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Author Topic: Jesus isn't the son of god  (Read 8809 times)
exothen
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« on: April 12, 2004, 09:00:09 »

quote:
The Lost 18 Years of His Life Revealed



This says it all. The whole article is based purely on speculation and tries to make it sound like the truth. Jesus most likely stayed around Nazareth, helping his father or going to school to learn Jewish law or maybe even joined the Essenes.

John 2:51-52, "Then [Jesus] went down to Nazareth with [his parents] and was obedient to them....And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Likely a summary of his "missing" years.
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James S
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2004, 09:34:09 »

I've been hearing about such ideas for a while now, that Jesus travelled the world when he was young and learned much about the other religions.

Consider one basic down-to-earth point that is mentioned in the bible about Jesus:
He was a carpenter in a small town.

How many apprentices in the building trade do you know of even in this day that get to travel the world on some kind of journey of religious discovery?

Lots of speculation. Doesn't seem practical, but then how can we really know one way or the other?

James.
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2004, 09:34:09 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Kalonek
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2004, 11:50:30 »

quote:
Originally posted by exothen

This says it all. The whole article is based purely on speculation and tries to make it sound like the truth


I agree with this ...
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Moonburn33
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2004, 06:55:33 »

this sounds too much like someone trying to convince themselves that they won't go to the hell they were told about as a kid in sunday school.  not a very good argument in and of itself- but an interesting piece for psychoanalysis of the author.
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2004, 08:36:52 »

quote:
Originally posted by Moonburn33

[...]- but an interesting piece for psychoanalysis of the author.



ROFL ! [Cheesy] You're right !
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2004, 08:36:52 »



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lifebreath
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2004, 13:05:26 »

Dang ... I'm confused ... He travelled to India; He travelled to Egypt; He was an Essene, and lived in their community; He was crucified then was buried in Isreal by his relatives and did not resurrect; He was NOT crucified (a substitute was) and He travelled to India, lived to a ripe old age and was buried there; He married Mary Magdalene, moved on to France and had a bunch of kids and died there - His line subsequently were the Fisher Kings of France and various noble families in Europe, all actually of the bloodline of the reptillians who mated with the "daughters of men," and who must drink the menses of young virgins to obtain certain hormones that stimulate the pineal gland, in lieu of the "Starfire" of old; the reptillians are good; the reptillians are bad; Jesus was of the Serpent blood; Jesus' blood crushed the Serpent, his power and destroyed magic; Jesus was a carpenter; Jesus was not a carpenter, he was a "builder" - code for an initiate, and a Master Mason ... [:O]
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kakkarot
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2004, 15:28:17 »

lol, you make a good point, lifebreath [Wink].

~kakkarot
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2004, 20:36:24 »

for me we are all children of God, with none more important then the other.
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exothen
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2004, 01:39:23 »

John 1:12, "Yet to all who received [Christ], to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

As for Christ seemingly to have been everywhere, there are good reasons to believe some things and good reasons to not believe others; otherwise, yes, it would be confusing.
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2004, 01:55:19 »

Jesus did enter the city of Jerusalem.  The townfolk did lay down their garments and cut down palm branches before the Lord as he walked on all of that into the city.  He did have the last supper.  He did convince Judas to own up to his treasonous acts.  Pontious Pilate did convict Him and crucified Him.  Jesus did go up on the hillside, carrying the cross to his fate, and did it WILLINGLY.  He did die on the cross, was put into the tomb.  Mary Magdalene and the other Mary did go see Him, and He was not there.  He did tell the Mary's to go tell his disciples that He had risen.  And He DID rise unto Heaven and sit at the right hand of his Father, our God the Father Almighty.  It hall happened becasue I BELIEVE it happened.  My faith in Christ and belief that he did die for my sins is the reason why I shall go to Him when I die, so will the rest of my family, and hopefully, everyone else.

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borin
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2004, 17:38:16 »

Hi All,
       I fully embrace the message of christianity,lived a christian life for 51 years,and still think it is the right way for us all to live.After very extensive study however in various religions, I have reached the indesputable conclusion,that jesus and his life was a made up story,with the same theme of,born of a virgin, ability to heal the sick,son of god, nailed to a tree, or crucifix etc, as been a total fabrication, as it is in other faiths.
    To recommend one book alone that will verify this fact, look anywhere like Amazon for a copy of "The Christ Conspiracy" by Acharya S. The many eminent theologians that have put this book together,along with all the relevant cross referances leave the reader in no doubt as to its accuracy.That is if you do look into all the referances or most as I did.
    Very very sad! not that it changes what I believe in the way of there being a god. I believe now that organised religion is just a vey subtle way of controlling the masses. Look at what is happening in the world right now. Its not their rligeon that I am concerned about, its what they do in the name of their GOD.

              Love and light Borin[Smiley][Smiley][Smiley]
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lifebreath
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2004, 02:11:44 »

Cut and paste from my other post (economy of effort and thought ...):

This is the message of Christ:

"Repent, for the Kingdom of God is immanent." Turn away from sin - selfishness, anger, greed, etc ... Turn toward God. Crucify yourself, with Christ, that you may find true and eternal life, free from the shell of existence, living in the Inner Sanctum, filled with the Spirit of God. In this way, in denying the demands of the "false" self, the "worldly" or "outer" man, the "flesh", and aligning your will and being with God, true freedom is found. Freedom from the shifting elemental forces, not being ruled by them, but rather becoming the master of them, not for selfish, magical gain, but to bring heaven to earth and earth to heaven. To become, with and in Christ, a "pontiff" or bridge - a priest, in the order of Melchizedek - in order to unite heaven and earth. "What you bind on earth is bound in heaven, what you loose in earth is loosed in heaven."

Be born of Spirit - "flesh begets flesh, Spirit begets Spirit." Open withing yourself the womb of your soul, in union with Mary, the mother of Jesus, in order to give birth to Christ within yourself, and find great joy (and great sorrow, because you will percieve the pain of the world).

I agree that the "Jesus Story" is a myth, but not in the same way as some. The mythos became manifest in flesh and blood in the Person of Christ, to reveal the mystery of our existence, our insoluable bond with God, our sin of turning away, and our way back to God. "The Logos of God made flesh." A visible sign manifesting the invisable realities - THE Sacrament, revealing the sacramentality of all that is manifested as Creation.

Enter into this reality ... but pride, vanity, ego, selfishness, greed, lust - all the swirling mess of the LIE upon which we build our identities - will not enter into that Holy Realm. That is the veil that was rent in the Temple when Jesus was crucified. That is the veil that keeps our conciousness outside of the Holy of Holies within our own being, and through which Christ guides us, by virtue of his taking that heap of garbage upon Himself and making a Way through. "I am the Way..."

I have found this to be true.

Oh ... and I'm a Roman Catholic. Man ... I am SO controlled and manipulated, it's amazing!
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borin
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2004, 06:10:49 »

Hi Lifebreath,
     I umderstand and accept your reply and somewhat of your reasoning.The fact is that the Christ or Jesus figure, is a total myth. And the jesus story which is a very limited one,is a fabrication. I fail to se if you know this how you can say you are a Roman catholic man.The virgin birth,is also a total shambolic means of mass control of the catholics.Its story and belief system,and that of the Jesus figure,was in circulation at different times long before the advent of the so called christ event.It appears in several other religions including Buddhism.
    The Nag Hamadi library is proof of this along with many other sources.
    Another fabrication, is that of the devil and pergatory,you will be familiar with that threat,being a Roman catholic man which is another very successful means of controling the gullible as I used to be.
    The answers for a right and proper way to live, are within most of us from birth inherrantly!and I believe is only taken away from us by the conditioning of outside influence or fear.Holy fatwah's to name but one.

                Love and light Borin[Smiley]
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lifebreath
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2004, 15:45:59 »

Borin,

I don't think you understand what I said regarding the "myth" of Jesus. This mythos, including the various symbolic "types" - like a virgin birth, a crucified god, a resurrection, the shepherd, and a host of others - was present in the collective psyche of mankind from the beginning (whenever that was!). It was present, because it was a reality that, although not yet manifest in our linear perception of time and space, was nontheless eternally true, the echos of which reverberated through space-time from the beginning to the end - the Alpha to the Omega and all that is.

We typically percieve the drama of existence played out in a linear fashion with respect to time, with the exception of certain individuals through the ages who have been able trancend time to some degree to penetrate the greater reality of our being. These "prophets" expressed this truth of our being in archetypal symbols - through myths, rituals, etc. We connect with these symbols and stories specifically because they represent a reality that is present within us and that at some level, whether concious or subconcious, we acknowlege as true.

I believe that Jesus did indeed exist in the flesh, on this Earth, approximately 2000 years ago, and INCARNATED and MANIFESTED - revealed - to humans these archetypes. Thus, the Gospel of John begins:

"In the beginning was the Logos (Word), and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. HE WAS in the beginning, with God. All things came to be through him and apart from him nothing came to be. ...

"And the Logos became flesh (greek sarx - real flesh and blood, not a mere appearance) and dwelt (tabernacled, boothed, pitched his tent) among us. We saw his glory, the glory of the only-begotton of the Father, full of grace and truth."

The Logos was a greek philosophical term that denoted the divine Order, Reason, Logic, Wisdom, Schema or Plan, underlying all reality and from which human derived their own existance, reasone, wisdom, order and purpose. John's Gospel goes on, "What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of all humans." ... "He was in the world (the system - gr: kosmos), and the system came to be through him," and he was "the true light of every person coming into the system."

So, this divine Reason, Wisdom, Light, which indwells every human person, became incarnated in a particular way in a real person, Jesus, to reveal the truth of our existence and our relationship to God. The same truth was previously expressed in myth and symbols, not only to the Hebrews, but to many peoples. This is what the writer of the Book of Hebrews means (referring specifically to the Jewish symbols, rituals and prophecies) when he says,

"In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe."

With regards to your comments about "threats," I think you are way off base. The reality is that God encompasses not only Mercy, but Judgement (Law, Severity) as well. Even the athiestic sorcerer relies on this principle, which is reflected in all of the forces and constructs of nature, mind and soul - Force and Form, Will and Imagination, Creative energy constrained by Law.

If one, through their free will, refuses to turn to the Source of life, to the Truth of their being, to the Logos, to God; if they choose instead to live the Lie that says "I AM, AND THERE IS NONE BUT ME. I AM GOD UNTO MYSELF," the natural consequence of that is that they can never enter into Truth - the "Kindom of God," the "Holy of Holies" - where they encounter the awesome wonders and deep rivers of joy, peace, beauty and love. Rather, they condemn themselves to a realm of fantasy - an empty husk of existence, devoid of real life, love, meaning, purpose or Spirit - a life ruled by outside forces, always the slave to one's emptiness - in a word, "Hell." If one rejects Jesus, who is the embodiment of the Truth of our being, then that person is casting himself into the darkness by his own decision.

I could go on, but I need to get working!
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borin
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2004, 17:10:21 »

Hi Lifebreath,
           Well first of all,let me say how awe inspired I am by your words.I have never interpreted the meanings you give of the christ figure in that way, and thank god! it has given me back my faith somewhat.As regards my mention of threats, I was referring to the Teaching of eternal damnation, and pergatory as taught in catholicism.
     This is a fabrication of the truth as was the christ/Jesus story,
that was the point I was making. A story conjured up by ancient priests or church elders of the day,with the soul intent of ruling the masses by fear.the nearest I have come to know as my truth is in Gnosis ancient,and modern.(Seek and ye shall find me)but I must admit your truths are wonderful also, and I take onboard what you say.
     I have searched for the truth of many things all my life, and am still looking.My secondary education was given to me at a church of england all boys school in the early 1960s. My masters were mainly vicars or ministers,and believe me they were as christian in there behaviour as lucifer!! if he really was any sort of entity. there methods of control were threats from god, or extreme physical abuse.
     When ever I asked questions on experiences I began having as a young boy, such as seeing and hearing spirit beings, or my out of body experiences,I would have the words knocked out of me.
    My god, who I have no doubt at all is your god also. And I sincerely believe he she it, would not harm or punish any of creation.
    and the notion of original sin, born into each new life I have always found abominable. I now believe we are all part of the god or the one, But the way that the teachings of the masters have being tampered with I find unbearable.
      I would be very interested to find out your reasons for coming to this site, you are quite obviously a very wise person.

                  Much love and light  Borin[Smiley][Smiley]
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2004, 01:06:19 »

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borin
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2004, 07:57:12 »

Hello Shinobi,
           Thanks for your response,It is well documented, and I do believe that the Romans did crucify murderers,thieves and the like.
    My point was that it is a myth,that they crucified jesus,the son of god. In my opinion sadly,he was a concoction of a story that does pre-date christianity,and one which was deliberately used to control the masses,and one which certainly does have its roots in various
other religions.
    I am however extremely grateful to lifebreath, who in his reply to my original post,gives me a new angle on which to focus my thoughts.
     my views come about after a long time studying all religions looking for answers. The final straw was after reading "The Christ cospiracy" by Acharaya S. this book with its mass of referencing, puts an end for me on my doubt as to the truth about the existence of jesus.
     After saying that I think that the teachings of the gospels, and the christian way of living are faultless, if we could all adhere to them the world would be afar better place.
    I am personaly not strong enough to be able to do this unlike "Mother Theresa of Calcutta" who lived her life totally by these means and for one so small in physical stature, showed strenghth the likes of which I have never seen, both in body and resolute determination to the good of others.


                  Love and light Borin.[Smiley] [Smiley] [Smiley]
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exothen
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2004, 00:03:20 »

That Jesus Christ was an actual person and was crucified is nearly undisputed among scholars. The textual evdience for him and his teachings are overwhelming. Christ and Christianity are not based on the myths and mystery religions of the time.
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borin
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2004, 14:39:11 »

Hi Exothen,
      What scholars are you refering to? you need to look at all of this thread,my whole point is after many years of study,the overwhelming evidence is that Yes!!!  there were many Jesus' around 2000 years ago.But the christ figure was fabricated out of many different myths and stories, from various religions.
    One source of fact I find very informative is The Christ Conspiracy,by Acharaya S.... The references to what you call textual evidence,are exposed in this book, and the cross referencing by various eminent theolgians support the sham of the christ story.
     As little time ago as the reign of James the first, saw the bible and its contents re-written to suit the needs of the rulers of the day to control the masses.
     Please read all the thread, and perhaps the book I mention.
Believe me when I say, there is no one more upset by these facts than me to find this information. And my intention is not to seem blasphemous! or to try to convert anyone else to my findings seek for yourself.
              Love and Light Borin[Smiley] [Smiley] [Smiley]
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lifebreath
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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2004, 15:56:45 »

Borin,

Since you hold Achy S in such high regard, perhaps you will be interested in this analysis of his work:

http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_SFS.html

and this more general analysis of the so-called "Jesus Myth:"

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html

There are many links to related subtopics as well.

Good luck on your search.
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exothen
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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2004, 22:59:06 »

borin,

 
quote:
What scholars are you refering to?


Would you like an exhaustive list or will the atheist Gerd Ludemann do? As stated, he is an athiest NT scholar who believes Jesus Christ was very much a real person (I think even he claims that virtually all scholars, at least those of substance, believe that Christ was a real person). Where he obviously draws the line is at the miraculous and supernatural. But the person of Jesus Christ who developed a following eventually known as Christianity is very much a fact.

 
quote:
As little time ago as the reign of James the first, saw the bible and its contents re-written to suit the needs of the rulers of the day to control the masses.



Such is the claim with no substantiation at all. This claim completely ignores textual criticism and the fact that the earliest of NT manuscripts agree with the latest of manuscripts with very little error or change, and none that is even deemed significant to Christian theology. You are not the first to make this claim and you certainly won't be the last, but none has ever provided substantial evidence.

That there are parallels between the NT writings/Christian beliefs and the mystery religions and other cultic groups of the time goes without saying. However, it is fallacious to come to the conclusion that because there are parallels, Christ must have been an invention of a group of individuals.

Do you believe in general revelation by God?

Good links lifebreath. [Smiley]
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2004, 07:14:01 »

Hello Exothen,
            Yes I do believe in general revelation from god,using the name God as the oneness of us all and everything that is.My own life experiences leave me in no doubt,of the existence of something far greater than ourselves.
    Lifebreath, thank you for the links, I have read this information before, on my quest for the truth.I don't hold Acharya S in any more higher regard than yourself. I have read many of the references she gives in her book,and for me this was the final straw that broke the Jesus myth for me.
    I think one can go round in circles of never ending challenges of pieces of information here and there, written by someone cleverer than the one before,challenged and out-witted by cleverly selected bits of material add nauseum!!. At the end of the day, I think it really comes down to Faith!.
     Faith and belief are what I lost, after years of searching for truths as to the existence and accuracy of the virgin birth resulting in the existence of the Jesus figure.
     It all depends as far as I am concerened as to which way one is swayed by presentations of so called facts. I don't even know which way the scales go on for or against  Jesus' existence, as per the findings of the literal presentations over the last 2004 years.
    I do however still believe in the message that is in the teachings of the christian faith, as I have said in my other postings.
    As for the Christ as a person, who was God personified, or the only begotten son thereof, leaves me blank, but I would dearly love to belive otherwise.
    I do hope that I don't offend anyone here, my intention is only to put my own oppinion, and hopefuly, and I do mean hopefuly! to be proved wrong.

                 Love and lots of bright light
                      Borin[Smiley] [Smiley] [Smiley]

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exothen
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2004, 22:43:33 »

borin,

 
quote:
Yes I do believe in general revelation from god,using the name God as the oneness of us all and everything that is.


I disagree with "God as the oneness of us all and everything that is," simply because that is not and cannot be true. If you are implying pantheism, there are many problems with that view. God is both transcendent and immanent; separate from creation yet active in it.

What I meant by general revelation is that God has revealed himself in many ways through nature. This contrasts with special revelation; the Bible, for example.

That there are parallels between Christianity and other religions of the day is very interesting, but it does not follow that Christianity came from them (particularly when dates are not known for certain and Christianity could have preceded some of them). It is very plausible that virgin births and resurrections are general revelations from God to prepare people for the acceptance of the special revelation found in Christ. Similarly, the mystical power of the Christian believer through the Holy Spirit contrasts with mystical experiences found in other religions and belief systems.

I believe that all these general revelations are meant to lead one to God through Christ, but too many people get stuck on a particular belief system.

 
quote:
I do however still believe in the message that is in the teachings of the christian faith, as I have said in my other postings.



But the message is that Christ was a literal person, God incarnate, and that salvation is found through him alone. If the Christians teach that but Christ wasn't real, then why believe any teachings of the Christian faith? That would make Christians the worst liars and anything said by a supposed Christ would be meaningless.

Just a few thoughts. And no, I am certainly not offended. [Smiley]
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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2004, 16:30:48 »

Just to throw in my several senses:

I believe that there was a Jesus who was crucified and that this person was special beyond just being really smart or advanced, etc.

I don't believe in the Virgin birth.  NOt because it's impossible (I am sure it is possible in some sense, but because my intuition tells me otherwise.  I think this was added on later through both misinterpretation and misinterpretation empowered by judgements of sex and, frankly, women.

Unfortunately a hatred of sex has come down through Christianity and it makes people sigh of relief if they don't have to face the fact that Jesus was the product of sex.  But he was.  He was also, in addition to whatever else he may have been, the biological product of two people who made love.

And that is as beautiful then as it at least can be now.

I have always been offended by this purity=lack of sex in the Mary myth and it does her a disservice, because in some way it makes her even more a vessel, God just filling her up with Jesus, skipping that whole merging of Male and Female involved genetically, energetically, etc.

It's another push to keep the female element out of Christianity, however much Mary is venerated, in part she is venerated for not being and doing what she was and did.  Much of that natural to being a woman.
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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2004, 03:57:16 »

Whats wrong with blood money? The killing is already done. Using the money doesnt change that.
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