Islam (open discussion)

[xander]

Originally posted by Robert Bruce

G'day Folks!

This topic is for the open discussion of things that relate to Islam, but do not fit the theme of 'friendly exploration'

>so I take it we can think critically in this thread and discuss the darker more shadowy aspects of islam and it's associated company?
> ever Read Why I am Not Muslim by Ibn Waraq?

Xander

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:ever Read Why I am Not Muslim by Ibn Waraq?

I have never read the book, but I have heard him speak on television. Most of his criticisms actually had little to do with the religion of Islam themselves but those who use Islam in today's world to the their own agenda. Despite this, he still makes it seem like these people are the representation of Islam.

I am interested in hearing some of his claims about Islam. If you could express them on this board, I'd be happy to attempt to refute them, or at least clear some things up.

One thing that he kept repeating is the 'intolerance' towards the apostates(those who leave Islam) under the Islamic(fundamentalist) government. For example, when the Iranian Sheikh declared a Fatwa to kill Salmon Rushdie because of his book "the Satanic Verses" and his open bashing of Islam. If you've noticed, most of the Muslims who leave Islam and openly insult it and defame it are not born in Muslim countries and do not grow up with the Islamic lifestyle. EVEN in Syria, and other countries which happen to be Muslim but have a Secular government, the people who leave Islam do not come out and  openly defame it and if they come to a Western country they still do not defame like those who are born in Western Countries.

He also says that the verse: "there is no complusion in religion" only applies to Jews in Christians but the Muslims are required to force people who are not from the 'People of the Book' to embrace Islam.
This is not true for the only time the Muslims were allowed to use force was against the idolators of Arabia who had: 1) persecuted the Muslims and their followers for 13 years; 2)Broke their treaties. The proof of this is in the Chapter Taubah where the so called 'Verse of the Sword' was revealed:

" Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers" [9:13]

and also, this warfaree was not even to all the idolators, but for those who had a treaty with the Muslims and did not break the treaties then they were commanded to respect the treaty:

"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. "[9:4]  

And more evidence of this is that Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) told the Muslims to not force the Persians to embrace Islam, although they were idolators; and also the fact that when the Muslims reached India, they did not force the Hindus to embrace Islam but subjected them to Jizya(protection tax) like the other non-Muslims.


And one more note, is that Ibn Warraq is an athiest. He does not completely deny just Islam but completely denies all religions. If Muslims were in power, I am sure he would write a book about "the currupt Christians." It seems to me that he wrote the book simply to make money and for public approval.

[xander]

I've been taking an Islamic Texts class in college. I have come to the conclusion that Islam, much like xianity, contains many followers who don't understand their own religion, they pick and choose the verses they use and twist them into what they want them to mean. Much like xianity, it is not the wise Muslim we hear from, rather it is the moaning and thrashing of extremists such as bin laden.

Since so many hear only the screaming and bitching of fundies it is easy to think that all Muslims are like so adn so. However, we must remember that just as Pat robertson is not the spokesman for all of xianity, bin laden and other fundi muslims are not representative of all of Islam.

Xander

[Lighthouse]

In an attempt to break it down to the basics... my understanding of the topic is thus:

The Muslim religion is based in the Judeo/Christian tradition.

Like the Jewish Tradition, Muslims eat Kosher and reject the images of Christ as Idolatry.

Prayer 5 times a day facing Mecca establishes 5 times a day that the Muslim life is devoted to God.

Also, the name Allah is translated to be something like, "The One and Only, The Eternal" similar to the description of God in Judeo/Christian tradition.

Now I need to get out my book of Islamic Law and Constitution to refresh my memory on the rest.[]

more later

--Lighthouse

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:The Muslim religion is based in the Judeo/Christian tradition.

What do you mean by this? As in it is like the Judeo tradition? Islam is not influenced by any Judeo traditions. It is based on Muhammad's experience and teachings, correct?

[Lighthouse]

Fallnangel,

I menat that they all worship the same God by that statement... and believe in very much the same stories or accounts which were initially described in the Torah, then later the Bible... sorry about the miscommunication, I can see that I didn't exactly express myself very clearly.  

Please visit the following link:
http://www.india-overland.com/exploringislam1.html

Here is an excerpt from that article

"Islam is an ancient religion with profound historical and theological ties to Judaism and Christianity. All three religions worship the same God, acknowledge large parts of the same Bible and revere Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. And, as do Christians, Muslims regard Jesus as the messiah.
In fact, Islam teaches that it represents the modern mainstream of a primordial, monotheistic religion that began with the earliest humans. Over millennia, the religion took form with the early Jewish prophets, was modified significantly by Jesus and finally shaped by Muhammad, the final prophet, who died in 632."


--Lighthouse

[jimbola]

Are the beliefs of Muslims any more valid than those of christians?

[Lighthouse]

I guess that depends upon who you're speaking to.  If you are  Jew, you believe that the Messiah has yet to appear.  If you are a Christian, you believe that the accounts of Christ in the Bible are the only relevent texts and none thereafter.  If you are a Muslim, you believe in the previous accounts plus the accounts of Muhammed.  If you are a Mormon, you believe that in the 1800's there were additional texts found in America that are the final texts after the bible...  The list goes on and on.

--Lighthouse

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:Also, the name Allah is translated to be something like, "The One and Only, The Eternal" similar to the description of God in Judeo/Christian tradition.  

The word Allah literrally means "The God" It is a combination of al(the) and ilaha(god), put together in such a manner that it can not be pluralized.  You might be thinking of the short chapter in the Quran describing very clearly what Muslim believe God to be like:

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him."
[Quran 112:1-4]

quote: Are the beliefs of Muslims any more valid than those of christians?

The Quran has been proven to not have changed at all ever since it was spoken through Muhammad(pbuh). All of his followers memorized the Quran from front to back, down to the sillable, they wrote the Quran on leaves and anything else that they could find before his followers were finally able to compile it into a book. At the time the Quran was revealed there were  10 styles of poetry which the Arabs had spoken. When the Quran was revealed, it took on a new style of its own, completely different from the other styles of poetry, making the Quran impossible to imitate. The Quran challenged the Arabs to make one chapter like the Quran, in style and beauty, but noone has been able to do this to this day. This is besides the fact that the Prophet was illiterate.

The true miracle of Islam is the Quran, which due to its profound wisdom, scientific facts, beautiful poetry, and possibly more that Muslims might not have known yet, it is timeless, and it is meant to last until the Day of Judgement and for all of humanity.

Muslims believe that Muhammad(pbuh) is the last in the line of Prophets which were sent to humanity, which include Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David, etc.(peace be upon them all). The purpose of the messages they had sent were simply to remind their people of God's existence and for them to turn back in worship towards Him.

Muslims reject the idea of Jesus(peace be upon him)as being the Son of God, or the idea of the Holy Trinity. Muslims see Jesus as being a righteous slave of God himself, who walked in the streets like other prophets, and simply sent the same message that they had all sent, to worship One God. Muslims see 'salvation through Jesus Christ' as a form of polytheism in that Muslims see all worship towards God as being direct, and that you need know partners, no priests, no people, or images, to get you closer to God.

 

[Gandalf]

Are the beliefs of Muslims any more valid than those of christians?

Not really the right question to ask. You can't really 'prove' that one religion is any more valid than another. It comes down to personal taste.. that religion is then the most valid *for you*.



What do you mean by this? As in it is like the Judeo tradition? Islam is not influenced by any Judeo traditions. It is based on Muhammad's experience and teachings, correct?


Islam DOES follow on from the Judeo tradition. Islam, like christianity, accepts the Old Testament even if it believes that some of its info has been corrupted. The OT is as much part of Islam as it is part of Christianity.

Someone stated however that they accept Jesus as messiah. This is wrong.
Muslims recognise Jesus as a prophet, not god himself. In this way, the Muslim view of Jesus is the same view as that held by the Jews.

Therefor, Jesus was a prophet, after a long line of prophets. Mohammed is the last prophet in that line and his teachings are the final 'law' for the time being.

We should also remember that even in early Christianity the idea that Jesus was god was disputed and some christians themselves regarded him as a prophet, but the finalised decision to accept him as son of god occured at the Conference of Nicea in 325, presided over by Roman emperor Constantine. In addition, The 'trinity' concept was only formulated a century before (3rd Century AD).
(cf Prof. Robert Turcan : The cults of the Roman empire, 1996).

I don't think therefore that Muslims believe that Jesus ever said that he was the son of god; they believe that this was a later corruption of data, added in later, on purpose or by mistake.

Concerning extremeism. The Koran specifically states that Muslims are to respect other religions and islam is much more tolerent of other religions than chistianity is (in theory); followers of other faiths are not to be forced onto the 'true path'. Therefore in lands that Muslims conquer they usually allow churches/temples of other faiths to continue as before.
for example, in Greece, which was taken over by the Ottomam Turkish empire, Christian churches were by and large preserved, which is why, now that Greece is independant again, all their churches are still intact, Although a few were converted into mosques. cf Byzantium: the Hagia Sophia, ok, not in Greece. The Greek orthadox church still has its HQ in Istanbul, even although the country is muslim. In most cases, Christians were allowed to continue their worship.

A good story I heard in greece is of how the Greeks were aware of the Muslims tolerence for other religions and used this to their adantage; I cant remember which island it was, but when the Greeks heard that the turks were planning to take it, they built churches all over it so that almost ALL free space was taken up by churches!
Then when the Turks took the island, they were bound by their own rules so they couldnt do anything with the land they had taken!
To this day that Greek island has the most churches in one place than anywhere else in Greece!

However, the problem is, many of the midle-eastern countries are being run by fundamentalist regimes who choose to interpret the Koran in a certain way, and to 'forget' obvious things like 'respect other religions'. however Fundamentalist Islam is not a true representation of Islam, just as most normal Christians would not be associated with nutty Christian fundamentalists... you know the types... the ones who actually think it would be a good idea to have a nuclear war in the Middle-east as it would hasten the 'second coming'!!!

You find this with any fundi- religion, christian fundis tend to forget obvious Christ teachings like 'love thy neighbour, thy enemies and so on.
Imagine the US or the UK run by christian fundamentalists.... actually we have had that already with the Puritan Oliver Cromwell.... banning Christmas for example... what a git!

Anyway, thats my limited take on Islam.. not a bad religion.

Douglas


 

[clandestino]

Hi there Douglas,

I'd agree with you that Islam is broadly not a bad religion. However, western society as a whole doesn't share this view... Islam is often presented in a bad light, and there are plenty of valid reasons for the media's take on Islam :

a) The reluctance of muslim immigrant communitites to integrate into western society.
b) An open contempt for western values.
c) The treatment of women within muslim communities.
d) The concept of subservience within Islam.
e) The acceptance of child brides.
f) The occurence of forced marriages and honour killings, more prevalent within Islamic society.
g) The contradictory stance on the value of human life : The quran says "kill no one", yet the Islamic governments choose otherwise.
h) The lack of freedom of speech within Islamic countries.
i) The lack of public condemnation from Muslim leaders re. terrorist offences.

Perhaps this widely held negative view of Islam needs to be addressed, both by muslims and western society.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be inflammatory here; I hope that I have not offended people by what I've written above. I tried to put down what I believe are a few examples of why Islam is seen in a bad light by the West.

One more point !....
 

quote:Therefore in lands that Muslims conquer they usually allow churches/temples of other faiths to continue as before.

Fair enough, they usually do...William Dalrymple's "from the holy mountain" details a lot of destruction of armenian places of worship in Turkey, but I guess that this is a seperate issue from Faith.

..plus, ironically WD's book recounts the days gone by when the muslim & christian faiths lived side by side....perhaps i shouldn't have used it as a counterpoint to your view ! doh !

Mark

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:An open contempt for western values.

I have this contempt also. How can I not have such contempt when it is getting to the point that homosexuality, something forbidden in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism is turning into something acceptable in Western society?  I am not sure about in the Bible, but the Quran states that a whole nation was destroyed mainly because of their indulgence in homosexuality.

quote:The concept of subservience within Islam.

Could u explain what u mean a little further?

 

quote:The treatment of women within muslim communities.

A fact which is completely ignored by the West in these days, is that when Islam came to Arabia, it gave women rights to inheritance, rights to divorce, and many other rights which they did not have before Islam. In places like France and other countries in Europe, women did not get such rights until a couple hundred years ago.

The fact that the Quran states that men are the protectors and maintainers of women is not something which is meant to degrade, but is to present the nature of men and women in a reasonable fashion. Women in essence deal with many problems which men do not deal with. For example women have to face their period every month which i have heard from many girls is very hectic and very painful. Is it right that a woman would have to be put in a position where she would have to work during such a time?? Islam gives women the right to work, the right to the money she makes when she works, but in essence it is the husband's job to provide for the family.

Here are some verses from the Quran from the chapter entitled: "Women" which is basically about women(and their relationship with men):

"O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], and from them both He created many men and women and fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship) . Surely, Allah is Ever an All­Watcher over you. " [Quraan 4:1]

"And give to the women (whom you marry) their Mahr (obligatory bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) with a good heart, but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it, and enjoy it without fear of any harm (as Allah has made it lawful)." [Quraan 4:4]


"There is a share for men and a share for women from what is left by parents and those nearest related, whether, the property be small or large - a legal share. "[Quraan 4:7]



"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr(dowry) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good." [Quraan 4:19]


"And wish not for the things in which Allah has made some of you to excel others. For men there is reward for what they have earned, (and likewise) for women there is reward for what they have earned, and ask Allah of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is Ever All­Knower of everything. "[Quraan 4:32]

"And to everyone, We have appointed heirs of that (property) left by parents and relatives. To those also with whom you have made a pledge (brotherhood), give them their due portion (by Wasiya ­ wills, etc.). Truly, Allah is Ever a Witness over all things."  [Quraan 4:33]



"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill­conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great. " [Quraan 4:34]


And probably what is seen as the most demeaning is the enforcement of hijab(the veil which covers the hair). The Taliban enforced the berka which is not meant to be enforced. Here are the verses about hijab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. " [Quran 33:58]

The wisdom in hijab is that women are not molested and not seen as public property. The phrase 'that they should be known' is said by commentators to be referring to the idea that the believing women should distinguish themselves from the slave-women in Arabia. They should use hijab as a way of saying that they are not public property but that their body is their own business.

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof(the face and the hands); that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. " [Quraan 24:31]



 

quote:
The acceptance of child brides.

It depends what you consider a child bride. If she has already hit the age of puberty she is not considered a child anymore, the same goes for the man.

 

quote:The occurence of forced marriages and honour killings, more prevalent within Islamic society.

Both are forbidden in Islam, but i do agree they are prevalent in the middle east. These practices are very much like old tribal practices which have nothing to do with Islam.

 

quote:
The contradictory stance on the value of human life : The quran says "kill no one", yet the Islamic governments choose otherwise.

the Quran does not exactly say kill noone but allows killing if done under certain circumstances:

"...if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. ..." [Quraan 5:32]

If killing is done for no reason but to rob or to 'spread mischief in the land', it is completely forbidden and is actually punishable by death. Such killing is considered as if one has killed all of humanity. But if the killing is done in self-defense or while Muslims are in state of war with another nation it isnt considered murder:

"Permission is given to those who fight, because they have been wronged, and surely, Allah is Able to give them victory

Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." - For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, Allah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty. " [Quran 22:40-41]

Killing can only be done in course of a just cause(such in cases of law and in war) and in a just manner:

"(describing the conduct of believers)And those who cry not unto any other god along with Allah, nor take the life which Allah hath forbidden save in (course of) justice, nor commit adultery - and whoso doeth this shall pay the penalty(of law);" [Quran 25:68]

I would say that the "Islamic countries" of today have twisted up their values and have completely abondoned Islamic ideals. The truth is that there is not one government that exists today that would be considered a truly Islamic one, and most scholars of Islam have stated this many times. Islamic ways of ruling and government have been abandoned by all the governments of the Muslim people and most Muslims admit to this fact. One of the most heartbreaking ideas that exists to Muslims is the fact that there is not one nation that can represent Islam correctly, while in reality according to Islam the purpose of the khalifah(leader of the Muslim people) and his government is to call others to Islam.

[onefromsomewhereelse]

While Islam does say Jesus is just a prophet, Jesus said He was God; that is why the Jews turned on Him...for blasphemy.
Jesus is either God, or He is a liar.  He can't be just anothr prophet.  Of course, the reserrection proved that He was indeed God.

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:While Islam does say Jesus is just a prophet, Jesus said He was God; that is why the Jews turned on Him...for blasphemy.
Jesus is either God, or He is a liar. He can't be just anothr prophet. Of course, the reserrection proved that He was indeed God.

The Jews of Medina turned on Muhammad(pbuh), but Muhammad forbade his followers to look upon him divinely.

Jesus said he was God???

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven”   (Matthew 7:21)

“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, bore witness of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape”   (John 5:37)

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”  (Mark 10:18)

“And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.”   (John 8:50)

“ Jesus answered them and said, “my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me”  (John 7:16)

“he who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent me”  (John 14:24)

“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak”  (John 12:49)

“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work”  (John 4:34)

“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me”  (John 6:38)

“saying, ‘Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done”  (Luke 22:42)

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me”  (John 5:30)

“I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him”  (John 13:16)

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I”  (John 14:28)

“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me”   (John 8:42)

“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father”  (Matthew 20:23)

“So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me”   (John 7:16)

 
Tell me one place in the Bible where it says for people to worship Jesus.

A rebuttal about Jesus claiming to be God from Answering Christianity.com:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/iam.htm

What the Quran says about Christians and Jesus

"They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. " [Quran 5:17]

"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah(God) is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah(God), my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah(God), for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah(god) save the One Allah(God). If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! "
[Quran 5:72-75]

"Say: O People of the Scripture! Stress not in your religion other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of folk who erred of old and led many astray, and erred from a plain road. " [Quran 5:77]

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. " [Quran 3:59]


"Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). "   [Quran 3:64]

"Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. " [Quran 3:84]

"It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. " [Quraan 19:36]

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter ought concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him, so believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three"! Cease! (it is ) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as defender. " [4:171]


There are many many other verses about Jesus and his birth.

[DjMidgetMan]

60 Questions for the Christian http://www.clearguidance.com/article.php?id=973