careful!!! Christianity will bring you into a madhouse!!! (aaahahahhaaah x 1000)

So... what will you choose?
The choice is up to you.
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2007, 03:30:21 »

Under common law anything that isnt prohibited is permitted, people who interpret the bible and jesus's teachings interpret the bible using the inverse of this principle. Thefore if it is not permitted it is prohibited hence their "close-mindedness". So if astral projection isnt "advocated" in the bible then as far as their concerned it is not to be practised. IMHO their view is extremely flawed... in the bible jesus taught ressurection therefore because reincarnation isnt in the bible it is prohibited by the christian faith... but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist now does it? Krishna taught reincarnation (before jesus's time) but that doesnt that ressurection doesnt also exist! In summary if you interpret the bible the way most christians do then astral projection is indeed prohibited, if you however you are more free thinking then astral projection is just another thing god created for you to do. So why not do it?
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2007, 06:32:09 »

Then what we're really left with is whether the Christian faith is 'the faith' or not, which ingnites an entirely different debate.

-AM
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