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Author Topic: More Contradictions in Religion...  (Read 26757 times)
Jimi
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« on: January 30, 2006, 09:12:54 »

Quote from: Jonathan
You can pretty much interpret the bible to mean anything:)


Um, that's not really true. Yes there are some places of vagueness (the Book of Revelation for one), but in matters of core Christian doctrine, there is absolutely no question as to what it means.
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Jonathan
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2006, 06:54:38 »

Hello all,

Quote
Jimi wrote:
Um, that's not really true. Yes there are some places of vagueness (the Book of Revelation for one), but in matters of core Christian doctrine, there is absolutely no question as to what it means.


I agree that the book of revelations is obviously an attempt at metaphorical language.  Since you said that in matters of core Christian doctrine there is absolutely no question as to what it means, would you mind explaining what the core Christian doctrine is?  I see different people interpreting the bible in all kinds of different ways.  There is no core Christian doctrine, although they may be some points in which RIGHT NOW most major Christian denominations agree with, but that could change at any time.

The story of genesis has been found to be completely absurd my modern science. However, this was believed to be a literal narrative for many hundreds of years.  If you read the initial chapters of genesis you will se that there is no compelling reason for believing that it is anything but a literal narrative.  Since we now know that the earth was not created in seven days then it is taken to be a metaphor.  “Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.”  Clearly, the term day in genesis was meant to be understood in the same way we normally use it, as one diurnal cycle.  Most Christian denominations today believe this to be entirely metaphorical or that the term day means millions of years.

There is also the matter of the age of the earth.  This is an excellent example of the flexibility with which “the word of god” is interpreted today because of the dry language in which the genealogies are written.  The genealogies are chapters in the bible in which the lineage of important figures is tracked down; it is a record starting at Adam and Eve and ending around the year 0 (the supposed birthday of Jesus).  When you add all of these dates you get a world that is less than 10, 000 years old.  These genealogies read like a phone book; “Mat 1:2  Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren”.  If this is metaphorical then everything can be taken as metaphorical.  

I reiterate, Christianity is not copyrighted and you can pretty much interpret the bible to mean anything Smiley

Sincerely, Jonathan
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2006, 06:54:38 »

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Abraham
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2006, 04:28:47 »

Christianity was mixed with pagan beliefs of the Roman empire before the 'true christianity(which included the trinity)' was decided on by a court of scholars.
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Beth
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2006, 05:09:57 »

Judaism and Christianity did indeed arise out of paganism, and as history moved forward--even after the establishment of the Trinity--Christianity continued to absorb pagan festivals, etc., in order to convert people to the rapidly growing religion.  The same thing would hold true for Islam as well.  Since the Quran is totally dependent upon Judaism and Christianity for its foundational material, then the paganism inherent in it, is also present in Islam.

This would also, of course, include all subsequent versions of Judeo-Christian religions, including Mormonisn.  In fact, all of western and near/middle eastern religious tradition is fundamentally based upon paganism.

In total agreement with what someone else wrote:  Christianity today is NOT reflective of Christianity when it was first conceived...Mormonism and other sects of Christianity are much later developments and most people think that the 'paganism' has been stripped out of it, but, most of it has just been renamed into something else, e.g., the "Goddess" became Mary the Mother of Jesus in Catholicism, the Dionysian ritual meal of bread and wine became the eucharist/Lord's supper, the birth of the Sun God Mithra, became Jesus' birthday, etc.  

Most importantly, at the core of things, monotheism is pretty much the same as polytheism, except the stories written about the 'gods' are told as though 'all the gods' were 'one'.  It is a semantic distinction without a real difference.

~Beth
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Jimi
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2006, 08:36:26 »

Wow, a lot of nonsense here. I'm pretty open minded when it comes to belief systems and such, but damn...
Christianity and Judaism came out of paganism??? I can't stop laughing. Wow, where did you find that info? Message boards don't count.
I studied Hebrew culture/religion (pre- and post-Old Testament era) and early Christianity in college and in grad school (majored in Semetic languages and Theology) and I found no such things in my studies (which was extremely comprehensive). The beliefs of Judaism were rooted in a monotheism towards YHWH (the unspeakable name of God) and pre-date anything else we have on record. Even the Ebla tablets prove this (tablets found in the ancient Near East which confirm much of the OT/early Judaic beliefs and accounts as unique to the region and beyond...Babylonian, Assyrian, Ugaritic, and Phonecian systems were themselves variants, not precursors).
As far as "core Christian beliefs" here they are:
-There is one God and one God only who created the heavens and the earth
-Jesus is the Son of God (God in the flesh..."son" denotes "in the order of..." not kinship)
-Jesus died and paid the penalty for the sins of humanity (past, present, future) and resurrected 3 days later
That's it, my friends. It is what makes Christianity "Christianity". The Bible is NOT vague concerning these things whatsoever.
Now, something else to ponder: The Old Testament contained exactly 300 prophecies about the Messiah and Jesus fulfilled them ALL. George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros. Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.  
Many of you might be experts at astral phenomina and such, but when it comes to anything outside of it pertaining to religion, your understanding fails you. Severely. It's OK to say you aren't sure about something. No one will blame you.
"Professing to be wise they showed themselves to be fools..."
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2006, 08:36:26 »



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Beth
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2006, 16:28:26 »

Jimi,

You are obviously a believing Christian, so of course you are going to believe what you are taught, and even with your comprehensive education in Semitic languages and Hebrew culture, you learned about your religion through the "books" claimed by your religion.  You only know what you know, and have yet to learn all that you need to know. No one here blames you for that.

You are correct that there is a base Christian doctrine and that this is:
1)Belief in One God and Only One God;
2)That Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God, who was present in God from the very beginning;
3)That he came into the flesh, suffered and then died for humanity's sins, past, present and future.

Yep, that's Christian doctine in a nutshell...but it should be added that to all who believe that these things are true, they are promised that they will never taste death, but rather, will receive eternal life in Christ.

Now, as to everything else you wrote, well...that is just justifying Christian doctrine, which can be done in a lot of ways (as it has been done for over 1,800 centuries) BUT...this cannot be done without a complete dependence upon the bible to do so.  This is called a circular argument: that if the bible says its so, you can go to the bible and show me where it says that it is so.  BUT, you cannot step outside of that circle (outside of the bible) and show me where it is even claimed, let alone true, from within any other source.

Regarding your 300 prophecies:  You, I, or anyone else, could take the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and pick out all of the messianic prophecies and then write a story where 'someone' fulfilled them all.  Not a big task really, if you have studied the prophecies throughly, and you have the time and you are a good enough writer.

As to the 'odds' that you quote: "George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros."

This only proves the 'impossibility' of such a thing occurring--NOT the probablility.

Then you wrote: "I studied Hebrew culture/religion (pre- and post-Old Testament era) and early Christianity in college and in grad school (majored in Semetic languages and Theology) and I found no such things in my studies (which was extremely comprehensive)."

Congrats on all of your degrees, I know from personal experience what an achievement that is, and how hard you worked to earn them.  

But, concentrated as they were from the perspective of 'Hebrew Culture' alone, your studies were not conprehensive enough.  And depending upon where you received your education, your studies of early Christianity lacked the very backdrop within which Christianity was formed:  Who do you think the 'Gentiles' were if not primarily the Greeks and Romans?  

Judaism and Christianity arose in response to the paganism of the ancient world; the polytheistic paganism of Greek Culture, and the polytheistic Paganism of the Roman world.  During the first century, Greek culture was pervasive in all of the Mediterranean/Near Eastern World, most of which was in the process of being governed by Roman Law.  It was the Romans that made Christianity their official religion, through which they were able to control that part of the world.  As the church grew through the centuries, it absorbed all the pagan festivals and rituals that the common people had celebrated long before the advent of Christianity.  

You also wrote: "The beliefs of Judaism were rooted in a monotheism towards YHWH (the unspeakable name of God) and pre-date anything else we have on record."

Here you are wrong my friend.  You cannot provide evidence for your claim that YHWH worship pre-dates anything else we have on record.  You cannot even show me a Semitic Bible that predates the advent of Christianity.  

With the exception of a select group of books found with the Dead Sea Scrolls discovery, the first ''Bible of Record" is the Greek Septuagint (3rd-2nd centuries b.c.e.), and it was the only bible used by known Jewish scholars in and around the first century, c.e., and further, it was the Greek version of the bible that the New Testament writers used, as well as the version that most all of the earliest Church Fathers used.

In fact, there is absolutely no credible evidence that the 'Hebrew Bible' predated the Greek LXX, and the Letter of Aristes does not count.  The only thing that the Letter of Aristes provides evidence for is that Jewish propaganda was necessary to make the claim that the Hebrew Scripture pre-dated the Greek Septuagint.  The bottom line is, we can produce plenty of evidence that the Greek Bible existed during that time, but not the Hebrew Bible.

As best as we can tell, there were a scattering of Semitic books during that period, but until Jerome penned the Latin Vulgate, the Greek LXX was the primary source.  Even the Masorites, Jimi, used the Greek LXX, the Latin Vulgate and other various translations to create what we now know as the Hebrew Bible, and which--I might add--they did not create until 700 years after the advent of Christianity. If you have truly performed a comprehensive study of the Hebrew religion/Judaism/Christianity, you would already know these things.

Yet you profess that the religion of YHWY "pre-date anything else we have on record"Huh??

That is just not the case Jimi, because in addition to what I just explained, within your very own tradition it was not until the second exile that the scriptures were claimed to even be put to paper (circa 500-300 b.c.e.), and there was a great deal of 'written/known history' previous to 500 bce.  But you cannot even produce the writings of Ezra, and unless you can produce such writings, the most rational premise is to assume that they never existed.  

Since you say you are a student of religion Jimi, get out your library card and go to your university library and check out books that concern other aspects of the ancient world.  You will eventually find it interesting that while the Bible mentions the Greeks, the Persians, the Babylonians, the Sumerians, etc., that neither the Greeks, nor the Persians, nor the Babylonians, nor the Sumerians, EVER mention the Hebrews.  Considering the claimed size of ancient Israel, and the sheer scope of its claimed power, you would think that SOMEBODY in the ancient would have mentioned them.

They do not, because they never existed.  The Bible is a Storybook--not History.

I've got to go now, but do more homework Jimi, a lot more homework, and you will: first, no doubt be confused, then no doubt troubled, but then you will, no doubt, become amazed.   And...you will no longer be one of the group of which it is said, "Professing to be wise they showed themselves to be fools..."

~Beth

p.s. Be careful of 'Appealing to your own authority' via all of the degrees you have earned.  People here on the Pulse are smarter than that...in fact, there are some posters here that are very well educated---with degrees of their own---and I might add...many of those without degrees, are quite intelligent and very well read.   A 'degree' does not equal 'smarter' or 'more knowledgeable'.  In fact, you can actually learn a lot from some of us; things that can be verified through credible mainstream scholarship, without any dependence upon 'message boards'.  We give of our time and effort freely, so people who have not had the privileges that we have enjoyed, can also share in our combined knowledge base.
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2006, 18:35:12 »

waiting for jimi's reply to beth but i have a
Question
   Could jesus write?Huh?

It' only his words and inscription that can validate how special he was, and the miracles he performed.

Technology will find out conjurers these days, its very annoying they did'nt have camera's to give us raw footage of jesus's life, if there was there would be no messiah/christiannity.
I actually feel for this chap called jesus, the people who wrote the bible probably burnt  his homework.
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Beth
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2006, 19:03:33 »

Quote from: ubiquitous
...but i have a
Question
   Could jesus write?Huh?


No, because Jesus, as he is portrayed in the NT, never existed. "He" was "an idea" a "concept" that is called "salvation."  Which is what the proper name actually means, in both Semitic and Greek: in Semitic, the proper name "Yeshua" is based upon the verb yeshu, which means "to save" and is the meaning of other Semitic names such as 'Joshua' 'Isaiah' and 'Hosea'.  Likewise, the name "Jesus" in Greek is, "Iesous" which is a proper name based upon the noun sos which means 'safe' which is derived from the verb sozein, which means 'to save'.  

All of the names of the biblical characters were created, not from the names of real people, but rather from the nouns and verbs found within the known Semitic and Greek vocabularies of the day.  The writers of the bible were creating fictional stories that told of things pertaining to the human condition and experience, including, how a relationship with a deity could be, if it had been the case, and the names of the characters were then chosen based upon what role they played in those stories.

Creating and using proper names in this way was a myth-making literary tool that was used by other writers of the ancient world as well, e.g., Hesiod, Homer, Plato, as well as the storytellers from Sumeria, Babylon, Persia, and Egypt.  

The biblical writers were writing their stories with the aid of this relatively well known story-telling device, as would be expected of storytellers during that period.  

~Beth
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2006, 19:23:40 »

Well maybe religion helped with our imagination gave shakespere some material to live up to!
Nativity plays were good fun at school.
Beth-destroyer of blind belief, your a book of knowledge look forward to picking at more of your brain... like a vulture!
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Beth
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2006, 03:32:50 »

Well....ah....Ubi, I am not sure how I feel about being a 'destroyer' of anything.  I would prefer to think of myself as participating in a 'new age of enlightenment', in a 'building up of knowledge'.  But...I guess I cannot control what people think of me, so I guess that may include for some people my being a 'destroyer'. :confused:

As far as my being a 'book of knowledge', well, I don't know about that!  Somedays I feel like I don't really know that much at all!

And as far as 'picking my brain', well, I give of my time freely here at the Pulse, so if I can help you better understand something, I will gladly try.  You need to know, however, that 'by picking my brain' that I will not do your homework for you. I will share what I can, and I can give you things to think about, but know this: if the homework is not actually done by you, then you will never be able to apprehend the efficacy of your own knowledge.

Just let me know how I can help.

~Beth
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2006, 13:25:32 »

You are clever Beth! If only the people who follow christianity thought like you.
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2006, 19:28:31 »

Beth, I have a question.

In your post you keep talking about the Hebrew Bible. What are you referring to? The "Hebrew Bible" is the Torah, I thought. And that document (book, whatever) predates the Bible by a few thousand years as I understand it. Christianity's Bible took much of the Jewish material, which is only natural. Whether Judaism incorporated any Pagan rituals into their belief system I can't say. Does anyone have any examples of this?

As to Christianity, it is unarguable that many of the holidays and such are rooted in the Pagan belief system. That was done in an effort to stamp out those earlier religions.

Did you know that the Romans, Greeks, etc. did exactly the same thing, with total success, to the Druid religion? What rituals the Druids practiced were overwritten by Pagan (Roman) rituals. Their efforts were so successful that no one today has any genuine idea of what the Druids were all about. We have only what has been created by the New Age folks and what small snippets leak through from early Roman historians.

If I recall correctly, Judaism is among the first religions, though not absolutely the earliest. I think the teachings of Zoroaster hold that title. By the way, Zoroaster taught the existence of just one God, and the other precepts of that faith are remarkably similar to Christianity's core belief.

I am not picking on you. This is just a subject I love to discuss. I don't think anyone will ever get it exactly right, but we can only profit by exploring the views of others.

By the way, an interesting quote from the Genesis creation story: And "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Note the use of the plural, which is consistent through most of the Bible translations I have seen. So that means the Trinity existed before time. Or that means that there is more than one God. Or we don't have a clue what it really means!  wink

As to Mormonism, I can't say I care for their efforts to deify the human physical body. We are, or should be, so much more than that!
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Beth
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2006, 23:26:47 »

First....

Donal,

I would like to say that, truly, it is not my hand that has been clever with the bible, but rather, the writers themselves!  As my research shows, the bible is a complex web of seriously clever wordplays, puns and other language games!  These ancient writers were actually quite talented when it came to maximizing language(s) to the fullest extent.  From a literary standpoint is truly amazing!  

From a religious standpoint, however, it will not seem so clever!  But, one day, Christianity, Judaism and even Islam will have to acknowledge the way in which the bible was written and deal with all the implications...which, I should add, are ultimately unavoidable.

Second...

greatoutdoors,

You really said a lot there!   wink   Some of your questions and comments have already been addressed in the "Contradictions In Religions" thread (which I locked down due to its size), so be sure to look there as well. I will, however, attempt to address some of your issues in this new, and continued thread as well!

Thanks for contributing some excellent points!

~Beth
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2006, 03:04:34 »

The truth does not come to earth in just one person or language. The truth comes to each person when they are ready.

If one text seems to contradict another so it is in your daily life. Things do seem to contradict each other.

It is not the letter of what is written but the spirit of what is written that is important.

Keep an open mind and to not attempt to limit the ALL THAT IS by time and space or culture and language. For if you do that you limit yourself in your own understanding.

So....
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2006, 08:07:25 »

Christianity is not a true monothiesm. It doesn't have one god, but three, also Satan, and a whole host of angels and demons. It is lead by one head god, much like Zeus was the head god of Greece.

Jimi - LMAO! Crack a book.

Nearly every single myth in the old testimant is a direct copy from Babylonian/Mesopotamian originals. Adam and Eve, the Flood, everything. Read it and weep.

"Gasp! But how could this be???"

Like, duh, Father Abraham came out of "Ur of the Chaldeans." Thats Mesopotamia. The very seat of paganism.

Also, Moses, as you will recall, was raised as an Egyptian prince. He knew everything to do with Egyptian religion.  Who were the head gods of the Egyptian panthion? Isis. Ra. El.

Say it out loud:  Isis. Ra. El. Isis-Ra-El...... IS-RA-EL.
 
The only true monotheism was when Amen was briefly worshiped as the "sole god" in Ancient Egypt....that's right. AMEN. This God should be familiar to you, as you end every prayer in his name.

Bet they never pointed that out in your Christian college.
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2006, 03:10:06 »

1,800 centuries?   Ummm...  that would be 180,000 years.  

Oh well, but lets not exagerate.  OK?   shocked
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2006, 19:50:39 »

gdo,

Did I say 1,800 centuries somewhere? Which is certainly a typo possibility!  cheesy

And if I did this in the context of the development of Christianity, then of course, I meant 1,800 years, not centuries.

But words count, and if I did do this, then thanks for correcting my obvious error.

~Beth
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2006, 02:36:06 »

Leyla, conceptually there is only one creator with 7 faces.  An individuated power is not god but A power of god.  Christianity is a monotheistic religion.
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2006, 05:05:13 »

gdo and leyla,

Let's look at what is being said here and clear up a few things, for there are three distinct things being discussed in a big wad:  Monotheism, Divine Powers and Gender-Godheads.

Monotheism means: GOD is ONE; mono-theos.  

In order for God to be a real God, a perfect and complete deity, an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent deity, then God cannot ever be anything other than these things; God cannot change in any way; God must remain ONE in all ways.  This logical fact has caused serious problems for systematic theologies in all religions.

Technically speaking, Christianity is not a true monothesitic religion.

Even Judaism is not technically monotheistic given all the different names of God, e.g., El, Elah, Elohim, and Yahweh, with each name carrying a different meaning.

El is singular and masculine.  Elah is singular and feminine.  Elohim is either dual or plural. Yahweh is actually a verb, which makes deity able to create change, BUT, actually prevents that deity from being a true monotheistic--unchangeable godhead.

Either "El" or "Elah" would be a true monotheistic deity, but without being able to 'act within this world' would be of no consequence to this world. So, Yahweh had to be created so it could be present and create change within this world.

Recognizing the monotheistic problem in Judaism, Christianity could have been a true monotheistic religion by reconciling this problem of an unchanged deity that could still create change in the world, through the Greek understanding of the multivalent Logos, as found in the Gospel of John ... BUT...the subsequent theology of Roman Catholic Christianity was never able to have it's cake and eat it too.  

Instead of going with the Greek Logos idea, which allowed "everyone and everything" "to share in the essence of God," the early Catholic Church tried to make it work where Jesus was the 'only such person to be both human and divine' and therefore ended up creating the conundrum of needing a two-in-one deity. Their solution to this dualized-deity problem was to come up with the idea of 'two' in 'one substance'--the Greek word used for this 'substance' was 'homoousious', which means 'same substance'.

Moreover, it all just got crazier when considering the post-resurrection sending of the Holy Spirit, it too being a part of the godhead but separate from humanity, so they actually ended up creating the larger conundrum of needing three-in-one; making all three aspects be a part of that same 'one substance'. This they did by saying that there were three hypostases (three natures) of homoousious (one substance), i.e., the Trinity of the Godhead. This doesn't logically work in maintaining a true monotheistic concept, so the early Church thinkers finally just decided to call it a Trinity and leave the problem alone.  Believe or not, the conundrum remains unsolved even today.

Now...

While Judaism and Christianity never succeeded in being true monotheistic religions, they were very successful in being patriarchal religions.

Patriarchal Religion is just one of MANY FACES that "God has worn" through the eons.  

As a successful patriarchal religion FIRST, the above conundrum has been left alluding to different powers that have all been attributed to God, i.e., Father, Son and Holy spirit, in order for their concept of God to work.  In other words, a patriarchal religion that claims three aspects of a singular deity.

Goddess worship, which is a matriarchal religion, is another mask--and is not really a true polytheistic religion any more than Christianity is a true monotheistic religion.

Just like Christianity, it too has its powers that work through the foundation of that religion as well, e.g., different faces of the Goddess--Maiden, Mother and Crone, plus the different personalities of all the different goddesses, e.g., Isis, Astarte, Hecate, and all the others. But Goddess worship maintains that there is only ONE GODDESS.

So, whatever Christianity is with its multiple aspects of the godhead, then Goddess worship can be said to be the same thing--in the same way--only through opposing genders.  The former has a Male Godhead and the latter has a Female Godhead and each of these are the total ruler for the religion in their gendername.

The Greek pantheon, however, split between all their gods--both male and female--is truly polytheistic and is yet another mask of God.

Even Buddhism is mask of the Godhead in a genderless way.

Finally, all the powers found within all the different masks, may well be real when the masks are removed, but...the MASKS are NOT REAL.  

The many masks of God are all created by humans--for humans.  Simply put: whatever works for each one of us, well...works for each one of us. But the logical facts remain that:

A TRUE DEITY IS GENDERLESS.
 
A TRUE DEITY CANNOT EVER CHANGE, UNLESS THAT DEITY IS -- CHANGE ITSELF.
 
THIS WOULD SOLVE EVERYTHING.
 
~Beth
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2006, 12:27:46 »

Cultures are many and change.  People are many and their languages are too and they change to reflect new ideas and inventions.  That happens on many levels.  

The references to the powers of god are not god but human ideas of what those powers are.  The WORDS we use do not define god, which is why in some forms of Judaism there is the 'holy unspeakable name of god'.  ONE person using one word in one time of human history cannot possibly define god.  

In ancient times the concept of god was largely a tribal definition that held meaning for THAT tribe, at that time.  That in no means that Judaism is not monotheistic.  Monotheism goes beyond the restraints of one cultural concept or definition.  

'...within whom we live and move and have our being....'
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2006, 13:08:09 »

gdo wrote:
Quote
'...within whom we live and move and have our being....'


In order to justify monotheism for Judaism and Christianity, you have just quoted the ancient Greek philosopher Epimenides (600bce), who was subsequently quoted by Paul in the book of Acts.

Quote
Epimenides' poem Cretica is quoted twice in the New Testament. In the poem, Minos addresses Zeus thus:

They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one—
The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever,
For in thee we live and move and have our being.


The "lie" of the Cretians is that Zeus was mortal; Epimenides considered Zeus immortal.


Paul quotes it in Acts 17:28:

Quote
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28`For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, `We are his offspring.'


Epimenides is referring to Zeus, and Paul is referring to Christ.

This same idea is also found in the theology of the LOGOS, which I referenced above.  

Moreover, as a theological idea, this is more to 'pantheism' than 'monotheism'.  

~Beth

SEE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2006, 03:17:16 »

It is interesting that you use my last quote.  Does not matter.

'Argue for your limitations and you will keep them'
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Beth
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2006, 05:11:07 »

Quote from: gdo
It is interesting that you use my last quote.  Does not matter.

'Argue for your limitations and you will keep them'


Why wouldn't I consider your quote? And yes, in the context that you placed it, it matters a lot.

Would you rather I had chosen something from your previous post, like:
Quote
The references to the powers of god are not god but human ideas of what those powers are. The WORDS we use do not define god...

which basically refutes any attempt to put any 'words' to use in "defining God", including your insistent description: "mono-"...

But I won't pick your newest quote apart, but would only say that I think that it applies to how we put limitations on God as well...we get stuck with 'em...

~Beth
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2006, 03:21:48 »

Mono theism does not define god but describes a form of a religion.

Religion is definable.  Its forms come from  the properties of the cultures from whence they originated.  Most religions are tribal in origin, hence those religions use terms that are meaningful to that particular tribe and its context in place an time.  

Cultures and languages change to meet the way people in those cultures change and adapt.  

For some people  to have an idea of god, they have to isolate the powers and functions of god, just as they to other  things in their life to make them somewhat understandable and meaningful and practical.

There are many divisions or forms amongst those who follow Judaism and Christianity.  But they still do follow the concept of those forms to be monotheistic, even though the practices that they adhere to are different.

If we change the term god to some thing like, ALL THAT EVER WAS AND EVER COULD BE IN ALL SPACE AND TIME, you would still have the concept that the new name meant ONE.
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2006, 04:21:34 »

gdo...I can't argue with anything that you just said!!!  grin
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