Kabbalah

[redcatherine]

Namaste I opened this post as I  am keenly interested in merkabah development and its relation to the energy body . I have witnessed the individual and group merkabah becoming more sophisticated in complexity as we develop.I would be interested in what others have seen as the shape and colours of merkabahs clairvoyantly.  

Also i would like to learn about a H on its side  shaped celestial group merkabah  ?


Links about the merkabah its development and use :
http://au.msnusers.com/AuntClairsParlorSpiritualReadingRoom/chargingyourmerkabainmeditation.msnw

btw I posted some James Hurtak  free video clips of a merkabah voyage that were posted on Astral Pulse earlier too .

[Beth]

Aunt Clair,

As you may know, symbols and words can be used for anything, and are often resurrected through the centuries and given new meaning every time they appear.  

I have studied this topic in depth and as far as I can ascertain, the "merkabah" is not what many people today are trying to make it out to be.  Whatever it is that is happening, individually or en masse, and I do not doubt your experience, I guess people can call it whatever they want, but as a word or symbol, I do not think it is necessarily one and the same with the ancient "merkabah" of rabbinical account.  The ancients chose to liken their experiences to a "flying chariot" because at the time it was the fastest mode of transportation within their realm of experience.  Today we have words such as "astral body" "group ascension" etc. and I do not think it is necessary to use ancient words to describe our experiences.   It does nothing to lend them any more credence or to make them any more esoteric. If anything, it makes them harder for people to wrap their heads around.

I guess my primary concern is that by attaching our 21st century ideas and experiences to ancient ideas and experiences, that the meanings of and intentions behind the original traditions will get lost in the popular jargon of today.  We are just beginning to be exposed to and learn about this wonderful ancient tradition, and while the texts may certainly be referring to astral experience, these texts are accounts of their experience, in their era and in their language.  

It is my opinion, and that is all--just my opinion--that we should use our own language and our own way of accounting for these experiences, in a way that our culture can understand them.  We can certainly compare our experiences to the ancient accounts, and find the similarities, but I hope that we will leave the accounts of the ancients in tact, and let those accounts remain for us, as they were for them.

I posted another reponse to this in the Merkabah Mysticism thread.

Peace, love and light to you as well,
Beth

[redcatherine]

Beth ,
I thank you for your reply and for your experienced perspective . I can only offer a few points to substantiate my own belief and can not in anyway discount your own beliefs nor should I .

1.Anthropologically : The human body has not substantially evolved since biblical times and remains very much the same anthropologically speaking . It would seem then that the human energy body and their human spiritual vehicles would also be very much the same .

2. Etymologically : even though words vary from their origin to become parts of other new words and neo-lexicons it is the still apparent connotation that allows us to understand their evolution . Thus the value of the study of Latin a dead language is still valid as it helps the student to discern the meaning of new multisyllabic words . The pronunciation and meaning does vary over time but  it evolves rather than ceases to exist . So I feel that carrying on a traditional word is valid . We still call  a nose a nose still centuries later . "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet " and a nose by any other name would still smell .

3.Pedagogically ; The mahatma  that teach humanity about the energy body and it's vehicle,  transcend human time . Their knowledge is much older than biblical age and goes back to the dawn of civilization on whatever planet that occurred . They teach us about Mohammed's reference to spheres and the merkaba  and the Egyptian Merkaba  of Isis . They teach contemporary students with clairvoyantly perceived images called sacred geometry and since the images they show us look like the ancient drawings I feel it substantiates calling them by the same names .

4. Spiritually : The astral body is not a Merkaba it is a nested energy of subtle body layers .The basic Merkaba that a human is born with can be seen clairvoyantly as a double pyramidal structure that is one color . It develops with the enlightenment of the individual over their lifetime and can be perceived to have a multicoloured stellated pryamidal structure . The merkaba is a spiritual vehicle that goes around the human energy body . There is a simple individual one we are all born with , a group one we can all manifest to travel together and our energy body develops into an integral one  later on our path .

5 : Romantically I believe that the vehicle that covers and protects  the energy body during spiritual travel should not require a new name when the ancient one has transcended so many cultures and centuries . I like it as it is . I love tradition and I do not believe we need to discard these terms . The teachers do not appear to us in jeans and a t-shirt they wear robes of their last life . I feel I will do the same when i die i will identify with this age and appear to progeny as a elderly woman of the 21st century .My grandmother's cousin , Eric Liddell's biography is called Chariots of Fire . I love the image it invokes . He was a Christian mystic , missionary and Olympic athlete . I don't suppose he ever drove a real chariot but I have seen him appear as a spirit and he does fly in a merkabah now  .

I suppose you and i will have to agree to disagree on this matter perhaps we can learn from each other anyway and come to an accord  on some other thread at another time .

Om Shanti Beth .

[Beth]

Dear Aunt Clair,

While your points certainly seem thorough, and you are obviously very well informed in this new age philosophy, your viewpoints are still without textual substantiation to the ancient mystics who originally utilized the word "merkabah." I will briefly respond to your points as made.

I can only offer a few points to substantiate my own belief and can not in anyway discount your own beliefs nor should I .

This has nothing whatsoever to do with belief.  It has everything to do with the original usage and context of the term.  

1.Anthropologically : The human body has not substantially evolved since biblical times and remains very much the same anthropologically speaking . It would seem then that the human energy body and their human spiritual vehicles would also be very much the same .

Again, I have no argument with the philosophy behind what you are saying--every word of it may be and probably is true to some extent.  I am only taking to task the use of ancient words, out of context, as descriptive elements of a new philosophy--even though the basic idea is as old as humanity itself.  To use 'merkabah' today as a proper noun attached to a new age paradigm, without corroboration to the ancient paradigm in which it was originally used, is only serving to corrupt the original context and attempt to add ancient validity to a newer cultural viewpoint.    

2. Etymologically : even though words vary from their origin to become parts of other new words and neo-lexicons it is the still apparent connotation that allows us to understand their evolution . Thus the value of the study of Latin a dead language is still valid as it helps the student to discern the meaning of new multisyllabic words . The pronunciation and meaning does vary over time but  it evolves rather than ceases to exist . So I feel that carrying on a traditional word is valid.

I am only seeking to preserve the original etymology and original context of the original tradition that used the term "merkabah."  I have no problem with carrying on a traditional word if you know for sure what the original usage and context of the word was.  Here--that is not the case.  There is also a big difference in using an etymological study to ascertain the origin of a word as well as its context and meaning, and in using an etymological study to resurrect an ancient word in order to seek similarities for new applications.  Merkabah was also not an Egyptian word.  Ka and Ba may have been words used for different spiritual bodies, but adding a Mer does not a Merkabah make.

3.Pedagogically ; The mahatma  that teach humanity about the energy body and it's vehicle,  transcend human time . Their knowledge is much older than biblical age and goes back to the dawn of civilization on whatever planet that occurred . They teach us about Mohammed's reference to spheres and the merkaba  and the Egyptian Merkaba  of Isis . They teach contemporary students with clairvoyantly perceived images called sacred geometry and since the images they show us look like the ancient drawings I feel it substantiates calling them by the same names .

I know nothing of the mahatma or of Mohammed's reference to the merkabah or of there ever being a merkabah of Isis.  "Merkabah" is a Semitic word for "chariot" based upon the word Rachab which means "to ride" or "to mount."  Merkabah was used in the mundane sense as well as connected to the metaphorical assignment of the Throne of God--the ultimate goal of the Merkabah Mystic.  The word for the "spiritual shape of each human being" was actually referred to as the tselem. This knowledge comes not from a secondhand source, from earth or from another plane, but from my own study of the original tradition involved.  If you would like to be better informed about this tradition, may I suggest that you obtain a copy of On the Mystical Shape of the Godhead: Basic Concepts in the Kabbalah, by Gershom Scholem. The whole book is very informative as well as enlightening, but it is the last chapter that deals specifically with the Tselem: The Concept of the Astral Body.

4. Spiritually : The astral body is not a Merkaba it is a nested energy of subtle body layers .The basic Merkaba that a human is born with can be seen clairvoyantly as a double pyramidal structure that is one color . It develops with the enlightenment of the individual over their lifetime and can be perceived to have a multicoloured stellated pryamidal structure . The merkaba is a spiritual vehicle that goes around the human energy body . There is a simple individual one we are all born with , a group one we can all manifest to travel together and our energy body develops into an integral one  later on our path .

This is all a summary of the new application of the term involved.  I have read this stuff before; it is not associated with the original use of the term.  
 

5 : Romantically I believe that the vehicle that covers and protects  the energy body during spiritual travel should not require a new name when the ancient one has transcended so many cultures and centuries . I like it as it is .

That is my point exactly:  this ancient word was never used in that context--romantic as that notion might be.  

The teachers do not appear to us in jeans and a t-shirt they wear robes of their last life.

That's interesting because my teachers do wear clothes from our culture, and most often they are wearing khakis and casual shirts, although there is one that doesn't have a lot to say but he is dressed to the nines!    

I suppose you and i will have to agree to disagree on this matter perhaps we can learn from each other anyway and come to an accord  on some other thread at another time.

Yes, we can always agree to disagree about our personal responses to this issue, but the fact remains that the original texts and the scholars that have spent countless years studying those texts, are the only credible sources for the original context of the Merkabah.  Clearly, that group does not include Drunvalo Melchizedek and his followers.

Peace be with you,
Beth

[Shinobi]

...

[redcatherine]

posted twice in error

[redcatherine]

Beth ,
You wrote

...Merkabah Mysticism and extends through the Middle Ages with the development of The Tree of Life and then further forward with the science of Alchemy and the creation of the Golden Dawn.

To which I responded

.... keenly interested in merkabah development and its relation to the energy body . ... i would like to learn about a H on its side shaped celestial group merkabah  

The origin of this thread has drifted from an esoteric discourse to a debate on a lexicon . This is not what I intended to become immersed in . I desired  a serious discussion of merkabah mysticism and alchemy which I will continue to seek elsewhere.But since you have decided to answer my question, to the forum, personally with a debate on another subject entirely I will reply as earnestly and politely as I might .

I have studied this topic in depth and as far as I can ascertain, the "merkabah" is not what many people today are trying to make it out to be.

However , I was clearly asking about someone's or rather anyone's  practical experience . Have you seen a merkabah ? Have you used one ? Do you project ? Have you witnessed the development of the merkabah  ? If not then please allow someone with practical experience to answer my question rather than burying me in jargon . It is valuable to read about it but it is better to actually go out and do it .

but as a word or symbol, I do not think it is necessarily one and the same with the ancient"merkabah" of rabbinical account.

“Mer” refers to a specific kind of light that was understood in Egypt only during the 18th Dynasty.It was  seen as a two counter-rotating fields of light spinning in the same space, which are generated under certain breathing.  “Ka” refers to the individual spirit’s interpretation of its particular reality.  In our particular reality, “Ba” is usually defined as the body or physical reality. http://www.execonn.com/matt/Docs/Merkaba.htm

The word merkabah and its spelling variants merkaba, merkava  ,merkavah was borrowed from Egyptian . The Rabbinical account to which you refer is preceded by the use of "Ka" and "Ba" in ancient Egyptian long before
Ezekiel wrote his prophecies . These words denote the split of the consciousness  of the afterlife personality . The Hebrew word for the wheel of spirit travel  was derived from those words and not directly
from rekeb for chariot . There has been much debate on this etymologically by scholars . I will not attempt to convince you of that here .

The ancients chose to liken their experiences to a "flying chariot" because at the time it was the fastest mode of transportation within their realm of experience.

That is not true, their chariots could not fly and one horse can go much faster and much longer unburdened by a chariot . They were writing about spiritual vehicles in the shape of things they understood . Ezekiel,for example , refers to his clairvoyant visions of a spirit
vehicle . He perceived the shape of the image . He wrote that it resembled a ( wheel , throne , saddle , chair or whatever translation you prefer ) which spirit traveled in . He did not pick the "fastest one" he
merely attempted to describe what shape he saw and scholars continue to debate about the translation of that description.

"Although in English the words "chair" and "chariot" sound somewhat alike and seem related, they apparently are not. "Chair" is derived from Old French chaire, which is derived from the Latin
cathedra, meaning seat. Whereas "chariot" is from N. French, charriote, and augmentive of char (thus, car), from the L. Latin carrum, so say the experts. But it's a different story in Hebrew. Here the two words are
closely related, one derived from the other.We can probably all agree that the mind is the "throne seat" of our being, the core of our person. Your mind is you, and the same is true of everyone else. If in Hebrew
the words chariot and seat are related, is it not logical that "mind" should be closely linked to "chariot"? http://home.earthlink.net/~tonybadillo/ark/ark4.html

Whether Ezekiel or anyone else for that matter called it a wheel ,a chariot , a saddle , a chair or a throne does not really matter to me . I want to discuss how it is used and what it changes to look like as it becomes more developed . And I will continue to use the word
Merkabah.

...Today we have words such as "astral body" "group ascension" etc. and I do not think it is necessary to use ancient words to describe our experiences.

"Astral body " is not a vehicle . It  projects within a vehicle  .Group ascension does not connote the practical experience of group projection but rather the sum result of a group's development of enlightenment
. But merkabah represents the meaning of  a energy body vehicle for the projection to spiritual realms and it does it efficiently and clearly .

t does nothing to lend them any more credence or to make them any more esoteric. If anything, it makes them harder for people to wrap their heads around.

You don't need to lend a spiritual vehicle authored by the Godhead credibility . It IS what the ancient referred to and it does exist just as they described it. It is not a dream ,a misconstrued analogy or a
hallucination .What different cultures choose to call it is irrelevant . I certainly would not call it a spirit car that sounds sophomoric and spirit train invokes the image of  a Gospel song . Spirit Plane is ambiguous and could be misconstrued to mean spiritual realm. So I will continue to call it a merkabah.

We are just beginning to be exposed to and learn about this wonderful ancient tradition, and while the texts may certainly be referring to astral experience, these texts are accounts of their
experience, in their era and in their language.

First , "Time" is an illusion . We are spirit in a human experience recalling what we have forgotten and remembering rather than learning our lessons .  We are all one universal mind .  But this lexicon of which
you speak  never went out of use . We are not recently being exposed to this but you know that already as you wrote :

through the Middle Ages with the development of The Tree of Life and then further forward with the science of Alchemy and the creation of the Golden Dawn. This is an ancient word used for an ancient practice

(my)viewpoints are still without textual substantiation to the ancient mystics who originally utilized the word "merkabah."

I do not believe that I have to substantiate my practical experience with text . I only asked on a thread , in a forum , if anyone has seen the double tiered or "H on it's side "crystal merkabah . I did not merit your derision for asking the forum (and not you personally ) for confirmation and clarification . I am not quoting new age philosophy . I am speaking directly from my spiritual alchemy practice and from my own clairvoyant experiences . But I did allude to the merkabah of Isis and the Koran's description of Mohammed's ascension on horses of fire /chariot of
fire . And you know that I alluded to them as you quoted my references . But Ezekiel 1:20 is one ancient text source you would open your mind to .

There are also many references in the biblical text that speak of the Chariot in which God, himself, came to visit the earth, as is described above in 2 Kings 2 as the Chariot of fire. The reference to “horses of fire”
is to the angelic “chariots of God” that accompany God’s Chariot which, in the early Jewish interpretive writings is acknowledged as being “Merkabah.” -http://www.jakesufopage.com/UFOarticles.html

...Merkabah was also not an Egyptian word.  Ka
and Ba may have been words used for different spiritual bodies, but adding a Mer does not a Merkabah make.

No but this is how words evolve .Words have traditionally been amalgamated by the compound use of prefix, stem and suffix.The root meaning of words helps us to understand them .The prefix  "mer" means many things in different languages including light, change and  the sea  . The Hebrew derivation does make sense both historically and spiritually irregardless of which of these meanings Mer is taken to connote .  This is a wheel for the sea of stars . This is a chariot of fire .It is a throne for the Gods. This is a chair for the consciousness .

I know nothing of the mahatma

They are the ascended masters a teaching hierarchy of spirit and universal to all humanity . Haven't you seen them  ?

This is all a summary of the new application of the term involved.  I have read this stuff before; it is not associated with the original use of the term.  

Oh but it is... and in the very branches of knowledge to which you referred and the texts written during those respective eras . The medieval Tarot,the Hermetic path , Alchemy , Golden Dawn and  The  Book of Knowledge Keys of Enoch , and New Age etc. all of these  involve the use of the term as it was historically applied .merkabah, across the centuries .

For example look to the tarot card of the chariot

Keyword: Undifferentiated Energy  -Formative symbolism: Chariot of consciousness (Merkaba), the contrary qualities of the Moon in Cancer: Freedom/Slavery as the horses/sphinxes. The sphere of storage of all undifferentiated energy, or unstructured substance.  http://www.psyche.com/psyche/tarot/trumps/chariot.html

...my teachers do wear clothes from our culture,
and most often they are wearing khakis and casual shirts, although there is one that doesn't have a lot to say but he is dressed to the nines!    

Maybe that is the problem .It is good to read ancient texts but better to practice . If you need help why not try to speak to the ancient spirit teachers ? Has that good looking man in the khakis ever seen a merkabah or recalled traveling in one ? If not what is he teaching
you ? Is he passing on his own understandings of an art he has never practiced ? My father used this saying a lot  ;  "Those that can do those that can't teach ."

Clearly, that group does not include Drunvalo Melchizedek and his followers.

I never followed this man . Do not insult me . I have not attended  his
expensive seminars nor have I learned anything from his
hyperventilation techniques . Neither do I feel one has to follow anyone or pay anything to begin enlightenment or to accomplish the Magnum Opus . The journey on the path within the heart is free and it does not require a new age guru or a scholar in good looking clothes that never did it themselves.

I do not believe I need to validate my personal experience with "textual substantiation ".I have seen energy bodies and their vehicles clairvoyantly . I have spoken with ascended masters about the energy body development . I have projected within an individual merkabah . My circle travels in a group merkabah three times a week . I can open a vortex hermetically to travel in one too . It is important to read but it is more important to do .

I am a new member and you are a moderator and yet you have digressed from the thread you authored to lead me into a protracted debate upon the use of a word which you used in your original post on this thread and to which I only made a query . If you do not want to perpetuate the use of this word then don't use it . This is not my problem. Don't take your issues out on me . But my question has not been answered and I have followed your energy into a protracted debate which has developed into a flaming discourse completely off the subject . And my crime was what ? I asked a question to the forum ,not to you personally, for confirmation and clarification . I entertained your first thrust lightheartedly but this has become injurious and tedious now .  


This link points to a modern use of the term merkava , it reminds me of our little tete a tete  :
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava/

I believed this forum was about learning ,sharing and teaching . Open your mind and your heart before you finish writing that book of yours Beth . I am certain you and your readers will be glad if you do .

I am ending my response to this thread ,Beth . You may have the last word and boot me or flame me again . I am no longer interested .  

Salam Alaikum
Catherine

[Beth]

Aunt Clair,

My goodness!  You have sufficiently put me in my place!  I hope your scathing retorts made you feel better.  If I could do nothing else to help, then perhaps letting you vent on me accomplished something.  

I have known for many years now that the world will do what it will do regardless of my input.  I apologize for trying to add anything to your vast base of knowledge; it obviously extends way past my own in this category.

I do not want you to leave the Pulse because of me, or quit seeking your answers, so I will abstain from responding to any more of your questions.  Can anyone else out there on the Pulse help this new member with her questions?

Peace,
Beth