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Author Topic: Is evil a thing in it's own right, or is it merely the absence of good?  (Read 4687 times)
KarmicBeats
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« on: October 12, 2012, 21:19:27 »

This is an interesting question.  If God is all good and God is everything how can there be evil?  If evil is a thing that is not God then God is not everything.

However if evil is merely the absence of good then God could be all good and God could be everything.

Just interested in what people have to say about this interesting philosophical question.
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 23:05:36 »

This is an interesting question.  If God is all good and God is everything how can there be evil?  If evil is a thing that is not God then God is not everything.

However if evil is merely the absence of good then God could be all good and God could be everything.

Just interested in what people have to say about this interesting philosophical question.
First the concepts of good and evil aren't like light and dark.   Evil isn't the absence of good.  Evil is a subjective, moral/ethical choice one makes.
Now... As for god, who says god is all good?   I'd say god is more neutral than anything.   Assuming I believed in a god to begin with... Which I do not.

Assuming god is that infinite energy of oneness between everything... Then yes, it's good and e il and everything else in existence... Including you and I.   smiley
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 23:05:36 »

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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 23:15:41 »

Hi,
All energies to flow need 2 parts.
All matter to exist needs 2 parts.
All references to exist need a minimum of 2 parts.
Equilibrium itself requires a minimum of 2 subjects.
If God is the good then what makes the anti-God?
If God is everything then God is in equilibrium.
If you are 1, equilibrium cannot exist.
Does God exist?
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 06:46:21 »

If God is neutral then evil is a separate thing and God is composed of equal amounts of good and evil.

If God is all good then evil is merely the absence of good.
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2012, 13:46:36 »

Nietzsche has instructive things to say about this topic I feel in his work, "A Geneology of Morality".

His idea is that the concepts of "good and evil" are fairly newly developed in our history; you have the concept of the "Good" in Greek classical society, which Plato talks about as the supreme goal and what all things are seeking to imitate; it sort of equates to "best" or "most perfect" for the Greeks; for another society, the Jews, "Good" was whatever was in line with God's laws.

Conversely, these societies and pretty much all the others like them don't really have so much a concept of "Evil" as such. For a Greek, you could fail to be perfect of course, and everyone failed to be like the goal of the "Good" to some degree, but that just meant you were simply "less good"; for a Jew, you could fail to meet God's commandments, but that was the nature of your failing, that you hadn't followed God's law to the letter, not that you had succumbed to intrinsic evil.

The change in these concepts happened along the time of the middle ages, for social reasons. For instance, there were terms of German social status which reflected your value in society: well to do people were "good" (or noble as we would say), indicating they had more worth; lesser classes were "bad", meaning of less value (bad similar in the sense that bread may go bad, or decompose and thus devalue).

The application of Christianity at this time had a major change on those concepts; early Christianity was extremely concerned with social welfare, and making sure that all people had what they needed to get by (recalls Jesus' response when asked what the most important commandment, or rule to follow was, and time and time again he said it was "love thy neighbor", or that the thing which most displeased God was forgetting to help someone in need). People began to consider that perhaps those of noble birth were not of intrinsicly more worth, if they were not using their wealth to help others, and that even if you were of a "bad" social class, you might be of more worth to God. Slowly the idea of low social class, or "bad" began to transform into the concept of "Good" (blessed be the poor in spirit), and noble or the old concept of good as worth actually became "Evil".

So Nietzsche is basically saying that the concepts of Good and Evil were instituted in the middle ages as a method for the lower classes to seize power, by declaring themselves of more intrinsic value through their aparent righteousness.

I think that there might be some truth to this; it might be interesting to note that whenever people talk about the concept of Good and Evil, they always declare themselves on the side of Good by default; you should really question anytime people bring up the concepts what agenda they pursuing, because generally these terms are used to stir up emotions in people, by declaring what the arguer desires as good and what they opose as evil.
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KarmicBeats
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 19:30:49 »

I believe that good and evil are quantifiable energies.  Even though they are constructs of consciousness they are part of the evolution of consciousness.

So it makes sense to me that as time goes on we evolve these concepts.

It is interesting to note that many religions have some kind of snake that tempts people into eating some kind of fruit that then frees them from a perfect and ideal life.  According to a video I saw by Joseph Campell many religions except Christianity view it as a release from bondage.

If god were all good could he bring about evil?  Wouldn't an act that creates evil be the most evil act of all?
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2012, 21:56:25 »

Quantifiable things can be measured by defintion; how do you measure good or evil? And if you can't measure them, how do you know they are quantifiable?
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 22:26:54 »

Good, peace plus love.
Evil, corrupt love, sinful desire, violence.

I think that the nature of evil is to destroy, or, to deceive.  Evil wants to hurt, it loves pain, there is no truth or decency in evil hearts.  Most men that I have seen, though they deny God, they still have some good in them.  Their heart isn't a total wasted object.  They still have some kindness and compassion.

Other than that, yeah.  Failure to help a soul in need.  While you might even try to help a soul in need, like a dying dog, and you get it euthanized or by other means, but is that really a good thing?  Sometimes, making the pain go away is part of what brings the chance for happiness.  Good is like pleasure without perversion, a comfortable feeling in the heart, a warm glow to the chest and face.

That's a good point, that God is neutral.  Perhaps God is neutral.  I kind of warped into a small visualization the other night before bed, and it showed my favorite picture of Jesus (image) and he was standing outside of the milky way galaxy, and he said, "Jehovah is unwilling to move."  and then he said, "He is unwilling."  So perhaps God, in his infinite time and unendingness, no beginning and no end, has become tired of tending to people's petty desires.  Perhaps evil then, is only brought on by anger, or, a rejection of what God has already provided.
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2012, 23:34:39 »

Quote
Other than that, yeah.  Failure to help a soul in need.

The Bible says that this is one of the things that displeases God most, actually- this specific thing... so maybe you have hit on something.

I don't necessarily think the Bible has inherent authority, but it is interesting nonetheless.
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2012, 00:14:51 »

There comes a point when you can't physically, mentally, or emotionally help anyone anymore.  Either you are too drained from the constant assistance yourself, or, they continually take advantage of your decency and services.  So at the point where helping someone becomes physical abuse, we have to make the choice to either remove ourselves from the situation, or, find a way to stop the abusive relationship.

So I ask the question... is abuse, general label term 'abuse', a form of evil?
Abuse covers a great deal of territory in 'abusive relationships' of all types.
We have to try and stop the abuse, yet at the same time, intervention can be worse than the abuse itself, leaving families divided and children with broken homes.  That's a whole area of evil that doesn't concern the justice of God.  I don't know about you other people, but for me, the Justice God is one that acts within karma, yet also as a sudden, swift windstorm, as they have put it.  God punishes man and animal alike, and I'm sure that the Holy God has authority to punish even lesser gods, as, Jesus Christ, Satan, or any other which can be effectively named.

Holiness is something which we should never ascribe to men, animals, satyrs, or any created thing.  Jesus said, "There is but one good, who is God."  So the judgement and justice of God is what we should seek, and seek for it continually even long after it has been manifest.
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2012, 06:55:36 »

Hi,
In the Bible, in exodus...
 http://www.openbible.info/topics/moses_building_the_tabernacle
That says it all. No work on the Sabbath or you're put to death. No fires at home?
The lord works in mysterious ways.
Is this example all good or particular to the beliefs back then?
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2012, 08:56:50 »

I would believe the words of the bible a lot more if they weren't written by man.
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2012, 19:52:12 »

Quote
Hi,
In the Bible, in exodus...
 http://www.openbible.info/topics/moses_building_the_tabernacle
That says it all. No work on the Sabbath or you're put to death. No fires at home?
The lord works in mysterious ways.
Is this example all good or particular to the beliefs back then?

Oh, there is worse than that, haha. I remember there is a passage in the oft-overlooked book of "Elisha", which recounts how Elisha called on the help of God to punish the town's children who had called him "baldy". God's response was of course to send a couple she-bears their way to rend them apart.

For reasons I think most can agree, the Bible is obviously not a word for word manual of how to live; to me it is a combination of older pre-Persian and Egyptian prophecies reinterpreted by the Jews, and a record of how they knew it best to love their god and one another- it is the latter that gives it significance as literature to me.
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2012, 23:50:49 »

It would be amazing to be able to read it how it was originally written... yet I wonder how many different religious factions that base their faith on the bible would accept it.
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« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 00:20:02 »

Well there would mostly be ALOT more of it mainly (volume of pages that is) and it would be alot more concerned with social justice, as that was what Jesus cared about really. Most of that was left out when they decided what the cannon of the New Testament would be in the 5th century or so. The New Testament cannon could have very different meanings dependings on what books you place in it.
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« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 00:27:31 »

Such a shame.
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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 00:06:18 »

I thought I put a post on here again, but I look today, and nothing?  Did it get deleted or it didn't go through?
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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 00:40:45 »

I thought I put a post on here again, but I look today, and nothing?  Did it get deleted or it didn't go through?
It must not have gone through for some reason. Was it a new Topic all together or just a reply?
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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2012, 01:11:14 »

It was a marvelous reply!  I wrote it out yesterday, but I can't remember a single word of it to put it back together.  I was on a high energy rush, plus my memory is almost nullified, so I guess it's a lost post.
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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2012, 15:10:39 »

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Such a shame.

I want to say a good number of those books are still available, despite not being thought worthy of the new testament... I will have to look later, haha.
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« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2012, 15:52:15 »

((Here is the post that I tried to make, I woke up a few minutes ago and remembered that it should be on my clipboard thing, and it was.))

For all the verification of biblical history that I possess, I can not say anything about it being accurate.  I believe in it, but am also aware that it teaches 'godliness' and 'thinking ability'.  The Bible has contradictions, presumptions, fallacies, and outright foolishness imbued in it.  Yet, one can see the truth.  One sentenance of the Bible is never enough, as it can not explain life adequately from the standpoint of a worshiper of God.  The Bible is a good friend and a reliable companion, much more suitable to a loving person than filthy porno.  You can notice how sexual things are almost excluded entirely from the Bible.  Due to this, it can not be trusted as the end all, source of all things.  Certainly, God did not create the Bible and then existence, although, that is worthy of philosophical consideration from a philosophical/symbolic point of view.

The Bible contains much good information about God.  Yet the common man, subdued by his addictions and personal godhood in his own rite, he will denounce the Bible itself and all it's truth.  There is much truth in it.  As for it being wrote of man, it is spoken of by some as being 'inspired word', in which 'all scripture is beneficial for teaching'.  You might not see it, and I do not see it often, it takes good weed, but you write a small Bible with every post you make.  Even the objects in your house, where you are looking, your physical appearance to a directly in line observer, and your sensations and thoughts however repressed or subdued, all of this is essentially an inspired event transcended of it's past and progressing into the splendor of a heavenly thing.  Some men could then look at the Bible as being a living testament, yet, without any need of a dingy, chewed down old book.

Certainly, if you do not know what Evil is, then you should do a little more progressive thought on the subject.  If you do not care about evil as long as you have a bag of potatoes, then perhaps you are more righteous than many proclaimed saints.  Yet I will say that Evil denies truth, hates love, and corrupts justice.  Evil is in it's most basic forms, Violence, Lust, and Corruption.  Greed, Perversion... such.  Fear itself is not evil, as fear can be a powerful motivator even on the paranormal level, as with an onrushing dog that feels your sudden shock and horror of it's approach, and it backs away slowly knowing that your fear releases you from all prior assumptions of belief and thoughts of brooding malice.  The Bible itself as a book tells us certain things, yet, as a small child seeing the midnight sky for the first time, we must be free to feel through space and time, find our loved ones, and keep all that we can save clear and free.  Mother Freedom, Father Love, and we are all Christ if we believe in magick, worship, healing, and moreso if we can actually do it.  Prayer to God seems like the answer to many things, and if many people pray for a certain things, God does take that into consideration.  Even if everyone prayed for the same thing, if God would not permit the vibration to intensify, it would not.

Those of us remaining in the modern age who profess and actively seek a relationship with God have much going for us in terms of an open worship and expressions of competence and power.  We are free to strip off our clothes in the woods, and roil in the snow like horses.  We are able to see things beyond the range of physical vision, though this can be developed by magickal discipline.  We can feel things before they happen.  We can feel without feeling anything, we are dead to the flesh yet alive towards God.  God is not a mindless energy form waiting to be molded by a man, but rather, God supplies energy, wisdom, and power, and it is us as worshipers who must honor God, trust in Him, in Her, in Odin, or Zeus, in that little boy with the gun just trying to give his sister peace, in that mother who can not stand her lonliness, and we weep for them all, as we have time and emotional capacity.

You can sit there and believe in something all day long, perhaps it makes a difference.  God is not a tyrant.  God is not mindless.  God has made a sacrament and provision.  Some will find it in their own flesh, others will be able to astral travel, others can phantasy, others can generate materials through projections of visualizations over time.  We must have courage, fear of God teaches true courage, yet if your courage is lacking in power or wisdom, it can be a dreadfall to your spiritual endeavor.  When you learn how to stand up to God, and to defy the stupidity and menace of his untamed, brutal creation, you will see the synchronicity, the symmteries and disfunctions of others.  After a life of putting faith in God, finally, at your spirits last vestige of strength, you have a 'bodily acceptance', and begin to act as both father spirit and mother soul, to your own soul.  Some have accepted it long ago, yet did not possess the knowledge or personal will to manifest healthy life style changes or bodily alterations. 

That's a lot to say.  I hope it helps.  Honor God.  Honor God before any man.  Find your heart of truth and power, submit it to the Holy God, Holy Fire God, Holy Spirit, however you like to term it.  God will increase that truth and power by multiples upon multiples, even as they said, 'myriads'.  God is a God that honors those who honor Him/Her.  That's why I got mad about Xanth saying that God is ridiculous, to such effect.  But really, Xanth could be a strong ally and a worker of powerful magicks, yet, we should seek for the magick of God.  And yes, there are processes and sciences behind things such as storing magick until permeation, yet, this simply follows the course of a purely transcendental / liberation meditation, yet, always is there 'an existence', in which God is either increased, magnified, or shut away and we crush the God within us.  Each of us is also a god, a lesser god, and our own god and not any others.  I must go, thank you.
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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2012, 16:10:03 »

Yes... some of the books not included:

-Book of Enoch, which deals with the amorous affairs of fallen angels, and Enoch's explorations of heaven

-Gospel of Thomas, in which some of the sole accounts of Jesus as a small child are told, where he punishes other children who cross his path

-Book of Tobit, which describes the conquer of Israel by Assyria, and very much demonology and eastern mysticism

-Gospel of Mary Magedelene, which describes Jesus' "special relationship", and secret truths he purportedly only told her

-Book of Susanna, which is basically a romance novel

-Gospel of Judas, which is significantly more gnostic than any of the others, and actually attempts to discredit all of the other gospels

and on and on, to the Book of Jasher, Acts of Solomon, Book of the Lords's wars, etc....
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2012, 19:18:30 »

This is an interesting question.  If God is all good and God is everything how can there be evil?  If evil is a thing that is not God then God is not everything.

However if evil is merely the absence of good then God could be all good and God could be everything.

Just interested in what people have to say about this interesting philosophical question.

Do you truly think that God is anything like man? That it is a personal being existing somewhere in another plane? In the whole of things nothing is good and nothing is evil, things just are. But at a human level both good and evil exist as suffering and joy exist.

God is more akin to a force than a man. Is gravity good or evil or both? It is neither, it just is. Without gravity the universe would fall apart, yet with gravity the universe will eventually collapse on itself and kill us all. Is gravity good or evil?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 19:20:52 by Steel Hawk » Logged
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