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Author Topic: Islamic Knowledge versus Western ideas  (Read 4711 times)
Beth
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2006, 06:04:52 »

Abraham,

This is Economics 101.  This is knowledge of the development of societies ad religions. This is also common sense.  

If you are so sure that this is not the case, then why don't you show me where Islam is, and has always been, a poor peasant religion ...

and then ...

explain to me how the religion was financed without a lot of money...

Mosques are not cheap...especially when topped with golden domes.

~Beth
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Leyla
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2006, 02:06:19 »

This must be why pagans are so few in number. Its ignored by major political groups because they can't figure out a way to turn a profit. It has no major churches, and nobodys going to ask you for money.
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thesickmoon
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2006, 02:15:23 »

Quote from: Leyla
This must be why pagans are so few in number. Its ignored by major political groups because they can't figure out a way to turn a profit. It has no major churches, and nobodys going to ask you for money.


True! That, and every time they get something going, they start fighting against each other. Sad, really.
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"Chair-swiveling is an old and honorable avocation for any accomplished and self-respecting villainous personage."
--Ronald D. Moore, March 12, 2005
NickJW
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2006, 00:23:12 »

I'll stick to science and history instead of the Pseudoscience. Not to mention someone who was Christian, and then a White Supremecist has no intelligence in my eyes. Both, especially even considering being a Nazi, racist against your own sub-species automatically shows me that the guy who wrote that article dosen't make wise choices, is easily influenced and dosent think for himself. For him Pagan, Christian, Nazi were all mistakes, and soon Islam will be a mistake for him too. What religion will he be next week? How can you respect someone's opinion who obviously dosen't know what he's looking for?
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El-Bortukali
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2006, 00:31:38 »

I honestly don't see the point of Religions ;o
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ubiquitous
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2006, 12:04:32 »

So you will never go to heaven El-Bortukali, you infidel how dare thee ask of religious points whilst walking in these holy lands u non believer for moses jesus and muhammed are watching you BEWARE
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El-Bortukali
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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2006, 12:42:22 »

OH NOES!!!!!
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Leyla
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« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2006, 00:15:40 »

thesickmoon- Yes, there is the saying "organizing pagans is like herding cats." Orginizations have to have a higherarchy, and higherarchy what drove them out of organized religion in the first place.

The only thing we manage to pull off is all meeting together in large groups a few times a year for the festivals. (Par-tay!)  Where there's honey mead, a few good bands, and immodest dancing 'round the bonfire.

Beats the hell out of forming an army and trying to take over the earth.
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kamals
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2006, 17:03:57 »

Leyla it happens in every Religion, and every culture, and every society, to degrees. For example. Look at what the Buddhists did to their opposition in Tibet over the centuries...

Hierarchical tendencies are manifest in every social organization.
There is a pecking order among anarchists. I should know, I used to be one.

Nothing in this world is meant to last, Islam's prime was a moment, this is the myth of eternal return every traditional religion, pagan and non pagan, holds dear. The moment in time in which the sacred impregnates the mundane order with a new degree of significance. Return to this is cyclical, the Rites of Spring repeated, Samhain and Beltane, Eid al Adha, Eid al-Fitr,  Easter and Christ's annual resurrection. Decay is inevitable and in a sense beautiful and necessary, for we reside in the world of contingent.

Organized religion is no more the problem than, well, disorganized religion. Both are decays from an original impetus. Islam was never intended as an Empire. Once it became one, the best voices within Madina cried out, the Sufis, the Ahl al-Bayt. This is as it should be, for eternity is the only constant and the slide into decadence and decay reminds us of eternity.

The orgasm's twitch we seek to prolong, that brief burst of ecstasy and pleasure. Prolonged too long it would become unbearable. Pain.

The ideas involved are irrelevant, what concerns us, well me anyway, is the tendency towards hierarchical structures that is a reoccurring theme in the history of humanity.

Life today is as brutal now as it was in Muhammad's day, full stop. YOU may not see it, but there are others who have and everyday live in brutality you wouldn't believe. The degree of brutality is masked for those of us in some classes but not to others. "Good part if town" versus "Bad part of town".

Really some people have no idea what takes place 2 miles from their backyards. 2 blocks down from a college student bar, in a small dive, someones face was blown away by a gun in daytime because he laughed at a punchline that wasn't a punchline. The killers ran into the street firing guns in the air, one bullet passed through the bathroom window of a tenant in an Apartment building I manage. Kill for a thrill eh?

I was dating a girl who once lived in Russia, her boyfriend was Mafiosi like, well, most of the guys in his town. The degree of damage his body took in an everyday's work at the office (so to speak) would be ghastly for a weaker man, one supposes. There it seems the guys she knew got knifed, stabbed, ears sliced off, guts sliced open and stitched back in the nick of time, with alarming regularity.

I used to live in a neighborhood in our nations capital in which twice monthly someone got his or her brains blown onto the sidewalk. And I didn't even live in a "bad" neighborhood there smiley

The human experience is perennial, hence my general rejection of the "spirit of the age" same passions, same loves, same lusts, same hates, same hopes, same dreams - any pagan would recognize the cyclical and non linear nature of the seasons and the wheel of life as it spins. For a Muslim like me who sees how little things actually do change, I see certain teachings as having utility irrespective of the age.

What moved the Arab pagans , Christians, and Muslims of Muhammad's day moves us today. Same story, different verse and chorus. War, manipulation, violence towards woman and man alike, sexual, and otherwise, are all equally constants. Just as love, goodness, peace, and the light, healing connections, community bonds.

The same come hither smile and wink that moved me to do certain things on a certain night would have been given by a young girl in the 2nd century and done the same for her man back then.

A campfire and song is a campfire and song in 6th century Mecca, 1st century Gaul, 19th century Vermont, or 21st century Canada. The wine that caused a friend to puke on my shoes a few nights ago would have caused her great-grandmother to have the same reaction. We are the seed of our ancestors. The fire that moved in their veins moves in ours.

There is no progress. The best dreams of a progressive age devolves into the ultraviolence of it's spawn:

"So what, it's your own problem to learn to live with
Destroy us, or make us slaves
We don't care, it's not our fault that we were born too late
A screaming headache on the promised age
Killing time is appropriate...
To make a mess and f--- all the rest, we say, we say
So what?..." - Ministry, "So What"

It's the eternal return. We stand before eternity seeing the symbols and NOT SEEING THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE. We see the signs but don't see them. Every passing moment is eternal and passing at the same time.
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thesickmoon
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davethevedek
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2006, 18:15:45 »

Quote from: Leyla
thesickmoon- Yes, there is the saying "organizing pagans is like herding cats." Orginizations have to have a higherarchy, and higherarchy what drove them out of organized religion in the first place.

The only thing we manage to pull off is all meeting together in large groups a few times a year for the festivals. (Par-tay!)  Where there's honey mead, a few good bands, and immodest dancing 'round the bonfire.

Beats the hell out of forming an army and trying to take over the earth.


If we took over the earth, there'd be more parties. Better ones, too.
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"Chair-swiveling is an old and honorable avocation for any accomplished and self-respecting villainous personage."
--Ronald D. Moore, March 12, 2005
Beth
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2006, 23:52:23 »

Another great post kamals!  

I like the way your minds works--and--as an added bonus, you have the talent to say a lot, say it well, and do so in a nice, neat little package!

On this last pithy point:
Quote from: kamals
It's the eternal return. We stand before eternity seeing the symbols and NOT SEEING THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE. We see the signs but don't see them. Every passing moment is eternal and passing at the same time.


...I would like to add that sometimes I have very lucid moments where my cloths change, my immediate environment changes, even my native language changes, but...alas...the machinations of humanity are always the same. :confused:

~Beth
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Layla
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2006, 16:56:11 »

Quote from: Beth
Abraham,

There is one very simple, but extremely important fact that you are neglecting to consider.  You wrote:
Quote
This Western idea of progress, of an ideal (but impractical) society with a Destiny to make it real, is perhaps one of greatest misfortunes the West has produced, for since its genesis in the culture of ancient Greece (witness Plato, and Alexander) it has caused immense suffering and destruction.
 
If it had not been for the work of Plato, Aristotle and the goal of 'Reason' in human thought, and then ... Alexander spreading this knowledge, and Greek culture in general, throughout the Ancient Near and Middle East ... then Judaism would never have been more than a bunch of oral stories told around campfires in the desert, nor would it have ever provided the necessary root system for Christianty or Islam!  

Also, the actual religion of Islam was created and developed in great part in response to the social and political climate of the early medieval period, which was necessary for Islam to have even been conceived.  This social and political climate was, by this time, more reflective of Roman government as it had absorbed Greek and other ideas along the way.

Bottom line, for better or for worse, without Greek culture, and then Roman culture after it, none of the three major western religions would even exist...

Peace,
Beth


Actually, Islam was created. When god send down his Versus/Quran written on Leaves. And made the prophets send his message to people.
And if you want to know more about the religion. I could post more.
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Layla
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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2006, 17:00:52 »

Alot of people don't believe in what Islam has to say. But if you understand the religion you'd be suprised.

Everything that is happening now was written a LONG TIME AGO. And things that scientist's figure out now WITH technology were written A LONG TIME AGO. And there are signs given.
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Leyla
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2006, 02:20:47 »

Layla,

This is interesting. The Christians I see on TBN say that everything happening right now was written in the Bible LONG TIME AGO. And things that scientist's figure out now WITH technology were written A LONG TIME AGO in the Bible. And that there are signs given.

They say, it proves that everything written in the Bible will come to pass. And by that I mean there will be a HUGE BATTLE, that ends with the the ultimate destruction of Islam, and the Moslom peoples, (also known as "The Heathen Infidels") and that the Jews will be re-established at the chosen people. And the Christians who help the Jews will be rewarded with rulership over the earth.

Now, from what I know, your book says pretty much exactly the opposite.

It seems you are all determined to kill one another.

As a Pagan, we have a song about this:

"Onward Christian Soldiers
Onward Jewish Priests
Onward Fruits of Islam
Fight 'till you're deceased
Fight your little battles
Join the thickest fray
All for the greater glory
Of Goddess Astarte"


And what is this about the Koran floating down on leaves? I though an angel recited it to Mohamed, and he copied it down, which was a miracle because he was illiterate?
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